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RE: [FSP] Re: New Thoughts RE Porkfest

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  • Thomas Tuathal Simmons
    At the risk of being shot, since I attended neither Porcfest nor the dinner.... Has anyone seriously considered *not* holding them even remotely close
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 10 1:00 PM
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      At the risk of being shot, since I attended neither Porcfest nor the
      dinner....

      Has anyone seriously considered *not* holding them even remotely close
      together? Such as Porcfest in August and NHLA Dinner in Spring? (or around
      the Primary :-) :-) :-) ???? )

      It would certainlky make it a little easier for folks to 'balance' their New
      Hampshire interests rather than squeezing it into three days....

      Thom

      -----Original Message-----
      From: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:freestateproject@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Hardy Machia
      Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:50 AM
      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [FSP] Re: New Thoughts RE Porkfest


      Lloyd wrote:
      >Jane's suggestion of having the NHLA dinner on the Sunday following
      >Porkfest is a stroke of genius! Combine this with loosing the
      >scheduled visiting of towns, leaving it to the individuals, all of
      >the problems with Rogers are solved.

      I don't see how this helps anything from NHLA's point of view. If
      they have it on the last Sunday then people will be leaving the
      PorcFest Sunday morning to get home for work on Monday. There were
      some people that left Saturday afternoon this year so they could get
      home for work on Monday.

      Maybe having the NHLA dinner the first Saturday of Porc Fest then the
      people that are there for the whole week have something to do the
      first weekend.

      I don't see the big deal with having it on Saturday night of the last
      weekend. So we miss the circle of light? We were able to get back in
      time for it this year and it continued for another couple hours.

      Hardy

      --
      ____________________________________________________________________________
      __
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      802-372-9512 * www.catamount.com * www.freestateproject.org




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    • lloydbob1
      Its the circle of Liberty, Hardy. I understand what you are saying about Sunday afternoon, but, if people are leaving as early as Saturday to get home, than
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 10 1:19 PM
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        Its the circle of Liberty, Hardy. I understand what you are saying
        about Sunday afternoon, but, if people are leaving as early as
        Saturday to get home, than the're not going to the dinner anyway.
        This first Saturday sounds good to me, but, the NHLA won't go along
        with it because the Porkfest will not have attracted enough people by
        the first Saturday to make the Dinner a success. That is the key to
        this discussion. The Porkfest attracts people to attend the dinner,
        not, the other way around. Either Thursday or Friday night would be a
        good compromise. Saturday night is more important to the people who,
        actually, attend Porkfest than the NHLA dinner.

        --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Hardy Machia <hardy2@c...>
        wrote:
        > Lloyd wrote:
        > >Jane's suggestion of having the NHLA dinner on the Sunday following
        > >Porkfest is a stroke of genius! Combine this with loosing the
        > >scheduled visiting of towns, leaving it to the individuals, all of
        > >the problems with Rogers are solved.
        >
        > I don't see how this helps anything from NHLA's point of view. If
        > they have it on the last Sunday then people will be leaving the
        > PorcFest Sunday morning to get home for work on Monday. There were
        > some people that left Saturday afternoon this year so they could
        get
        > home for work on Monday.
        >
        > Maybe having the NHLA dinner the first Saturday of Porc Fest then
        the
        > people that are there for the whole week have something to do the
        > first weekend.
        >
        > I don't see the big deal with having it on Saturday night of the
        last
        > weekend. So we miss the circle of light? We were able to get back
        in
        > time for it this year and it continued for another couple hours.
        >
        > Hardy
        >
        > --
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        ________
        > Hardy Machia * Catamount Software * Liberty in our
        lifetime
        > 802-372-9512 * www.catamount.com *
        www.freestateproject.org
      • Keith Murphy
        From my perspective, it would be ideal for the Porc Fest organizers to split their speaker schedule between Friday and Saturday, finishing up at 3 pm Saturday
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 10 10:56 PM
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          From my perspective, it would be ideal for the Porc Fest organizers to
          split their speaker schedule between Friday and Saturday, finishing up
          at 3 pm Saturday afternoon. That would let me start the Liberty Dinner
          earlier next year, say, at about 5 pm, and finish up about 8 pm. That
          would be plenty of time to get back to Lancaster for a last night of
          socializing.

          Boom, all problems solved.

          Again, I'm more than happy to tweak the dinner schedule to avoid
          conflict to whatever extent is possible. The reason this year's dinner
          started so late was to avoid conflict with the last FSP speaker.

          Yes, Lloyd, I acknowledge that people will not come to northern NH to
          camp for a week for a three-hour dinner, but they will do it for a week
          of socializing, music, and beer with other libertarians. You're right,
          that's why the dinner must be held at the exact time that will optimize
          attendance. Restoring the dinner to it's originally planned Saturday
          time slot bumped attendance from 135 to 170. The dinner is simply one
          more option on the smorgasboard of options for Porc Fest attendees to
          choose from. They're free to attend the dinner, or to stay for the
          circle of liberty in Lancaster.

          I don't see anything wrong with giving people multiple options. It's
          the free market at work -- what are all the complaints about?

          Wait till you see who I'm trying to get for next year. They'll be
          scalping the tickets outside the front door. (wink)


          On Aug 10, 2005, at 4:19 PM, lloydbob1 wrote:

          > Its the circle of Liberty, Hardy. I understand what you are saying
          > about Sunday afternoon, but, if people are leaving as early as
          > Saturday to get home, than the're not going to the dinner anyway.
          > This first Saturday sounds good to me, but, the NHLA won't go along
          > with it because the Porkfest will not have attracted enough people by
          > the first Saturday to make the Dinner a success. That is the key to
          > this discussion. The Porkfest attracts people to attend the dinner,
          > not, the other way around. Either Thursday or Friday night would be a
          > good compromise. Saturday night is more important to the people who,
          > actually, attend Porkfest than the NHLA dinner.
        • Alan Robert Weiss
          ... If you don t want out-of-state members of the NHLA (who pay dues and who might be contributors of funds now, and labor/talent in the future), that s fine.
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 11 3:39 AM
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            Thomas Tuathal Simmons wrote:

            >At the risk of being shot, since I attended neither Porcfest nor the
            >dinner....
            >
            >Has anyone seriously considered *not* holding them even remotely close
            >together? Such as Porcfest in August and NHLA Dinner in Spring? (or around
            >the Primary :-) :-) :-) ???? )
            >
            >It would certainlky make it a little easier for folks to 'balance' their New
            >Hampshire interests rather than squeezing it into three days....
            >
            >Thom
            >
            >

            If you don't want out-of-state members of the NHLA (who pay dues and who
            might be contributors of funds now, and labor/talent in the future),
            that's fine.

            It cost me thousands and thousands of FRN's (dollars) for myself and my
            family to attend PorcFest this year. I daresay that making two trips to
            NH a year is an additional burden.

            At the risk of me being drawn and quartered, I did not attend the NHLA
            dinner this year (because the family declined Unanimous Consent and
            wanted to do other things), but because I was at PorcFest I re-joined
            and paid dues again. It was the availability of the dinner that I
            appreciated. I bought hats and other agit-prop tools.

            Look, it seems to me and others that the NHLA would be the "natural
            landing zone" for emigrating Porcupines as the in-gathering occurs, but
            if the NHLA wants to limit itself to existing NH residents, and not make
            accomidations with out of state members or supporters, it will never
            reach its potential. We will turn elsewhere. That is simply an
            observation. Your choice, folks.

            Having it associated with at least one other major event (PorcFest, or
            Freedom Summit) makes it much more likely to attend.

            Alan R. Weiss

            --
            Alan R. Weiss
            CEO, EEMBC Certification Laboratories and Synchromesh Computing
            6300 Bridgepoint Parkway
            Bridgepoint Square One, Suite 125
            Austin, Texas 78730 USA
            Voice: 512-219-0302 Fax: 512-219-0402
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            email: alan@... or aweiss@...
            or alan@...


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          • Jean Alexander
            ... Is the bump not at all credited to the fact that the PF was simply bigger this year? How much do you think was related to the day of the dinner and how
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 11 6:11 AM
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              On Aug 11, 2005, at 1:56 AM, Keith Murphy wrote:

              > Restoring the dinner to it's originally planned Saturday
              > time slot bumped attendance from 135 to 170.

              Is the bump not at all credited to the fact that the PF was simply
              bigger this year? How much do you think was related to the day of the
              dinner and how much to a larger pool of potential attendees?

              Jean
            • Brian Sullivan
              Starting earlier sounds good. I ll make the trek, but please arrange for the college to leave the air conditioning on for the duration of the dinner - it was
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 11 7:10 AM
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                Starting earlier sounds good. I'll make the trek, but please arrange for
                the college to leave the air conditioning on for the duration of the
                dinner - it was very uncomfortable for many of us. And, there was no more
                water for the last 60-90 minutes.

                Brian Sullivan

                From my perspective, it would be ideal for the Porc Fest organizers to
                split their speaker schedule between Friday and Saturday, finishing up
                at 3 pm Saturday afternoon. That would let me start the Liberty Dinner
                earlier next year, say, at about 5 pm, and finish up about 8 pm. That
                would be plenty of time to get back to Lancaster for a last night of
                socializing.

                Boom, all problems solved.

                Again, I'm more than happy to tweak the dinner schedule to avoid
                conflict to whatever extent is possible. The reason this year's dinner
                started so late was to avoid conflict with the last FSP speaker.

                Yes, Lloyd, I acknowledge that people will not come to northern NH to
                camp for a week for a three-hour dinner, but they will do it for a week
                of socializing, music, and beer with other libertarians. You're right,
                that's why the dinner must be held at the exact time that will optimize
                attendance. Restoring the dinner to it's originally planned Saturday
                time slot bumped attendance from 135 to 170. The dinner is simply one
                more option on the smorgasboard of options for Porc Fest attendees to
                choose from. They're free to attend the dinner, or to stay for the
                circle of liberty in Lancaster.

                I don't see anything wrong with giving people multiple options. It's
                the free market at work -- what are all the complaints about?

                Wait till you see who I'm trying to get for next year. They'll be
                scalping the tickets outside the front door. (wink)


                On Aug 10, 2005, at 4:19 PM, lloydbob1 wrote:

                > Its the circle of Liberty, Hardy. I understand what you are saying
                > about Sunday afternoon, but, if people are leaving as early as
                > Saturday to get home, than the're not going to the dinner anyway.
                > This first Saturday sounds good to me, but, the NHLA won't go along
                > with it because the Porkfest will not have attracted enough people by
                > the first Saturday to make the Dinner a success. That is the key to
                > this discussion. The Porkfest attracts people to attend the dinner,
                > not, the other way around. Either Thursday or Friday night would be a
                > good compromise. Saturday night is more important to the people who,
                > actually, attend Porkfest than the NHLA dinner.






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              • Joel
                ... A 25% increase in attendence is impressive. But, like Jean, I don t think all of that was simply because of the day of the week. For example, isn t NHLA
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 12 12:28 PM
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                  --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Jean Alexander
                  <jeanius2@m...> wrote:
                  > > On Aug 11, 2005, at 1:56 AM, Keith Murphy wrote:
                  > > > Restoring the dinner to it's originally planned Saturday
                  > > time slot bumped attendance from 135 to 170.
                  >
                  > Is the bump not at all credited to the fact that the PF was simply
                  > bigger this year? How much do you think was related to the day of
                  > the dinner and how much to a larger pool of potential attendees?

                  A 25% increase in attendence is impressive. But, like Jean, I don't
                  think all of that was simply because of the day of the week. For
                  example, isn't NHLA membership up over that 1 year's time? And there
                  were more awards given out this year as well. Those must have
                  contributed to the increase as well.

                  Joel
                • Joel
                  ... From your perspective, that would be ideal. But what about the people who are not attending the dinner? The last Saturday has been the BUSIEST day of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 12 12:38 PM
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                    --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Keith Murphy
                    <keithrmurphy@c...> wrote:
                    > From my perspective, it would be ideal for the Porc Fest
                    > organizers to split their speaker schedule between Friday and
                    > Saturday, finishing up at 3 pm Saturday afternoon.... Boom, all
                    > problems solved.

                    From your perspective, that would be ideal. But what about the
                    people who are not attending the dinner? The last Saturday has been
                    the BUSIEST day of Porc Fest the last few years. This year, there
                    were a dozen in-state Porcs who drove up for that one day. By
                    cutting off all Porc Fest activities in the early afternoon, you may
                    discourage NH residents from attending even the Porc Fest, as well
                    as make other Porcs feel like they are left out of things if they
                    don't buy a ticket to the LD.

                    All this assumes that conditions in 2006 will be exactly the same as
                    in 2005. If they do in fact repeat, Amy and I will not leave the
                    busiest day of Porc Fest to drive to Plymouth for the Liberty
                    Dinner. Keith, you throw a hell of a dinner. But for us, the
                    inconvience will make the cost of a ticket too high.

                    Joel





                    >
                    > Again, I'm more than happy to tweak the dinner schedule to avoid
                    > conflict to whatever extent is possible. The reason this year's
                    dinner
                    > started so late was to avoid conflict with the last FSP speaker.
                    >
                    > Yes, Lloyd, I acknowledge that people will not come to northern NH
                    to
                    > camp for a week for a three-hour dinner, but they will do it for a
                    week
                    > of socializing, music, and beer with other libertarians. You're
                    right,
                    > that's why the dinner must be held at the exact time that will
                    optimize
                    > attendance. Restoring the dinner to it's originally planned
                    Saturday
                    > time slot bumped attendance from 135 to 170. The dinner is simply
                    one
                    > more option on the smorgasboard of options for Porc Fest attendees
                    to
                    > choose from. They're free to attend the dinner, or to stay for
                    the
                    > circle of liberty in Lancaster.
                    >
                    > I don't see anything wrong with giving people multiple options.
                    It's
                    > the free market at work -- what are all the complaints about?
                    >
                    > Wait till you see who I'm trying to get for next year. They'll be
                    > scalping the tickets outside the front door. (wink)
                    >
                    >
                    > On Aug 10, 2005, at 4:19 PM, lloydbob1 wrote:
                    >
                    > > Its the circle of Liberty, Hardy. I understand what you are
                    saying
                    > > about Sunday afternoon, but, if people are leaving as early as
                    > > Saturday to get home, than the're not going to the dinner anyway.
                    > > This first Saturday sounds good to me, but, the NHLA won't go
                    along
                    > > with it because the Porkfest will not have attracted enough
                    people by
                    > > the first Saturday to make the Dinner a success. That is the
                    key to
                    > > this discussion. The Porkfest attracts people to attend the
                    dinner,
                    > > not, the other way around. Either Thursday or Friday night would
                    be a
                    > > good compromise. Saturday night is more important to the people
                    who,
                    > > actually, attend Porkfest than the NHLA dinner.
                  • Keith Murphy
                    OK, let me say this one more time. I only care about one thing: making the attendance for the Liberty Dinner the highest it can possibly be. That s it. Nothing
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 12 8:24 PM
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                      OK, let me say this one more time.

                      I only care about one thing: making the attendance for the Liberty
                      Dinner the highest it can possibly be.

                      That's it.

                      Nothing else.

                      I only care about Porc Fest scheduling, and the people who choose not
                      to attend the dinner (choice being the operative word) to the extent
                      that these factors interact with the dinner attendance. I don't really
                      care about the Porc Fest drive, location, schedule, speakers, or
                      anything else except for how they impact attendance. I realize I may
                      lose a few people next year who decide to stay in Lancaster, but I
                      could reasonably expect to lose 40-odd native NH residents if I
                      switched to Friday.

                      We can't have the dinner Friday night without severely impacting the
                      attendance from natives who are not staying up at Lancaster, and I
                      can't have it Sunday without severely impacting the attendance from
                      visiting FSP members. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for a
                      time slot other than Saturday evening -- at least one not based on the
                      personal interests of a few. I must overlook the interests of a few
                      and do what is best for the entire NHLA, and that means Saturday
                      evening.

                      Joel, I'm sorry that the drive to Lancaster is long, but I have no
                      control over the basic laws of geography and physics. If you choose
                      not to attend the dinner (there's that word again) due to timing or
                      distance concerns, then I respect your decision.

                      On Aug 12, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Joel wrote:

                      > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Keith Murphy
                      > <keithrmurphy@c...> wrote:
                      >> From my perspective, it would be ideal for the Porc Fest
                      >> organizers to split their speaker schedule between Friday and
                      >> Saturday, finishing up at 3 pm Saturday afternoon.... Boom, all
                      >> problems solved.
                      >
                      > From your perspective, that would be ideal.

                      From the perspective of the NHLA's bank account and political power
                      base, as well.

                      > But what about the
                      > people who are not attending the dinner?

                      Why would I care about people that are not attending the dinner? I'm
                      not working for them.

                      > The last Saturday has been
                      > the BUSIEST day of Porc Fest the last few years.

                      Yes, and the Liberty Dinner is just one more thing on the smorgasboard
                      for them to consider. Come, or don't. It's up to each individual.
                      It's not as if the FSP has a copyright on Saturday night. Other
                      completely distinct organizations have an equal right to schedule
                      events for that evening, if it suits them. Look at it this way: next
                      year's Porc Fest organizers have a full year's notice that the Liberty
                      Dinner will be held on the second Saturday evening, likely between 5 pm
                      and 8 pm. Maybe the organizers will take that into consideration.
                      That's up to them.

                      Tell you what -- if 150 people email me that they will come to the
                      Liberty Dinner if it is held on Friday evening next year, AND I can get
                      two great speakers for a Friday evening (assuredly harder to book than
                      a Saturday) I'll make the switch. Happily.

                      > This year, there
                      > were a dozen in-state Porcs who drove up for that one day. By
                      > cutting off all Porc Fest activities in the early afternoon, you may
                      > discourage NH residents from attending even the Porc Fest, as well
                      > as make other Porcs feel like they are left out of things if they
                      > don't buy a ticket to the LD.

                      1. In my opinion, anyone who doesn't buy a ticket to the Liberty
                      Dinner IS indeed missing a good event for a great cause. Although, to
                      be fair, some have said that they didn't go to the dinner and don't
                      regret their decision. Which is entirely their choice, and one that I
                      respect.

                      2. Hope this doesn't sound harsh, but I don't care about the impact on
                      Porc Fest. I don't work for the FSP, I work for the NHLA. Usually
                      what's good for one is good for both, and that's just great. In this
                      instance that's not the case. I'm not going to do something wrong for
                      the NHLA, and I don't expect the Porc Fest organizers to do wrong by
                      the FSP.

                      >
                      > All this assumes that conditions in 2006 will be exactly the same as
                      > in 2005. If they do in fact repeat, Amy and I will not leave the
                      > busiest day of Porc Fest to drive to Plymouth for the Liberty
                      > Dinner. Keith, you throw a hell of a dinner. But for us, the
                      > inconvience will make the cost of a ticket too high.

                      Again, I will be thrilled to work with the 2006 Porc Fest Czar to
                      minimize or eliminate conflict with the scheduled slate of speakers.
                      However, if that once again proves impossible, and people are forced to
                      choose between the Liberty Dinner and socializing at Porc Fest...

                      Well, I don't begrudge anyone that decision, yourself included. Hope
                      you can make it next year.
                    • redbeardsm@aol.com
                      I got WAY behind on my emails, and am just now catching up from the summer. I saw the title of this message and my first thought was Porkfest? What does the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 12 10:47 PM
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                        I got WAY behind on my emails, and am just now catching up from the summer.

                        I saw the title of this message and my first thought was "Porkfest? What does
                        the "transportation" bill have to do with the FSP? Then I read the message
                        and found out that Por"C"fest was the topic.

                        Scott


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