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Re: Per capita government employment

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  • Jason P Sorens
    Hi Tim-- The Bureau of Labor Statistics (www.bls.gov) collects data on state and local government employment in their Employment and Wages statistics division.
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 22, 2008
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      Hi Tim--

      The Bureau of Labor Statistics (www.bls.gov) collects data on state
      and local government employment in their Employment and Wages
      statistics division. I'm sure their data online don't go back as far
      as 1932, and probably not even 1960, but those data might be available
      in annual print publications such as the Statistical Abstract of the
      United States.

      Best,
      Jason

      > I'm considering the idea of a per capita employment cap for government
      > employees as a way of stemming the growth of government in the Free
      State.
      > Most attacks on the seemingly unstoppable growth of government in
      the past
      > have been through either tax caps or spending caps. I'm unaware of
      any state
      > that has a government employee cap tied to state population. One of
      the data
      > points that the Free State Project used prior to voting on the state was
      > that of government employees per capita. But I need a series of
      figures, for
      > any state that has them, and/or for the federal government. That is,
      what
      > was per capital government employment prior to 1932 when Roosevelt was
      > elected? What was it in 1960 when Kennedy was elected? What was it
      in 1980
      > when Reagan was elected? What was it in 2000 when Bush was elected?
      And what
      > are the current figures?
      >
      > Instead of the spending caps and taxing caps, both of which are
      inevitably
      > breached when the government constituencies get large and loud
      enough, a per
      > capital government employment cap would prevent the constituencies
      > themselves from growing. Plus it attacks the socialists at the heart of
      > their plan, i.e. to have as many people dependent upon government
      money as
      > possible, and to constantly fight to increase that number.
      >
      > Can any direct me to where I can find out the above information?
      >
      > Timothy Condon
      > 12 Liberty Lane
      > Grafton, NH 03240
      > Email tim@...
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Gary Snyder
      Doesn t address government contracts. If the government is capped in its hiring capacity, it ll simply dole out contracts and accomplish the same thing. Gary
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 22, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Doesn't address government contracts. If the government is capped in its hiring
        capacity, it'll simply dole out contracts and accomplish the same thing.

        Gary

        Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
        NEED SOME DATA

        I'm considering the idea of a per capita employment cap for government
        employees as a way of stemming the growth of government in the Free State.
        Most attacks on the seemingly unstoppable growth of government in the past
        have been through either tax caps or spending caps. I'm unaware of any state
        that has a government employee cap tied to state population. One of the data
        points that the Free State Project used prior to voting on the state was
        that of government employees per capita. But I need a series of figures, for
        any state that has them, and/or for the federal government. That is, what
        was per capital government employment prior to 1932 when Roosevelt was
        elected? What was it in 1960 when Kennedy was elected? What was it in 1980
        when Reagan was elected? What was it in 2000 when Bush was elected? And what
        are the current figures?

        Instead of the spending caps and taxing caps, both of which are inevitably
        breached when the government constituencies get large and loud enough, a per
        capital government employment cap would prevent the constituencies
        themselves from growing. Plus it attacks the socialists at the heart of
        their plan, i.e. to have as many people dependent upon government money as
        possible, and to constantly fight to increase that number.

        Can any direct me to where I can find out the above information?

        Timothy Condon
        12 Liberty Lane
        Grafton, NH 03240
        Email tim@...

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        ---------------------------------
        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tim Condon
        That may be, Gary, but private contractors don t establish a permanent phalanx of direct, unionized government employees demanding more money and more
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 22, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          That may be, Gary, but private contractors don't establish a permanent
          phalanx of direct, unionized government employees demanding more money and
          more power...and willing to go out on the streets to make it a reality.
          ---Tim Condon



          On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Gary Snyder <gsnyder15@...> wrote:

          > Doesn't address government contracts. If the government is capped in its
          > hiring
          > capacity, it'll simply dole out contracts and accomplish the same thing.
          >
          > Gary
          >
          > Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
          > NEED SOME DATA
          >
          > I'm considering the idea of a per capita employment cap for government
          > employees as a way of stemming the growth of government in the Free State.
          > Most attacks on the seemingly unstoppable growth of government in the past
          > have been through either tax caps or spending caps. I'm unaware of any
          > state
          > that has a government employee cap tied to state population. One of the
          > data
          > points that the Free State Project used prior to voting on the state was
          > that of government employees per capita. But I need a series of figures,
          > for
          > any state that has them, and/or for the federal government. That is, what
          > was per capital government employment prior to 1932 when Roosevelt was
          > elected? What was it in 1960 when Kennedy was elected? What was it in 1980
          > when Reagan was elected? What was it in 2000 when Bush was elected? And
          > what
          > are the current figures?
          >
          > Instead of the spending caps and taxing caps, both of which are inevitably
          > breached when the government constituencies get large and loud enough, a
          > per
          > capital government employment cap would prevent the constituencies
          > themselves from growing. Plus it attacks the socialists at the heart of
          > their plan, i.e. to have as many people dependent upon government money as
          > possible, and to constantly fight to increase that number.
          >
          > Can any direct me to where I can find out the above information?
          >
          > Timothy Condon
          > 12 Liberty Lane
          > Grafton, NH 03240
          > Email tim@...
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
          > now.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gary Snyder
          Correct, their establish[ment] instead consists of an army of lobbyists demanding the same thing. Gary Tim Condon wrote: That may be,
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 23, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Correct, their "establish[ment]" instead consists of an army of lobbyists
            demanding the same thing.

            Gary

            Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
            That may be, Gary, but private contractors don't establish a permanent
            phalanx of direct, unionized government employees demanding more money and
            more power...and willing to go out on the streets to make it a reality.
            ---Tim Condon

            On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Gary Snyder <gsnyder15@...> wrote:

            > Doesn't address government contracts. If the government is capped in its
            > hiring
            > capacity, it'll simply dole out contracts and accomplish the same thing.
            >
            > Gary
            >
            > Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
            > NEED SOME DATA
            >
            > I'm considering the idea of a per capita employment cap for government
            > employees as a way of stemming the growth of government in the Free State.
            > Most attacks on the seemingly unstoppable growth of government in the past
            > have been through either tax caps or spending caps. I'm unaware of any
            > state
            > that has a government employee cap tied to state population. One of the
            > data
            > points that the Free State Project used prior to voting on the state was
            > that of government employees per capita. But I need a series of figures,
            > for
            > any state that has them, and/or for the federal government. That is, what
            > was per capital government employment prior to 1932 when Roosevelt was
            > elected? What was it in 1960 when Kennedy was elected? What was it in 1980
            > when Reagan was elected? What was it in 2000 when Bush was elected? And
            > what
            > are the current figures?
            >
            > Instead of the spending caps and taxing caps, both of which are inevitably
            > breached when the government constituencies get large and loud enough, a
            > per
            > capital government employment cap would prevent the constituencies
            > themselves from growing. Plus it attacks the socialists at the heart of
            > their plan, i.e. to have as many people dependent upon government money as
            > possible, and to constantly fight to increase that number.
            >
            > Can any direct me to where I can find out the above information?
            >
            > Timothy Condon
            > 12 Liberty Lane
            > Grafton, NH 03240
            > Email tim@...
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
            > now.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tim Condon
            (FURTHER DISCUSSION: A PER CAPITA GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE LIMITATION...) ... thing. ... Tim Condon wrote: That may be, Gary, but private
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 25, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              (FURTHER DISCUSSION: A PER CAPITA GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE LIMITATION...)

              On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Gary Snyder <gsnyder15@...> wrote:

              > Doesn't address government contracts. If the government is capped in its
              > hiring capacity, it'll simply dole out contracts and accomplish the same
              thing.
              >--- Gary


              Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
              That may be, Gary, but private contractors don't establish a
              permanent
              phalanx of direct, unionized government employees demanding more money and
              more power...and willing to go out on the streets to make it a reality.
              ---Tim Condon


              On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Gary Snyder <gsnyder15@...> wrote:

              Correct, their "establish[ment]" instead consists of an army of lobbyists
              demanding the same thing. ---Gary


              TIM CONDON NOW RESPONDS TO HIS FRIEND GARY, AT SOME LENGTH:

              Lobbyists are not unionized. Lobbyists are not "feet-on-the-street."
              Lobbyists are not the shock-troops that public employees and their unions
              are. And lobbyists tend to cluster in Washington, DC and state capitols
              only.

              In my estimation, the premier issue that has faced all human beings since
              the beginning of civilization is how to restrain some groups (usually thugs
              and criminals) from amassing ever more power, declaring themselves
              "governments," and living off of the productive efforts of all human beings
              who are not part of the resulting "government class." The Founding Fathers
              made a valiant and largely effective effort to solve this problem in 1787
              with the U.S. Constitution. It was effective for about 150 years (nothing to
              dismiss lightly), until about 1936 under Roosevelt, when the Constitutional
              plan started to unravel and the walls were breached. By 30 years later, in
              1965, the break in the walls had become critical, enabling a
              government-growth tsunami. This process of the growth of government is
              driven by one thing: Ever more people becoming dependent upon government for
              their financial sustenance. It includes welfare and social security
              recipients, but most of all what is driving it is employment at all levels
              of government, local, state, and federal. Long-term welfare recipients
              cannot be depended upon to go "into the streets" to make demands for ever
              more money. For the most part they are (thankfully) either unwilling or
              unable. Social security recipients make a huge political constituency, but
              they are overwhelmingly elderly, and also cannot be depended upon to do the
              work "on the streets" necessary to create conditions for continued political
              victories which ratchet up demand for government taxing, spending, and
              power. The single most important constituency to continually expand
              government power at all levels is through unionized (and thus disciplined
              and organized) government employees. They have the most direct interest in
              continued government growth. They are generally younger, more educated, more
              energetic, and more aware of what conditions need to be created and what
              political victories must be won to benefit themselves and their families.

              The above dynamic was exactly why Sen. Tom Daschle fought tenaciously (and
              successfully) against President George W. Bush to make sure that the latest
              huge new federal bureaucracy, "Homeland Security," would be federal
              employees instead of privately contracted companies, as was originally
              favored by Bush (probably because he was so advised by those who understood
              the problem). But Bush had no real understanding of the stakes, and probably
              no great desire to prevent further government growth anyway. His tepid
              objections were easily defeated by Daschle and the Democrats, who knew
              exactly what they were fighting for. The same dynamic is behind the
              insistent and continued Democrat demands for amnesty for illegal aliens:
              They see future welfare recipients, voters, and even feet-on-the-street
              political activists who will support the continued growth of government
              taxing and spending.

              The problem identified above is that there exists a "Government Class"
              consisting of all who look to government (at any level) for their
              sustenance. The Government Class feeds off of all who are not part of the
              class, i.e. everyone else (those who are independent, who work, who pay
              taxes, and who support their families and communities). Let's call them the
              "Working Class." The problem for the Working Class is to figure out the best
              way to stop the apparently inevitable growth of government taxing, spending,
              and hiring at all levels driven by the above dynamic. Past attempts have
              involved state constitutional tax limitations (such as Prop. 13 in
              California), statutory spending limitations (such as Gramm-Rudman, which was
              easily pushed aside), and constitutional spending limitations (such as TABOR
              plans, including that which passed in Colorado...which has easily been
              breached by the Government Class in that state).

              In short, neither constitutional nor statutory spending limitations, nor tax
              limitations, have worked. Nor have state constitutional prohibitions against
              state income taxes such as exist in Florida, Texas, and three or four other
              states. State government size and spending in those states have grown
              greatly, although not as fast as in those states that have far more taxing
              powers.

              So what are other potential solutions? What other machinery can be
              constructed to slow, or even stop and eventually reverse the accellerating
              growth of government in America?

              I would like to examine state constitutional limits on government employment
              per capita. That is, state government (and, ideally, local governments also)
              would be prohibited from having more than X number of employees for a given
              population. It could be expressed as a percentage ("the number of state
              government employees may not exceed .1% of the population") or as a ratio
              ("no level of government in this state shall have any more than 1 emloyee
              per 1,000 residents"). Of course, the Government Class would strive to lock
              in the present bloated size of government by measuring what the current
              ratio of government employees to population is. This is why I'd like to
              gather information on the ration of government employees to population in
              America in, say 1860, then 1932, then 1965, then 1980, etc. My guess is that
              a reasonable ratio would be found on one of those earlier years.

              The constitutional imposition of such a limitation would create many
              salutary effects: (1) It would deprive government of disciplined, organized,
              public employee union activists; (2) it would decrease the ostensible "need"
              for ever higher taxes; (3) it would decrease the ostensible "need" for ever
              higher government spending; (4) and it would inevitably decrease the number
              of votes for more government growth, taxing, and spending.

              Such a plan might work...or it might not. However, we know that taxing and
              spending limitations have failed, and usually can't even get passed due to
              the increasing size and power of the Government Class. Per capita employment
              limits might even be an easier "sell" because existing government employees
              would get a larger share of tax monies for themselves. In fact, the proposal
              could be coupled with a carrot for current government employees: If the per
              capital government employment limitation is passed, every government
              employee remaining could be promised a handsome raise. Generous buy-outs of
              existing government employees could also be made part of the plan, in order
              to decrease opposition and effect huge savings into the future.

              One difficulty in passing such a limit would be that existing government
              employees and their unions would create as much pain and disruption to the
              public as possible, passing it off as the natural result of a terrible
              "unworkable" idea. The solution to *that* problem might be to include a free
              hiring-and-firing proposal for government employees (since they are, after
              all, employees of a monopoly, which introduces all kinds of additional
              considerations for the protection of the public and their "customers," the
              taxpayers). Thus, government employee saboteurs and disruptors would be
              allowed to be expeditiously replaced.

              The best case scenario is this: A state constitutional limitation on number
              of government employees at the state level, the county level, the town
              level, and the school district level is put in place. The resulting decrease
              in the number of government employees causes a decrease in agitation and
              activism in favor of taxing and spending at all levels of government in the
              state. As a result, opponents of increased taxing and spending gain power,
              and manage to stem and reverse the tide. With a decrease in taxing and
              spending, the state's economy and standard of living surges. Similar
              limitations are taken up in other states, with similar salutary effects.
              Ultimately a United States Constitutional amendment is passed, with the same
              effect on the national scene that individual states have experienced, led
              by New Hampshire. America then experiences a rebirth of individual and
              economic freedom, resulting in an explosion of work, creativity, invention,
              entrepreneurialism, and growth reaching all the way through the 21st century
              and into the future.

              Call me a dreamer if you want to. That's a common epithet directed at
              Freestaters. Nevertheless, nothing else has worked up to this point. It's
              time to try something new. And it might just work. Not only work, but
              provide a template for freedom and justice into the future.

              WRITTEN BY: ---Tim Condon (Who wishes to thank Gary Snyder for making the
              objections he made above, thus stimulating further thought and sparking this
              discussion.)




              >
              > > Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
              > > NEED SOME DATA
              > >
              > > I'm considering the idea of a per capita employment cap for government
              > > employees as a way of stemming the growth of government in the Free
              > State.
              > > Most attacks on the seemingly unstoppable growth of government in the
              > past
              > > have been through either tax caps or spending caps. I'm unaware of any
              > > state that has a government employee cap tied to state population. One of
              > the
              > > data points that the Free State Project used prior to voting on the state
              > was
              > > that of government employees per capita. But I need a series of figures,
              > > for any state that has them, and/or for the federal government. That is,
              > what
              > > was per capital government employment prior to 1932 when Roosevelt was
              > > elected? What was it in 1960 when Kennedy was elected? What was it in
              > 1980
              > > when Reagan was elected? What was it in 2000 when Bush was elected? And
              > > what are the current figures?
              > >
              > > Instead of the spending caps and taxing caps, both of which are
              > inevitably
              > > breached when the government constituencies get large and loud enough, a
              > > per capita government employment cap would prevent the constituencies
              > > themselves from growing. Plus it attacks the socialists at the heart of
              > > their plan, i.e. to have as many people dependent upon government money
              > as
              > > possible, and to constantly fight to increase that number.
              > >
              > > Can any direct me to where I can find out the above information?
              > >
              > > Timothy Condon
              > > 12 Liberty Lane
              > > Grafton, NH 03240
              > > Email tim@...
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gary Snyder
              ... (snip) Tim, it doesn t matter what you call these entities, and it doesn t matter what form they take. The only thing that matters in this regard is
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 27, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                > TIM CONDON NOW RESPONDS TO HIS FRIEND GARY, AT SOME LENGTH:
                >
                > Lobbyists are not unionized. Lobbyists are not "feet-on-the- street."
                > Lobbyists are not the shock-troops that public employees and their unions
                > are. And lobbyists tend to cluster in Washington, DC and state capitols
                > only.

                (snip)

                Tim, it doesn't matter what you call these entities, and it doesn't matter what
                form they take. The only thing that matters in this regard is whether or not
                the government has the ability (the resources and power) to buy votes. If
                they have this ability, no amount of capping of its hiring capacity will dent
                government's cost and scope.

                The problem with government isn't with where and how it allocates the money
                it steals. It will always allocate that stolen money to its own end, regardless
                of whether caps on its hiring capacity are implemented. The problem is that
                it is sanctioned to steal the money in the first place. If it has (or seizes) that
                sanction, there will be no shortage of outlets, no shortage of those lining up
                for a piece of the pie.

                Gary

                Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
                (FURTHER DISCUSSION: A PER CAPITA GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE LIMITATION...)

                On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Gary Snyder <gsnyder15@...> wrote:

                > Doesn't address government contracts. If the government is capped in its
                > hiring capacity, it'll simply dole out contracts and accomplish the same
                thing.
                >--- Gary

                Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
                That may be, Gary, but private contractors don't establish a
                permanent
                phalanx of direct, unionized government employees demanding more money and
                more power...and willing to go out on the streets to make it a reality.
                ---Tim Condon

                On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Gary Snyder <gsnyder15@...> wrote:

                Correct, their "establish[ment]" instead consists of an army of lobbyists
                demanding the same thing. ---Gary

                TIM CONDON NOW RESPONDS TO HIS FRIEND GARY, AT SOME LENGTH:

                Lobbyists are not unionized. Lobbyists are not "feet-on-the-street."
                Lobbyists are not the shock-troops that public employees and their unions
                are. And lobbyists tend to cluster in Washington, DC and state capitols
                only.

                In my estimation, the premier issue that has faced all human beings since
                the beginning of civilization is how to restrain some groups (usually thugs
                and criminals) from amassing ever more power, declaring themselves
                "governments," and living off of the productive efforts of all human beings
                who are not part of the resulting "government class." The Founding Fathers
                made a valiant and largely effective effort to solve this problem in 1787
                with the U.S. Constitution. It was effective for about 150 years (nothing to
                dismiss lightly), until about 1936 under Roosevelt, when the Constitutional
                plan started to unravel and the walls were breached. By 30 years later, in
                1965, the break in the walls had become critical, enabling a
                government-growth tsunami. This process of the growth of government is
                driven by one thing: Ever more people becoming dependent upon government for
                their financial sustenance. It includes welfare and social security
                recipients, but most of all what is driving it is employment at all levels
                of government, local, state, and federal. Long-term welfare recipients
                cannot be depended upon to go "into the streets" to make demands for ever
                more money. For the most part they are (thankfully) either unwilling or
                unable. Social security recipients make a huge political constituency, but
                they are overwhelmingly elderly, and also cannot be depended upon to do the
                work "on the streets" necessary to create conditions for continued political
                victories which ratchet up demand for government taxing, spending, and
                power. The single most important constituency to continually expand
                government power at all levels is through unionized (and thus disciplined
                and organized) government employees. They have the most direct interest in
                continued government growth. They are generally younger, more educated, more
                energetic, and more aware of what conditions need to be created and what
                political victories must be won to benefit themselves and their families.

                The above dynamic was exactly why Sen. Tom Daschle fought tenaciously (and
                successfully) against President George W. Bush to make sure that the latest
                huge new federal bureaucracy, "Homeland Security," would be federal
                employees instead of privately contracted companies, as was originally
                favored by Bush (probably because he was so advised by those who understood
                the problem). But Bush had no real understanding of the stakes, and probably
                no great desire to prevent further government growth anyway. His tepid
                objections were easily defeated by Daschle and the Democrats, who knew
                exactly what they were fighting for. The same dynamic is behind the
                insistent and continued Democrat demands for amnesty for illegal aliens:
                They see future welfare recipients, voters, and even feet-on-the-street
                political activists who will support the continued growth of government
                taxing and spending.

                The problem identified above is that there exists a "Government Class"
                consisting of all who look to government (at any level) for their
                sustenance. The Government Class feeds off of all who are not part of the
                class, i.e. everyone else (those who are independent, who work, who pay
                taxes, and who support their families and communities). Let's call them the
                "Working Class." The problem for the Working Class is to figure out the best
                way to stop the apparently inevitable growth of government taxing, spending,
                and hiring at all levels driven by the above dynamic. Past attempts have
                involved state constitutional tax limitations (such as Prop. 13 in
                California), statutory spending limitations (such as Gramm-Rudman, which was
                easily pushed aside), and constitutional spending limitations (such as TABOR
                plans, including that which passed in Colorado...which has easily been
                breached by the Government Class in that state).

                In short, neither constitutional nor statutory spending limitations, nor tax
                limitations, have worked. Nor have state constitutional prohibitions against
                state income taxes such as exist in Florida, Texas, and three or four other
                states. State government size and spending in those states have grown
                greatly, although not as fast as in those states that have far more taxing
                powers.

                So what are other potential solutions? What other machinery can be
                constructed to slow, or even stop and eventually reverse the accellerating
                growth of government in America?

                I would like to examine state constitutional limits on government employment
                per capita. That is, state government (and, ideally, local governments also)
                would be prohibited from having more than X number of employees for a given
                population. It could be expressed as a percentage ("the number of state
                government employees may not exceed .1% of the population") or as a ratio
                ("no level of government in this state shall have any more than 1 emloyee
                per 1,000 residents"). Of course, the Government Class would strive to lock
                in the present bloated size of government by measuring what the current
                ratio of government employees to population is. This is why I'd like to
                gather information on the ration of government employees to population in
                America in, say 1860, then 1932, then 1965, then 1980, etc. My guess is that
                a reasonable ratio would be found on one of those earlier years.

                The constitutional imposition of such a limitation would create many
                salutary effects: (1) It would deprive government of disciplined, organized,
                public employee union activists; (2) it would decrease the ostensible "need"
                for ever higher taxes; (3) it would decrease the ostensible "need" for ever
                higher government spending; (4) and it would inevitably decrease the number
                of votes for more government growth, taxing, and spending.

                Such a plan might work...or it might not. However, we know that taxing and
                spending limitations have failed, and usually can't even get passed due to
                the increasing size and power of the Government Class. Per capita employment
                limits might even be an easier "sell" because existing government employees
                would get a larger share of tax monies for themselves. In fact, the proposal
                could be coupled with a carrot for current government employees: If the per
                capital government employment limitation is passed, every government
                employee remaining could be promised a handsome raise. Generous buy-outs of
                existing government employees could also be made part of the plan, in order
                to decrease opposition and effect huge savings into the future.

                One difficulty in passing such a limit would be that existing government
                employees and their unions would create as much pain and disruption to the
                public as possible, passing it off as the natural result of a terrible
                "unworkable" idea. The solution to *that* problem might be to include a free
                hiring-and-firing proposal for government employees (since they are, after
                all, employees of a monopoly, which introduces all kinds of additional
                considerations for the protection of the public and their "customers," the
                taxpayers). Thus, government employee saboteurs and disruptors would be
                allowed to be expeditiously replaced.

                The best case scenario is this: A state constitutional limitation on number
                of government employees at the state level, the county level, the town
                level, and the school district level is put in place. The resulting decrease
                in the number of government employees causes a decrease in agitation and
                activism in favor of taxing and spending at all levels of government in the
                state. As a result, opponents of increased taxing and spending gain power,
                and manage to stem and reverse the tide. With a decrease in taxing and
                spending, the state's economy and standard of living surges. Similar
                limitations are taken up in other states, with similar salutary effects.
                Ultimately a United States Constitutional amendment is passed, with the same
                effect on the national scene that individual states have experienced, led
                by New Hampshire. America then experiences a rebirth of individual and
                economic freedom, resulting in an explosion of work, creativity, invention,
                entrepreneurialism, and growth reaching all the way through the 21st century
                and into the future.

                Call me a dreamer if you want to. That's a common epithet directed at
                Freestaters. Nevertheless, nothing else has worked up to this point. It's
                time to try something new. And it might just work. Not only work, but
                provide a template for freedom and justice into the future.

                WRITTEN BY: ---Tim Condon (Who wishes to thank Gary Snyder for making the
                objections he made above, thus stimulating further thought and sparking this
                discussion.)

                >
                > > Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
                > > NEED SOME DATA
                > >
                > > I'm considering the idea of a per capita employment cap for government
                > > employees as a way of stemming the growth of government in the Free
                > State.
                > > Most attacks on the seemingly unstoppable growth of government in the
                > past
                > > have been through either tax caps or spending caps. I'm unaware of any
                > > state that has a government employee cap tied to state population. One of
                > the
                > > data points that the Free State Project used prior to voting on the state
                > was
                > > that of government employees per capita. But I need a series of figures,
                > > for any state that has them, and/or for the federal government. That is,
                > what
                > > was per capital government employment prior to 1932 when Roosevelt was
                > > elected? What was it in 1960 when Kennedy was elected? What was it in
                > 1980
                > > when Reagan was elected? What was it in 2000 when Bush was elected? And
                > > what are the current figures?
                > >
                > > Instead of the spending caps and taxing caps, both of which are
                > inevitably
                > > breached when the government constituencies get large and loud enough, a
                > > per capita government employment cap would prevent the constituencies
                > > themselves from growing. Plus it attacks the socialists at the heart of
                > > their plan, i.e. to have as many people dependent upon government money
                > as
                > > possible, and to constantly fight to increase that number.
                > >
                > > Can any direct me to where I can find out the above information?
                > >
                > > Timothy Condon
                > > 12 Liberty Lane
                > > Grafton, NH 03240
                > > Email tim@...
                >

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