Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [FSP] RE: Dramatically Increase FSP Membership Growth Now

Expand Messages
  • apugh75
    Why all this hostility towards christians? ... Maybe you should consider a few things before wishing some of us christians ill-will. 1. There are a lot of us
    Message 1 of 21 , May 24 7:24 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Why all this hostility towards christians?

      -----
      Maybe you should consider a few things before wishing some of us
      christians ill-will.

      1. There are a lot of us christians out there, and they VOTE!!!
      2. Many see the left as hostile to their interests and they are
      starting to see the right as represented by the GOP turn it's back on
      them. Who are they going to turn to?
      3. Several of their pet issues are things like home schooling,
      religious liberties. Many of their pet issues are bringing them in
      conflict with all levels of government.
      4. christianity and libertarianism are highly compatable. check out
      something like the acton institute.
      5. many of the percieved weaknesses that libertarians have are those
      things involving taking care of the poor, the infirmed, education,
      the hungry. (HELLO!!!!! MISSIONARY WORK, CHARITIES, GOOD DEEDS, NUNS
      PASSING OUT FOOD TO THE HOMELESS!!!!!!)

      You got to remember that this is a political movement and you have to
      keep in mind that many of the people we want to reach are christian.
      They can be a gold mine if we can show how we share mutual political
      interests. How are you going to attract their votes if you are
      saying that christians are not welcome in this group?

      "We hold from God the gift which includes all others. This gift is
      life — physical, intellectual, and moral life."
      --Frederic Bastiat
    • Bill Hartwell
      ... I suppose it may have to do with personal history. When you wake up in the morning to people gathered out in front of your house declaring that you re
      Message 2 of 21 , May 25 10:26 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        apugh75 wrote:

        > Why all this hostility towards christians?

        I suppose it may have to do with personal history.

        When you wake up in the morning to people gathered out in front of your
        house declaring that you're going to burn in Hell because you're not a
        follower of their particular variety of Christianity....

        When you discover three people sentenced to death for a murder the
        evidence shows they could not have committed, simply because they are
        alleged to have practiced a minority religion (Google "Memphis Three")....

        When you read news reports of things like a woman being put on trial for
        "bewitching" a foster child, or any of the other things reported at
        WitchVox....

        When the leaders of various Christian groups openly declare their
        intention to transform the US into a Christian theocracy....

        You can bet that people are going to have some hostility. Until the most
        vocal of Christians stop acting like America's answer to the Taliban,
        they are going to ruin it for the less vocal Christians.

        Hell, I was hostile to Christians in general for years after I escaped
        from fundamentalist Christianity, until I got to know an Orthodox deacon
        and a fellow gamer who grew up to become a Lutheran minister. He and I
        have serious disagreements about some things (He's a Bushevik, for
        instance), but having known him for nearly 20 years, I've learned that
        not all Christians are like those I grew up with and learned to hate by
        their example.

        --
        Go ahead and vote for the lesser or greater of two evils, its a free
        country. Some of us are going to vote for good.
      • Philip L. Welch
        ... There is no hostility towards Christians. One of my favorite libertarians, Representative Ron Paul of Texas, is Christian. I saw The Passion and was moved
        Message 3 of 21 , May 25 1:13 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          > Why all this hostility towards christians?

          There is no hostility towards Christians. One of my favorite
          libertarians, Representative Ron Paul of Texas, is Christian. I saw The
          Passion and was moved by it. I'm not anti-Christian. I'm an atheist,
          but I harbor no ill will towards those who are not. My own mother is
          Catholic!

          However, I do very strongly oppose the misinterpretation of
          Christianity that leads to the emergence of the Religious Right, a
          movement of supposed Christians whose goal is to turn this country into
          a theocracy. These people are not libertarian. These people do not
          support legalizing victimless crimes, and they want to create more.
          These people want the government to sponsor and support their
          interpretation of Christianity. These people want to censor the media
          and repress the gay community. In short, these people are as much our
          enemy as the socialists, and I have Christian libertarian friends who
          agree with me on this point.

          > 3. Several of their pet issues are things like home schooling,
          > religious liberties. Many of their pet issues are bringing them in
          > conflict with all levels of government.

          Religious liberties are a libertarian issue. The central issue of
          politically active atheists is religious liberty, and separation of
          church and state, which are one in the same. Many Christians are allies
          on this point, but the Religious Right opposes religious liberties. The
          Religious Right wants the government to support their religion, but
          allow no liberties to any other religion, nor to the irreligious. They
          want to crush the separation of church and state. It is this Religious
          Right that is the core of the so-called "Christian Exodus", and it is
          this Religious Right whom I wish to see leaving the FSP, if they are
          among us. This Religious Right is not truly Christian, any more than
          al-Qaeda is truly Islamic. They are both the result of
          misinterpretations used by individuals who want to legitimize their own
          reach for power. The Religious Right is as much an enemy of true
          Christianity as any movement in this country.

          > You got to remember that this is a political movement and you have to
          > keep in mind that many of the people we want to reach are christian.
          > They can be a gold mine if we can show how we share mutual political
          > interests. How are you going to attract their votes if you are
          > saying that christians are not welcome in this group?

          Christians are welcome. Statists are not. And the Religious Right is
          statist to the core.

          Philip L. Welch
          http://www.philwelch.net/
          http://www.PetitionOnline.com/philscar/petition.html


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike Denny
          Very well said Philip, I tell the Religious Right that they should take a lesson from the Old Testament. G_d told Moses that if he ever needed water, all he
          Message 4 of 21 , May 25 8:18 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Very well said Philip,



            I tell the Religious Right that they should take a lesson from the Old
            Testament. G_d told Moses that if he ever needed water, all he had to do
            was take his staff and tap a rock once. But that seemed too easy for
            Moses as he didn't trust G_d. So when he was thirsty, he took his staff
            and tapped the rock TWICE instead of ONCE as G_d had commanded him.
            Since he didn't trust the word of G_d, the Lord didn't allow him to
            reach the Land of Milk and Honey.



            The same is true for the Religious Right. G_d doesn't need the help of
            political bodies to do G_d's work. All G_d asks is that we trust the
            word and the judgment of G_d. Libertarian politics have nothing to do
            with the word of G_d. Only G_d can make the changes needed in the human
            heart by acting through individuals. Politics on its own will never save
            us. Only by allowing human freedom to exist will the Word of G_d be free
            to exist with G_d's morality and judgment. Anything else is the
            equivalent of Moses's tapping the rock twice, and will yield the same
            result. We will never as a people of G_d reach the Land of Milk and
            Honey if we rely on politics rather than the Word and Judgment of the
            Lord.



            The Lord doesn't need our help in serving rewards and justice. To think
            otherwise is Vanity and the worship of a false G_d. All G_d needs is for
            humans to be free to make free choices so G_d can work through us
            unencumbered. A government that tries to act on behalf of G_d is doomed
            to fail and a sin against the First Commandment, "I Am the Lord Thy G_d,
            Thou Shalt Not Have Strange G_ds Before Me". The most moral thing
            Christians and Libertarians can do is get government out of the way so
            that G_d can do the work that must be done. To do this, they must have
            Faith in the Power Almighty. Disobedience will not deny the Word of G_d
            justice, it will just delay our Redemption.



            Faith isn't for everyone and not everyone will be saved. Pretending
            political bodies will make that judgment is sheer folly. I invite every
            Libertarian to be Christian. Christ has said that only those who live by
            the Word of G_d shall Live. We are not capable of passing judgment on
            our brothers and sisters so we cannot know what is in their hearts. Only
            G-d knows. Some who preach in the name of the Lord are flawed and will
            not be welcomed. Some who do not feel worthy of the blessings of G_d but
            who have Love in their hearts will be saved. The end is not for us to
            know. We are only to have faith and to spread the Word. Libertarian
            politics and Christ in our hearts is the only way for us to go if you
            ask me. That's why I'm coming to the Free State with my wife and four
            children.



            Blessings on us all....



            Michael Denny

            LP of San Francisco

            Free State Supporter
          • Tim Bauman
            Apugh75, Though I haven t read posts succeeding your s, my responses are ... wrote: Why all this hostility towards christians? I believe it is because
            Message 5 of 21 , May 30 8:10 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Apugh75,

              Though I haven't read posts succeeding your's, my responses are
              below:

              --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, apugh75 <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:

              "Why all this hostility towards christians?"

              I believe it is because Statist-Christians, versus non-statist
              Christians such as yourself, get a great deal of publicity. As an
              athiest/agnostic, libertarian I have to frequently remind myself
              that it is the Statist part of Statist-Christian that I have a
              problem with. Read the posting responses carefully....I heard
              intolerance of Statist-Christians, not all Christians.

              "4. christianity and libertarianism are highly compatable. check
              out something like the acton institute."

              EXACTLY. I visited their website a couple years ago and found it
              very refreshing.....it helps knock down the stereotypes.

              "How are you going to attract their votes if you are saying that
              christians are not welcome in this group?"

              Hopefully, posters (despite an understandable desire to rant) will
              be aware that imprecise communications may give the wrong
              impression. I liked Mike Lorrey's bashing of "Statist-Athieists"
              (I'm athiest, but not statist). He was precise and we all need to
              be the same.


              Tim B.
            • Freedom Fred
              ... I would like to see the libertarian movement to be completely neutral on the religious issue. The way Christianity has become mired in the Republican
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 22:24, apugh75 wrote:
                > Why all this hostility towards christians?
                ...
                > You got to remember that this is a political movement and you have to
                > keep in mind that many of the people we want to reach are christian.
                > They can be a gold mine if we can show how we share mutual political
                > interests. How are you going to attract their votes if you are
                > saying that christians are not welcome in this group?

                I would like to see the libertarian movement to be completely neutral on
                the religious issue. The way Christianity has become mired in the
                Republican Party sickens me to no end.

                Thou shalt not mix religion and politics.

                --
                Freedom Fred <fred@...>
                Freedom
              • Philip L. Welch
                ... Agreed entirely. To mix the two is anti-liberty, and we can t welcome those (such as Christian Exodus) who do mix the two. Philip L. Welch
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 3, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  > I would like to see the libertarian movement to be completely neutral
                  > on
                  > the religious issue. The way Christianity has become mired in the
                  > Republican Party sickens me to no end.
                  >
                  > Thou shalt not mix religion and politics.

                  Agreed entirely. To mix the two is anti-liberty, and we can't welcome
                  those (such as "Christian" Exodus) who do mix the two.

                  Philip L. Welch
                  http://www.philwelch.net/
                  http://www.PetitionOnline.com/philscar/petition.html


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.