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RE: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian

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  • Thomas Tuathal Simmons
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 6, 2006
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      <<< If New Hampshire already was libertarian, there would be no need for
      the FSP at all; it would be the haven we all seek now. New Hampshire is
      *more* libertarian than other states, and as you note, the results speak
      for themselves. But it is not fully libertarian by any means. There is
      plenty of room for improvement >>>

      But there is no such a thing as an Absolute Libertarian Perfection...and in
      fact, you would not find even TWO individuals who would agree 100% on the
      merely "theoretical" attributes of a such a Perfect Libertarian state.

      Therefore, there can ONLY be degrees of Libertarianism, relative to other
      places. And, there will ALWAYS be room for improvement.

      And that also means that the original question, "what if NH went
      libertarian?," is really the wrong question. New Hampshire IS libertarian,
      it can *not* 'become' Libertarian because no one knows what that means and
      not even Libertarians can agree on it.

      The better way to phrase this is, "Look at how healthy New Hampshire is with
      its relatively Libertarian approach to government. Imagine how much better
      it could be if we could even improve on that!"

      And thats how *I* present the scenario to outsiders. We're Good, and
      Getting Better.

      Thom





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mike Lorrey
      ... They aren t only because there aren t enough Republicans who are that way. Those that aren t, though, tend to follow their active constituents. If they see
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 6, 2006
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        --- GTriest <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

        > Oh stop, please. It is a wonderful fantasy, but so obviously not
        > accurate as to be silly.
        >
        > NH does not have a libertarian government. If it did, the whole
        > panapoly of libertarian rules, laws, and precepts would be in effect
        > in NH. They simply are not.

        They aren't only because there aren't enough Republicans who are that
        way. Those that aren't, though, tend to follow their active
        constituents. If they see support of libertarians as necessary to
        reelection, they will vote that way. That is the purpose of NHLA. It is
        working on an increasing basis. I've even seen democrats try to argue
        for their patently statist/socialist bills claiming that they enhance
        liberty somehow. They don't do it well, but even they are starting to
        realize how the metric has changed in the state house.

        >
        > So we can work our way toward it, with much better fodder than any
        > other state. But NH is not yet libertarian in its government.

        It is by no means big L Libertarian. Not by a long shot. It is very
        libertarian in a "main street libertarian", though not as much as it
        once was when the LPNH had ballot standing and we had our own caucus in
        the legislature... Hopefully the court will rule in our favor and we'll
        get ballot status back.

        Mike Lorrey
        President, Lorrey Aerospace
        http://www.lorrey.biz
        Founder, Constitution Park Foundation
        Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
      • Jane
        Thom I like your attitude. Because if we wait for utopia and do nothing, we aren t going to get anywhere. By not voting, and not running for office and not
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 6, 2006
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          Thom I like your attitude. Because if we wait for utopia and do
          nothing, we aren't going to get anywhere. By not voting, and not
          running for office and not showing up at the statehouse, we lose.
          We must outvote the fraudsters and beat them that way.

          On Aug 6, 2006, at 5:32 PM, Thomas Tuathal Simmons wrote:

          > <<< If New Hampshire already was libertarian, there would be no
          > need for
          > the FSP at all; it would be the haven we all seek now. New
          > Hampshire is
          > *more* libertarian than other states, and as you note, the results
          > speak
          > for themselves. But it is not fully libertarian by any means. There is
          > plenty of room for improvement >>>
          >
          > But there is no such a thing as an Absolute Libertarian
          > Perfection...and in
          > fact, you would not find even TWO individuals who would agree 100%
          > on the
          > merely "theoretical" attributes of a such a Perfect Libertarian state.
          >
          > Therefore, there can ONLY be degrees of Libertarianism, relative to
          > other
          > places. And, there will ALWAYS be room for improvement.
          >
          > And that also means that the original question, "what if NH went
          > libertarian?," is really the wrong question. New Hampshire IS
          > libertarian,
          > it can *not* 'become' Libertarian because no one knows what that
          > means and
          > not even Libertarians can agree on it.
          >
          > The better way to phrase this is, "Look at how healthy New
          > Hampshire is with
          > its relatively Libertarian approach to government. Imagine how
          > much better
          > it could be if we could even improve on that!"
          >
          > And thats how *I* present the scenario to outsiders. We're Good, and
          > Getting Better.
          >
          > Thom
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          ***
          "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
          consent or by conquest."
          -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
          Senate Foreign Relations
          Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
        • Kelly Halldorson
          Can someone point me to information (or explain to me) how we lost ballot status in the first place? Kelly Halldorson ... From: Mike Lorrey To:
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 6, 2006
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            Can someone point me to information (or explain to me) how we lost ballot status in the first place?

            Kelly Halldorson

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mike Lorrey
            To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [FSP] What if NH went libertarian




            --- GTriest <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

            > Oh stop, please. It is a wonderful fantasy, but so obviously not
            > accurate as to be silly.
            >
            > NH does not have a libertarian government. If it did, the whole
            > panapoly of libertarian rules, laws, and precepts would be in effect
            > in NH. They simply are not.

            They aren't only because there aren't enough Republicans who are that
            way. Those that aren't, though, tend to follow their active
            constituents. If they see support of libertarians as necessary to
            reelection, they will vote that way. That is the purpose of NHLA. It is
            working on an increasing basis. I've even seen democrats try to argue
            for their patently statist/socialist bills claiming that they enhance
            liberty somehow. They don't do it well, but even they are starting to
            realize how the metric has changed in the state house.

            >
            > So we can work our way toward it, with much better fodder than any
            > other state. But NH is not yet libertarian in its government.

            It is by no means big L Libertarian. Not by a long shot. It is very
            libertarian in a "main street libertarian", though not as much as it
            once was when the LPNH had ballot standing and we had our own caucus in
            the legislature... Hopefully the court will rule in our favor and we'll
            get ballot status back.

            Mike Lorrey
            President, Lorrey Aerospace
            http://www.lorrey.biz
            Founder, Constitution Park Foundation
            Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Alleman
            ... Do you maintain that those same illegal out-of-state voters are actually coming back to the state to be included in Lynch s current favorable poll numbers?
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 6, 2006
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              Jane wrote on 8/6/2006, 3:55 PM:

              > As for why in such a conservative state the governor is a D I can
              > only offer my opinion that because of our 'liberal' voter
              > registration rules, we have a lot of out of staters that come here
              > and vote illegally and then leave

              Do you maintain that those same illegal out-of-state voters are actually
              coming back to the state to be included in Lynch's current favorable
              poll numbers? If not, what do you propose is keeping them so high
              post-election?

              Or maybe, just maybe, despite the intentionally crafted ballot access
              laws overly favorable to a restrictive 2-party system, the electorate is
              actually reasonably libertarian, but generally just chooses what it
              considers the lesser of the 2 major-party evils it's allowed, often
              oscillating between the 2 parties.

              Or it could be a vast left-wing conspiracy, I suppose...
              --

              --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
              BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
              allemanse.com=-
              --= Proud Member - Reality-Based Community =--
            • Jane
              The polls they cite are taken at colleges. ... *** You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by consent or by conquest. -- Former FDR
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                The polls they cite are taken at colleges.

                On Aug 6, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Bill Alleman wrote:

                >
                > Jane wrote on 8/6/2006, 3:55 PM:
                >
                >> As for why in such a conservative state the governor is a D I can
                >> only offer my opinion that because of our 'liberal' voter
                >> registration rules, we have a lot of out of staters that come here
                >> and vote illegally and then leave
                >
                > Do you maintain that those same illegal out-of-state voters are
                > actually
                > coming back to the state to be included in Lynch's current favorable
                > poll numbers? If not, what do you propose is keeping them so high
                > post-election?
                >
                > Or maybe, just maybe, despite the intentionally crafted ballot access
                > laws overly favorable to a restrictive 2-party system, the
                > electorate is
                > actually reasonably libertarian, but generally just chooses what it
                > considers the lesser of the 2 major-party evils it's allowed, often
                > oscillating between the 2 parties.
                >
                > Or it could be a vast left-wing conspiracy, I suppose...
                > --
                >
                > --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
                > BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
                > allemanse.com=-
                > --= Proud Member - Reality-Based Community =--
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                ***
                "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                consent or by conquest."
                -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                Senate Foreign Relations
                Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
              • Bill Alleman
                ... No, they re taken _by_ colleges. Big difference. -- --= Ya can t blame me: I vote for liberty. =-- BikerBill=- ©¿©¬ allemanse.com=-
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                  Jane wrote on 8/7/2006, 10:05 AM:

                  > The polls they cite are taken at colleges.

                  No, they're taken _by_ colleges. Big difference.
                  --

                  --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
                  BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
                  allemanse.com=-
                • GTriest
                  Not waiting for someone else to do the work. Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original contract with the FSP. Life (at least
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                    Not waiting for someone else to do the work.
                    Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original contract with the FSP.

                    Life (at least libertarian life) works with idea of a stable contract.
                    The one that was offered to me, that I agreed to and signed up for, was when 20,000 assignees are obtained for the FreeState project, then I would agree to move to NH.
                    Those were (and are) the terms under which I would work to make NH libertarian, as well as prosper myself there.

                    Gary T
                    "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 2:32 PM
                    Subject: Re: What if NH went libertarian



                    Hi Gary,


                    NH is not libertarian, yet, unfortunately.

                    No, not yet.

                    If it was, I would move there next month.

                    Please tell me you're kidding!

                    You're waiting for someone else to do all the work?
                    Life doesn't work that way.

                    We've moved to this state with the intention to make her libertarian.

                    JB
                    Suncook, NH



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • GTriest
                    There certainly can be degrees of libertarianism, after some fundamental touchstones have been met. There are some things that virtually ALL libertarians agree
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                      There certainly can be degrees of libertarianism, after some fundamental touchstones have been met.

                      There are some things that virtually ALL libertarians agree is not libertarianism, and many among those are still quire active and effective in NH. Ergo, NH is NOT a libertarian state.
                      Closer than others, but that fact does not make it in fact libertarian.


                      Gary T


                      "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Thomas Tuathal Simmons
                      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:32 PM
                      Subject: RE: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian


                      <<< If New Hampshire already was libertarian, there would be no need for
                      the FSP at all; it would be the haven we all seek now. New Hampshire is
                      *more* libertarian than other states, and as you note, the results speak
                      for themselves. But it is not fully libertarian by any means. There is
                      plenty of room for improvement >>>

                      But there is no such a thing as an Absolute Libertarian Perfection...and in
                      fact, you would not find even TWO individuals who would agree 100% on the
                      merely "theoretical" attributes of a such a Perfect Libertarian state.

                      Therefore, there can ONLY be degrees of Libertarianism, relative to other
                      places. And, there will ALWAYS be room for improvement.

                      And that also means that the original question, "what if NH went
                      libertarian?," is really the wrong question. New Hampshire IS libertarian,
                      it can *not* 'become' Libertarian because no one knows what that means and
                      not even Libertarians can agree on it.

                      The better way to phrase this is, "Look at how healthy New Hampshire is with
                      its relatively Libertarian approach to government. Imagine how much better
                      it could be if we could even improve on that!"

                      And thats how *I* present the scenario to outsiders. We're Good, and
                      Getting Better.

                      Thom

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mike Lorrey
                      Its a bit more than that. Any pollster knows that you can skew your polls by what time of day you take them: If you call people s homes during the day, you are
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                        Its a bit more than that. Any pollster knows that you can skew your
                        polls by what time of day you take them:
                        If you call people's homes during the day, you are more likely to get
                        the unemployed, the welfare dependent, the social security dependent,
                        and the housewife, and get few, if any, working males.

                        Thus, a poll conducted during the day automatically skews left.

                        Calling in the evening, and your single people, people who don't have
                        to get up early to go to work, all are out partying at the bars, and
                        wives are more likely to be cooking dinner, so evening calls skew
                        right, since more working males are likely to answer the phone.

                        But Jane is right, college polls don't check the residency of the
                        student, so is more likely to skew left if the state is more right than
                        average for its region, and skew right if the state is more left than
                        average for its region. As NH is the most conservative state in the
                        northeast, and most nonresident students are from other northeastern
                        states, polls of college students skew left.

                        --- Jane <jane@...> wrote:

                        > The polls they cite are taken at colleges.
                        >
                        > On Aug 6, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Bill Alleman wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Jane wrote on 8/6/2006, 3:55 PM:
                        > >
                        > >> As for why in such a conservative state the governor is a D I can
                        > >> only offer my opinion that because of our 'liberal' voter
                        > >> registration rules, we have a lot of out of staters that come here
                        > >> and vote illegally and then leave
                        > >
                        > > Do you maintain that those same illegal out-of-state voters are
                        > > actually
                        > > coming back to the state to be included in Lynch's current
                        > favorable
                        > > poll numbers? If not, what do you propose is keeping them so high
                        > > post-election?
                        > >
                        > > Or maybe, just maybe, despite the intentionally crafted ballot
                        > access
                        > > laws overly favorable to a restrictive 2-party system, the
                        > > electorate is
                        > > actually reasonably libertarian, but generally just chooses what it
                        > > considers the lesser of the 2 major-party evils it's allowed, often
                        > > oscillating between the 2 parties.
                        > >
                        > > Or it could be a vast left-wing conspiracy, I suppose...
                        > > --
                        > >
                        > > --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
                        > > BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
                        > > allemanse.com=-
                        > > --= Proud Member - Reality-Based Community =--
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > ***
                        > "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                        >
                        > consent or by conquest."
                        > -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                        >
                        > Senate Foreign Relations
                        > Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        Mike Lorrey
                        President, Lorrey Aerospace
                        http://www.lorrey.biz
                        Founder, Constitution Park Foundation
                        Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
                      • Mike Lorrey
                        ... The democrats and republicans got together and changed the law, which used to say your statewide candidates (Gov and senators) needed 3% in the previous
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                          --- Kelly Halldorson <kelly@...> wrote:

                          > Can someone point me to information (or explain to me) how we lost
                          > ballot status in the first place?

                          The democrats and republicans got together and changed the law, which
                          used to say your statewide candidates (Gov and senators) needed 3% in
                          the previous race for the Party to have ballot status, and raised that
                          limit to 4% arbitrarily, solely to get rid of the libertarians in the
                          Legislature who formed our own caucus. As our statewide candidates
                          normally got 2.5-3.5%, they knew that with 4%, we'd be off the ballot
                          and have to petition individual candidates onto the ballot.

                          That this was arbitrary, based on no rational reason, is the basis of
                          the suit that was just heard by the NH Supreme Court.

                          At the same time, town clerks made a serious effort around the state to
                          disqualify Libertarian voters, to drive down our vote numbers. I recall
                          when I registered as a Libertarian, Karen Wadsworth got her skirts up
                          in a bunch about eliminating my registration, claiming that I was no
                          longer a resident because I was a part owner of a business on the west
                          coast. She got ticked off at my republican parents that they "let me
                          become a libertarian".


                          Mike Lorrey
                          President, Lorrey Aerospace
                          http://www.lorrey.biz
                          Founder, Constitution Park Foundation
                          Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
                        • Jane
                          Whoa, wait a minute Gary, you say you are waiting for 20,000 others to move here before you yourself come? This sounds like utopianism to me. For if we had
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                            Whoa, wait a minute Gary, you say you are waiting for 20,000 others
                            to move here before you yourself come? This sounds like utopianism to
                            me. For if we had 20,000 here now, we would have taken over
                            completely and this indeed would be libertarian utopia. I mean, just
                            look what 400 have done, with the help of the natives, so far!

                            And according to all reports, NH is still the best place to live and
                            economically doing better than most places already.

                            I agree with the message you got from JB from Suncook who correctly
                            knows you can't wait for 'utopia' to make things happen. You must
                            work within reality...and that reality is now.

                            Jane Aitken
                            Bedford, NH 03110
                            Candidate for House of Representatives, Hillsborough 18
                            www.janeaitken.org

                            On Aug 7, 2006, at 4:20 PM, GTriest wrote:

                            > Not waiting for someone else to do the work.
                            > Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original
                            > contract with the FSP.
                            >
                            > Life (at least libertarian life) works with idea of a stable contract.
                            > The one that was offered to me, that I agreed to and signed up for,
                            > was when 20,000 assignees are obtained for the FreeState project,
                            > then I would agree to move to NH.
                            > Those were (and are) the terms under which I would work to make NH
                            > libertarian, as well as prosper myself there.
                            >
                            > Gary T
                            > "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            >
                            > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 2:32 PM
                            > Subject: Re: What if NH went libertarian
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Gary,
                            >
                            >
                            > NH is not libertarian, yet, unfortunately.
                            >
                            > No, not yet.
                            >
                            > If it was, I would move there next month.
                            >
                            > Please tell me you're kidding!
                            >
                            > You're waiting for someone else to do all the work?
                            > Life doesn't work that way.
                            >
                            > We've moved to this state with the intention to make her
                            > libertarian.
                            >
                            > JB
                            > Suncook, NH
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            ***
                            "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                            consent or by conquest."
                            -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                            Senate Foreign Relations
                            Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                          • Jane
                            Thank you Mikey! I knew you d have the scientific explanation for what I already knew... :-) ... *** You shall have one world government, whether or not you
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 7, 2006
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                              Thank you Mikey! I knew you'd have the scientific explanation for
                              what I already knew... :-)

                              On Aug 7, 2006, at 5:16 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

                              >
                              > Its a bit more than that. Any pollster knows that you can skew your
                              > polls by what time of day you take them:
                              > If you call people's homes during the day, you are more likely to get
                              > the unemployed, the welfare dependent, the social security dependent,
                              > and the housewife, and get few, if any, working males.
                              >
                              > Thus, a poll conducted during the day automatically skews left.
                              >
                              > Calling in the evening, and your single people, people who don't have
                              > to get up early to go to work, all are out partying at the bars, and
                              > wives are more likely to be cooking dinner, so evening calls skew
                              > right, since more working males are likely to answer the phone.
                              >
                              > But Jane is right, college polls don't check the residency of the
                              > student, so is more likely to skew left if the state is more right
                              > than
                              > average for its region, and skew right if the state is more left than
                              > average for its region. As NH is the most conservative state in the
                              > northeast, and most nonresident students are from other northeastern
                              > states, polls of college students skew left.
                              >
                              > --- Jane <jane@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> The polls they cite are taken at colleges.
                              >>
                              >> On Aug 6, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Bill Alleman wrote:
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>> Jane wrote on 8/6/2006, 3:55 PM:
                              >>>
                              >>>> As for why in such a conservative state the governor is a D I can
                              >>>> only offer my opinion that because of our 'liberal' voter
                              >>>> registration rules, we have a lot of out of staters that come here
                              >>>> and vote illegally and then leave
                              >>>
                              >>> Do you maintain that those same illegal out-of-state voters are
                              >>> actually
                              >>> coming back to the state to be included in Lynch's current
                              >> favorable
                              >>> poll numbers? If not, what do you propose is keeping them so high
                              >>> post-election?
                              >>>
                              >>> Or maybe, just maybe, despite the intentionally crafted ballot
                              >> access
                              >>> laws overly favorable to a restrictive 2-party system, the
                              >>> electorate is
                              >>> actually reasonably libertarian, but generally just chooses what it
                              >>> considers the lesser of the 2 major-party evils it's allowed, often
                              >>> oscillating between the 2 parties.
                              >>>
                              >>> Or it could be a vast left-wing conspiracy, I suppose...
                              >>> --
                              >>>
                              >>> --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
                              >>> BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
                              >>> allemanse.com=-
                              >>> --= Proud Member - Reality-Based Community =--
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >> ***
                              >> "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                              >>
                              >> consent or by conquest."
                              >> -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                              >>
                              >> Senate Foreign Relations
                              >> Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike Lorrey
                              > President, Lorrey Aerospace
                              > http://www.lorrey.biz
                              > Founder, Constitution Park Foundation
                              > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              ***
                              "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                              consent or by conquest."
                              -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                              Senate Foreign Relations
                              Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                            • GTriest
                              Believe me, I totally empathize and agree with this plan in spirit and in action. I have even written published article(s) extolling its virtue and its great
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                Believe me, I totally empathize and agree with this plan in spirit and in action.
                                I have even written published article(s) extolling its virtue and its great vision and have also contributed money as well.

                                My point was not that I expect others to do this work and I would come in only when it is easy.
                                I merely pointed out that I could not be shamed into doing so pursuant to the existing contract I made with the FSP, which had those stipulations.
                                The contract notwithstanding, I have no explicit bar to coming earlier; it just was not my original plan or agreement.

                                But I do in fact have an vested business and social life where I am now, which part of my life schemata.
                                But that is what planning is all about, right?

                                Gary T



                                "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Jane
                                To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:46 PM
                                Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian


                                Whoa, wait a minute Gary, you say you are waiting for 20,000 others
                                to move here before you yourself come? This sounds like utopianism to
                                me. For if we had 20,000 here now, we would have taken over
                                completely and this indeed would be libertarian utopia. I mean, just
                                look what 400 have done, with the help of the natives, so far!

                                And according to all reports, NH is still the best place to live and
                                economically doing better than most places already.

                                I agree with the message you got from JB from Suncook who correctly
                                knows you can't wait for 'utopia' to make things happen. You must
                                work within reality...and that reality is now.

                                Jane Aitken
                                Bedford, NH 03110
                                Candidate for House of Representatives, Hillsborough 18
                                www.janeaitken.org

                                On Aug 7, 2006, at 4:20 PM, GTriest wrote:

                                > Not waiting for someone else to do the work.
                                > Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original
                                > contract with the FSP.
                                >
                                > Life (at least libertarian life) works with idea of a stable contract.
                                > The one that was offered to me, that I agreed to and signed up for,
                                > was when 20,000 assignees are obtained for the FreeState project,
                                > then I would agree to move to NH.
                                > Those were (and are) the terms under which I would work to make NH
                                > libertarian, as well as prosper myself there.
                                >
                                > Gary T
                                > "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                >
                                > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 2:32 PM
                                > Subject: Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Gary,
                                >
                                >
                                > NH is not libertarian, yet, unfortunately.
                                >
                                > No, not yet.
                                >
                                > If it was, I would move there next month.
                                >
                                > Please tell me you're kidding!
                                >
                                > You're waiting for someone else to do all the work?
                                > Life doesn't work that way.
                                >
                                > We've moved to this state with the intention to make her
                                > libertarian.
                                >
                                > JB
                                > Suncook, NH
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                ***
                                "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                consent or by conquest."
                                -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                Senate Foreign Relations
                                Committee, 17 Feb 1950.





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jane
                                Well then let s just say it is not practical for you right now, but perhaps you will join us in the future. We know that not everyone can just pick up and
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 8, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Well then let's just say it is not practical for you right now, but
                                  perhaps you will join us in the future. We know that not everyone can
                                  just pick up and leave, especially if they need to work fulltime and
                                  don't have job prospects here yet. It's called personal
                                  responsibility to oneself and family and that comes first....of course!

                                  But let's not deem the FSP a failure yet, because it is just getting
                                  going and is picking up steam!

                                  On Aug 8, 2006, at 11:50 AM, GTriest wrote:

                                  > Believe me, I totally empathize and agree with this plan in spirit
                                  > and in action.
                                  > I have even written published article(s) extolling its virtue and
                                  > its great vision and have also contributed money as well.
                                  >
                                  > My point was not that I expect others to do this work and I would
                                  > come in only when it is easy.
                                  > I merely pointed out that I could not be shamed into doing so
                                  > pursuant to the existing contract I made with the FSP, which had
                                  > those stipulations.
                                  > The contract notwithstanding, I have no explicit bar to coming
                                  > earlier; it just was not my original plan or agreement.
                                  >
                                  > But I do in fact have an vested business and social life where I am
                                  > now, which part of my life schemata.
                                  > But that is what planning is all about, right?
                                  >
                                  > Gary T
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Jane
                                  > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:46 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Whoa, wait a minute Gary, you say you are waiting for 20,000 others
                                  > to move here before you yourself come? This sounds like
                                  > utopianism to
                                  > me. For if we had 20,000 here now, we would have taken over
                                  > completely and this indeed would be libertarian utopia. I mean, just
                                  > look what 400 have done, with the help of the natives, so far!
                                  >
                                  > And according to all reports, NH is still the best place to live and
                                  > economically doing better than most places already.
                                  >
                                  > I agree with the message you got from JB from Suncook who correctly
                                  > knows you can't wait for 'utopia' to make things happen. You must
                                  > work within reality...and that reality is now.
                                  >
                                  > Jane Aitken
                                  > Bedford, NH 03110
                                  > Candidate for House of Representatives, Hillsborough 18
                                  > www.janeaitken.org
                                  >
                                  > On Aug 7, 2006, at 4:20 PM, GTriest wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Not waiting for someone else to do the work.
                                  >> Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original
                                  >> contract with the FSP.
                                  >>
                                  >> Life (at least libertarian life) works with idea of a stable
                                  >> contract.
                                  >> The one that was offered to me, that I agreed to and signed up for,
                                  >> was when 20,000 assignees are obtained for the FreeState project,
                                  >> then I would agree to move to NH.
                                  >> Those were (and are) the terms under which I would work to make NH
                                  >> libertarian, as well as prosper myself there.
                                  >>
                                  >> Gary T
                                  >> "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                  >>
                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                  >>
                                  >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 2:32 PM
                                  >> Subject: Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Hi Gary,
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> NH is not libertarian, yet, unfortunately.
                                  >>
                                  >> No, not yet.
                                  >>
                                  >> If it was, I would move there next month.
                                  >>
                                  >> Please tell me you're kidding!
                                  >>
                                  >> You're waiting for someone else to do all the work?
                                  >> Life doesn't work that way.
                                  >>
                                  >> We've moved to this state with the intention to make her
                                  >> libertarian.
                                  >>
                                  >> JB
                                  >> Suncook, NH
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > ***
                                  > "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                  > consent or by conquest."
                                  > -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                  > Senate Foreign Relations
                                  > Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  ***
                                  "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                  consent or by conquest."
                                  -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                  Senate Foreign Relations
                                  Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                                • tim condon
                                  I m with you, Jane. Heck, *I* haven t made the move yet...but I m moving toward it, and quicklyj, and in the process doing everything I can to advance the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 8, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'm with you, Jane. Heck, *I* haven't made the move yet...but I'm moving
                                    toward it, and quicklyj, and in the process doing everything I can to
                                    advance the fortunes of the FSP in general and the FSP pioneers who have
                                    already made the move to the Free State. --Tim Condon

                                    On 8/8/06, Jane <jane@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Well then let's just say it is not practical for you right now, but
                                    > perhaps you will join us in the future. We know that not everyone can
                                    > just pick up and leave, especially if they need to work fulltime and
                                    > don't have job prospects here yet. It's called personal
                                    > responsibility to oneself and family and that comes first....of course!
                                    >
                                    > But let's not deem the FSP a failure yet, because it is just getting
                                    > going and is picking up steam!


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • GTriest
                                    Jane: I think you are getting your Garys mixed up. I don t think this is a failure at all. I think it is a fantastic opportunity to cause a civil revolution
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 9, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Jane:

                                      I think you are getting your Garys mixed up.

                                      I don't think this is a failure at all. I think it is a fantastic opportunity to cause a civil revolution w/o violence or physical mayhem.
                                      That it has gotten this far is an amazing feat and very encouraging that there is enough passion to make bigger things happen other than kvetch about it.

                                      I liken this movement to the movements of other oppressed groups who sought to go somewhere they could congregate and form a better life - the pilgrims, the American revolution, the immigrants of the early 1900s and later. Ride Captain Ride aboard your mystery ship, et al.

                                      The biggest difference is, here is a destination that is so much easier, that has a modern infrastructure and existing sovereignty, and a population that already has our language and mores.
                                      All it takes is the proper "I'm mad as hell and I can't take it anymore" attitude to incite enough of the 350M people in the US to do this.
                                      Dare I say, a tiny fraction. .00006 in fact. 1 out of 16000 people.
                                      It would seem like we could find that percentage of people who would do anything, let alone something truly liberating like this.

                                      I think the main problem is that far less number of people than that even know about the FSP or its goals.

                                      Gary T

                                      "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Jane
                                      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:11 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian


                                      Well then let's just say it is not practical for you right now, but
                                      perhaps you will join us in the future. We know that not everyone can
                                      just pick up and leave, especially if they need to work fulltime and
                                      don't have job prospects here yet. It's called personal
                                      responsibility to oneself and family and that comes first....of course!

                                      But let's not deem the FSP a failure yet, because it is just getting
                                      going and is picking up steam!

                                      On Aug 8, 2006, at 11:50 AM, GTriest wrote:

                                      > Believe me, I totally empathize and agree with this plan in spirit
                                      > and in action.
                                      > I have even written published article(s) extolling its virtue and
                                      > its great vision and have also contributed money as well.
                                      >
                                      > My point was not that I expect others to do this work and I would
                                      > come in only when it is easy.
                                      > I merely pointed out that I could not be shamed into doing so
                                      > pursuant to the existing contract I made with the FSP, which had
                                      > those stipulations.
                                      > The contract notwithstanding, I have no explicit bar to coming
                                      > earlier; it just was not my original plan or agreement.
                                      >
                                      > But I do in fact have an vested business and social life where I am
                                      > now, which part of my life schemata.
                                      > But that is what planning is all about, right?
                                      >
                                      > Gary T
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Jane
                                      > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:46 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Whoa, wait a minute Gary, you say you are waiting for 20,000 others
                                      > to move here before you yourself come? This sounds like
                                      > utopianism to
                                      > me. For if we had 20,000 here now, we would have taken over
                                      > completely and this indeed would be libertarian utopia. I mean, just
                                      > look what 400 have done, with the help of the natives, so far!
                                      >
                                      > And according to all reports, NH is still the best place to live and
                                      > economically doing better than most places already.
                                      >
                                      > I agree with the message you got from JB from Suncook who correctly
                                      > knows you can't wait for 'utopia' to make things happen. You must
                                      > work within reality...and that reality is now.
                                      >
                                      > Jane Aitken
                                      > Bedford, NH 03110
                                      > Candidate for House of Representatives, Hillsborough 18
                                      > www.janeaitken.org
                                      >
                                      > On Aug 7, 2006, at 4:20 PM, GTriest wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Not waiting for someone else to do the work.
                                      >> Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original
                                      >> contract with the FSP.
                                      >>
                                      >> Life (at least libertarian life) works with idea of a stable
                                      >> contract.
                                      >> The one that was offered to me, that I agreed to and signed up for,
                                      >> was when 20,000 assignees are obtained for the FreeState project,
                                      >> then I would agree to move to NH.
                                      >> Those were (and are) the terms under which I would work to make NH
                                      >> libertarian, as well as prosper myself there.
                                      >>
                                      >> Gary T
                                      >> "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                      >>
                                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >>
                                      >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 2:32 PM
                                      >> Subject: Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Hi Gary,
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> NH is not libertarian, yet, unfortunately.
                                      >>
                                      >> No, not yet.
                                      >>
                                      >> If it was, I would move there next month.
                                      >>
                                      >> Please tell me you're kidding!
                                      >>
                                      >> You're waiting for someone else to do all the work?
                                      >> Life doesn't work that way.
                                      >>
                                      >> We've moved to this state with the intention to make her
                                      >> libertarian.
                                      >>
                                      >> JB
                                      >> Suncook, NH
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > ***
                                      > "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                      > consent or by conquest."
                                      > -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                      > Senate Foreign Relations
                                      > Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      ***
                                      "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                      consent or by conquest."
                                      -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                      Senate Foreign Relations
                                      Committee, 17 Feb 1950.





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jane
                                      Oh are there more than two? Sorry. We are doing good work here is the basic message. We do *mostly* support each other, both physically (as in moving help) and
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 9, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Oh are there more than two? Sorry.

                                        We are doing good work here is the basic message.

                                        We do *mostly* support each other, both physically (as in moving
                                        help) and politically (whenever there is a call to action about an
                                        issue) and sometimes even socially and emotionally when people just
                                        need friends. Sometimes.

                                        On Aug 9, 2006, at 2:35 PM, GTriest wrote:

                                        > Jane:
                                        >
                                        > I think you are getting your Garys mixed up.
                                        >
                                        > I don't think this is a failure at all. I think it is a fantastic
                                        > opportunity to cause a civil revolution w/o violence or physical
                                        > mayhem.
                                        > That it has gotten this far is an amazing feat and very encouraging
                                        > that there is enough passion to make bigger things happen other
                                        > than kvetch about it.
                                        >
                                        > I liken this movement to the movements of other oppressed groups
                                        > who sought to go somewhere they could congregate and form a better
                                        > life - the pilgrims, the American revolution, the immigrants of the
                                        > early 1900s and later. Ride Captain Ride aboard your mystery ship,
                                        > et al.
                                        >
                                        > The biggest difference is, here is a destination that is so much
                                        > easier, that has a modern infrastructure and existing sovereignty,
                                        > and a population that already has our language and mores.
                                        > All it takes is the proper "I'm mad as hell and I can't take it
                                        > anymore" attitude to incite enough of the 350M people in the US to
                                        > do this.
                                        > Dare I say, a tiny fraction. .00006 in fact. 1 out of 16000 people.
                                        > It would seem like we could find that percentage of people who
                                        > would do anything, let alone something truly liberating like this.
                                        >
                                        > I think the main problem is that far less number of people than
                                        > that even know about the FSP or its goals.
                                        >
                                        > Gary T
                                        >
                                        > "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Jane
                                        > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:11 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Well then let's just say it is not practical for you right now, but
                                        > perhaps you will join us in the future. We know that not everyone
                                        > can
                                        > just pick up and leave, especially if they need to work fulltime and
                                        > don't have job prospects here yet. It's called personal
                                        > responsibility to oneself and family and that comes first....of
                                        > course!
                                        >
                                        > But let's not deem the FSP a failure yet, because it is just getting
                                        > going and is picking up steam!
                                        >
                                        > On Aug 8, 2006, at 11:50 AM, GTriest wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> Believe me, I totally empathize and agree with this plan in spirit
                                        >> and in action.
                                        >> I have even written published article(s) extolling its virtue and
                                        >> its great vision and have also contributed money as well.
                                        >>
                                        >> My point was not that I expect others to do this work and I would
                                        >> come in only when it is easy.
                                        >> I merely pointed out that I could not be shamed into doing so
                                        >> pursuant to the existing contract I made with the FSP, which had
                                        >> those stipulations.
                                        >> The contract notwithstanding, I have no explicit bar to coming
                                        >> earlier; it just was not my original plan or agreement.
                                        >>
                                        >> But I do in fact have an vested business and social life where I am
                                        >> now, which part of my life schemata.
                                        >> But that is what planning is all about, right?
                                        >>
                                        >> Gary T
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                        >>
                                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                                        >> From: Jane
                                        >> To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                        >> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:46 PM
                                        >> Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Whoa, wait a minute Gary, you say you are waiting for 20,000 others
                                        >> to move here before you yourself come? This sounds like
                                        >> utopianism to
                                        >> me. For if we had 20,000 here now, we would have taken over
                                        >> completely and this indeed would be libertarian utopia. I mean, just
                                        >> look what 400 have done, with the help of the natives, so far!
                                        >>
                                        >> And according to all reports, NH is still the best place to live and
                                        >> economically doing better than most places already.
                                        >>
                                        >> I agree with the message you got from JB from Suncook who correctly
                                        >> knows you can't wait for 'utopia' to make things happen. You must
                                        >> work within reality...and that reality is now.
                                        >>
                                        >> Jane Aitken
                                        >> Bedford, NH 03110
                                        >> Candidate for House of Representatives, Hillsborough 18
                                        >> www.janeaitken.org
                                        >>
                                        >> On Aug 7, 2006, at 4:20 PM, GTriest wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>> Not waiting for someone else to do the work.
                                        >>> Just if they have, I would join up now. In advance of my original
                                        >>> contract with the FSP.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Life (at least libertarian life) works with idea of a stable
                                        >>> contract.
                                        >>> The one that was offered to me, that I agreed to and signed up for,
                                        >>> was when 20,000 assignees are obtained for the FreeState project,
                                        >>> then I would agree to move to NH.
                                        >>> Those were (and are) the terms under which I would work to make NH
                                        >>> libertarian, as well as prosper myself there.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Gary T
                                        >>> "It is better to have a bad plan, than no plan at all"
                                        >>>
                                        >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 2:32 PM
                                        >>> Subject: Re: What if NH went libertarian
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Hi Gary,
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> NH is not libertarian, yet, unfortunately.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> No, not yet.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> If it was, I would move there next month.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Please tell me you're kidding!
                                        >>>
                                        >>> You're waiting for someone else to do all the work?
                                        >>> Life doesn't work that way.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> We've moved to this state with the intention to make her
                                        >>> libertarian.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> JB
                                        >>> Suncook, NH
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >> ***
                                        >> "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                        >> consent or by conquest."
                                        >> -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                        >> Senate Foreign Relations
                                        >> Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > ***
                                        > "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                        > consent or by conquest."
                                        > -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                        > Senate Foreign Relations
                                        > Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        ***
                                        "You shall have one world government, whether or not you like it, by
                                        consent or by conquest."
                                        -- Former FDR aide, James Warburg CFR/TC, in testimony before the US
                                        Senate Foreign Relations
                                        Committee, 17 Feb 1950.
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