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Re: [FSP] If New Hampshire is so 'free'...

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  • Chris Lawless
    NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers to make it free. Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest percentage he received in any PRIMARY so far. ...
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 11, 2008
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      NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers to
      make it free.

      Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest percentage
      he received in any PRIMARY so far.


      --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:

      > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
      >
      > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised,
      > actually...
      >


      It is time for a new direction:
      www.ronpaulhq.com
      www.flytoliberty.org


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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    • Jason P Sorens
      ... I d give two answers to that: 1) He s done better in NH than any other primary. (Caucuses aren t comparable because turnout is on average 10X lower in
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 11, 2008
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        --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
        >
        > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
        >

        I'd give two answers to that:

        1) He's done better in NH than any other primary. (Caucuses aren't
        comparable because turnout is on average 10X lower in them.)

        2) NH isn't "free" really, just a bit freer than all the other states.

        You might be interested in this post-primary analysis:

        http://www.freestateproject.org/community/essays/2008_nh_primary_impact
      • Bill
        ... Badly is a relative term. Here s a different perspective... http://freestateblogs.net/of_primary_states%2C_ron_paul_does_best_in_nh I was, needless to
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 11, 2008
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          Simon Jester wrote:
          > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
          >
          > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...

          "Badly" is a relative term. Here's a different perspective...
          http://freestateblogs.net/of_primary_states%2C_ron_paul_does_best_in_nh

          I was, needless to say, fairly frustrated at this moment...
          http://bikerbillnh.blogspot.com/2008/01/nh-rejects-liberty.html

          But bottom line, there's only so much national-GOP damage that even NH
          can overcome, seems to me. The party (not alone there, of course) and
          the media don't want liberty, they don't promote liberty, and the sheep
          do what they're told, yes, even in NH. It ain't utopia yet. But the
          education effort in -- i.e., the migration of educators to -- NH has
          only just begun...
          --

          --= My life, my property, my decisions. =--
          --= BikerBill=- ©¿©¬ =--
          --= allemanse.com=- =--
          --= Who is Ron Paul =--
          --= and why does he scare the media so? =--
        • David
          ... NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the delusion that
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
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            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
            >
            > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
            >


            NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to
            get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
            delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
            did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
          • Simon Jester
            On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com ... So far he s got 21% in Washington State... http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
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              On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
              (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
              >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers to make it free.

              > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest percentage
              > he received in any PRIMARY so far.

              So far he's got 21% in Washington State...

              http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
            • Jason P Sorens
              ... That s a caucus. He averages 10-15 percentage points higher in caucuses than primaries.
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
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                --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
                > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers to make it free.
                >
                > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest percentage
                > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.
                >
                > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
                >

                That's a caucus. He averages 10-15 percentage points higher in
                caucuses than primaries.
              • Chris Lawless
                Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY State. ... It is time for a new direction: www.ronpaulhq.com www.flytoliberty.com
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
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                  Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY
                  State.



                  --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:

                  > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                  > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
                  > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers
                  > to make it free.
                  >
                  > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest
                  > percentage
                  > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.
                  >
                  > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
                  >


                  It is time for a new direction:
                  www.ronpaulhq.com
                  www.flytoliberty.com


                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                • Orrin Converse
                  Actually, we re a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary. The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all delegates based on the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 12, 2008
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                    Actually, we're a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary.
                    The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all
                    delegates based on the caucuses. The republicans elect 51% of
                    delegates from the caucuses and 49% from the primary.

                    On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Chris Lawless wrote:

                    > Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY
                    > State.
                    >
                    > --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                    > > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:
                    > > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers
                    > > to make it free.
                    > >
                    > > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest
                    > > percentage
                    > > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.
                    > >
                    > > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...
                    > >
                    > > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l
                    > >
                    >
                    > It is time for a new direction:
                    > www.ronpaulhq.com
                    > www.flytoliberty.com
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                    > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                    >
                    >
                  • Jason P Sorens
                    ... Yup - the primary is Feb 19, right? Just noticed RP also got 8% in yesterday s DC primary. Not too surprising he did well there, considering it s
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                      --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Orrin Converse <converse@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually, we're a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary.
                      > The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all
                      > delegates based on the caucuses. The republicans elect 51% of
                      > delegates from the caucuses and 49% from the primary.

                      Yup - the primary is Feb 19, right?

                      Just noticed RP also got 8% in yesterday's DC primary. Not too
                      surprising he did well there, considering it's think-tank land. Once
                      the official results are up, I'll have to check and see whether the DC
                      result marginally beats out the NH result.

                      Jason
                    • Chris Lawless
                      considering it s ... That is what I love about NH.. it is do-tank land. It is time for a new direction: www.ronpaulhq.com www.flytoliberty.com
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                        considering it's
                        > think-tank land.
                        >
                        That is what I love about NH.. it is 'do-tank' land.


                        It is time for a new direction:
                        www.ronpaulhq.com
                        www.flytoliberty.com


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                      • John flynn
                        Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: Hey boy, you aint welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for caucasions? . By the way, for
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                          Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for caucasions?".
                          By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary" (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b. get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam mcGondel.


                          To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.comFrom: converse@...: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:32:36 -0800Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...




                          Actually, we're a mixed state. We have both a caucus and a primary. The democrats ignore the results of the primary and appoint all delegates based on the caucuses. The republicans elect 51% of delegates from the caucuses and 49% from the primary.On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Chris Lawless wrote:> Washington State is a CAUCUS state not a PRIMARY> State.>> --- Simon Jester <tanstaafl@...> wrote:>> > On 2/12/2008, freestateproject@yahoogroups.com> > (freestateproject@yahoogroups.com) wrote:> > >> NH is not Free right now.... we need more movers> > to make it free.> >> > > Also Ron Paul got 8% which is the highest> > percentage> > > he received in any PRIMARY so far.> >> > So far he's got 21% in Washington State...> >> > http://tinyurl.com/3y5o5l> >>> It is time for a new direction:> www.ronpaulhq.com> www.flytoliberty.com>> __________________________________________________________> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >






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                        • Jason P Sorens
                          ... welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for caucasions? . ... SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the primary
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                            welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                            caucasions?".
                            > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                            SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                            (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down
                            to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b.
                            get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam
                            mcGondel.
                            >

                            Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                            time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                            people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                            anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                            reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                          • Derek Williams
                            ... If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass, then will 20,000
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                              --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dmenglert@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
                              > >
                              > > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to
                              > get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
                              > delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
                              > did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
                              >

                              If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep
                              voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass,
                              then will 20,000 liberty movers even be able to make a difference??? I
                              mean, 20k is just a small percentage of the population of Mass, and you
                              could get that many movers easily (per year) coming in from Mass. and
                              other neighboring big government New England states.

                              I recently read an article that said that New Hampshire had the fastest
                              growth rate of any state in the New England area. With this being the
                              case, do you think that the FSP movers who are liberty friendly will be
                              able to overcome the big government types who are "deluded" into
                              believing that they can move and then vote for the same things and have
                              it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP,
                              this is a legit question. I mean I want to join but if I am going to
                              pick up and move all the way across the country, I want to succeed at
                              it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ - AZ used to be a lot
                              more Libertarian but we have many Californians moving in and they are
                              changing this state too.

                              Derek
                            • Tim Condon
                              Jason s not quite right because of the form of the question. Both caucuses and what is referred to in the question as primaries are primaries or primary
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both "caucuses"
                                and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are "primaries" or
                                "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary elections, as
                                Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to vote. The
                                other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote in a GOP or
                                Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or Democrats. Other
                                states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other party's
                                ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon



                                On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:

                                > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                > caucasions?".
                                > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down
                                > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b.
                                > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam
                                > mcGondel.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Chris Lawless
                                ... vote for the same things and have it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP, this is a legit question. I mean I want to join
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                  >
                                  > I recently read an article that said that New
                                  > Hampshire had the fastest
                                  > growth rate of any state in the New England area.
                                  > With this being the
                                  > case, do you think that the FSP movers who are
                                  > liberty friendly will be
                                  > able to overcome the big government types who are
                                  > "deluded" into believing that they can move and then
                                  vote for the same things and have it turn out
                                  differently? I am not being overly critical of the
                                  FSP, this is a legit question. I mean I want to join
                                  but if I am going to pick up and move all the way
                                  across the country, I want to succeed at
                                  > it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ -
                                  > AZ used to be a lot more Libertarian but we have
                                  many Californians moving in and they are
                                  > changing this state too.
                                  >
                                  > Derek

                                  I moved from CA to NH 2 years ago.
                                  I don't think that the MA people moving in are trying
                                  to change things. We hear that a lot but I don't
                                  think it is true. Many of the MA people are moving to
                                  Southern NH. Those areas tend to have the most
                                  'conservative' reps (many on 'our' side). This tends
                                  to make us wonder if people who are sick of high taxes
                                  in MA are the ones moving to NH. (An old timer of NH
                                  once told me.. that they complain about MAssholes but
                                  it is the NJ and CT people who want the services).

                                  20K is not needed with only 500 or so of us in state
                                  (along with native friendlies) we are doing more and
                                  more each month. About 5000 and you will see real
                                  change. Remember..each FSP person who moves tends to
                                  be much more active then just a 'regular' person moving.

                                  It is time for a new direction:
                                  www.ronpaulhq.com
                                  www.flytoliberty.com


                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                • Jon Isaac
                                  A good question, Derek. I wonder if anything short of a new media with years of re-education will bring about the radical change for which most of us dream.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                    A good question, Derek. I wonder if anything short of a new media with
                                    years of re-education will bring about the radical change for which
                                    most of us dream.

                                    On Feb 13, 2008 11:55 AM, Derek Williams <desertwolf210@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dmenglert@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Simon Jester <tanstaafl@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > why did Ron Paul do so badly there?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Not trolling, I'm just curious... and surprised, actually...
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to
                                    > > get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
                                    > > delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
                                    > > did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep
                                    > voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass,
                                    > then will 20,000 liberty movers even be able to make a difference??? I
                                    > mean, 20k is just a small percentage of the population of Mass, and you
                                    > could get that many movers easily (per year) coming in from Mass. and
                                    > other neighboring big government New England states.
                                    >
                                    > I recently read an article that said that New Hampshire had the fastest
                                    > growth rate of any state in the New England area. With this being the
                                    > case, do you think that the FSP movers who are liberty friendly will be
                                    > able to overcome the big government types who are "deluded" into
                                    > believing that they can move and then vote for the same things and have
                                    > it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP,
                                    > this is a legit question. I mean I want to join but if I am going to
                                    > pick up and move all the way across the country, I want to succeed at
                                    > it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ - AZ used to be a lot
                                    > more Libertarian but we have many Californians moving in and they are
                                    > changing this state too.
                                    >
                                    > Derek
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Chris Lawless
                                    Other states have open primaries (such as New ... Sorry Tim one small correction. NH does not have an open primary. GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                      Other states have "open primaries" (such as New
                                      > Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                      > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate
                                      > on the other party's
                                      > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can
                                      > vote in the party
                                      > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim
                                      > Condon
                                      >

                                      Sorry Tim one small correction.
                                      NH does not have an open primary.
                                      GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the GOP Primary and
                                      Democrats cannot.
                                      DEMS and UNDeclareds can vote in the DEM Primary and
                                      Republicans cannot.

                                      You had to have been registered in your party (or
                                      Undeclared) by Oct 12, 2007 to vote in the Jan 8, 2008 primary.

                                      It is time for a new direction:
                                      www.ronpaulhq.com
                                      www.flytoliberty.com


                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                    • John flynn
                                      Thanks to all who helped to concisely clarify the answer to my queston. So, the way I see it, the changes are going to occur at a faster and more comprehensive
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                        Thanks to all who helped to concisely clarify the answer to my queston. So, the way I see it, the changes are going to occur at a faster and more comprehensive rate AFTER the Nary Jane laws are changed to reflect less criminalization of "offenders". That will get us a lot closer, liberty-wise, in the ever-so-watchful eyes of the nation. Thus proving the collective us to be actually putting more of our money where are mouths are. Talk about increasing the attractiveness of a state to potential liberty-minded people. It may seem like a relatively trivial and small item to many, especially the non-smokers and those who have nobody in chronic pain whose lives are managed with a greater deal of quality due to their "abuse" of an herb, but to many other, worldly, sophisticated, and believers in true liberty, the issue is representative of forward thinking. Its the pot-heads and stoned out idiots that set such negativity about smoking marijuana, and luckily those idiots are far outweighed by the casual and nedicinal users of a more elevated intellect.
                                        I am very curious to see how it progresses along this term, or to see whether it "withers on the vine" so to speak, tongue in cheek. Not trying to use this as a forum, there are plenty already for that. Just trying to tie liberty, libertarianism, freedom, and intelligence together under an umbrella of sorts.
                                        That being said, I have to figure out where I put the lighter last time it was used.


                                        To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.comFrom: dreepa@...: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:42:57 -0800Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...




                                        Other states have "open primaries" (such as New> Hampshire), where Republicans or> Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate> on the other party's> ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can> vote in the party> primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim> Condon> Sorry Tim one small correction.NH does not have an open primary.GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the GOP Primary andDemocrats cannot.DEMS and UNDeclareds can vote in the DEM Primary andRepublicans cannot.You had to have been registered in your party (orUndeclared) by Oct 12, 2007 to vote in the Jan 8, 2008 primary.It is time for a new direction:www.ronpaulhq.comwww.flytoliberty.com__________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping






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                                      • Tim Condon
                                        ... This is not totally true. Although some people who move in from Mass. vote to screw up NH in the same way that Mass. is scewed up, many more of them vote
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                          > NH has been slowly invaded by people from Massachusetts, who wanted to

                                          > > get away from the Bay State, but unfortunately suffered from the
                                          > > delusion that supporting the same policies and types of people they
                                          > > did in Massachusetts would yield them different results.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > If NH is being slowly invaded by people from Mass., and they keep
                                          > voting for the same old stuff they were trying to escape from in Mass ....


                                          This is not totally true. Although "some" people who move in from Mass. vote
                                          to screw up NH in the same way that Mass. is scewed up, many more of them
                                          vote conservative Republican. Some of the most reliable Republican districts
                                          in the state are clustered along the Mass. border. The problem now of course
                                          is that Republicans don't act like Republicans, they often act like
                                          big-government pigs at the trough. They are known as RINO's, and must be
                                          expunged from the party and from political office. This is a long-term goal
                                          of the RLCNH.

                                          > ,
                                          > ...then will 20,000 liberty movers even be able to make a difference???


                                          Yes, and here's why: 20,000 honest-to-goodness political activists---that
                                          is, people who actually go out and hit the street and get the jobs
                                          done---would have a disproportionate impact in ANY state, no matter how
                                          large. It's difficult to underestimate the impact that real committed
                                          activists can have. This has shown up already in New Hampshire in various
                                          ways, even though a distressingly large number of incoming Freestaters get
                                          here, and then just sit back to enjoy the camaraderie other other
                                          freedom-lovers. Or, worse yet, they're a certain type of typical libertarian
                                          who would rather argue abstruse issues of political philosophy, or run their
                                          mouths about how they're gonna do this and they're gonna do that when the
                                          revolution comes...but wouldn't dream of actually canvassing, making phone
                                          calls, drafting letters, getting printing done, distributing yard signs,
                                          writing speeches, driving a candidate around, attending meetings and taking
                                          notes, doing political research, finding favorable voters, poring through
                                          voting lists, poring through checklists, organizing rallies, organizing
                                          Republican clubs, and all the other million-and-one things that must be done
                                          to mount any kind of reasonable campaign. This is why the Democrats are so
                                          much more effective than Republicans; Democratic voters feed off of tax
                                          money and the size of government...the bigger the better. Thus, there are
                                          *tons* of public employee and other union members who are directly and
                                          favorably impacted by increased taxes, increased spending, and increased
                                          employee rolls at all levels of government. That is why they can be depended
                                          upon at all times to do what Freestaters are supposed to be doing at all
                                          times (but very often don't). Finally, this is why Thomas Jefferson famously
                                          observed that "the natural order of things is for liberty to give way and
                                          for government to grow." It is just the way the world works, as explained
                                          above. The Free State Project is an audacious plan birthed by Jason to
                                          *reverse* "the natural order of things." If we can get only about 5,000
                                          real-to-life on-the-street political activists in this state, we will be
                                          able to challenge the embedded big-government special interests on their own
                                          turf, head-on. If the FSP plan comes to fruition, and there are 20,000
                                          actual "real" on-the-street political activists, freedom-lovers will be able
                                          to look with pride upon the state legislature, the governorship, and
                                          ultimately the judiciary also.


                                          > I mean, 20k is just a small percentage of the population of Mass, and you
                                          > could get that many movers easily (per year) coming in from Mass. and
                                          > other neighboring big government New England states.


                                          But the 20K that may or may not be otherwise moving in aren't actively
                                          working political activists. It makes a huge difference. Most people just
                                          want to be left alone, and political activism isn't a large part of their
                                          raison d'etre. Thus, they can be convinced to vote for freedom, if the right
                                          candidates are presented and the benefits are convincingly shown. The true
                                          measure of how much impact one group or another will have is how organized
                                          and activist they are. This is why Goldwater conservatives and
                                          libertarian-conservatives are more important when moving into NH than
                                          "purist libertarians." The latter like to talk, and not much else. The
                                          former like action, and results.

                                          >
                                          > I recently read an article that said that New Hampshire had the fastest
                                          > growth rate of any state in the New England area. With this being the
                                          > case, do you think that the FSP movers who are liberty friendly will be
                                          > able to overcome the big government types who are "deluded" into
                                          > believing that they can move and then vote for the same things and have
                                          > it turn out differently? I am not being overly critical of the FSP,
                                          > this is a legit question. I mean I want to join but if I am going to
                                          > pick up and move all the way across the country, I want to succeed at
                                          > it, not just move and find out its the same as AZ - AZ used to be a lot
                                          > more Libertarian but we have many Californians moving in and they are
                                          > changing this state too.


                                          The economic prospects of Massachusetts, and even more Vermont, are in the
                                          toilet because of their huge governments in relation to their population,
                                          their onerous taxes, their endless bureaucracies, their unending mandates
                                          and demands in all walks of life. The reason new Hampshire is so far
                                          superior, and why its population is growing so much, is because we are
                                          *successful*. Low taxes, small government, few restrictions, personal
                                          freedoms, property rights, etc. It is true that people from collectivist
                                          states will continue to move in and try like termites to eat away at the
                                          foundations of our success...they do that anywhere and everywhere in the
                                          world! Our job as Freestaters, and the beginning of a titanic struggle, is
                                          to make sure that "New Hampshire stays New Hampshire." This is why we're
                                          being welcomed by so many native freedom-lovers, who are far more numerous
                                          per capital in NH than in any other state. That is why New Hampshire was a
                                          good choice, and is the best place to "make our stand," and reverse
                                          Jefferson's lament regarding "the natural order of things." ---Tim Condon


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Tim Condon
                                          Chris is correct below. If you re an undeclared, you can jump temporarily into registering with either political party, to vote in that party s primary; most
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 13, 2008
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                                            Chris is correct below. If you're an undeclared, you can "jump" temporarily
                                            into registering with either political party, to vote in that party's
                                            primary; most people then immediately jump back to undeclared. Registered
                                            Repubs and registered Dems can vote in other other party's primary. Thanx
                                            for the clarification, Chris. ---Tim C.



                                            On Feb 13, 2008 1:42 PM, Chris Lawless <dreepa@...> wrote:

                                            > Other states have "open primaries" (such as New
                                            > > Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                            > > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate
                                            > > on the other party's
                                            > > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can
                                            > > vote in the party
                                            > > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim
                                            > > Condon
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Sorry Tim one small correction.
                                            > NH does not have an open primary.
                                            > GOPers and UNDeclareds can vote in the GOP Primary and
                                            > Democrats cannot.
                                            > DEMS and UNDeclareds can vote in the DEM Primary and
                                            > Republicans cannot.
                                            >
                                            > You had to have been registered in your party (or
                                            > Undeclared) by Oct 12, 2007 to vote in the Jan 8, 2008 primary.
                                            >
                                            > It is time for a new direction:
                                            > www.ronpaulhq.com
                                            > www.flytoliberty.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                            > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • GTriest
                                            Jason s explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me. Now your new post has messed it up again ;-) Could you describe as succinctly as Jason? Gary T ...
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 14, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Jason's explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me.
                                              Now your new post has messed it up again ;-)

                                              Could you describe as succinctly as Jason?

                                              Gary T

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Tim Condon
                                              To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:44 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...


                                              Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both "caucuses"
                                              and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are "primaries" or
                                              "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary elections, as
                                              Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to vote. The
                                              other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                              election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                              primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote in a GOP or
                                              Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or Democrats. Other
                                              states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where Republicans or
                                              Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other party's
                                              ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                              primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon

                                              On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:

                                              > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                              > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                              > caucasions?".
                                              > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                              > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                              > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really boils down
                                              > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself, or b.
                                              > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho appreciado, juam
                                              > mcGondel.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                              > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                              > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                              > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                              > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Jason P Sorens
                                              I m going to go out on a limb a bit and say that Tim is wrong. :-D A primary and a caucus are different types of nominating procedures. I would not
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 14, 2008
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                                                I'm going to go out on a limb a bit and say that Tim is wrong. :-D A
                                                "primary" and a "caucus" are different types of nominating procedures.
                                                I would not consider a "caucus," which is essentially a meeting of
                                                party members, like a convention, to be a type of "primary," which is
                                                an election open to the general public, subject (in some cases) to
                                                party registration.

                                                Tim is right about the distinction between "open" and "closed"
                                                primaries (NH is often called "semi-closed," since independents can
                                                choose which ballot to take, but Reps and Dems must take their party's
                                                ballot), but this distinction does not apply to caucuses, which are
                                                always closed.

                                                Here's Wikipedia's article on primary elections:

                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election

                                                --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "GTriest" <garyonthenet@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Jason's explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me.
                                                > Now your new post has messed it up again ;-)
                                                >
                                                > Could you describe as succinctly as Jason?
                                                >
                                                > Gary T
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: Tim Condon
                                                > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:44 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both
                                                "caucuses"
                                                > and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are
                                                "primaries" or
                                                > "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary
                                                elections, as
                                                > Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to
                                                vote. The
                                                > other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                                > election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                                > primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote
                                                in a GOP or
                                                > Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or
                                                Democrats. Other
                                                > states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where
                                                Republicans or
                                                > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other
                                                party's
                                                > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                                > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon
                                                >
                                                > On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@>
                                                wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                                > > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                                > > caucasions?".
                                                > > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                                > > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                                > > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really
                                                boils down
                                                > > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself,
                                                or b.
                                                > > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho
                                                appreciado, juam
                                                > > mcGondel.
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                                > > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                                > > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                                > > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                                > > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • Tim Condon
                                                Heh! I think Jason is technically right with respect to caucuses being technically different from and not exactly primaries. HOWEVER...remember all the
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 14, 2008
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                                                  Heh! I think Jason is technically right with respect to "caucuses" being
                                                  technically different from and not exactly "primaries." HOWEVER...remember
                                                  all the hoopla about "the Iowa primary"? And about the recent "Washington
                                                  state primary"? Both are caucus states. Thus, in the popular idiom, they're
                                                  *all* (both "voter" elections and "caucus" elections) "primaries." (I
                                                  know...it's confusing, I'll grant *anyone* that.) ---Tim


                                                  On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:

                                                  > I'm going to go out on a limb a bit and say that Tim is wrong. :-D A
                                                  > "primary" and a "caucus" are different types of nominating procedures.
                                                  > I would not consider a "caucus," which is essentially a meeting of
                                                  > party members, like a convention, to be a type of "primary," which is
                                                  > an election open to the general public, subject (in some cases) to
                                                  > party registration.
                                                  >
                                                  > Tim is right about the distinction between "open" and "closed"
                                                  > primaries (NH is often called "semi-closed," since independents can
                                                  > choose which ballot to take, but Reps and Dems must take their party's
                                                  > ballot), but this distinction does not apply to caucuses, which are
                                                  > always closed.
                                                  >
                                                  > Here's Wikipedia's article on primary elections:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "GTriest" <garyonthenet@...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Jason's explanation cleared things up immeasurably for me.
                                                  > > Now your new post has messed it up again ;-)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Could you describe as succinctly as Jason?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Gary T
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > From: Tim Condon
                                                  > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:44 PM
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: If New Hampshire is so 'free'...
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Jason's not quite right because of the form of the question. Both
                                                  > "caucuses"
                                                  > > and what is referred to in the question as "primaries" are
                                                  > "primaries" or
                                                  > > "primary elections." Caucuses are one way to hold primary
                                                  > elections, as
                                                  > > Jason explains below; they are "primaries" which use caucuses to
                                                  > vote. The
                                                  > > other way to hold a "primary election" is the more widely used type of
                                                  > > election where all registered voters who want to vote can vote in the
                                                  > > primary election. In some states the only voters allowed to vote
                                                  > in a GOP or
                                                  > > Democratic primary are people registered as Republicans or
                                                  > Democrats. Other
                                                  > > states have "open primaries" (such as New Hampshire), where
                                                  > Republicans or
                                                  > > Democrats can "cross over" and vote for a candidate on the other
                                                  > party's
                                                  > > ballot. In Florida only registered Dems or GOPs can vote in the party
                                                  > > primaries. Other states have different rules. --Tim Condon
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Feb 13, 2008 11:42 AM, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John flynn <jteacher1@>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong sketch: "Hey boy, you aint
                                                  > > > welcome heah. Didnt anyone ever tell ye that this caucus is for
                                                  > > > caucasions?".
                                                  > > > > By the way, for my nephew's sake, would someone please state in
                                                  > > > SIMPLE, even overly-simplistic would do, language what the "primary"
                                                  > > > (sic) distinction between a "caucus" and a "primary" really
                                                  > boils down
                                                  > > > to? Thanks in advance for not a. suggesting I look it up myself,
                                                  > or b.
                                                  > > > get into a long-winded treatise on the subject/ Mucho
                                                  > appreciado, juam
                                                  > > > mcGondel.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Caucuses work by getting everyone together in a room at a particular
                                                  > > > time and voting. Primaries are more like regular elections in that
                                                  > > > people can go to the polls at their own convenience, they vote
                                                  > > > anonymously, and votes are tabulated after the polls close. For that
                                                  > > > reason, primaries have much higher turnout than caucuses.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • David Lubkin
                                                  ... Parenthetically, I ve been wearing a Goldwater in 1964 button on my lapel since just after the 2004 election. It s been very effective as an outreach
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Feb 19, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Tim Condon wrote:

                                                    >This is why Goldwater conservatives and libertarian-conservatives
                                                    >are more important when moving into NH than "purist libertarians."
                                                    >The latter like to talk, and not much else. The former like action,
                                                    >and results.

                                                    Parenthetically, I've been wearing a "Goldwater in 1964" button on my
                                                    lapel since just after the 2004 election.

                                                    It's been very effective as an outreach tool. He is remembered very
                                                    favorably by all political stripes. The button usually sparks a
                                                    conversation about principle, integrity, personal responsibility, and
                                                    limited government.


                                                    -- David.
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