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Re: [FSP] If New Hampshire is so 'free'...

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  • Bill
    ... Badly is a relative term. Here s a different perspective... http://freestateblogs.net/of_primary_states%2C_ron_paul_does_best_in_nh I was, needless to
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 11, 2008
      Simon Jester wrote:
      > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
      >
      > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...

      "Badly" is a relative term. Here's a different perspective...
      http://freestateblogs.net/of_primary_states%2C_ron_paul_does_best_in_nh

      I was, needless to say, fairly frustrated at this moment...
      http://bikerbillnh.blogspot.com/2008/01/nh-rejects-liberty.html

      But bottom line, there's only so much national-GOP damage that even NH
      can overcome, seems to me. The party (not alone there, of course) and
      the media don't want liberty, they don't promote liberty, and the sheep
      do what they're told, yes, even in NH. It ain't utopia yet. But the
      education effort in -- i.e., the migration of educators to -- NH has
      only just begun...
      --

      --= My life, my property, my decisions. =--
      --= BikerBill=- ©¿©¬ =--
      --= allemanse.com=- =--
      --= Who is Ron Paul =--
      --= and why does he scare the media so? =--
    • David
      ... NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the delusion that
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
        --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
        >
        > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
        >


        NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to
        get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
        delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
        did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
      • Simon Jester
        On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com ... So far he s got 21% in Washington State... http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
          On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
          (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
          >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers to make it free.

          > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest percentage
          > he received in any PRIMARY so far.

          So far he's got 21% in Washington State...

          http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
        • Jason P Sorens
          ... That s a caucus. He averages 10-15 percentage points higher in caucuses than primaries.
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
            > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
            > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers to make it free.
            >
            > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest percentage
            > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.
            >
            > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
            >

            That's a caucus. He averages 10-15 percentage points higher in
            caucuses than primaries.
          • Chris Lawless
            Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY State. ... It is time for a new direction: www.ronpaulhq.com www.flytoliberty.com
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
              Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY
              State.



              --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:

              > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
              > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
              > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers
              > to make it free.
              >
              > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest
              > percentage
              > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.
              >
              > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
              >


              It is time for a new direction:
              www.ronpaulhq.com
              www.flytoliberty.com


              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
            • Orrin Converse
              Actually, we re a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary. The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all delegates based on the
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
                Actually, we're a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary.
                The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all
                delegates based on the caucuses. The republicans elect 51% of
                delegates from the caucuses and 49% from the primary.

                On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Chris Lawless wrote:

                > Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY
                > State.
                >
                > --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:
                >
                > > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                > > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
                > > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers
                > > to make it free.
                > >
                > > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest
                > > percentage
                > > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.
                > >
                > > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...
                > >
                > > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
                > >
                >
                > It is time for a new direction:
                > www.ronpaulhq.com
                > www.flytoliberty.com
                >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                >
                >
              • Jason P Sorens
                ... Yup - the primary is Feb 19, right? Just noticed RP also got 8% in yesterday s DC primary. Not too surprising he did well there, considering it s
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                  --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Orrin Converse <converse@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, we're a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary.
                  > The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all
                  > delegates based on the caucuses. The republicans elect 51% of
                  > delegates from the caucuses and 49% from the primary.

                  Yup - the primary is Feb 19, right?

                  Just noticed RP also got 8% in yesterday's DC primary. Not too
                  surprising he did well there, considering it's think-tank land. Once
                  the official results are up, I'll have to check and see whether the DC
                  result marginally beats out the NH result.

                  Jason
                • Chris Lawless
                  considering it s ... That is what I love about NH.. it is do-tank land. It is time for a new direction: www.ronpaulhq.com www.flytoliberty.com
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                    considering it's
                    > think-tank land.
                    >
                    That is what I love about NH.. it is 'do-tank' land.


                    It is time for a new direction:
                    www.ronpaulhq.com
                    www.flytoliberty.com


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                  • John flynn
                    Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: Hey boy, you aint welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for caucasions? . By the way, for
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                      Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for caucasions?".
                      By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary" (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b. get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam mcGondel.


                      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.comFrom: converse@...: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:32:36 -0800Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...




                      Actually, we're a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary. The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all delegates based on the caucuses. The republicans elect 51% of delegates from the caucuses and 49% from the primary.On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Chris Lawless wrote:> Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY> State.>> --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:>> > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com> > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:> > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers> > to make it free.> >> > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest> > percentage> > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.> >> > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...> >> > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l> >>> It is time for a new direction:> www.ronpaulhq.com> www.flytoliberty.com>> __________________________________________________________> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >






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                    • Jason P Sorens
                      ... welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for caucasions? . ... SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the primary
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                        --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                        welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                        caucasions?".
                        > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                        SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                        (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down
                        to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b.
                        get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam
                        mcGondel.
                        >

                        Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                        time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                        people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                        anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                        reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                      • Derek Williams
                        ... If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass, then will 20,000
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                          --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dmenglert@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
                          > >
                          > > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to
                          > get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
                          > delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
                          > did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
                          >

                          If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep
                          voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass,
                          then will 20,000 liberty movers even be able to make a difference??? I
                          mean, 20k is just a small percentage of the population of Mass, and you
                          could get that many movers easily (per year) coming in from Mass. and
                          other neighboring big government New England states.

                          I recently read an article that said that New Hampshire had the fastest
                          growth rate of any state in the New England area. With this being the
                          case, do you think that the FSP movers who are liberty friendly will be
                          able to overcome the big government types who are "deluded" into
                          believing that they can move and then vote for the same things and have
                          it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP,
                          this is a legit question. I mean I want to join but if I am going to
                          pick up and move all the way across the country, I want to succeed at
                          it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ - AZ used to be a lot
                          more Libertarian but we have many Californians moving in and they are
                          changing this state too.

                          Derek
                        • Tim Condon
                          Jason s not quite right because of the form of the question. Both caucuses and what is referred to in the question as primaries are primaries or primary
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                            Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both "caucuses"
                            and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are "primaries" or
                            "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary elections, as
                            Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to vote. The
                            other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                            election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                            primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote in a GOP or
                            Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or Democrats. Other
                            states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where Republicans or
                            Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other party's
                            ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                            primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon



                            On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:

                            > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                            > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                            > caucasions?".
                            > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                            > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                            > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down
                            > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b.
                            > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam
                            > mcGondel.
                            > >
                            >
                            > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                            > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                            > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                            > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                            > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Chris Lawless
                            ... vote for the same things and have it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP, this is a legit question. I mean I want to join
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                              >
                              > I recently read an article that said that New
                              > Hampshire had the fastest
                              > growth rate of any state in the New England area.
                              > With this being the
                              > case, do you think that the FSP movers who are
                              > liberty friendly will be
                              > able to overcome the big government types who are
                              > "deluded" into believing that they can move and then
                              vote for the same things and have it turn out
                              differently? I am not being overly critical of the
                              FSP, this is a legit question. I mean I want to join
                              but if I am going to pick up and move all the way
                              across the country, I want to succeed at
                              > it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ -
                              > AZ used to be a lot more Libertarian but we have
                              many Californians moving in and they are
                              > changing this state too.
                              >
                              > Derek

                              I moved from CA to NH 2 years ago.
                              I don't think that the MA people moving in are trying
                              to change things. We hear that a lot but I don't
                              think it is true. Many of the MA people are moving to
                              Southern NH. Those areas tend to have the most
                              'conservative' reps (many on 'our' side). This tends
                              to make us wonder if people who are sick of high taxes
                              in MA are the ones moving to NH. (An old timer of NH
                              once told me.. that they complain about MAssholes but
                              it is the NJ and CT people who want the services).

                              20K is not needed with only 500 or so of us in state
                              (along with native friendlies) we are doing more and
                              more each month. About 5000 and you will see real
                              change. Remember..each FSP person who moves tends to
                              be much more active then just a 'regular' person moving.

                              It is time for a new direction:
                              www.ronpaulhq.com
                              www.flytoliberty.com


                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                            • Jon Isaac
                              A good question, Derek. I wonder if anything short of a new media with years of re-education will bring about the radical change for which most of us dream.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                                A good question, Derek. I wonder if anything short of a new media with
                                years of re-education will bring about the radical change for which
                                most of us dream.

                                On Feb 13, 2008 11:55 AM, Derek Williams <desertwolf210@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dmenglert@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
                                > > >
                                > > > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to
                                > > get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
                                > > delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
                                > > did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
                                > >
                                >
                                > If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep
                                > voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass,
                                > then will 20,000 liberty movers even be able to make a difference??? I
                                > mean, 20k is just a small percentage of the population of Mass, and you
                                > could get that many movers easily (per year) coming in from Mass. and
                                > other neighboring big government New England states.
                                >
                                > I recently read an article that said that New Hampshire had the fastest
                                > growth rate of any state in the New England area. With this being the
                                > case, do you think that the FSP movers who are liberty friendly will be
                                > able to overcome the big government types who are "deluded" into
                                > believing that they can move and then vote for the same things and have
                                > it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP,
                                > this is a legit question. I mean I want to join but if I am going to
                                > pick up and move all the way across the country, I want to succeed at
                                > it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ - AZ used to be a lot
                                > more Libertarian but we have many Californians moving in and they are
                                > changing this state too.
                                >
                                > Derek
                                >
                                >
                              • Chris Lawless
                                Other states have open primaries (such as New ... Sorry Tim one small correction. NH does not have an open primary. GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                                  Other states have "open primaries" (such as New
                                  > Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                  > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate
                                  > on the other party's
                                  > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can
                                  > vote in the party
                                  > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim
                                  > Condon
                                  >

                                  Sorry Tim one small correction.
                                  NH does not have an open primary.
                                  GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the GOP Primary and
                                  Democrats cannot.
                                  DEMS and UNDeclareds can vote in the DEM Primary and
                                  Republicans cannot.

                                  You had to have been registered in your party (or
                                  Undeclared) by Oct 12, 2007 to vote in the Jan 8, 2008 primary.

                                  It is time for a new direction:
                                  www.ronpaulhq.com
                                  www.flytoliberty.com


                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                  Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                • John flynn
                                  Thanks to all who helped to concisely clarify the answer to my queston. So, the way I see it, the changes are going to occur at a faster and more comprehensive
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                                    Thanks to all who helped to concisely clarify the answer to my queston. So, the way I see it, the changes are going to occur at a faster and more comprehensive rate AFTER the Nary Jane laws are changed to reflect less criminalization of "offenders". That will get us a lot closer, liberty-wise, in the ever-so-watchful eyes of the nation. Thus proving the collective us to be actually putting more of our money where are mouths are. Talk about increasing the attractiveness of a state to potential liberty-minded people. It may seem like a relatively trivial and small item to many, especially the non-smokers and those who have nobody in chronic pain whose lives are managed with a greater deal of quality due to their "abuse" of an herb, but to many other, worldly, sophisticated, and believers in true liberty, the issue is representative of forward thinking. Its the pot-heads and stoned out idiots that set such negativity about smoking marijuana, and luckily those idiots are far outweighed by the casual and nedicinal users of a more elevated intellect.
                                    I am very curious to see how it progresses along this term, or to see whether it "withers on the vine" so to speak, tongue in cheek. Not trying to use this as a forum, there are plenty already for that. Just trying to tie liberty, libertarianism, freedom, and intelligence together under an umbrella of sorts.
                                    That being said, I have to figure out where I put the lighter last time it was used.


                                    To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.comFrom: dreepa@...: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:42:57 -0800Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...




                                    Other states have "open primaries" (such as New> Hampshire), where Republicans or> Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate> on the other party's> ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can> vote in the party> primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim> Condon> Sorry Tim one small correction.NH does not have an open primary.GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the GOP Primary andDemocrats cannot.DEMS and UNDeclareds can vote in the DEM Primary andRepublicans cannot.You had to have been registered in your party (orUndeclared) by Oct 12, 2007 to vote in the Jan 8, 2008 primary.It is time for a new direction:www.ronpaulhq.comwww.flytoliberty.com__________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping






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                                  • Tim Condon
                                    ... This is not totally true. Although some people who move in from Mass. vote to screw up NH in the same way that Mass. is scewed up, many more of them vote
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                                      > NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to

                                      > > get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
                                      > > delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
                                      > > did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep
                                      > voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass ....


                                      This is not totally true. Although "some" people who move in from Mass. vote
                                      to screw up NH in the same way that Mass. is scewed up, many more of them
                                      vote conservative Republican. Some of the most reliable Republican districts
                                      in the state are clustered along the Mass. border. The problem now of course
                                      is that Republicans don't act like Republicans, they often act like
                                      big-government pigs at the trough. They are known as RINO's, and must be
                                      expunged from the party and from political office. This is a long-term goal
                                      of the RLCNH.

                                      > ,
                                      > ...then will 20,000 liberty movers even be able to make a difference???


                                      Yes, and here's why: 20,000 honest-to-goodness political activists---that
                                      is, people who actually go out and hit the street and get the jobs
                                      done---would have a disproportionate impact in ANY state, no matter how
                                      large. It's difficult to underestimate the impact that real committed
                                      activists can have. This has shown up already in New Hampshire in various
                                      ways, even though a distressingly large number of incoming Freestaters get
                                      here, and then just sit back to enjoy the camaraderie other other
                                      freedom-lovers. Or, worse yet, they're a certain type of typical libertarian
                                      who would rather argue abstruse issues of political philosophy, or run their
                                      mouths about how they're gonna do this and they're gonna do that when the
                                      revolution comes...but wouldn't dream of actually canvassing, making phone
                                      calls, drafting letters, getting printing done, distributing yard signs,
                                      writing speeches, driving a candidate around, attending meetings and taking
                                      notes, doing political research, finding favorable voters, poring through
                                      voting lists, poring through checklists, organizing rallies, organizing
                                      Republican clubs, and all the other million-and-one things that must be done
                                      to mount any kind of reasonable campaign. This is why the Democrats are so
                                      much more effective than Republicans; Democratic voters feed off of tax
                                      money and the size of government...the bigger the better. Thus, there are
                                      *tons* of public employee and other union members who are directly and
                                      favorably impacted by increased taxes, increased spending, and increased
                                      employee rolls at all levels of government. That is why they can be depended
                                      upon at all times to do what Freestaters are supposed to be doing at all
                                      times (but very often don't). Finally, this is why Thomas Jefferson famously
                                      observed that "the natural order of things is for liberty to give way and
                                      for government to grow." It is just the way the world works, as explained
                                      above. The Free State Project is an audacious plan birthed by Jason to
                                      *reverse* "the natural order of things." If we can get only about 5,000
                                      real-to-life on-the-street political activists in this state, we will be
                                      able to challenge the embedded big-government special interests on their own
                                      turf, head-on. If the FSP plan comes to fruition, and there are 20,000
                                      actual "real" on-the-street political activists, freedom-lovers will be able
                                      to look with pride upon the state legislature, the governorship, and
                                      ultimately the judiciary also.


                                      > I mean, 20k is just a small percentage of the population of Mass, and you
                                      > could get that many movers easily (per year) coming in from Mass. and
                                      > other neighboring big government New England states.


                                      But the 20K that may or may not be otherwise moving in aren't actively
                                      working political activists. It makes a huge difference. Most people just
                                      want to be left alone, and political activism isn't a large part of their
                                      raison d'etre. Thus, they can be convinced to vote for freedom, if the right
                                      candidates are presented and the benefits are convincingly shown. The true
                                      measure of how much impact one group or another will have is how organized
                                      and activist they are. This is why Goldwater conservatives and
                                      libertarian-conservatives are more important when moving into NH than
                                      "purist libertarians." The latter like to talk, and not much else. The
                                      former like action, and results.

                                      >
                                      > I recently read an article that said that New Hampshire had the fastest
                                      > growth rate of any state in the New England area. With this being the
                                      > case, do you think that the FSP movers who are liberty friendly will be
                                      > able to overcome the big government types who are "deluded" into
                                      > believing that they can move and then vote for the same things and have
                                      > it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP,
                                      > this is a legit question. I mean I want to join but if I am going to
                                      > pick up and move all the way across the country, I want to succeed at
                                      > it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ - AZ used to be a lot
                                      > more Libertarian but we have many Californians moving in and they are
                                      > changing this state too.


                                      The economic prospects of Massachusetts, and even more Vermont, are in the
                                      toilet because of their huge governments in relation to their population,
                                      their onerous taxes, their endless bureaucracies, their unending mandates
                                      and demands in all walks of life. The reason new Hampshire is so far
                                      superior, and why its population is growing so much, is because we are
                                      *successful*. Low taxes, small government, few restrictions, personal
                                      freedoms, property rights, etc. It is true that people from collectivist
                                      states will continue to move in and try like termites to eat away at the
                                      foundations of our success...they do that anywhere and everywhere in the
                                      world! Our job as Freestaters, and the beginning of a titanic struggle, is
                                      to make sure that "New Hampshire stays New Hampshire." This is why we're
                                      being welcomed by so many native freedom-lovers, who are far more numerous
                                      per capital in NH than in any other state. That is why New Hampshire was a
                                      good choice, and is the best place to "make our stand," and reverse
                                      Jefferson's lament regarding "the natural order of things." ---Tim Condon


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Tim Condon
                                      Chris is correct below. If you re an undeclared, you can jump temporarily into registering with either political party, to vote in that party s primary; most
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
                                        Chris is correct below. If you're an undeclared, you can "jump" temporarily
                                        into registering with either political party, to vote in that party's
                                        primary; most people then immediately jump back to undeclared. Registered
                                        Repubs and registered Dems can vote in other other party's primary. Thanx
                                        for the clarification, Chris. ---Tim C.



                                        On Feb 13, 2008 1:42 PM, Chris Lawless <dreepa@...> wrote:

                                        > Other states have "open primaries" (such as New
                                        > > Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                        > > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate
                                        > > on the other party's
                                        > > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can
                                        > > vote in the party
                                        > > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim
                                        > > Condon
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Sorry Tim one small correction.
                                        > NH does not have an open primary.
                                        > GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the GOP Primary and
                                        > Democrats cannot.
                                        > DEMS and UNDeclareds can vote in the DEM Primary and
                                        > Republicans cannot.
                                        >
                                        > You had to have been registered in your party (or
                                        > Undeclared) by Oct 12, 2007 to vote in the Jan 8, 2008 primary.
                                        >
                                        > It is time for a new direction:
                                        > www.ronpaulhq.com
                                        > www.flytoliberty.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                        > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • GTriest
                                        Jason s explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me. Now your new post has messed it up again ;-) Could you describe as succinctly as Jason? Gary T ...
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 14, 2008
                                          Jason's explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me.
                                          Now your new post has messed it up again ;-)

                                          Could you describe as succinctly as Jason?

                                          Gary T

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Tim Condon
                                          To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:44 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...


                                          Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both "caucuses"
                                          and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are "primaries" or
                                          "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary elections, as
                                          Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to vote. The
                                          other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                          election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                          primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote in a GOP or
                                          Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or Democrats. Other
                                          states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                          Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other party's
                                          ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                          primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon

                                          On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:

                                          > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                          > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                          > caucasions?".
                                          > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                          > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                          > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down
                                          > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b.
                                          > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam
                                          > mcGondel.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                          > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                          > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                          > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                          > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Jason P Sorens
                                          I m going to go out on a limb a bit and say that Tim is wrong. :-D A primary and a caucus are different types of nominating procedures. I would not
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 14, 2008
                                            I'm going to go out on a limb a bit and say that Tim is wrong. :-D A
                                            "primary" and a "caucus" are different types of nominating procedures.
                                            I would not consider a "caucus," which is essentially a meeting of
                                            party members, like a convention, to be a type of "primary," which is
                                            an election open to the general public, subject (in some cases) to
                                            party registration.

                                            Tim is right about the distinction between "open" and "closed"
                                            primaries (NH is often called "semi-closed," since independents can
                                            choose which ballot to take, but Reps and Dems must take their party's
                                            ballot), but this distinction does not apply to caucuses, which are
                                            always closed.

                                            Here's Wikipedia's article on primary elections:

                                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election

                                            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "GTriest" <garyonthenet@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Jason's explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me.
                                            > Now your new post has messed it up again ;-)
                                            >
                                            > Could you describe as succinctly as Jason?
                                            >
                                            > Gary T
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Tim Condon
                                            > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:44 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both
                                            "caucuses"
                                            > and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are
                                            "primaries" or
                                            > "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary
                                            elections, as
                                            > Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to
                                            vote. The
                                            > other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                            > election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                            > primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote
                                            in a GOP or
                                            > Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or
                                            Democrats. Other
                                            > states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where
                                            Republicans or
                                            > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other
                                            party's
                                            > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                            > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon
                                            >
                                            > On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                            > > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                            > > caucasions?".
                                            > > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                            > > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                            > > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really
                                            boils down
                                            > > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself,
                                            or b.
                                            > > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho
                                            appreciado, juam
                                            > > mcGondel.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                            > > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                            > > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                            > > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                            > > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Tim Condon
                                            Heh! I think Jason is technically right with respect to caucuses being technically different from and not exactly primaries. HOWEVER...remember all the
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 14, 2008
                                              Heh! I think Jason is technically right with respect to "caucuses" being
                                              technically different from and not exactly "primaries." HOWEVER...remember
                                              all the hoopla about "the Iowa primary"? And about the recent "Washington
                                              state primary"? Both are caucus states. Thus, in the popular idiom, they're
                                              *all* (both "voter" elections and "caucus" elections) "primaries." (I
                                              know...it's confusing, I'll grant *anyone* that.) ---Tim


                                              On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:

                                              > I'm going to go out on a limb a bit and say that Tim is wrong. :-D A
                                              > "primary" and a "caucus" are different types of nominating procedures.
                                              > I would not consider a "caucus," which is essentially a meeting of
                                              > party members, like a convention, to be a type of "primary," which is
                                              > an election open to the general public, subject (in some cases) to
                                              > party registration.
                                              >
                                              > Tim is right about the distinction between "open" and "closed"
                                              > primaries (NH is often called "semi-closed," since independents can
                                              > choose which ballot to take, but Reps and Dems must take their party's
                                              > ballot), but this distinction does not apply to caucuses, which are
                                              > always closed.
                                              >
                                              > Here's Wikipedia's article on primary elections:
                                              >
                                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election
                                              >
                                              > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "GTriest" <garyonthenet@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Jason's explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me.
                                              > > Now your new post has messed it up again ;-)
                                              > >
                                              > > Could you describe as succinctly as Jason?
                                              > >
                                              > > Gary T
                                              > >
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: Tim Condon
                                              > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:44 PM
                                              > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both
                                              > "caucuses"
                                              > > and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are
                                              > "primaries" or
                                              > > "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary
                                              > elections, as
                                              > > Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to
                                              > vote. The
                                              > > other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                              > > election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                              > > primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote
                                              > in a GOP or
                                              > > Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or
                                              > Democrats. Other
                                              > > states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where
                                              > Republicans or
                                              > > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other
                                              > party's
                                              > > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                              > > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon
                                              > >
                                              > > On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                              > > > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                              > > > caucasions?".
                                              > > > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                              > > > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                              > > > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really
                                              > boils down
                                              > > > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself,
                                              > or b.
                                              > > > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho
                                              > appreciado, juam
                                              > > > mcGondel.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                              > > > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                              > > > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                              > > > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                              > > > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • David Lubkin
                                              ... Parenthetically, I ve been wearing a Goldwater in 1964 button on my lapel since just after the 2004 election. It s been very effective as an outreach
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
                                                Tim Condon wrote:

                                                >This is why Goldwater conservatives and libertarian-conservatives
                                                >are more important when moving into NH than "purist libertarians."
                                                >The latter like to talk, and not much else. The former like action,
                                                >and results.

                                                Parenthetically, I've been wearing a "Goldwater in 1964" button on my
                                                lapel since just after the 2004 election.

                                                It's been very effective as an outreach tool. He is remembered very
                                                favorably by all political stripes. The button usually sparks a
                                                conversation about principle, integrity, personal responsibility, and
                                                limited government.


                                                -- David.
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