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Re: [FSP] Re: [porcfest2008] Gunstock?

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  • Tim Condon
    ... I didn t hear about that, and am sorry to hear it now. I ve heard other stories about Rogers: drunk campers peeing on Free ... You d have to talk to
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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      On 9/4/07, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Condon" <tim@...> wrote:
      >
      > > No way. I've been at every Rogers FSP party since before the choice
      > of NH as the Free State, and *never* was told "you can't go in there
      > unless
      > you pay."
      > > But Michele and I were told that at Gunstock.
      >
      > I wasn't at Gunstock, but at the first 3 PorcFests I was definitely
      > told I had to pay to get in, because I wasn't staying at Rogers. Also,
      > the owner called the cops on some of our guests, including Michael
      > Badnarik, & had their cars towed because they didn't pay.


      I didn't hear about that, and am sorry to hear it now.

      I've heard other stories about Rogers: drunk campers peeing on Free
      > Staters' tents...


      You'd have to talk to you-know-who about that, ahem.

      ...a bunch of white supremacists hassling Free Staters, & so on.


      Never heard about that either, nor was it anything I experienced. With that
      said, I'd much rather be hassled by white-supermacists than state security
      personnel. The former is easier to dispose of than the latter..

      Probably, neither place is ideal, but why not give Gunstock 1 more
      > chance? There's always '09 to return to Rogers if it still doesn't
      > work all that well.
      > Jason


      Well, I think Rogers was a good venue, but it's also true that we haven't
      really thought "outside the box" (the box being "it's got to be south of the
      notches"). I'd be perfectly willing to consider any other venues.

      On still the *other* hand...maybe the problem arises because we see the
      PorcFest in different lights. The group that ran it this year (and is
      apparently running it next year) sees it as a recruiting/educating/touring
      opportunity, and the talks, scheduling, bus tours, etc. reflect that
      priority. I have always seen the PorcFest (since I initiated the first one
      immediately after we chose the Free State) as a full-blown celebration, a
      party, if you will, with music, dancing, excessive alcohol intake (although
      *I* never peed on anyone's tent), a loud, boozy "Circle of Liberty" where
      everyone is importuned to have their say, gun shooting (albeit not while
      peeing on anyone's tent), and other various outre activities (I'd like to
      see a defiant, liberty-oriented poetry-reading myself)...but also with
      speechifying, vendors, info opportunities, etc. The main thing is bringing
      together "the folks." The most important aim at any PorcFest is for current
      and potential Porcupines to get together, mix, meet, and mingle. The
      Gunstock venue seemed to militate against that. Rogers is perfect for
      it...as long as we don't have problems with the owner, and prevent people
      from peeing in the wrong venues.... ---Tim Condon


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Helwig
      I never went to Rogers. I m one of those who drove up to Gunstock on the days I wanted to be there. I liked being able to do that. Another reason in favor of
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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        I never went to Rogers. I'm one of those who drove up to Gunstock on the
        days I wanted to be there. I liked being able to do that.

        Another reason in favor of Gunstock is that there are several businesses
        nearby that supposedly accept Liberty dollars.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill
        ... I m certainly not married to Gunstock (although I do like the skiing there), and if there were another venue in southern NH that met the myriad criteria
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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          Tim Condon wrote:
          > Nevertheless, I once again repeat my
          > original question, which has never been answered: "Is it the consensus on
          > this list that PorcFest 2008 be held at Gunstock?" ---Tim Condon

          I'm certainly not married to Gunstock (although I do like the skiing
          there), and if there were another venue in southern NH that met the
          myriad criteria (Mt Sunapee, or Crotched or Ragged Mtns, maybe?), give
          it a shot. The fact that the debate seems already largely limited to 2
          such venues even state-wide, however, clearly speaks to the difficulty
          of that search.

          But personally, I wouldn't be doing day trips to Lancaster again, and I
          have little doubt that the distance, including from the airport, has a
          not insignificant impact on many out-of-staters' attendance decisions,
          as well. And it's highly unlikely that most potential attendees would
          have known about any of your complaints /before/ the first Gunstock
          PorcFest, so those complaints are equally unlikely to have had any
          appreciable effect on this year's attendance, as I inferred (accurately
          or not) from one of your bullet points. Also, obeying the posted
          "rules," I paid to get into (at least) the first PorcFest at Roger's...
          --

          --= My life, my property, my decisions. =--
          --= BikerBill=- ©¿©¬ =--
          --= allemanse.com=- =--
          --= Who is Ron Paul =--
          --= and why does he scare the media so? =--
        • David Mincin
          Having been to all the events, even Escape to NH a couple comments Liked the convience, and the state tours were great. The speaking events in the main
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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            Having been to all the events, even Escape to NH a couple comments

            Liked the convience, and the state tours were great.

            The speaking events in the main building were poorly attended,
            and from what I understand so were most of the day events on
            site. A couple I went to had no people at all. Having to have to
            drive to get anywhere in a timely manner does not seem like
            camping to me.

            Many old friends, as well as newbie's I saw for a second and never
            saw again. Where were they? I thought PorcFest was about meeting
            and sharing some laughs with the new folks, Sharing our experiences
            in NH, and letting the folks know in a personal way what a terrific place
            NH is. I found that missing for the most part at Gunstock.

            Don't get me wrong...We had a great time Friday and Saturday night
            partying at Joel and Amy's site, but at most only a 1/2 dozen of the
            new folks found there way by. Rather defeats the purpose of the event,
            but was preferable to driving around in the dark, looking for something
            to do.

            I would suggest you look for a different venue, because quite frankly, my
            thought is, Gunstock was just not that great.

            Dave








            On 9/4/07, Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 9/4/07, Jason P Sorens <jsorens@... <jsorens%40buffalo.edu>>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com<freestateproject%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "Tim Condon" <tim@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > No way. I've been at every Rogers FSP party since before the choice
            > > of NH as the Free State, and *never* was told "you can't go in there
            > > unless
            > > you pay."
            > > > But Michele and I were told that at Gunstock.
            > >
            > > I wasn't at Gunstock, but at the first 3 PorcFests I was definitely
            > > told I had to pay to get in, because I wasn't staying at Rogers. Also,
            > > the owner called the cops on some of our guests, including Michael
            > > Badnarik, & had their cars towed because they didn't pay.
            >
            > I didn't hear about that, and am sorry to hear it now.
            >
            > I've heard other stories about Rogers: drunk campers peeing on Free
            > > Staters' tents...
            >
            > You'd have to talk to you-know-who about that, ahem.
            >
            > ...a bunch of white supremacists hassling Free Staters, & so on.
            >
            > Never heard about that either, nor was it anything I experienced. With
            > that
            > said, I'd much rather be hassled by white-supermacists than state security
            > personnel. The former is easier to dispose of than the latter..
            >
            > Probably, neither place is ideal, but why not give Gunstock 1 more
            > > chance? There's always '09 to return to Rogers if it still doesn't
            > > work all that well.
            > > Jason
            >
            > Well, I think Rogers was a good venue, but it's also true that we haven't
            > really thought "outside the box" (the box being "it's got to be south of
            > the
            > notches"). I'd be perfectly willing to consider any other venues.
            >
            > On still the *other* hand...maybe the problem arises because we see the
            > PorcFest in different lights. The group that ran it this year (and is
            > apparently running it next year) sees it as a recruiting/educating/touring
            > opportunity, and the talks, scheduling, bus tours, etc. reflect that
            > priority. I have always seen the PorcFest (since I initiated the first one
            > immediately after we chose the Free State) as a full-blown celebration, a
            > party, if you will, with music, dancing, excessive alcohol intake
            > (although
            > *I* never peed on anyone's tent), a loud, boozy "Circle of Liberty" where
            > everyone is importuned to have their say, gun shooting (albeit not while
            > peeing on anyone's tent), and other various outre activities (I'd like to
            > see a defiant, liberty-oriented poetry-reading myself)...but also with
            > speechifying, vendors, info opportunities, etc. The main thing is bringing
            > together "the folks." The most important aim at any PorcFest is for
            > current
            > and potential Porcupines to get together, mix, meet, and mingle. The
            > Gunstock venue seemed to militate against that. Rogers is perfect for
            > it...as long as we don't have problems with the owner, and prevent people
            > from peeing in the wrong venues.... ---Tim Condon
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Orrin Converse
            ... Sounds like the free market should prevail. Tim, you should run a Condon-fest replete with booze and wanton gluttony at Rogers as a venue for people who
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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              > I have always seen the PorcFest (since I initiated the first one
              > immediately after we chose the Free State) as a full-blown
              > celebration, a
              > party, if you will, with music, dancing, excessive alcohol intake
              > (although
              > *I* never peed on anyone's tent), a loud, boozy "Circle of Liberty"
              > where
              > everyone is importuned to have their say, gun shooting (albeit not
              > while
              > peeing on anyone's tent), and other various outre activities (I'd
              > like to
              > see a defiant, liberty-oriented poetry-reading myself)...but also with
              > speechifying, vendors, info opportunities, etc. The main thing is
              > bringing
              > together "the folks." The most important aim at any PorcFest is for
              > current
              > and potential Porcupines to get together, mix, meet, and mingle. The
              > Gunstock venue seemed to militate against that. Rogers is perfect for
              > it...as long as we don't have problems with the owner, and prevent
              > people
              > from peeing in the wrong venues.... ---Tim Condon


              Sounds like the free market should prevail. Tim, you should run a
              Condon-fest replete with booze and wanton gluttony at Rogers as a venue
              for people who are interested in that sort of thing, and other people
              should run an event that's a little more demure as a recruiting tool
              for potential members and movers. Why does there only have to be one
              gathering per year? There doesn't need to be any competition or
              animosity. How about just a recognition that different people are
              interested in different things?

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Steve
              Rich, you gathered surveys: maybe you could post the results on our web site? From literally my first minute at PF07 I was impressed by Gunstock s customer
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                Rich, you gathered surveys: maybe you could post the results on our
                web site?

                From literally my first minute at PF07 I was impressed by Gunstock's
                customer service. The security guy was tickled by all the porcupines
                carrying guns. Compare that with what an influential libertarian
                wrote me after PF05:

                -----------------------

                I showed up a little early on the first morning and parked in front
                of the office along with maybe 20 other cars in what looked like a
                small parking lot. There were no signs that I could see that said
                not to park there. There was nowhere else to park, and the office
                wasn't open yet--this was at 8:30 or 9:00 a.m. Lots of other people
                were waiting for it to open, too. The conference was going to
                start, so I left my car there along with all the others (where else
                was I going to put it?) and went to the conference. Around 11:45, I
                walked out to the parking lot to drive to lunch and my car was gone,
                along with everyone else's. The owner/operator had had it towed. I
                got the "address" and phone # of the towing company, but there was
                no cell phone coverage (contrary to a statement on the FSP website,
                the entire state is definitely NOT wired for cell phones), so I
                couldn't call them. The address was something like "Highway 120,"
                with no street #, in a town north of Lancaster. Since towns are
                geographically large in NH, this place could have been anywhere
                along 120 for miles! I got a guy to give me a ride, and we spent
                about half an hour trying to find the place. We drove past it a
                couple of times and had to stop and ask for directions in three
                different places, as my car was on the back of a truck in the middle
                of a junkyard and couldn't be seen from the road, and the
                business' "sign" was painted on the door of the truck. Of course I
                had to pay a fee to get my car back. And all of this time, I was
                missing the conference. I was livid!

                I also heard that the assistant of Badnarik was sitting in their car
                in the same parking lot I had been, getting some shuteye when the
                operator came up to the car and yelled in his face, then called the
                cops, I believe. I also heard of at least one run-in with one of
                the attendees who was camping there. When I heard that they had
                secured the same campground for this year's Porcfest, I
                thought "Damn, they must be gluttons for punishment." I will NEVER
                attend another Porcfest as long as it is held at that same
                campground and the same SOB runs it."


                --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Jason P Sorens"
                <jsorens@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Condon" <tim@> wrote:
                >
                > > No way. I've been at every Rogers FSP party since before the
                choice
                > of NH as
                > > the Free State, and *never* was told "you can't go in there
                unless
                > you pay."
                > > But Michele and I were told that at Gunstock.
                >
                > I wasn't at Gunstock, but at the first 3 PorcFests I was definitely
                > told I had to pay to get in, because I wasn't staying at Rogers.
                Also,
                > the owner called the cops on some of our guests, including Michael
                > Badnarik, & had their cars towed because they didn't pay.
                >
                > I've heard other stories about Rogers: drunk campers peeing on Free
                > Staters' tents, a bunch of white supremacists hassling Free
                Staters, &
                > so on.
                >
                > Probably, neither place is ideal, but why not give Gunstock 1 more
                > chance? There's always '09 to return to Rogers if it still doesn't
                > work all that well.
                >
                > Jason
                >
              • James Sulinski
                I wasn t impressed with Gunstock for the reasons outlined above (poor acoustics, layout of campsites), but I do think that something within, say, an hour of
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 5, 2007
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                  I wasn't impressed with Gunstock for the reasons outlined above (poor
                  acoustics, layout of campsites), but I do think that something within, say,
                  an hour of Manchester is important, both for daytrippers and out-of-staters
                  flying in.

                  On that, I second the notions: let's try to find a new venue.

                  If we can't manage to find something better in these regards, we definitely
                  need to work on the significant issues. It would be best if we could do all
                  of this on our own land, with our own supplies (and our own cooks and
                  bartenders? :P). All in good time.

                  James


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dale in L.A.
                  I ve only been to the one Porcfest- the most recent one at Gunstock, so I don t have anything to compare it to. All I know is that I absolutely loved it and it
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 5, 2007
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                    I've only been to the one Porcfest- the most recent one at Gunstock, so I
                    don't have anything to compare it to. All I know is that I absolutely loved
                    it and it convinced me to make the move sooner rather than after 20,000
                    people signed up and now I'm here. What convinced me was just meeting great
                    people so maybe the location didn't matter so much for that.

                    I remember being a little bit relieved that it was in a somewhat central
                    location. It was very helpful to go on tours of key cities, coming from
                    someone who's ig'nant of NH in general. Now that I'm a resident, I can also
                    see my likelyhood of attending being higher since it's closer, assuming I'm
                    working by that time. If I'm not working, I'll probably be there
                    regardless.

                    Maybe more than one event isn't such a bad idea. Two big events a year
                    doesn't seem like enough. :) Alternatively, is there some way to achieve a
                    best of both worlds somehow? For instance, could there be a setup for tours
                    early in the week from some central location where people can go out and
                    meet Porcupines in their natural habitat (hehe) like we did this year, and
                    then more of the party and hang-out thing happening up at Rogers for the
                    weekend? I'm just brainstorming.


                    Dale in L.A.





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