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Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?

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  • Kat
    If you can, please help us out by answering this poll. From Jean Alexander: We are reviewing and evaluating our recruiting strategy to refine it for the
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      If you can, please help us out by answering this poll.

      From Jean Alexander:
      We are reviewing and evaluating our recruiting strategy to refine it
      for the future. Please email me (jalexander@...)
      and/or post here with any specific information. This will help us
      hone our message to get the best information out there and narrow our
      recruiting efforts most efficiently. Please post specifics about your
      obstacles such as if you picked "I don't like NH", post specifics such
      as "It's too cold." The poll allows only one response. If you have
      more than one reason please email me or post with the additional reasons.

      Thanks!

      Jean

      http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=7941
    • greg_ldssdc047
      ... reasons. Whenever I m talking to someone about the FSP, and they tell me. I could never live somewhere so cold, or something along those lines, I reply,
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Kat" <bookish_lass@y...> wrote:
        > If you can, please help us out by answering this poll.
        >
        > From Jean Alexander:
        > We are reviewing and evaluating our recruiting strategy to refine it
        > for the future. Please email me (jalexander@f...)
        > and/or post here with any specific information. This will help us
        > hone our message to get the best information out there and narrow our
        > recruiting efforts most efficiently. Please post specifics about your
        > obstacles such as if you picked "I don't like NH", post specifics such
        > as "It's too cold." The poll allows only one response. If you have
        > more than one reason please email me or post with the additional
        reasons.

        Whenever I'm talking to someone about the FSP, and they tell me. "I
        could never live somewhere so cold," or something along those lines, I
        reply, "That's okay! We're only looking for people who care
        passionately enough about liberty that they're willing to sacrifice
        some personal comfort for it.

        I might add, "I imagine we'd have no problems coming up with 20,000
        people to go to South Florida, but they'd probably all get there, and
        instead of becoming activists, just sit back drinking Marguaritas by
        the pool."

        Really, people... we're looking for 20,000 people who CARE ABOUT
        LIBERTY. If they put being warm year-round as a higher priority in
        their lives than living free, then WE DON'T WANT THEM... do we?

        Greg
      • Mike Lorrey
        I want to mention, that as I ve been in FL for the last week and a half, that I feel cooler here due to the prevalence of A/C here, than I ve felt in a while
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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          I want to mention, that as I've been in FL for the last week and a
          half, that I feel cooler here due to the prevalence of A/C here, than
          I've felt in a while in NH. Surprisingly, I would expect people to
          complain more about the lack of widespread A/C in NH, rather than
          winter conditions. In winter, you can always turn the heat up.....

          =====
          Mike Lorrey
          Chairman, Free Town Land Development
          "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
          It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
          -William Pitt (1759-1806)
          Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism



          __________________________________
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        • Beth Jezik
          Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or is this the idea of freedom in the new amerika? REPORT CARD Marx s 10 planks of the communist
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 25, 2004
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            Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or is this the
            idea of freedom in the new amerika?
            REPORT CARD

            Marx's 10 planks of the communist manifesto are alive and well in the USA as
            follows:

            1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to
            public purposes. *real estate* DONE
            2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. *IRS* DONE
            3) Abolition of all rights of inheritance. *inheritance tax* DONE
            4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. *non US
            citizen, "practicing without" license, registration or permit, terrorism*
            DONE
            5) Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a
            national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. *the federal
            reserve* DONE
            6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of
            the state. *commerce clause of the "constitution, state police, etc."* DONE
            (FCC)(DOT)
            7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state;
            the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the
            soil generally in accordance with a common plan. *corporations, the EPA,
            land management* DONE
            8) Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies,
            especially for agriculture. *social security, migrant workers and minimum
            wage* IN PROGRESS
            9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual
            abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable
            distribution of the populace over the country. *suburbia, commuting to work,
            etc.* IN PROGRESS
            10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of
            children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with
            industrial production, etc. *public and private schools, "higher" education,
            evolution* DONE
            -- Communist Manifesto

            iT IS JUST LIKE KRUSCHEV SAID IN 1954: "WE DO NOT HAVE TO FIGHT A WAR WITH
            THE WEST - THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL RAISE THE SOCIALIST FLAG OVER THEIR OWN
            COUNTRY." HENCE, A COLD WAR SINCE THE END OF WW 2, WHICH HAS DRAINED THE
            WEALTH OF THIS COUNTRY. WE ENTERED THE 20TH CENTURY IN A GOLD SILVER
            STANDARD, WITH LITTLE DEBT. WE LEFT THE 20TH CENTURY WITH 6 TRILLION
            DOLLARS PUBLIC DEBT ANDF OVER 22 TRILLION DOLLARS PRIVATE DEBT.
            THIS IS THE LEGACY WE LEAVE OUR CHILDREN. THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY OUGHT
            TO BE PROUD OF THEMSELVES - WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLES TO ENTER INTO SLAVERY
            VOLUNTARILY AND WITH A SMILE ON OUR FACES.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey@...>
            To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 4:59 PM
            Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?


            > I want to mention, that as I've been in FL for the last week and a
            > half, that I feel cooler here due to the prevalence of A/C here, than
            > I've felt in a while in NH. Surprisingly, I would expect people to
            > complain more about the lack of widespread A/C in NH, rather than
            > winter conditions. In winter, you can always turn the heat up.....
            >
            > =====
            > Mike Lorrey
            > Chairman, Free Town Land Development
            > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
            > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
            > -William Pitt (1759-1806)
            > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
            > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Alan R. Weiss
            Beth, I know you relatively well. Remember me? Its Alan. You and Rick McG. are my friends. I m also a former Vice President of the Free State Project. Now
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 26, 2004
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              Beth, I know you relatively well. Remember me? Its Alan. You and Rick McG. are my friends. I'm also a former Vice President of the Free State Project. Now I'm an Organizer, which is a fun job and ANYONE can become an Organizer if they want to work towards the goal.

              Beth, the FSP isn't a solve-all for the world's unlibertarian problems. What it is, quite simply, is a Migration Society designed to encourage 20,000 or more libertarians and liberty-minded people to move to the Free State (selected in a fair vote to be New Hampshire).

              Once people start showing up, the ONLY requirement according to the Statement of Principles is that they work towards a society where people will work towards liberty (as they see fit).

              Statement of Intent

              I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.



              Beth, the FSP isn't the Libertarian Party, and its not "up to the FSP" to cure our ills (we probably agree on 99% of them!). Its up to INDIVIDUALS to do that. Now then, when people GET to New Hampshire, they're free to join whatever liberty movements they wish. Many are hooking up with the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Doubtlessly many will join the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire. Some will join pro-Hemp groups, some pro-Homeschooling groups, some pro-gunny groups, and MOST will probably join ALL of 'em <smile> A whole bunch of us want to work to overturn bullshit "licensing" laws that prevent you from practicing your healing arts (and hey, everyone, Beth Jezik is a very good healer).

              I hope this helps clarify things. The secret is to get people SIGNED UP to move, encourage them to move, and then we'll "form up" in New Hampshire and kick some major league statist gluteus maximus' !

              Yours,

              Alan R. Weiss

              Austin

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Beth Jezik
              To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 8:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?


              Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or is this the
              idea of freedom in the new amerika?
              REPORT CARD

              Marx's 10 planks of the communist manifesto are alive and well in the USA as
              follows:

              1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to
              public purposes. *real estate* DONE
              2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. *IRS* DONE
              3) Abolition of all rights of inheritance. *inheritance tax* DONE
              4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. *non US
              citizen, "practicing without" license, registration or permit, terrorism*
              DONE
              5) Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a
              national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. *the federal
              reserve* DONE
              6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of
              the state. *commerce clause of the "constitution, state police, etc."* DONE
              (FCC)(DOT)
              7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state;
              the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the
              soil generally in accordance with a common plan. *corporations, the EPA,
              land management* DONE
              8) Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies,
              especially for agriculture. *social security, migrant workers and minimum
              wage* IN PROGRESS
              9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual
              abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable
              distribution of the populace over the country. *suburbia, commuting to work,
              etc.* IN PROGRESS
              10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of
              children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with
              industrial production, etc. *public and private schools, "higher" education,
              evolution* DONE
              -- Communist Manifesto

              iT IS JUST LIKE KRUSCHEV SAID IN 1954: "WE DO NOT HAVE TO FIGHT A WAR WITH
              THE WEST - THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL RAISE THE SOCIALIST FLAG OVER THEIR OWN
              COUNTRY." HENCE, A COLD WAR SINCE THE END OF WW 2, WHICH HAS DRAINED THE
              WEALTH OF THIS COUNTRY. WE ENTERED THE 20TH CENTURY IN A GOLD SILVER
              STANDARD, WITH LITTLE DEBT. WE LEFT THE 20TH CENTURY WITH 6 TRILLION
              DOLLARS PUBLIC DEBT ANDF OVER 22 TRILLION DOLLARS PRIVATE DEBT.
              THIS IS THE LEGACY WE LEAVE OUR CHILDREN. THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY OUGHT
              TO BE PROUD OF THEMSELVES - WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLES TO ENTER INTO SLAVERY
              VOLUNTARILY AND WITH A SMILE ON OUR FACES.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey@...>
              To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 4:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?


              > I want to mention, that as I've been in FL for the last week and a
              > half, that I feel cooler here due to the prevalence of A/C here, than
              > I've felt in a while in NH. Surprisingly, I would expect people to
              > complain more about the lack of widespread A/C in NH, rather than
              > winter conditions. In winter, you can always turn the heat up.....
              >
              > =====
              > Mike Lorrey
              > Chairman, Free Town Land Development
              > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
              > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
              > -William Pitt (1759-1806)
              > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
              > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >



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            • Beth Jezik
              Alan, Of course I remember you. I won t be moving because I cannot get work unless I shell out about 10k to get licensed . That is no free state for me!
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 26, 2004
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                Alan,
                Of course I remember you.
                I won't be moving because I cannot get work unless I shell out about 10k to
                get 'licensed'. That is no free state for me!

                Alan, where I have a big problem is there is no way anyone can change the
                system at the level of corruption that is in place. Freedom will be when we
                expose this fraud completely, and nationally.

                I would rather we have a cup of coffee and discuss things... hoping that you
                will listen to what I know to be, and I listen to you as well. I really do
                have concerns. I am in Austin every Tue, Wed, and Sun. Working or doing a
                class, and can make time to sit and talk.

                I really appreciate the note.
                Beth

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Alan R. Weiss" <alan@...>
                To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>; <bjezik@...>
                Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 5:20 PM
                Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?


                > Beth, I know you relatively well. Remember me? Its Alan. You and Rick
                McG. are my friends. I'm also a former Vice President of the Free State
                Project. Now I'm an Organizer, which is a fun job and ANYONE can become an
                Organizer if they want to work towards the goal.
                >
                > Beth, the FSP isn't a solve-all for the world's unlibertarian problems.
                What it is, quite simply, is a Migration Society designed to encourage
                20,000 or more libertarians and liberty-minded people to move to the Free
                State (selected in a fair vote to be New Hampshire).
                >
                > Once people start showing up, the ONLY requirement according to the
                Statement of Principles is that they work towards a society where people
                will work towards liberty (as they see fit).
                >
                > Statement of Intent
                >
                > I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire.
                Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of
                a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of
                life, liberty, and property.
                >
                >
                >
                > Beth, the FSP isn't the Libertarian Party, and its not "up to the FSP" to
                cure our ills (we probably agree on 99% of them!). Its up to INDIVIDUALS to
                do that. Now then, when people GET to New Hampshire, they're free to join
                whatever liberty movements they wish. Many are hooking up with the New
                Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Doubtlessly many will join the Libertarian
                Party of New Hampshire. Some will join pro-Hemp groups, some
                pro-Homeschooling groups, some pro-gunny groups, and MOST will probably join
                ALL of 'em <smile> A whole bunch of us want to work to overturn bullshit
                "licensing" laws that prevent you from practicing your healing arts (and
                hey, everyone, Beth Jezik is a very good healer).
                >
                > I hope this helps clarify things. The secret is to get people SIGNED UP
                to move, encourage them to move, and then we'll "form up" in New Hampshire
                and kick some major league statist gluteus maximus' !
                >
                > Yours,
                >
                > Alan R. Weiss
                >
                > Austin
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Beth Jezik
                > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 8:36 PM
                > Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?
                >
                >
                > Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or is this
                the
                > idea of freedom in the new amerika?
                > REPORT CARD
                >
                > Marx's 10 planks of the communist manifesto are alive and well in the
                USA as
                > follows:
                >
                > 1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to
                > public purposes. *real estate* DONE
                > 2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. *IRS* DONE
                > 3) Abolition of all rights of inheritance. *inheritance tax* DONE
                > 4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. *non US
                > citizen, "practicing without" license, registration or permit,
                terrorism*
                > DONE
                > 5) Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a
                > national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. *the federal
                > reserve* DONE
                > 6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he
                hands of
                > the state. *commerce clause of the "constitution, state police, etc."*
                DONE
                > (FCC)(DOT)
                > 7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the
                state;
                > the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the
                > soil generally in accordance with a common plan. *corporations, the EPA,
                > land management* DONE
                > 8) Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies,
                > especially for agriculture. *social security, migrant workers and
                minimum
                > wage* IN PROGRESS
                > 9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual
                > abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more
                equable
                > distribution of the populace over the country. *suburbia, commuting to
                work,
                > etc.* IN PROGRESS
                > 10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of
                > children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education
                with
                > industrial production, etc. *public and private schools, "higher"
                education,
                > evolution* DONE
                > -- Communist Manifesto
                >
                > iT IS JUST LIKE KRUSCHEV SAID IN 1954: "WE DO NOT HAVE TO FIGHT A WAR
                WITH
                > THE WEST - THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL RAISE THE SOCIALIST FLAG OVER THEIR
                OWN
                > COUNTRY." HENCE, A COLD WAR SINCE THE END OF WW 2, WHICH HAS DRAINED
                THE
                > WEALTH OF THIS COUNTRY. WE ENTERED THE 20TH CENTURY IN A GOLD SILVER
                > STANDARD, WITH LITTLE DEBT. WE LEFT THE 20TH CENTURY WITH 6 TRILLION
                > DOLLARS PUBLIC DEBT ANDF OVER 22 TRILLION DOLLARS PRIVATE DEBT.
                > THIS IS THE LEGACY WE LEAVE OUR CHILDREN. THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY
                OUGHT
                > TO BE PROUD OF THEMSELVES - WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLES TO ENTER INTO
                SLAVERY
                > VOLUNTARILY AND WITH A SMILE ON OUR FACES.
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey@...>
                > To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 4:59 PM
                > Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?
                >
                >
                > > I want to mention, that as I've been in FL for the last week and a
                > > half, that I feel cooler here due to the prevalence of A/C here, than
                > > I've felt in a while in NH. Surprisingly, I would expect people to
                > > complain more about the lack of widespread A/C in NH, rather than
                > > winter conditions. In winter, you can always turn the heat up.....
                > >
                > > =====
                > > Mike Lorrey
                > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                > > -William Pitt (1759-1806)
                > > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > __________________________________
                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
                > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                >
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                > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                > Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
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              • Mike Lorrey
                If you are a naturopath, perhaps you should contact Gene Fitzpatrick at 6038815681, who has a practice here in NH. He can likely help. ... ===== Mike Lorrey
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 27, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  If you are a naturopath, perhaps you should contact Gene Fitzpatrick at
                  6038815681, who has a practice here in NH. He can likely help.

                  --- Beth Jezik <bjezik@...> wrote:

                  > Alan,
                  > Of course I remember you.
                  > I won't be moving because I cannot get work unless I shell out about
                  > 10k to
                  > get 'licensed'. That is no free state for me!
                  >
                  > Alan, where I have a big problem is there is no way anyone can change
                  > the
                  > system at the level of corruption that is in place. Freedom will be
                  > when we
                  > expose this fraud completely, and nationally.
                  >
                  > I would rather we have a cup of coffee and discuss things... hoping
                  > that you
                  > will listen to what I know to be, and I listen to you as well. I
                  > really do
                  > have concerns. I am in Austin every Tue, Wed, and Sun. Working or
                  > doing a
                  > class, and can make time to sit and talk.
                  >
                  > I really appreciate the note.
                  > Beth
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Alan R. Weiss" <alan@...>
                  > To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>; <bjezik@...>
                  > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 5:20 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?
                  >
                  >
                  > > Beth, I know you relatively well. Remember me? Its Alan. You and
                  > Rick
                  > McG. are my friends. I'm also a former Vice President of the Free
                  > State
                  > Project. Now I'm an Organizer, which is a fun job and ANYONE can
                  > become an
                  > Organizer if they want to work towards the goal.
                  > >
                  > > Beth, the FSP isn't a solve-all for the world's unlibertarian
                  > problems.
                  > What it is, quite simply, is a Migration Society designed to
                  > encourage
                  > 20,000 or more libertarians and liberty-minded people to move to the
                  > Free
                  > State (selected in a fair vote to be New Hampshire).
                  > >
                  > > Once people start showing up, the ONLY requirement according to the
                  > Statement of Principles is that they work towards a society where
                  > people
                  > will work towards liberty (as they see fit).
                  > >
                  > > Statement of Intent
                  > >
                  > > I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New
                  > Hampshire.
                  > Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the
                  > creation of
                  > a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the
                  > protection of
                  > life, liberty, and property.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Beth, the FSP isn't the Libertarian Party, and its not "up to the
                  > FSP" to
                  > cure our ills (we probably agree on 99% of them!). Its up to
                  > INDIVIDUALS to
                  > do that. Now then, when people GET to New Hampshire, they're free to
                  > join
                  > whatever liberty movements they wish. Many are hooking up with the
                  > New
                  > Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Doubtlessly many will join the
                  > Libertarian
                  > Party of New Hampshire. Some will join pro-Hemp groups, some
                  > pro-Homeschooling groups, some pro-gunny groups, and MOST will
                  > probably join
                  > ALL of 'em <smile> A whole bunch of us want to work to overturn
                  > bullshit
                  > "licensing" laws that prevent you from practicing your healing arts
                  > (and
                  > hey, everyone, Beth Jezik is a very good healer).
                  > >
                  > > I hope this helps clarify things. The secret is to get people
                  > SIGNED UP
                  > to move, encourage them to move, and then we'll "form up" in New
                  > Hampshire
                  > and kick some major league statist gluteus maximus' !
                  > >
                  > > Yours,
                  > >
                  > > Alan R. Weiss
                  > >
                  > > Austin
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Beth Jezik
                  > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 8:36 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or
                  > is this
                  > the
                  > > idea of freedom in the new amerika?
                  > > REPORT CARD
                  > >
                  > > Marx's 10 planks of the communist manifesto are alive and well in
                  > the
                  > USA as
                  > > follows:
                  > >
                  > > 1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of
                  > land to
                  > > public purposes. *real estate* DONE
                  > > 2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. *IRS* DONE
                  > > 3) Abolition of all rights of inheritance. *inheritance tax*
                  > DONE
                  > > 4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. *non
                  > US
                  > > citizen, "practicing without" license, registration or permit,
                  > terrorism*
                  > > DONE
                  > > 5) Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means
                  > of a
                  > > national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. *the
                  > federal
                  > > reserve* DONE
                  > > 6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in
                  > he
                  > hands of
                  > > the state. *commerce clause of the "constitution, state police,
                  > etc."*
                  > DONE
                  > > (FCC)(DOT)
                  > > 7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by
                  > the
                  > state;
                  > > the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement
                  > of the
                  > > soil generally in accordance with a common plan. *corporations,
                  > the EPA,
                  > > land management* DONE
                  > > 8) Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial
                  > armies,
                  > > especially for agriculture. *social security, migrant workers and
                  > minimum
                  > > wage* IN PROGRESS
                  > > 9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries;
                  > gradual
                  > > abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a
                  > more
                  > equable
                  > > distribution of the populace over the country. *suburbia,
                  > commuting to
                  > work,
                  > > etc.* IN PROGRESS
                  > > 10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition
                  > of
                  > > children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of
                  > education
                  > with
                  > > industrial production, etc. *public and private schools, "higher"
                  > education,
                  > > evolution* DONE
                  > > -- Communist Manifesto
                  > >
                  > > iT IS JUST LIKE KRUSCHEV SAID IN 1954: "WE DO NOT HAVE TO FIGHT A
                  > WAR
                  > WITH
                  > > THE WEST - THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL RAISE THE SOCIALIST FLAG OVER
                  > THEIR
                  > OWN
                  > > COUNTRY." HENCE, A COLD WAR SINCE THE END OF WW 2, WHICH HAS
                  > DRAINED
                  > THE
                  > > WEALTH OF THIS COUNTRY. WE ENTERED THE 20TH CENTURY IN A GOLD
                  > SILVER
                  > > STANDARD, WITH LITTLE DEBT. WE LEFT THE 20TH CENTURY WITH 6
                  > TRILLION
                  > > DOLLARS PUBLIC DEBT ANDF OVER 22 TRILLION DOLLARS PRIVATE DEBT.
                  > > THIS IS THE LEGACY WE LEAVE OUR CHILDREN. THE PEOPLE OF THIS
                  > COUNTRY
                  > OUGHT
                  > > TO BE PROUD OF THEMSELVES - WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLES TO ENTER INTO
                  > SLAVERY
                  > > VOLUNTARILY AND WITH A SMILE ON OUR FACES.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey@...>
                  > > To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 4:59 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Obstacles to Becoming a Participant?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > I want to mention, that as I've been in FL for the last week
                  > and a
                  > > > half, that I feel cooler here due to the prevalence of A/C
                  > here, than
                  > > > I've felt in a while in NH. Surprisingly, I would expect people
                  > to
                  > > > complain more about the lack of widespread A/C in NH, rather
                  > than
                  > > > winter conditions. In winter, you can always turn the heat
                  > up.....
                  > > >
                  > > > =====
                  > > > Mike Lorrey
                  > > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                  > > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                  > > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                  > > > -William Pitt
                  > (1759-1806)
                  > > > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > __________________________________
                  > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
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                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                  > >
                  >
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                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/
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                  > > freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
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                  > > Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
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                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  =====
                  Mike Lorrey
                  Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                  "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                  It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                  -William Pitt (1759-1806)
                  Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism



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                • Randy
                  ... reasons. ... I ve been a friend of the project for over a year. My son and I attended the Great Western Conference in Montana last year. I am so, so
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 27, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Kat" <bookish_lass@y...> wrote:
                    > If you can, please help us out by answering this poll.
                    >
                    > From Jean Alexander:
                    > We are reviewing and evaluating our recruiting strategy to refine it
                    > for the future. Please email me (jalexander@f...)
                    > and/or post here with any specific information. This will help us
                    > hone our message to get the best information out there and narrow our
                    > recruiting efforts most efficiently. Please post specifics about your
                    > obstacles such as if you picked "I don't like NH", post specifics such
                    > as "It's too cold." The poll allows only one response. If you have
                    > more than one reason please email me or post with the additional
                    reasons.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >

                    I've been a friend of the project for over a year. My son and I
                    attended the Great Western Conference in Montana last year. I am so,
                    so tempted.

                    My reasons:
                    I am divorced and my ex has the kids. I do not wish to move away from
                    them.
                    My current wife is one of 14 siblings and all but one are within half
                    an hour's drive, plus nieces ... She does not wish to move.

                    Dual residency has occurred to me. Any ideas how this could work?

                    Randy Anderson
                    Minnesota

                    > Jean
                    >
                    >
                    http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=7941
                  • Jason P Sorens
                    ... The standard in NH for residency is that your primary residence needs to be there, where primary residence is understood as the place to which you
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 27, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <rallena3@a...>
                      wrote:
                      > Dual residency has occurred to me. Any ideas how this could work?
                      >
                      > Randy Anderson
                      > Minnesota

                      The standard in NH for residency is that your primary residence
                      needs to be there, where "primary residence" is understood as the
                      place to which you regularly return after absence. I'm not sure how
                      exactly that would be analyzed in a specific case, but it's also
                      worth remembering that the FSP generally counts on Participants
                      being involved in the state at least several months out of the year.

                      One idea might be to bring the family to New Hampshire for a
                      vacation. You could meet some Free Staters there, get a feel for
                      the state, & maybe your family would decide that they'd really enjoy
                      living there. Even if they didn't, you'd probably still have a
                      great vacation. :)
                    • John David Galt
                      ... I would not advice trying any such thing without advice from a lawyer. It could lead to double taxation and possibly fraud charges.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 27, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Randy wrote:
                        > Dual residency has occurred to me. Any ideas how this could work?

                        I would not advice trying any such thing without advice from a lawyer.
                        It could lead to double taxation and possibly fraud charges.
                      • Mike Lorrey
                        I for one am adamantly against dual residency. Not only is it currently illegal in NH (in order to get a NH drivers license, you need to both prove residency
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 27, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I for one am adamantly against dual residency. Not only is it currently
                          illegal in NH (in order to get a NH drivers license, you need to both
                          prove residency AND surrender your DL from your other state, as the
                          Interstate Drivers License Compact only allows one DL per person), but
                          allowing it would open a floodgate for statists to flood the state and
                          the polls with rabid statist votes who won't have to live with the
                          consequences of their actions...

                          --- Jason P Sorens <jason.sorens@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <rallena3@a...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Dual residency has occurred to me. Any ideas how this could work?
                          > >
                          > > Randy Anderson
                          > > Minnesota
                          >
                          > The standard in NH for residency is that your primary residence
                          > needs to be there, where "primary residence" is understood as the
                          > place to which you regularly return after absence. I'm not sure how
                          > exactly that would be analyzed in a specific case, but it's also
                          > worth remembering that the FSP generally counts on Participants
                          > being involved in the state at least several months out of the year.
                          >
                          > One idea might be to bring the family to New Hampshire for a
                          > vacation. You could meet some Free Staters there, get a feel for
                          > the state, & maybe your family would decide that they'd really enjoy
                          > living there. Even if they didn't, you'd probably still have a
                          > great vacation. :)
                          >
                          >
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                          =====
                          Mike Lorrey
                          Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                          "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                          It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                          -William Pitt (1759-1806)
                          Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism



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                        • Jason P Sorens
                          ... currently ... both ... but ... and ... Yeah, there s definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places simultaneously; I didn t mean to propose that.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 28, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > I for one am adamantly against dual residency. Not only is it
                            currently
                            > illegal in NH (in order to get a NH drivers license, you need to
                            both
                            > prove residency AND surrender your DL from your other state, as the
                            > Interstate Drivers License Compact only allows one DL per person),
                            but
                            > allowing it would open a floodgate for statists to flood the state
                            and
                            > the polls with rabid statist votes who won't have to live with the
                            > consequences of their actions...

                            Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places
                            simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that. But as one native
                            Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                            winter. So you don't have to be there year-round every year to be a
                            resident.
                          • Jean Alexander
                            ... We were planning on doing this before I lost my mother last year. We were going to become NH residents but spend time both in NH and Oregon/California.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 28, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Aug 28, 2004, at 5:05 AM, Jason P Sorens wrote:
                              >
                              > Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places
                              > simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that.  But as one native
                              > Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                              > winter.  So you don't have to be there year-round every year to be a
                              > resident.

                              We were planning on doing this before I lost my mother last year. We
                              were going to become NH residents but spend time both in NH and
                              Oregon/California. There may be legal issues too but in our case there
                              were tax consequences that we were going to be careful of. If you file
                              a long form ask a tax professional about the potential ramifications in
                              your situation and be specific about the states involved. Some states
                              are worse than others!

                              Jean



















                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              A government big enough to give you all you want
                              is a government big enough to take it all away
                              -- Barry Goldwater


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Greg
                              ... Personally, I get REALLY tired of Winter toward the end of February. I hope I ll have a job that will allow me to spend a month or two in a warmer climate
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 28, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Jason P Sorens"
                                <jason.sorens@y...> wrote:
                                > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > I for one am adamantly against dual residency. Not only is it
                                > currently
                                > > illegal in NH (in order to get a NH drivers license, you need to
                                > both
                                > > prove residency AND surrender your DL from your other state, as the
                                > > Interstate Drivers License Compact only allows one DL per person),
                                > but
                                > > allowing it would open a floodgate for statists to flood the state
                                > and
                                > > the polls with rabid statist votes who won't have to live with the
                                > > consequences of their actions...
                                >
                                > Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places
                                > simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that. But as one native
                                > Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                                > winter. So you don't have to be there year-round every year to be a
                                > resident.

                                Personally, I get REALLY tired of Winter toward the end of February.
                                I hope I'll have a job that will allow me to spend a month or two in a
                                warmer climate every Winter. So long as I make it back for the
                                Primary Elections... :-)
                              • John David Galt
                                ... That s true. It s intent to return that counts. There have been many cases where someone has tried to be a dual resident and the courts have had to
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 28, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jason P Sorens wrote:
                                  > Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places
                                  > simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that. But as one native
                                  > Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                                  > winter. So you don't have to be there year-round every year to be a
                                  > resident.

                                  That's true. It's intent to return that counts.

                                  There have been many cases where someone has tried to be a "dual resident"
                                  and the courts have had to decide the person's true residence location.
                                  Here are some of the first things courts look at, to make the decision:

                                  * Where your (owned or rented) home is.
                                  * Where you sleep most nights if you don't have a home, or have more
                                  than one.
                                  * Where your possessions are stored if you don't have a home, or have
                                  more than one.
                                  * Where your job is. (If it's a job where you travel constantly and
                                  you don't periodically report back to one "regular workplace", then the
                                  employer's main registered address can matter.)
                                  * Where your close relatives live.
                                  * Where your bank account(s) are. (Even if it's Bank of America, your
                                  account is still associated with some specific branch.)
                                  * Where you're registered to vote.
                                  * What state you have a driver's license from. (You can't legally have
                                  more than one license from different US states.)
                                  * What state(s) your vehicles are registered in.

                                  Of course, nobody is actually required to have, or do, any of the above,
                                  but most of us do.

                                  If you have some of these things in one place and some in another -- and
                                  it's not because you're in the process of transferring them all from
                                  place A to place B -- the court is likely to decide that you are playing
                                  the "multiple residences" game in order to commit tax fraud, or voting
                                  fraud, or something like that. So it's a good idea to keep them all in
                                  one place.

                                  I'm not a lawyer, but I am an experienced tax preparer and the above is
                                  the advice I give to my clients.

                                  As an interesting special case, the "Good Sam" RV Club allows its members
                                  (many of them retired people who roam around the country living in their
                                  RVs) to use its office in Texas as their "home address". They can even
                                  register to vote there -- provided they sign a statement that that is the
                                  place they intend to return to and treat as their home. (Texas is one of
                                  seven states that have no state income tax. It also interprets residence
                                  much more leniently than most other states do.)
                                • Tim Condon
                                  ... No matter what happens, I will be probably spending part of the year in Florida (probably a short period in the dead of winter), but my official residence
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 28, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    >On Aug 28, 2004, at 5:05 AM, Jason P Sorens wrote:
                                    > >> Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places
                                    > > simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that. But as one native
                                    > > Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                                    > > winter. So you don't have to be there year-round every year to be a
                                    > > resident.
                                    >
                                    >We were planning on doing this before I lost my mother last year. We
                                    >were going to become NH residents but spend time both in NH and
                                    >Oregon/California. There may be legal issues too but in our case there
                                    >were tax consequences that we were going to be careful of. If you file
                                    >a long form ask a tax professional about the potential ramifications in
                                    >your situation and be specific about the states involved. Some states
                                    >are worse than others!
                                    >
                                    >Jean

                                    No matter what happens, I will be probably spending part of the
                                    year in Florida (probably a short period in the dead of winter), but my
                                    official residence will be New Hampshire. It seems to me that some of us
                                    might want to consider creating a "winter refuge" in Florida specifically
                                    for Porcupines. Snow birds are a common sight here every winter, with
                                    people coming from *all* the northern states. How about if we had a
                                    "Porcupine refuge" for anyone in NH who wanted to come down during the
                                    coldest part of the winter? Now *that* would be an FSP membership perk!

                                    Tim Condon, Participant Services Director, Free State Project
                                    Tampa, Florida - 813-251-2626 - email: tim@...
                                    A chance to live what you believe: www.freestateproject.org
                                  • Tim Condon
                                    ... No problem, Greg. The only thing we should do is get some people together to buy 50 or 60 acres, and set it up as an RV or camping refuge for Porcupines
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 28, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > > Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two places
                                      > > simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that. But as one native
                                      > > Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                                      > > winter. So you don't have to be there year-round every year to be a
                                      > > resident.
                                      >
                                      >Personally, I get REALLY tired of Winter toward the end of February.
                                      >I hope I'll have a job that will allow me to spend a month or two in a
                                      >warmer climate every Winter. So long as I make it back for the
                                      >Primary Elections... :-)

                                      No problem, Greg. The only thing we should do is get some people
                                      together to buy 50 or 60 acres, and set it up as an RV or camping refuge
                                      for Porcupines who want to come down for a few weeks every winter.

                                      Tim Condon, Participant Services Director, Free State Project
                                      Tampa, Florida - 813-251-2626 - email: tim@...
                                      A chance to live what you believe: www.freestateproject.org
                                    • Freedom Fred
                                      ... I recall reading something in the law that states you can only be a resident of one state at any given time. It has to do with in personam (personal)
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 29, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Fri, 2004-08-27 at 23:05, John David Galt wrote:
                                        > Randy wrote:
                                        > > Dual residency has occurred to me. Any ideas how this could work?
                                        >
                                        > I would not advice trying any such thing without advice from a lawyer.
                                        > It could lead to double taxation and possibly fraud charges.

                                        I recall reading something in the law that states you can only be a
                                        resident of one state at any given time. It has to do with "in personam"
                                        (personal) jurisdiction rules of the court systems.

                                        Definitely consult a lawyer, because there may be more gotchas than you
                                        can imagine just for trying.

                                        The rules are fairly complicated. For example, you *can* own property in
                                        a state you don't reside in, but still get hung on "minimal contact"
                                        issues.

                                        Generally, even if you could pull it off, it's probably not in your best
                                        interests to do so. Caution is strongly urged.

                                        Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I am
                                        learning how to think like one for pro se litigation reasons. (there I
                                        go again! :-)

                                        Life was much simpler when all I had to worry about was the latest
                                        findings in science or a new cool mathematical concept. Now, in order to
                                        preserve freedom and liberty for myself and those whom I care about, I
                                        have to know and understand how the machine of our oppressors operate so
                                        I can turn it back against them.

                                        So into the Belly of the Beast I go...

                                        --
                                        Freedom Fred <fred@...>
                                        Freedom
                                      • Mike Lorrey
                                        When I met L Neil at the Palm Beach County LP meeting, he mentioned that there is a Free County Project in Florida, in, fittingly, Freedom County. ... =====
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          When I met L Neil at the Palm Beach County LP meeting, he mentioned
                                          that there is a Free County Project in Florida, in, fittingly, Freedom
                                          County.

                                          --- Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > >On Aug 28, 2004, at 5:05 AM, Jason P Sorens wrote:
                                          > > >> Yeah, there's definitely no way to be a legal resident of two
                                          > places
                                          > > > simultaneously; I didn't mean to propose that. But as one native
                                          > > > Mainer told me, about two-thirds of that state leaves for the
                                          > > > winter. So you don't have to be there year-round every year to
                                          > be a
                                          > > > resident.
                                          > >
                                          > >We were planning on doing this before I lost my mother last year.
                                          > We
                                          > >were going to become NH residents but spend time both in NH and
                                          > >Oregon/California. There may be legal issues too but in our case
                                          > there
                                          > >were tax consequences that we were going to be careful of. If you
                                          > file
                                          > >a long form ask a tax professional about the potential ramifications
                                          > in
                                          > >your situation and be specific about the states involved. Some
                                          > states
                                          > >are worse than others!
                                          > >
                                          > >Jean
                                          >
                                          > No matter what happens, I will be probably spending part of
                                          > the
                                          > year in Florida (probably a short period in the dead of winter), but
                                          > my
                                          > official residence will be New Hampshire. It seems to me that some of
                                          > us
                                          > might want to consider creating a "winter refuge" in Florida
                                          > specifically
                                          > for Porcupines. Snow birds are a common sight here every winter, with
                                          >
                                          > people coming from *all* the northern states. How about if we had a
                                          > "Porcupine refuge" for anyone in NH who wanted to come down during
                                          > the
                                          > coldest part of the winter? Now *that* would be an FSP membership
                                          > perk!
                                          >
                                          > Tim Condon, Participant Services Director, Free State Project
                                          > Tampa, Florida - 813-251-2626 - email: tim@...
                                          > A chance to live what you believe: www.freestateproject.org
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          =====
                                          Mike Lorrey
                                          Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                                          "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                                          It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                          -William Pitt (1759-1806)
                                          Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism



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                                        • John David Galt
                                          ... Smith is welcome to it. No real libertarian would ever sign his Covenant .
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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                                            Mike Lorrey wrote:
                                            > When I met L Neil at the Palm Beach County LP meeting, he mentioned
                                            > that there is a Free County Project in Florida, in, fittingly, Freedom
                                            > County.

                                            Smith is welcome to it. No real libertarian would ever sign his "Covenant".
                                          • johnnylemuria
                                            ... mentioned ... Freedom ... his Covenant . I just read it. What s wrong with it?
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                                              --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, John David Galt <jdg@d...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > Mike Lorrey wrote:
                                              > > When I met L Neil at the Palm Beach County LP meeting, he
                                              mentioned
                                              > > that there is a Free County Project in Florida, in, fittingly,
                                              Freedom
                                              > > County.
                                              >
                                              > Smith is welcome to it. No real libertarian would ever sign
                                              his "Covenant".

                                              I just read it. What's wrong with it?
                                            • John David Galt
                                              ... 1) It denies the right of consenting individuals to own property as partners. 2) It denies victims of theft-by-fraud the right to enforce restitution.
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 1 11:44 AM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                >> Smith is welcome to it. No real libertarian would ever sign
                                                >> his "Covenant".

                                                > I just read it. What's wrong with it?

                                                1) It denies the right of consenting individuals to own property as
                                                partners.

                                                2) It denies victims of theft-by-fraud the right to enforce
                                                restitution.
                                              • John Krumpotick
                                                ... FIRST, that we shall henceforward recognize each individual to be the exclusive Proprietor of his or her own Existence and of all products of that
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 1 4:19 PM
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                                                  John David Galt wrote:
                                                  >>>Smith is welcome to it. No real libertarian would ever sign
                                                  >>>his "Covenant".
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >>I just read it. What's wrong with it?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > 1) It denies the right of consenting individuals to own property as
                                                  > partners.
                                                  FIRST, that we shall henceforward recognize each individual to be the
                                                  exclusive Proprietor of his or her own Existence and of all products of
                                                  that Existence, holding no Obligation binding among Individuals

                                                  Note this line:
                                                  excepting those to which they voluntarily and explicitly consent


                                                  >
                                                  > 2) It denies victims of theft-by-fraud the right to enforce
                                                  > restitution.
                                                  Restitution isn't mentioned or prohibited or encouraged so far as I see,
                                                  whether for fraud or anything else.


                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
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                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Mike Lorrey
                                                  ... No, not done. Property taxes based on georgist principles are only applicable if there is no public land. Today the government owns 40% of all land in the
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 1, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- Beth Jezik <bjezik@...> wrote:

                                                    > Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or is
                                                    > this the
                                                    > idea of freedom in the new amerika?
                                                    > REPORT CARD
                                                    >
                                                    > Marx's 10 planks of the communist manifesto are alive and well in the
                                                    > USA as follows:
                                                    >
                                                    > 1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land
                                                    > to public purposes. *real estate* DONE

                                                    No, not done. Property taxes based on georgist principles are only
                                                    applicable if there is no public land. Today the government owns 40% of
                                                    all land in the US, creating an artificial scarcity.

                                                    Nor is property tax what Marx meant. Instead he meant that all leased
                                                    or rented property could only be leased or rented to people by the
                                                    state, i.e. Housing Projects. Government housing projects are in
                                                    retreat in many areas of the country. In NH, they are generally termed
                                                    "Section 8 Housing" and many communities are not approving any more
                                                    development of such housing, and are closing many exising ones down.

                                                    > 2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. *IRS* DONE

                                                    This was done long ago in the 50's. Reagan and Bush Sr de-progressified
                                                    this system from 50 tax brackets down to three or four. Serious
                                                    candidates like Steve Forbes have gained great credence in public
                                                    proposing 17% flat taxes. There is now serious talk about eliminating
                                                    the IRS completely in favor of a national sales tax. Part of this is to
                                                    make those who have successfully avoided or evaded taxes in increasing
                                                    numbers in the last decade start paying their allged "fair share" via
                                                    their consumption rather than but their income.

                                                    Furthermore, the last decade has seen a great increase in the number of
                                                    people who quantitatively pay little or no taxes. Virtually 50% of the
                                                    wage earners in the US pay no income tax after factoring in Earned
                                                    Income Tax Credit. While the EITC is also used for redistributionist
                                                    purposes without welfare bureaucracy, it is an improvement on welfare
                                                    but still wrong in its redistribution agenda.

                                                    > 3) Abolition of all rights of inheritance. *inheritance tax* DONE

                                                    Inheritance tax is not an abolition of ALL rights of inheritance, just
                                                    part.

                                                    Furthermore, abolition of death taxes have gained great support around
                                                    the country in recent years, while the threshold for liability for such
                                                    taxes has been raised significantly.

                                                    > 4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. *non US
                                                    > citizen, "practicing without" license, registration or permit,
                                                    > terrorism*
                                                    > DONE

                                                    Civil forfeiture is certainly alive and well, and oppression of those
                                                    who refuse to ask the state for permission to travel and earn a living
                                                    certainly does occur, but such regulation is not unique to communism,
                                                    it dates back to the feudal era as well.

                                                    > 5) Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a
                                                    > national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. *the
                                                    > federal reserve* DONE

                                                    Are all credit unions owned by the federal reserve bank? No, they
                                                    aren't.

                                                    > 6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he
                                                    > hands of the state. *commerce clause of the "constitution, state
                                                    > police, etc."* DONE
                                                    > (FCC)(DOT)

                                                    The FCC owns AT&T, MCI, Sprint, LCI, Verizon, Ameritech, SWBell, Sun
                                                    Bell, and every other phone company? No, they don't. Nor does the DOT
                                                    own every, or even any, airline, trucking, taxi, or car manufacturing company.

                                                    =====
                                                    Mike Lorrey
                                                    Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                                                    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                                                    It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                                    -William Pitt (1759-1806)
                                                    Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism



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                                                  • Randy
                                                    I a regulated society, ownership and control are not one and the same. Randy ... manufacturing company.
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                                      I a regulated society, ownership and control are not one and the same.

                                                      Randy

                                                      --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey@y...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > --- Beth Jezik <bjezik@h...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > Please tell me what the fsp intends to do with this reality. Or is
                                                      > > this the
                                                      > > idea of freedom in the new amerika?
                                                      > > REPORT CARD
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Marx's 10 planks of the communist manifesto are alive and well in the
                                                      > > USA as follows:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > 1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land
                                                      > > to public purposes. *real estate* DONE
                                                      >
                                                      > No, not done. Property taxes based on georgist principles are only
                                                      > applicable if there is no public land. Today the government owns 40% of
                                                      > all land in the US, creating an artificial scarcity.
                                                      >
                                                      > Nor is property tax what Marx meant. Instead he meant that all leased
                                                      > or rented property could only be leased or rented to people by the
                                                      > state, i.e. Housing Projects. Government housing projects are in
                                                      > retreat in many areas of the country. In NH, they are generally termed
                                                      > "Section 8 Housing" and many communities are not approving any more
                                                      > development of such housing, and are closing many exising ones down.
                                                      >
                                                      > > 2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. *IRS* DONE
                                                      >
                                                      > This was done long ago in the 50's. Reagan and Bush Sr de-progressified
                                                      > this system from 50 tax brackets down to three or four. Serious
                                                      > candidates like Steve Forbes have gained great credence in public
                                                      > proposing 17% flat taxes. There is now serious talk about eliminating
                                                      > the IRS completely in favor of a national sales tax. Part of this is to
                                                      > make those who have successfully avoided or evaded taxes in increasing
                                                      > numbers in the last decade start paying their allged "fair share" via
                                                      > their consumption rather than but their income.
                                                      >
                                                      > Furthermore, the last decade has seen a great increase in the number of
                                                      > people who quantitatively pay little or no taxes. Virtually 50% of the
                                                      > wage earners in the US pay no income tax after factoring in Earned
                                                      > Income Tax Credit. While the EITC is also used for redistributionist
                                                      > purposes without welfare bureaucracy, it is an improvement on welfare
                                                      > but still wrong in its redistribution agenda.
                                                      >
                                                      > > 3) Abolition of all rights of inheritance. *inheritance tax* DONE
                                                      >
                                                      > Inheritance tax is not an abolition of ALL rights of inheritance, just
                                                      > part.
                                                      >
                                                      > Furthermore, abolition of death taxes have gained great support around
                                                      > the country in recent years, while the threshold for liability for such
                                                      > taxes has been raised significantly.
                                                      >
                                                      > > 4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. *non US
                                                      > > citizen, "practicing without" license, registration or permit,
                                                      > > terrorism*
                                                      > > DONE
                                                      >
                                                      > Civil forfeiture is certainly alive and well, and oppression of those
                                                      > who refuse to ask the state for permission to travel and earn a living
                                                      > certainly does occur, but such regulation is not unique to communism,
                                                      > it dates back to the feudal era as well.
                                                      >
                                                      > > 5) Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a
                                                      > > national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. *the
                                                      > > federal reserve* DONE
                                                      >
                                                      > Are all credit unions owned by the federal reserve bank? No, they
                                                      > aren't.
                                                      >
                                                      > > 6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he
                                                      > > hands of the state. *commerce clause of the "constitution, state
                                                      > > police, etc."* DONE
                                                      > > (FCC)(DOT)
                                                      >
                                                      > The FCC owns AT&T, MCI, Sprint, LCI, Verizon, Ameritech, SWBell, Sun
                                                      > Bell, and every other phone company? No, they don't. Nor does the DOT
                                                      > own every, or even any, airline, trucking, taxi, or car
                                                      manufacturing company.
                                                      >
                                                      > =====
                                                      > Mike Lorrey
                                                      > Chairman, Free Town Land Development
                                                      > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                                                      > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                                      > -William Pitt (1759-1806)
                                                      > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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