Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: SB 454 Update

Expand Messages
  • simplulo
    Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the 501(c)3 rules, it is a
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
      try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the
      501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which is
      to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care what
      happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
      and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is not
      an FSP function.

      Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
      editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally doing
      everything we can to recruit new members.

      --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Keith Murphy
      <keithrmurphy@c...> wrote:
      > OK, here's where we stand on Senate Bill 454:
      >
      > From what I understand, most of the testimony today was in favor
      of the
      > bill -- approximately a dozen FSP members showed up, along with
      > representatives from the NHLA and the LPNH.  The opposition
      continues
      > to be from the NH police chiefs, who are loath to give up their
      power
      > in deciding who is worthy to carry a concealed firearm.  The next
      step
      > is the committee vote, which will likely be held on 23 April.
      >
      > That gives us three more weeks to persuade those that need to be
      > persuaded.  The committee has 21 members, and we need 11 votes to
      pass
      > the motion to give the bill an "ought to pass" label.
      >
      > Eight of the 21 representatives have made it clear that they will
      > either support the bill or oppose it, regardless of our efforts. 
      Those
      > in favor are representatives Bicknell, Welch, and Kennedy.  Those
      > opposed are representatives Robertson, Gilbert, Bemis, Knowles,
      and
      > Callaghan.  WE SHOULD NOT WASTE TIME AND EFFORT WITH THESE
      > REPRESENTATIVES!!!
      >
      > The other thirteen representatives have not yet indicated,
      directly or
      > indirectly, whether they will support or oppose SB 454.  Those
      > representatives are:
      >
      > Tholl (leaning NO)
      > Fesh
      > Nedeau (leaning NO)
      > Weare
      > Fish
      > Oliver
      > Winchell
      > Smith
      > Pentelakos
      > Stevens
      > Jones
      > Berube
      > Movsesian
      >
      > Here's what you can do:  Each of us, every single day for the next
      20
      > days, should send a letter AND an email to each of these
      > representatives.  It can obviously be the same letter and email
      to
      > each.  Your communication should be friendly and informative,
      polite
      > and concise.  At all costs avoid an argumentative, defensive tone. 
      >
      > Please don't make phone calls -- the NHLA has a lobbyist dedicated
      to
      > working this bill with face-to-face contact.  Focus on the
      thirteen
      > undecided representatives -- they will decide whether this bill
      passes
      > or dies. 
      >
      > In the event that you get a response from one of these
      representatives,
      > indicating whether he/she intends to support or oppose the
      legislation,
      > please post it here so the rest of us can adjust our efforts
      > accordingly.  To find the addresses of the members of the
      committee, go
      > here:
      >
      > http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/billstatus/commdetails.asp?
      > txtcommcode=H26
      >
      > LET'S GET TO WORK, PEOPLE!!!  TIME TO BE ACTIVISTS!!!
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Keith Murphy
      This is not at all core FSP infrastructure, but simply a private email list. It isn t even run off the FSP server, but instead is run off of the Yahoo
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        This is not at all "core" FSP infrastructure, but simply a private
        email list. It isn't even run off the FSP server, but instead is run
        off of the Yahoo servers. It would be like a Sierra Club member
        operating a yahoo group for like-minded environmentalists. Surely
        501(c)3 doesn't prohibit members of organizations PRIVATELY supporting
        certain legislation or candidates. As long as FSP resources (which
        doesn't include this list) aren't used to further candidates or
        legislation then we should be fine.

        Nevertheless, to avert the perceived conflict, I will not post anything
        else related to campaigns or legislation to this list. Have a good
        day.


        On Apr 1, 2004, at 3:47 AM, simplulo wrote:

        > Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
        > try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the
        > 501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which is
        > to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care what
        > happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
        > and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is not
        > an FSP function.
        >
        > Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
        > editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally doing
        > everything we can to recruit new members.
      • Michelle
        From where I sit (which happens to be NH), I see individual FSP **members** becoming more active and trying to influence legislation. The core FSP
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          From where I sit (which happens to be NH), I see individual FSP
          **members** becoming more active and trying to influence
          legislation. The core FSP infrastructure has **nothing** to do with
          it and I can't understand how anyone would see it as either a
          violation of 501(c)3 rules or a distraction from the FSP mission.

          In fact, far from being a distraction, I believe the exact opposite.
          If only a handful of real activists begin to have a positive impact
          in NH (and we already are!!), it will dramatically accelerate FSP
          recruitment.

          Michelle

          --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, simplulo <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:
          > Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
          > try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the
          > 501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which
          is
          > to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care
          what
          > happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
          > and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is
          not
          > an FSP function.
          >
          > Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
          > editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally
          doing
          > everything we can to recruit new members.
        • Adam W. Gonnerman
          I disagree wholeheartedly. Individual members can use the contacts we ve made for political (or any other) activity not endorsed by the FSP and the FSP can
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            I disagree wholeheartedly. Individual members can use the contacts we've made for political (or any other) activity not endorsed by the FSP and the FSP can report on it as an update on member activity without violating the beast's tax law. Yes, we should and are seeking new members, but we also want our future home to be as worth moving to as possible. Some have already made the move, others will soon and some of us will be a little longer. Should those who are there do nothing? And what about us who are in temporary exile out here?

            Adam G.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: simplulo [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2004 08:47 AM
            To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update

            Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
            try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the
            501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which is
            to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care what
            happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
            and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is not
            an FSP function.

            Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
            editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally doing
            everything we can to recruit new members.

            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Keith Murphy
            <keithrmurphy@c...> wrote:
            > OK, here's where we stand on Senate Bill 454:
            >
            > From what I understand, most of the testimony today was in favor
            of the
            > bill -- approximately a dozen FSP members showed up, along with
            > representatives from the NHLA and the LPNH.  The opposition
            continues
            > to be from the NH police chiefs, who are loath to give up their
            power
            > in deciding who is worthy to carry a concealed firearm.  The next
            step
            > is the committee vote, which will likely be held on 23 April.
            >
            > That gives us three more weeks to persuade those that need to be
            > persuaded.  The committee has 21 members, and we need 11 votes to
            pass
            > the motion to give the bill an "ought to pass" label.
            >
            > Eight of the 21 representatives have made it clear that they will
            > either support the bill or oppose it, regardless of our efforts. 
            Those
            > in favor are representatives Bicknell, Welch, and Kennedy.  Those
            > opposed are representatives Robertson, Gilbert, Bemis, Knowles,
            and
            > Callaghan.  WE SHOULD NOT WASTE TIME AND EFFORT WITH THESE
            > REPRESENTATIVES!!!
            >
            > The other thirteen representatives have not yet indicated,
            directly or
            > indirectly, whether they will support or oppose SB 454.  Those
            > representatives are:
            >
            > Tholl (leaning NO)
            > Fesh
            > Nedeau (leaning NO)
            > Weare
            > Fish
            > Oliver
            > Winchell
            > Smith
            > Pentelakos
            > Stevens
            > Jones
            > Berube
            > Movsesian
            >
            > Here's what you can do:  Each of us, every single day for the next
            20
            > days, should send a letter AND an email to each of these
            > representatives.  It can obviously be the same letter and email
            to
            > each.  Your communication should be friendly and informative,
            polite
            > and concise.  At all costs avoid an argumentative, defensive tone. 
            >
            > Please don't make phone calls -- the NHLA has a lobbyist dedicated
            to
            > working this bill with face-to-face contact.  Focus on the
            thirteen
            > undecided representatives -- they will decide whether this bill
            passes
            > or dies. 
            >
            > In the event that you get a response from one of these
            representatives,
            > indicating whether he/she intends to support or oppose the
            legislation,
            > please post it here so the rest of us can adjust our efforts
            > accordingly.  To find the addresses of the members of the
            committee, go
            > here:
            >
            > http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/billstatus/commdetails.asp?
            > txtcommcode=H26
            >
            > LET'S GET TO WORK, PEOPLE!!!  TIME TO BE ACTIVISTS!!!
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            ------------------------------------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links
            To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/
            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Mike Lorrey
            You are on drugs. 501c3 rules apply to spending money on advertizing. Individuals testifying in person and submitting written testimony to a legislative
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              You are on drugs. 501c3 rules apply to spending money on advertizing.
              Individuals testifying in person and submitting written testimony to a
              legislative committee is not restricted by those rules, nor is
              restrictions on communication between members. What is restricted are
              official publications of an organization (i.e. Quill) advocating to
              membership and/or the public at large a position on legislation. The
              FSP yahoogroup is not an official publication.

              Recruiting members hinges in large part on convincing prospects that NH
              is truly a good place to do what we want to do. Part of that convincing
              relies on proving with real political victories that we can do what we
              want to do, even with the few members who have already moved here.

              501c3 rules only require that the leadership and the finances of the
              organization not be involved in influencing legislation.

              --- simplulo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              > Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
              > try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the
              > 501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which is
              > to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care what
              > happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
              > and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is not
              > an FSP function.
              >
              > Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
              > editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally doing
              > everything we can to recruit new members.
              >
              > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Keith Murphy
              > <keithrmurphy@c...> wrote:
              > > OK, here's where we stand on Senate Bill 454:
              > >
              > > From what I understand, most of the testimony today was in favor
              > of the
              > > bill -- approximately a dozen FSP members showed up, along with
              > > representatives from the NHLA and the LPNH.� The opposition
              > continues
              > > to be from the NH police chiefs, who are loath to give up their
              > power
              > > in deciding who is worthy to carry a concealed firearm.� The next
              > step
              > > is the committee vote, which will likely be held on 23 April.
              > >
              > > That gives us three more weeks to persuade those that need to be
              > > persuaded.� The committee has 21 members, and we need 11 votes to
              > pass
              > > the motion to give the bill an "ought to pass" label.
              > >
              > > Eight of the 21 representatives have made it clear that they will
              > > either support the bill or oppose it, regardless of our efforts.�
              > Those
              > > in favor are representatives Bicknell, Welch, and Kennedy.� Those
              > > opposed are representatives Robertson, Gilbert, Bemis, Knowles,
              > and
              > > Callaghan.� WE SHOULD NOT WASTE TIME AND EFFORT WITH THESE
              > > REPRESENTATIVES!!!
              > >
              > > The other thirteen representatives have not yet indicated,
              > directly or
              > > indirectly, whether they will support or oppose SB 454.� Those
              > > representatives are:
              > >
              > > Tholl (leaning NO)
              > > Fesh
              > > Nedeau (leaning NO)
              > > Weare
              > > Fish
              > > Oliver
              > > Winchell
              > > Smith
              > > Pentelakos
              > > Stevens
              > > Jones
              > > Berube
              > > Movsesian
              > >
              > > Here's what you can do:� Each of us, every single day for the next
              > 20
              > > days, should send a letter AND an email to each of these
              > > representatives.� It can obviously be the same letter and email
              > to
              > > each.� Your communication should be friendly and informative,
              > polite
              > > and concise.� At all costs avoid an argumentative, defensive tone.�
              > >
              > > Please don't make phone calls -- the NHLA has a lobbyist dedicated
              > to
              > > working this bill with face-to-face contact.� Focus on the
              > thirteen
              > > undecided representatives -- they will decide whether this bill
              > passes
              > > or dies.�
              > >
              > > In the event that you get a response from one of these
              > representatives,
              > > indicating whether he/she intends to support or oppose the
              > legislation,
              > > please post it here so the rest of us can adjust our efforts
              > > accordingly.� To find the addresses of the members of the
              > committee, go
              > > here:
              > >
              > > http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/billstatus/commdetails.asp?
              > > txtcommcode=H26
              > >
              > > LET'S GET TO WORK, PEOPLE!!!� TIME TO BE ACTIVISTS!!!
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              =====
              Mike Lorrey
              Chairman, Free Town Land Development
              "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
              - Gen. John Stark
              Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
              http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
            • Adam W. Gonnerman
              Keith, Send to me and I ll post anything pertaining to campaigns and legislation in NH on the FSP Christians, FSP States Rights, FSP Believers Church and FSP
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Keith,

                Send to me and I'll post anything pertaining to campaigns and legislation in NH on the FSP Christians, FSP States Rights, FSP Believers Church and FSP Pro-Immigration list (so long as it doesn't directly conflict with the aims of a particular list).

                Adam G.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Keith Murphy [mailto:keithrmurphy@...]
                Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2004 03:07 PM
                To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update

                This is not at all "core" FSP infrastructure, but simply a private
                email list. It isn't even run off the FSP server, but instead is run
                off of the Yahoo servers. It would be like a Sierra Club member
                operating a yahoo group for like-minded environmentalists. Surely
                501(c)3 doesn't prohibit members of organizations PRIVATELY supporting
                certain legislation or candidates. As long as FSP resources (which
                doesn't include this list) aren't used to further candidates or
                legislation then we should be fine.

                Nevertheless, to avert the perceived conflict, I will not post anything
                else related to campaigns or legislation to this list. Have a good
                day.


                On Apr 1, 2004, at 3:47 AM, simplulo wrote:

                > Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
                > try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of the
                > 501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which is
                > to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care what
                > happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
                > and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is not
                > an FSP function.
                >
                > Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
                > editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally doing
                > everything we can to recruit new members.




                ------------------------------------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links
                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/
                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Steve
                That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the FSP was founded here, and
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                  origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                  FSP was founded here, and the primary purpose of this forum remains
                  discussion of FSP business, though we do sometimes tend to go off on
                  tangents (I think a recent post of mine was moderated). It was a
                  very long time before we opened the web site, and even then, some
                  functions were never duplicated: if you click on the groupware links
                  at the left (files, photos, etc) you will see how we used to
                  collaborate, and still occasionally do. There is no other place
                  where any member can upload files for sharing with the others.

                  The group moderators
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/members?group=mod
                  are mostly from the leadership, including directors.

                  Anyone who is still uncertain should read the statement on this
                  group's home page:

                  "This group/list is moderated and is for discussion of FSP business
                  or FSP-specific issues or questions. This is the only official e-
                  mail discussion list run by the Free State Project; other email
                  lists are unofficial and run by FSP members or supporters. We also
                  have a new web community that we invite everyone to join to discuss
                  almost any topic under the sun on various boards:
                  http://forum.freestateproject.org ."

                  This is indeed a private e-mail list--a private official FSP mailing
                  list--and a good deal more. Anything said or done here should
                  reflect and further the FSP's goals, and certainly not interfere
                  with them.

                  --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Keith Murphy
                  <keithrmurphy@c...> wrote:
                  > This is not at all "core" FSP infrastructure, but simply a
                  private
                  > email list. It isn't even run off the FSP server, but instead is
                  run
                  > off of the Yahoo servers. It would be like a Sierra Club member
                  > operating a yahoo group for like-minded environmentalists. Surely
                  > 501(c)3 doesn't prohibit members of organizations PRIVATELY
                  supporting
                  > certain legislation or candidates. As long as FSP resources
                  (which
                  > doesn't include this list) aren't used to further candidates or
                  > legislation then we should be fine.
                  >
                  > Nevertheless, to avert the perceived conflict, I will not post
                  anything
                  > else related to campaigns or legislation to this list. Have a
                  good
                  > day.
                  >
                  >
                  > On Apr 1, 2004, at 3:47 AM, simplulo wrote:
                  >
                  > > Am I on drugs, or do I see people using core FSP infrstructure to
                  > > try to influence legislation? Not only is this a violation of
                  the
                  > > 501(c)3 rules, it is a distraction from the FSP's mission, which
                  is
                  > > to get 20K libertarians to move to New Hampshire. I don't care
                  what
                  > > happens in NH now if we don't get 20K people signed up. Go ahead
                  > > and work privately with the porcs and others in NH, but this is
                  not
                  > > an FSP function.
                  > >
                  > > Each of us, every single day, should be writing letters to the
                  > > editor and posting in non-FSP discussion forums and generally
                  doing
                  > > everything we can to recruit new members.
                • Steve
                  ... Just not in this Yahoo group, on the FSP web site, or in any way that falsely suggests FSP endorsement.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I agree wholeheartedly:

                    >Individual members can use the contacts we've made for
                    >political (or any other) activity not endorsed by the FSP

                    Just not in this Yahoo group, on the FSP web site, or in any way
                    that falsely suggests FSP endorsement.
                  • Adam W. Gonnerman
                    Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up an FSP activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does that not pass muster,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up an FSP activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does that not pass muster, Steve?

                      Adam G.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Steve [mailto:simplulo@...]
                      Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 10:41 AM
                      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update

                      That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                      origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                      FSP was founded here, and the primary purpose of this forum remains
                      discussion of FSP business, though we do sometimes tend to go off on
                      tangents (I think a recent post of mine was moderated). It was a
                      very long time before we opened the web site, and even then, some
                      functions were never duplicated: if you click on the groupware links
                      at the left (files, photos, etc) you will see how we used to
                      collaborate, and still occasionally do. There is no other place
                      where any member can upload files for sharing with the others.

                      The group moderators
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/members?group=mod
                      are mostly from the leadership, including directors.

                      Anyone who is still uncertain should read the statement on this
                      group's home page:

                      "This group/list is moderated and is for discussion of FSP business
                      or FSP-specific issues or questions. This is the only official e-
                      mail discussion list run by the Free State Project; other email
                      lists are unofficial and run by FSP members or supporters. We also
                      have a new web community that we invite everyone to join to discuss
                      almost any topic under the sun on various boards:
                      http://forum.freestateproject.org ."

                      This is indeed a private e-mail list--a private official FSP mailing
                      list--and a good deal more. Anything said or done here should
                      reflect and further the FSP's goals, and certainly not interfere
                      with them.
                    • Lady Liberty
                      on 4/2/04 2:16 PM, Adam W. Gonnerman at freestatepatriot@burntmail.com ... Steve isn t stifling activism. He s got some valid concerns re: the 501(c)3 status
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        on 4/2/04 2:16 PM, Adam W. Gonnerman at freestatepatriot@...
                        wrote:

                        > Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up an FSP
                        > activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does that not pass
                        > muster, Steve?

                        Steve isn't stifling activism. He's got some valid concerns re: the 501(c)3
                        status and whether or not a list labeled as "official business" for the FSP
                        might likely be subject to 501(c)3 requirements - and if a failure to adhere
                        to the requirements on such a list might jeopardize the 501(c)3 status once
                        it's obtained.

                        Of course, I and the people like me who were against the 501(c)3 status in
                        the first place never even THOUGHT that something like this might come up...
                        <cough>

                        Yours for freedom,
                        Lady Liberty

                        "The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the
                        active, the brave." Patrick Henry
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        News, commentary, and a patriotic goodie shoppe.
                        Visit http://www.ladylibrty.com today!
                      • Philip L. Welch
                        ... Wait a minute. You founded the Free State Project on freestateproject@yahoogroups.com? Is there time travel involved? Philip L. Welch
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 2, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                          > origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                          > FSP was founded here

                          Wait a minute. You founded the Free State Project on
                          freestateproject@yahoogroups.com? Is there time travel involved?

                          Philip L. Welch
                          http://www.philwelch.net/
                          http://www.PetitionOnline.com/philscar/petition.html


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Alan R. Weiss
                          My dear Adam, Do you *really* think, in your heart, that Steve wants to stifle activism? All he is saying is not on THIS particular list , and not in a place
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            My dear Adam,

                            Do you *really* think, in your heart, that Steve wants to stifle
                            activism?

                            All he is saying is "not on THIS particular list", and "not in a
                            place that can jeopardize the status of the FSP." We both know,
                            indeed everyone knows, that you support the mission of the FSP (as
                            does Steve). How can anyone who has read your words not know your
                            commitment?

                            Lets save our vitriol, bile, rejectionism, nastiness, and general
                            mayhem for the REAL enemies of liberty and seek to remember who WE
                            are. :-)

                            WE are better than them. WE treat each other with respect and
                            dignity. Most of all, WE don't eat our own over what in the long-
                            term will not be a crisis-issue.

                            OK, fellow Porcupines?

                            With regards to both,

                            Alan R. Weiss
                            Austin
                            Member, FSP



                            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Adam W. Gonnerman"
                            <freestatepatriot@b...> wrote:
                            > Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up
                            an FSP activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does
                            that not pass muster, Steve?
                            >
                            > Adam G.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Steve [mailto:simplulo@y...]
                            > Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 10:41 AM
                            > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update
                            >
                            > That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                            > origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                            > FSP was founded here, and the primary purpose of this forum remains
                            > discussion of FSP business, though we do sometimes tend to go off
                            on
                            > tangents (I think a recent post of mine was moderated). It was a
                            > very long time before we opened the web site, and even then, some
                            > functions were never duplicated: if you click on the groupware
                            links
                            > at the left (files, photos, etc) you will see how we used to
                            > collaborate, and still occasionally do. There is no other place
                            > where any member can upload files for sharing with the others.
                            >
                            > The group moderators
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/members?group=mod
                            > are mostly from the leadership, including directors.
                            >
                            > Anyone who is still uncertain should read the statement on this
                            > group's home page:
                            >
                            > "This group/list is moderated and is for discussion of FSP business
                            > or FSP-specific issues or questions. This is the only official e-
                            > mail discussion list run by the Free State Project; other email
                            > lists are unofficial and run by FSP members or supporters. We also
                            > have a new web community that we invite everyone to join to discuss
                            > almost any topic under the sun on various boards:
                            > http://forum.freestateproject.org ."
                            >
                            > This is indeed a private e-mail list--a private official FSP
                            mailing
                            > list--and a good deal more. Anything said or done here should
                            > reflect and further the FSP's goals, and certainly not interfere
                            > with them.
                          • Tim Condon
                            Now, now, guys. Relax, Adam. Steve is trying to protect the Free State Project in sounding his concerns, just as you re trying to advance the movement with
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 3, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Now, now, guys. Relax, Adam. Steve is trying to protect the Free
                              State Project in sounding his concerns, just as you're trying to advance
                              the movement with your call to activism. No need to get acidic. ---Tim Condon


                              At 06:16 PM 4/2/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                              >Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up an FSP
                              >activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does that not pass
                              >muster, Steve?
                              >
                              >Adam G.
                              >
                              >-----Original Message-----
                              >From: Steve [mailto:simplulo@...]
                              >Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 10:41 AM
                              >To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update
                              >
                              >That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                              >origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                              >FSP was founded here, and the primary purpose of this forum remains
                              >discussion of FSP business, though we do sometimes tend to go off on
                              >tangents (I think a recent post of mine was moderated). It was a
                              >very long time before we opened the web site, and even then, some
                              >functions were never duplicated: if you click on the groupware links
                              >at the left (files, photos, etc) you will see how we used to
                              >collaborate, and still occasionally do. There is no other place
                              >where any member can upload files for sharing with the others.
                              >
                              >The group moderators
                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/members?group=mod
                              >are mostly from the leadership, including directors.
                              >
                              >Anyone who is still uncertain should read the statement on this
                              >group's home page:
                              >
                              >"This group/list is moderated and is for discussion of FSP business
                              >or FSP-specific issues or questions. This is the only official e-
                              >mail discussion list run by the Free State Project; other email
                              >lists are unofficial and run by FSP members or supporters. We also
                              >have a new web community that we invite everyone to join to discuss
                              >almost any topic under the sun on various boards:
                              >http://forum.freestateproject.org ."
                              >
                              >This is indeed a private e-mail list--a private official FSP mailing
                              >list--and a good deal more. Anything said or done here should
                              >reflect and further the FSP's goals, and certainly not interfere
                              >with them.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Adam W. Gonnerman
                              The only good alternative, then, is that I leave this list. Adam G. ... From: Alan R. Weiss [mailto:alan@ebenchmarks.com] Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 11:21 PM
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 3, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The only good alternative, then, is that I leave this list.

                                Adam G.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Alan R. Weiss [mailto:alan@...]
                                Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 11:21 PM
                                To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update


                                My dear Adam,

                                Do you *really* think, in your heart, that Steve wants to stifle
                                activism?

                                All he is saying is "not on THIS particular list", and "not in a
                                place that can jeopardize the status of the FSP." We both know,
                                indeed everyone knows, that you support the mission of the FSP (as
                                does Steve). How can anyone who has read your words not know your
                                commitment?

                                Lets save our vitriol, bile, rejectionism, nastiness, and general
                                mayhem for the REAL enemies of liberty and seek to remember who WE
                                are. :-)

                                WE are better than them. WE treat each other with respect and
                                dignity. Most of all, WE don't eat our own over what in the long-
                                term will not be a crisis-issue.

                                OK, fellow Porcupines?

                                With regards to both,

                                Alan R. Weiss
                                Austin
                                Member, FSP



                                --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Adam W. Gonnerman"
                                <freestatepatriot@b...> wrote:
                                > Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up
                                an FSP activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does
                                that not pass muster, Steve?
                                >
                                > Adam G.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Steve [mailto:simplulo@y...]
                                > Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 10:41 AM
                                > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update
                                >
                                > That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                                > origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                                > FSP was founded here, and the primary purpose of this forum remains
                                > discussion of FSP business, though we do sometimes tend to go off
                                on
                                > tangents (I think a recent post of mine was moderated). It was a
                                > very long time before we opened the web site, and even then, some
                                > functions were never duplicated: if you click on the groupware
                                links
                                > at the left (files, photos, etc) you will see how we used to
                                > collaborate, and still occasionally do. There is no other place
                                > where any member can upload files for sharing with the others.
                                >
                                > The group moderators
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/members?group=mod
                                > are mostly from the leadership, including directors.
                                >
                                > Anyone who is still uncertain should read the statement on this
                                > group's home page:
                                >
                                > "This group/list is moderated and is for discussion of FSP business
                                > or FSP-specific issues or questions. This is the only official e-
                                > mail discussion list run by the Free State Project; other email
                                > lists are unofficial and run by FSP members or supporters. We also
                                > have a new web community that we invite everyone to join to discuss
                                > almost any topic under the sun on various boards:
                                > http://forum.freestateproject.org ."
                                >
                                > This is indeed a private e-mail list--a private official FSP
                                mailing
                                > list--and a good deal more. Anything said or done here should
                                > reflect and further the FSP's goals, and certainly not interfere
                                > with them.



                                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                                ------------------------------------------------------------
                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/
                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                              • Oliver Dyer
                                Hey folks, I monitor your chat as an interested man ready to go BUT you gotta get off this government priviledge deal. The 501 (c)3 status is for government
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 3, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hey folks, I monitor your chat as an interested man ready to go BUT you gotta
                                  get off this government priviledge deal. The 501 (c)3 status is for government
                                  sanctioned organizations meaning they can regulate you. I don't think ANYONE in
                                  the FSP frame of mind wants that. As for the people who will not contribute if
                                  you're not going to be a dedutable expense; forget them and move on. The
                                  organization will suffer sabotoge at the hands of the contributors if you go the
                                  501c3 route. Just quit now before everyone gets their feelings hurt if you're
                                  not going to do it right. Oliver, in what I wish was a fsp state; Texas.

                                  Lady Liberty wrote:

                                  > on 4/2/04 2:16 PM, Adam W. Gonnerman at freestatepatriot@...
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up an FSP
                                  > > activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does that not pass
                                  > > muster, Steve?
                                  >
                                  > Steve isn't stifling activism. He's got some valid concerns re: the 501(c)3
                                  > status and whether or not a list labeled as "official business" for the FSP
                                  > might likely be subject to 501(c)3 requirements - and if a failure to adhere
                                  > to the requirements on such a list might jeopardize the 501(c)3 status once
                                  > it's obtained.
                                  >
                                  > Of course, I and the people like me who were against the 501(c)3 status in
                                  > the first place never even THOUGHT that something like this might come up...
                                  > <cough>
                                  >
                                  > Yours for freedom,
                                  > Lady Liberty
                                  >
                                  > "The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the
                                  > active, the brave." Patrick Henry
                                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > News, commentary, and a patriotic goodie shoppe.
                                  > Visit http://www.ladylibrty.com today!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Rick LaPoint
                                  Why in the hell are we having this discussion? On this list? Have we not learned to ignore convention yet? Anarchists, denite! rick ... From: Adam W. Gonnerman
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 4, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Why in the hell are we having this discussion?

                                    On this list?

                                    Have we not learned to ignore convention yet?

                                    Anarchists, denite!

                                    rick

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Adam W. Gonnerman [mailto:freestatepatriot@...]
                                    Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 9:36 AM
                                    To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update

                                    The only good alternative, then, is that I leave this list.

                                    Adam G.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Alan R. Weiss [mailto:alan@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 11:21 PM
                                    To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update


                                    My dear Adam,

                                    Do you *really* think, in your heart, that Steve wants to stifle
                                    activism?

                                    All he is saying is "not on THIS particular list", and "not in a
                                    place that can jeopardize the status of the FSP." We both know,
                                    indeed everyone knows, that you support the mission of the FSP (as
                                    does Steve). How can anyone who has read your words not know your
                                    commitment?

                                    Lets save our vitriol, bile, rejectionism, nastiness, and general
                                    mayhem for the REAL enemies of liberty and seek to remember who WE
                                    are. :-)

                                    WE are better than them. WE treat each other with respect and
                                    dignity. Most of all, WE don't eat our own over what in the long-
                                    term will not be a crisis-issue.

                                    OK, fellow Porcupines?

                                    With regards to both,

                                    Alan R. Weiss
                                    Austin
                                    Member, FSP



                                    --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "Adam W. Gonnerman"
                                    <freestatepatriot@b...> wrote:
                                    > Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting up
                                    an FSP activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does
                                    that not pass muster, Steve?
                                    >
                                    > Adam G.
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Steve [mailto:simplulo@y...]
                                    > Sent: Friday, April 2, 2004 10:41 AM
                                    > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update
                                    >
                                    > That this group has over 13K messages should be a clue as to its
                                    > origins. If you go back to the beginning, all will be clear: the
                                    > FSP was founded here, and the primary purpose of this forum remains
                                    > discussion of FSP business, though we do sometimes tend to go off
                                    on
                                    > tangents (I think a recent post of mine was moderated). It was a
                                    > very long time before we opened the web site, and even then, some
                                    > functions were never duplicated: if you click on the groupware
                                    links
                                    > at the left (files, photos, etc) you will see how we used to
                                    > collaborate, and still occasionally do. There is no other place
                                    > where any member can upload files for sharing with the others.
                                    >
                                    > The group moderators
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/members?group=mod
                                    > are mostly from the leadership, including directors.
                                    >
                                    > Anyone who is still uncertain should read the statement on this
                                    > group's home page:
                                    >
                                    > "This group/list is moderated and is for discussion of FSP business
                                    > or FSP-specific issues or questions. This is the only official e-
                                    > mail discussion list run by the Free State Project; other email
                                    > lists are unofficial and run by FSP members or supporters. We also
                                    > have a new web community that we invite everyone to join to discuss
                                    > almost any topic under the sun on various boards:
                                    > http://forum.freestateproject.org ."
                                    >
                                    > This is indeed a private e-mail list--a private official FSP
                                    mailing
                                    > list--and a good deal more. Anything said or done here should
                                    > reflect and further the FSP's goals, and certainly not interfere
                                    > with them.



                                    Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject/
                                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.






                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Mary Lou Seymour
                                    Since the IRS wanted transcripts of radio interviews when the FSP applied for c3 status last time, it s certainly possible they d want email postings. (and
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 4, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Since the IRS wanted transcripts of radio interviews when the FSP
                                      applied for c3 status last time, it's certainly possible they'd want
                                      email postings. (and have the RIGHT to them, BTW). Posts labeled "SB
                                      454 update" on the official email list would obviously be a red flag.
                                      (The invasion of privacy aspect is only one of the many reasons i've
                                      always opposed c3, of course.)
                                      (And no, I don't read this list much anymore, just when people ask me
                                      to "look at what's going on now".)

                                      On 2 Apr 2004 at 17:47, Lady Liberty wrote:

                                      > on 4/2/04 2:16 PM, Adam W. Gonnerman at freestatepatriot@...
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Great Steve, stifle activism. Nice. How about someone setting
                                      up
                                      > > an FSP activists list? FSP could list it on their site. Or does
                                      > > that not pass muster, Steve?
                                      >
                                      > Steve isn't stifling activism. He's got some valid concerns re: the
                                      > 501(c)3 status and whether or not a list labeled as "official
                                      > business" for the FSP might likely be subject to 501(c)3
                                      requirements
                                      > - and if a failure to adhere to the requirements on such a list
                                      might
                                      > jeopardize the 501(c)3 status once it's obtained.
                                      >
                                      > Of course, I and the people like me who were against the 501(c)3
                                      > status in the first place never even THOUGHT that something like
                                      this
                                      > might come up... <cough>
                                      >
                                      > Yours for freedom,
                                      > Lady Liberty
                                      >
                                      > "The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the
                                      vigilant,
                                      > the active, the brave." Patrick Henry
                                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      --
                                      > ------ News, commentary, and a patriotic goodie shoppe. Visit
                                      > http://www.ladylibrty.com today!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      ====================

                                      My alternate email address is
                                      libertymls@...

                                      If you email me and I don't respond within 12 hours,
                                      please resend to the alternate address.
                                    • Tim Condon
                                      Oliver, it s not possible for the FSP to suffer sabotage at the hands of contributors when we have our 501(c)(3) status. Why? Because we re not a political
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 5, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Oliver, it's not possible for the FSP to suffer sabotage at the
                                        hands of contributors when we have our 501(c)(3) status. Why? Because we're
                                        not a political organization; we're a recruiting and migration-sparking
                                        organization. Once in the Free State, it will be up to everyone how to
                                        engage in activism to get to a drastically reduced state government. In the
                                        meantime, however, the only job of the Free State Project is to gather
                                        together 20,000 people who promise to move to the Free State, and then pull
                                        the trigger (so to speak) on the migration. That's all. ---Tim Condon,
                                        FSP member services


                                        At 02:08 PM 4/3/2004 -0600, you wrote:
                                        >Hey folks, I monitor your chat as an interested man ready to go BUT you gotta
                                        >get off this government priviledge deal. The 501 (c)3 status is for government
                                        >sanctioned organizations meaning they can regulate you. I don't think
                                        >ANYONE in
                                        >the FSP frame of mind wants that. As for the people who will not contribute if
                                        >you're not going to be a dedutable expense; forget them and move on. The
                                        >organization will suffer sabotoge at the hands of the contributors if you
                                        >go the
                                        >501c3 route. Just quit now before everyone gets their feelings hurt if you're
                                        >not going to do it right. Oliver, in what I wish was a fsp state; Texas.
                                      • Mike Denny
                                        Exactly Tim....politics will come later. Greetings from San Francisco....looking forward to being with you all in the Free State. Mike Denny
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 5, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Exactly Tim....politics will come later.



                                          Greetings from San Francisco....looking forward to being with you all in
                                          the Free State.



                                          Mike Denny





                                          ________________________________

                                          From: Tim Condon [mailto:tim@...]
                                          Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:17 AM
                                          To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: SB 454 Update



                                          Oliver, it's not possible for the FSP to suffer sabotage at the

                                          hands of contributors when we have our 501(c)(3) status. Why? Because
                                          we're
                                          not a political organization; we're a recruiting and migration-sparking
                                          organization. Once in the Free State, it will be up to everyone how to
                                          engage in activism to get to a drastically reduced state government. In
                                          the
                                          meantime, however, the only job of the Free State Project is to gather
                                          together 20,000 people who promise to move to the Free State, and then
                                          pull
                                          the trigger (so to speak) on the migration. That's all. ---Tim Condon,

                                          FSP member services
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.