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Graphic Evidence

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  • Bill Alleman
    Everybody s familiar with the Doomsday Clock, the device for representing how close a group considers the world to be to nuclear destruction, right? Or the
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 10, 2006
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      Everybody's familiar with the "Doomsday Clock," the device for
      representing how close a group considers the world to be to nuclear
      destruction, right? Or the graph showing the shifting "Tax Freedom Day?"
      Well, has any political historian attempted a sort of similar concept to
      demonstrate deviation from original US liberty over time? Say, a
      timeline graph from 1776 (or even 1600, for comparison) off some
      arbitrary axis, with positive Y as flourishing liberty, and negative Y
      as encroaching statism/authoritarianism (maybe even separate ones for
      economic and social liberties), with landmark events indicated. I can
      suspect what it would look like, and it might be a pretty effective
      marketing tool. Does anything like this exist already?

      I did find this interesting site in my search...
      http://www.belmont.edu/lockesmith/
      --

      --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
      BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
      allemanse.com=-
    • Steve
      There are various freedom indexes, but I doubt they go back very far: http://www.cato.org/pubs/efw/ http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/ An overall
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 11, 2006
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        There are various freedom indexes, but I doubt they go back very far:
        http://www.cato.org/pubs/efw/
        http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/

        An overall freedom index might not tell the story you want, as
        during its first century or so the US had slavery and lacked women's
        sufferage. Also, while the federal government might have been
        small, some state governments might have been a bit more obnoxious

        Constitutional amendments generally increased personal freedom until
        in 1913 the 16th Amendment created the income tax. It's been mostly
        downhill from there, with Prohibition and The New Deal being the
        most significant break points. Perhaps you can get data starting in
        1900.

        A reasonable proxy for freedom, or lack thereof, might be government
        spending as percent of GDP.

        --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Alleman"
        <Bill245@...> wrote:
        >
        > Everybody's familiar with the "Doomsday Clock," the device for
        > representing how close a group considers the world to be to
        nuclear
        > destruction, right? Or the graph showing the shifting "Tax Freedom
        Day?"
        > Well, has any political historian attempted a sort of similar
        concept to
        > demonstrate deviation from original US liberty over time? Say, a
        > timeline graph from 1776 (or even 1600, for comparison) off some
        > arbitrary axis, with positive Y as flourishing liberty, and
        negative Y
        > as encroaching statism/authoritarianism (maybe even separate ones
        for
        > economic and social liberties), with landmark events indicated. I
        can
        > suspect what it would look like, and it might be a pretty
        effective
        > marketing tool. Does anything like this exist already?
        >
        > I did find this interesting site in my search...
        > http://www.belmont.edu/lockesmith/
        > --
        >
        > --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
        > BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
        > allemanse.com=-
        >
      • Chris Barnhart
        Hi fellow FreeStaters, On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a vote related to the Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had rejected
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 11, 2006
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          Hi fellow FreeStaters,

          On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a vote related to the
          Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had rejected
          participating in the Real ID act! However, scanning the house
          records for Wednesday (3-8) I found the opposite:

          HB1582 : prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national
          identification card system.
          Bill text : http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1582.html

          Result : 84 yes / 217 no
          (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?legislativebody=H)

          Was there some other bill put forward on Friday that's not yet on the
          NH House website?

          Thanks,
          Chris
        • Chris Lawless
          It was on 3/8. Check it out here: www.gencourt.state.nh.us/live/default.html. Click on afternoon session And fast forward to 4hrs and 8 minutes. The committee
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 13, 2006
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            It was on 3/8.

            Check it out here:
            www.gencourt.state.nh.us/live/default.html.

            Click on afternoon session And fast forward to 4hrs
            and 8 minutes.

            The committee voted to ITL the bill ('don't pass') but
            the floor rejected that ITL measure, 84 yes / 217 no

            Check out NHfree.com forum with the topic

            NH HOUSE REJECTS REAL ID

            for more info.

            --- Chris Barnhart <mr.barnhart@...> wrote:

            > Hi fellow FreeStaters,
            >
            > On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a
            > vote related to the
            > Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had
            > rejected
            > participating in the Real ID act! However, scanning
            > the house
            > records for Wednesday (3-8) I found the opposite:
            >
            > HB1582 : prohibiting New Hampshire from
            > participating in a national
            > identification card system.
            > Bill text :
            >
            http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1582.html
            >
            > Result : 84 yes / 217 no
            >
            (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?legislativebody=H)
            >
            > Was there some other bill put forward on Friday
            > that's not yet on the
            > NH House website?
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Chris
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Karl Beisel
            Chris, There is a quirk in the way the NH legislature works that is often confusing. The full body does not vote on the bill itself, but on whether or not to
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 13, 2006
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              Chris,

              There is a quirk in the way the NH legislature works that is often
              confusing. The full body does not vote on the bill itself, but on
              whether or not to accept the committee report. In this case the
              committee recommended the bill be killed ("Inexpedient to Legislate",
              or ITL). However, the full House disagreed with the committee and
              voted to overturn the committee report. Thus, a NAY vote is actually a
              vote in favor of the bill, and a YEA vote is a vote against it.

              I hope this clarifies things.

              - Karl

              > Hi fellow FreeStaters,
              >
              > On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a vote related to the
              > Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had rejected
              > participating in the Real ID act! However, scanning the house
              > records for Wednesday (3-8) I found the opposite:
              >
              > HB1582 : prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national
              > identification card system.
              > Bill text :
              http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1582.html
              >
              > Result : 84 yes / 217 no
              >
              (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?
              legislativebody=H)
              >
              > Was there some other bill put forward on Friday that's not yet on the
              > NH House website?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Chris
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
            • David Deedon
              Try this link for the roll call vote (the one in the post does not work)
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 13, 2006
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                Try this link for the roll call vote (the one in the post does not work)

                http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotedetail.asp?sessionyear=2006&voteno=113&body=H

                David D
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Chris Barnhart
                To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com ; NHPorcupines-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 04:00
                Subject: [FSP] NH House Real ID vote


                Hi fellow FreeStaters,

                On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a vote related to the
                Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had rejected
                participating in the Real ID act! However, scanning the house
                records for Wednesday (3-8) I found the opposite:

                HB1582 : prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national
                identification card system.
                Bill text : http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1582.html

                Result : 84 yes / 217 no
                (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?legislativebody=H)

                Was there some other bill put forward on Friday that's not yet on the
                NH House website?

                Thanks,
                Chris









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              • Bill Alleman
                ... (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?legislativebody=H) ... Fear not. How it happened was that the bill was on the
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 13, 2006
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                  Chris Barnhart wrote on 3/11/2006, 4:00 AM:

                  > On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a vote related to the
                  > Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had rejected
                  > participating in the Real ID act! However, scanning the house
                  > records for Wednesday (3-8) I found the opposite:
                  >
                  > HB1582 : prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national
                  > identification card system.
                  > Bill text : http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1582.html
                  >
                  > Result : 84 yes / 217 no
                  >
                  (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?legislativebody=H)

                  >
                  > Was there some other bill put forward on Friday that's not yet on the
                  > NH House website?

                  Fear not. How it happened was that the bill was on the 'Consent
                  Calendar' (stuff that isn't supposed to be controversial, all voted on
                  together, all up or all down) as 'ITL' ('Inexpedient To Legislate').
                  First it had to be pulled off the Consent Calendar so it could be
                  addressed separately. Then 'ITL' had to be voted on. It failed ("No, we
                  disagree that it's inexpedient to legislate") by the margin you cite.
                  Then it was moved 'OTP' ('Ought To Pass'), and another vote was taken on
                  _that_ motion. It passed resoundingly, and is off to the Senate.
                  --

                  --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
                  BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
                  allemanse.com=-
                  --= Proud Member - Reality-Based Community =--
                • Mike Lorrey
                  An excellent example of how you need to pay attention to what the bill status is coming into the vote. Whether it is OTP or ITL determines what a yea or nay
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 13, 2006
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                    An excellent example of how you need to pay attention to what the bill
                    status is coming into the vote. Whether it is OTP or ITL determines
                    what a yea or nay vote means.

                    "See, no isn't always no!" ;)

                    --- Bill Alleman <Bill245@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Chris Barnhart wrote on 3/11/2006, 4:00 AM:
                    >
                    > > On Friday (3-10) I heard that the NH House had a vote related to
                    > the
                    > > Real ID act. The news I heard was good - they had rejected
                    > > participating in the Real ID act! However, scanning the house
                    > > records for Wednesday (3-8) I found the opposite:
                    > >
                    > > HB1582 : prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a
                    > national
                    > > identification card system.
                    > > Bill text :
                    > http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1582.html
                    > >
                    > > Result : 84 yes / 217 no
                    > >
                    >
                    (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/rollcall/rollcallsbyvotesummary.asp?legislativebody=H)
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Was there some other bill put forward on Friday that's not yet on
                    > the
                    > > NH House website?
                    >
                    > Fear not. How it happened was that the bill was on the 'Consent
                    > Calendar' (stuff that isn't supposed to be controversial, all voted
                    > on
                    > together, all up or all down) as 'ITL' ('Inexpedient To Legislate').
                    > First it had to be pulled off the Consent Calendar so it could be
                    > addressed separately. Then 'ITL' had to be voted on. It failed ("No,
                    > we
                    > disagree that it's inexpedient to legislate") by the margin you cite.
                    >
                    > Then it was moved 'OTP' ('Ought To Pass'), and another vote was taken
                    > on
                    > _that_ motion. It passed resoundingly, and is off to the Senate.
                    > --
                    >
                    > --= Ya can't blame me: I vote for liberty. =--
                    > BikerBill=- ©¿©¬
                    > allemanse.com=-
                    > --= Proud Member - Reality-Based Community =--
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Mike Lorrey
                    President, Lorrey Aerospace
                    http://www.lorrey.biz
                    Founder, Constitution Park Foundation:
                    http://constitutionpark.blogspot.com
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