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Re: [FSP] Re: Membership

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  • G Triest
    These are amazing and inspiring Bills before the NH legislature. Almost too amazing. My first gut reaction is that they have been put there by some Montana
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 19, 2003
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      These are amazing and inspiring Bills before the NH legislature. Almost too amazing.
      My first gut reaction is that they have been put there by some Montana Militiamen, or other extremist that no one would take seriously.
      Who again put them forth? Are they viewed with guarded bemusement by the bulk of the legislature?
      That is pretty serious stuff, and certainly on the seemingly unreachable wish-list of constitutional freedom seekers, and there it is out in the open.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Seth Cohn
      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:56 PM
      Subject: [FSP] Re: Membership


      Tim wrote:
      >
      > Begin promoting the current state of NH politics as a great start:
      > Benson,
      > the house bills this year (CACR 25, HB 1271, HB 1193, HCR 21, and
      > especially HCR 11) What other state would even have these bills
      > introduced???
      >
      > Who knows, since few or no one on this list has any idea
      > what they say or what they're about....

      Disclaimer: I'm well aware of the FAQ:
      Q. Is the FSP a political organization?
      A. No, the Free State Project is a nonprofit corporation, organized
      for the public benefit and performing educational and charitable
      functions. We do not endorse candidates or legislation. The goals of
      the Free State Project as an organization can be accomplished without
      the election of any candidates or the passage of any legislation: the
      Free State Project's purpose is simply to get 20,000 classical
      liberals and libertarians into a single state of the U.S. What
      happens next is up to those 20,000. Much political planning is
      already being done by FSP members;

      So I want to make clear: By promoting "the current state of politics
      in NH" as liberty-friendly, that is neither endorsing candidates nor
      legislation, including the Governor. An official endorsement isn't
      the answer, but education is. For example...

      Knowing the Governor joined as a friend of FSP is a great point, and
      it's in the archive, but the casual browser would miss it. Seeing
      that the Governor of the state we're planning on working in 'endorse'
      the project goes a long way toward 'perceptional legitimacy' in the
      minds of those unsure.

      So regarding the "current state of NH politics" - education points:

      NH has made great strides in trying to pass a Jury Nullification Bill
      twice. How many other states have come so close?

      For the next few, this is from Rep. Dave Buhlman, (Dist.66, Hudson)'s
      own comments @ http://www.nh-inews.org/articles/03/12/031206d.html

      CACR 25 (CACR means Constitutional Amendment Concurrent Resolution)
      proposes an amendment to the state constitution so that "no tax on
      personal income shall be levied in the State of New Hampshire."
      http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/CACR0025.html

      HB 1271 would eliminate the requirement for New Hampshire residents
      to obtain a license from the chief of police to carry a concealed
      firearm. This is known as the "Vermont-style" carry law which means
      a person can simply carry a concealed weapon without getting anyone's
      permission.
      http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HB1271.html

      HB 1193 seeks to establish "a committee to study the
      constitutionality of the federal income tax and constitutional abuses
      in the collection of the income tax and its effects on New Hampshire
      citizens." This committee would be made up of state representatives
      and state senators.
      http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HB1193.html


      HCR 21 seeks to petition the Congress to reduce the federal tax on
      gas and diesel fuel, thereby allowing the states to increase their
      taxes on this commodity. The premise behind this bill is that the
      state of New Hampshire can do a better job on transportation projects
      without the involvement of the federal government.
      http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HCR0021.html

      And finally and maybe most importantly:
      HCR 11
      [This doesn't match the official introduced text @
      http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HCR0011.html
      but is revised current text courtesy of Rich Tomasso @
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nhlibertarians/message/1401

      The most important bits:

      " That, from this day forward, the State of New Hampshire as
      representative of the people thereof shall deem and treat as null,
      void, and in legal contemplation as inoperative as though it had
      never been issued any and every statute, executive order, judicial
      decision, or other mandate of whatsoever title, description, or
      nature, purportedly emanating from the Government of United States of
      America, or any Branch, Department, or officer thereof, that violates
      the Constitution of the United States of America, by exceeding the
      powers or disregarding the disabilities set out explicitly or
      implicitly therein, or in any other way; and

      That, from this day forward, whenever any statute, executive
      order, judicial decision, or other mandate of whatsoever title,
      description, or nature, purportedly emanating from the Government of
      United States of America, or any Branch, Department, or officer
      thereof, shall violate the Constitution of the United States of
      America, by exceeding the powers or disregarding the disabilities set
      out explicitly or implicitly therein, or in any other way, and shall
      thereby infringe upon the sovereignty, powers, and rights reserved to
      and retained by the State of New Hampshire and the people thereof, as
      explicitly recognized in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the
      Constitution, New Hampshire may, as circumstances warrant, exercise
      its constitutional privilege to bring a case, on behalf of itself and
      the people it represents, challenging such statute, executive order,
      judicial decision, or other mandate, in the original jurisdiction of
      the Supreme Court of the United States, pursuant to Article III,
      Section 2, Clause 2 of the Constitution of the United States; and

      That, should the Supreme Court of the United States uphold on
      grounds manifestly inconsistent with the Constitution of the United
      States of America the supposed validity of any statute, executive
      order, judicial decision, or other mandate of whatsoever title,
      description, or nature, purportedly emanating from the Government of
      United States of America, or any Branch, Department, or officer
      thereof, and challenged as to its unconstitutionality by the State of
      New Hampshire as aforesaid, then New Hampshire shall consider itself
      free to take whatever other action, in the exercise of its sovereign
      discretion, it determines shall comport with the Constitution of the
      United States of America, in order to interpose itself between the
      people of New Hampshire and the enforcement of such unconstitutional
      statute, executive order, judicial decision, or other mandate, or any
      judicial decision purportedly upholding the same."

      Think about that one, people... Name me another state that would even
      get this on the docket...

      and this is BEFORE the FSP lands 20,000 liberty-minded activists on
      NH's soil.

      I'm impressed, and no other states I'm aware of come close to having
      this sort of positive liberty-minded politics even being _discussed_
      within the legislatures.

      FSP doesn't have to _endorse_ any of these bills, but by pointing to
      them as just some examples of NH's current liberty friendliness, the
      goal of a free state seems much closer (to me at least).

      Making the goal seem attainable is important! There are plenty of
      people I know to whom moving is just too much of a committment, but
      some percentage of them _will_ be convinced if it looks like it's not
      tilting at windmills, but truly within an arm's grasp.




      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com





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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Damian
      I do. I have personally enlisted members to the FSP. ... From: Damian To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:59 AM Subject: Re:
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 19, 2003
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        I do.
        I have personally enlisted members to the FSP.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Damian
        To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:59 AM
        Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: Membership


        Yes, this is true...not mant people have an idea of what this list is all about. Maybe this is the problem, I lead a full life and can't keep up with your rhetoric. Why don't you start focusing on Philosophy and individual rights? I am an individualist and am outraged at the current govt. of the US.

        Live free...and let others live free!

        Damian FSP member # 2460
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Tim Condon
        To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:18 AM
        Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: Membership



        >Begin promoting the current state of NH politics as a great start: Benson,
        >the house bills this year (CACR 25, HB 1271, HB 1193, HCR 21, and
        >especially HCR 11) What other state would even have these bills introduced???

        Who knows, since few or no one on this list has any idea what they
        say or what they're about....




        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Alleman
        [Moderator sez: This is useful and valuable information for NH politics. If there is an FSP-related list for NH activism, this should go there. If not, one
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 20, 2003
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          [Moderator sez: This is useful and valuable information for NH politics. If there is an FSP-related list for NH activism, this should go there. If not, one probably should be created for this sort of information and exchange. Thanks, PXB.]

          Seth Cohn wrote on 12/18/2003, 10:56 PM:

          > HB 1271 would eliminate the requirement for New Hampshire residents
          > to obtain a license from the chief of police to carry a concealed
          > firearm. This is known as the "Vermont-style" carry law which means
          > a person can simply carry a concealed weapon without getting anyone's
          > permission.
          > http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HB1271.html


          According to a friend of mine here in NH, well-versed in the politics
          (as well as the function and history) of firearms, the original bill,
          crafted by people with good intentions, but not necessarily
          knowledgeable in the subtleties involved, proposed "Vermont-style." That
          would leave us with no CCW license at all, optional or otherwise, which
          would mean no reciprocity except with Vermont and Alaska. My friend said
          that once this was pointed out to the authors, the re-crafting began,
          the result more closely to resemble "Alaska-style," where you can obtain
          a permit if you wish, thus giving less-enlightened states something
          concrete to reciprocate. That's what he said...
          --

          BikerBill==- ©¿©¬
          allemanse.com==-
        • Rick LaPoint
          Get used to it... for a state which has no mandatory seat-belt, helmet, or compulsory motor-vehicle insurance laws (for adults or those 12 or older), they
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 20, 2003
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            Get used to it... for a state which has no mandatory seat-belt, helmet,
            or compulsory motor-vehicle insurance laws (for adults or those 12 or
            older), they continue to be on the cutting-edge of personal liberty...
            hence it's selection as the "free-state".

            Yes, there is already a contingent of what I call the "ruby ridge" crowd
            active in NH politics... to be expected when you have 400+ elected state
            reps and all kinds of wilderness. Our ability to work together toward
            REAL governmental reform will be the litmus test after 2007, though.

            Right now, I'd take all the crazies currently involved in NH politics
            with a grain of salt. We will soon have 20k activists on the ground
            goading already fiercely independent NH folks toward self-sovereignty,
            and all indications point toward the fact that it's going to be a blast
            to participate in. I cannot wait for the weekly meetings at Cheers in
            Concord (Cheers Downtown Grille & Bar, 17 Depot St - 603.228.0180)

            You are going to have activist meetings, right Michelle?

            If not, I will after I arrive. :D

            In the meantime (as always) pay no attention to the man behind the
            curtain...

            ;)

            rick

            -----Original Message-----
            From: G Triest [mailto:garyonthenet@...]
            Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:26 AM
            To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: Membership

            These are amazing and inspiring Bills before the NH legislature. Almost
            too amazing.
            My first gut reaction is that they have been put there by some Montana
            Militiamen, or other extremist that no one would take seriously.
            Who again put them forth? Are they viewed with guarded bemusement by the
            bulk of the legislature?
            That is pretty serious stuff, and certainly on the seemingly unreachable
            wish-list of constitutional freedom seekers, and there it is out in the
            open.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Seth Cohn
            To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:56 PM
            Subject: [FSP] Re: Membership


            Tim wrote:
            >
            > Begin promoting the current state of NH politics as a great start:
            > Benson,
            > the house bills this year (CACR 25, HB 1271, HB 1193, HCR 21, and
            > especially HCR 11) What other state would even have these bills
            > introduced???
            >
            > Who knows, since few or no one on this list has any idea
            > what they say or what they're about....

            Disclaimer: I'm well aware of the FAQ:
            Q. Is the FSP a political organization?
            A. No, the Free State Project is a nonprofit corporation, organized
            for the public benefit and performing educational and charitable
            functions. We do not endorse candidates or legislation. The goals of
            the Free State Project as an organization can be accomplished without
            the election of any candidates or the passage of any legislation: the
            Free State Project's purpose is simply to get 20,000 classical
            liberals and libertarians into a single state of the U.S. What
            happens next is up to those 20,000. Much political planning is
            already being done by FSP members;

            So I want to make clear: By promoting "the current state of politics
            in NH" as liberty-friendly, that is neither endorsing candidates nor
            legislation, including the Governor. An official endorsement isn't
            the answer, but education is. For example...

            Knowing the Governor joined as a friend of FSP is a great point, and
            it's in the archive, but the casual browser would miss it. Seeing
            that the Governor of the state we're planning on working in 'endorse'
            the project goes a long way toward 'perceptional legitimacy' in the
            minds of those unsure.

            So regarding the "current state of NH politics" - education points:

            NH has made great strides in trying to pass a Jury Nullification Bill
            twice. How many other states have come so close?

            For the next few, this is from Rep. Dave Buhlman, (Dist.66, Hudson)'s
            own comments @ http://www.nh-inews.org/articles/03/12/031206d.html

            CACR 25 (CACR means Constitutional Amendment Concurrent Resolution)
            proposes an amendment to the state constitution so that "no tax on
            personal income shall be levied in the State of New Hampshire."
            http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/CACR0025.html

            HB 1271 would eliminate the requirement for New Hampshire residents
            to obtain a license from the chief of police to carry a concealed
            firearm. This is known as the "Vermont-style" carry law which means
            a person can simply carry a concealed weapon without getting anyone's
            permission.
            http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HB1271.html

            HB 1193 seeks to establish "a committee to study the
            constitutionality of the federal income tax and constitutional abuses
            in the collection of the income tax and its effects on New Hampshire
            citizens." This committee would be made up of state representatives
            and state senators.
            http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HB1193.html


            HCR 21 seeks to petition the Congress to reduce the federal tax on
            gas and diesel fuel, thereby allowing the states to increase their
            taxes on this commodity. The premise behind this bill is that the
            state of New Hampshire can do a better job on transportation projects
            without the involvement of the federal government.
            http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HCR0021.html

            And finally and maybe most importantly:
            HCR 11
            [This doesn't match the official introduced text @
            http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HCR0011.html
            but is revised current text courtesy of Rich Tomasso @
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nhlibertarians/message/1401

            The most important bits:

            " That, from this day forward, the State of New Hampshire as
            representative of the people thereof shall deem and treat as null,
            void, and in legal contemplation as inoperative as though it had
            never been issued any and every statute, executive order, judicial
            decision, or other mandate of whatsoever title, description, or
            nature, purportedly emanating from the Government of United States of
            America, or any Branch, Department, or officer thereof, that violates
            the Constitution of the United States of America, by exceeding the
            powers or disregarding the disabilities set out explicitly or
            implicitly therein, or in any other way; and

            That, from this day forward, whenever any statute, executive
            order, judicial decision, or other mandate of whatsoever title,
            description, or nature, purportedly emanating from the Government of
            United States of America, or any Branch, Department, or officer
            thereof, shall violate the Constitution of the United States of
            America, by exceeding the powers or disregarding the disabilities set
            out explicitly or implicitly therein, or in any other way, and shall
            thereby infringe upon the sovereignty, powers, and rights reserved to
            and retained by the State of New Hampshire and the people thereof, as
            explicitly recognized in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the
            Constitution, New Hampshire may, as circumstances warrant, exercise
            its constitutional privilege to bring a case, on behalf of itself and
            the people it represents, challenging such statute, executive order,
            judicial decision, or other mandate, in the original jurisdiction of
            the Supreme Court of the United States, pursuant to Article III,
            Section 2, Clause 2 of the Constitution of the United States; and

            That, should the Supreme Court of the United States uphold on
            grounds manifestly inconsistent with the Constitution of the United
            States of America the supposed validity of any statute, executive
            order, judicial decision, or other mandate of whatsoever title,
            description, or nature, purportedly emanating from the Government of
            United States of America, or any Branch, Department, or officer
            thereof, and challenged as to its unconstitutionality by the State of
            New Hampshire as aforesaid, then New Hampshire shall consider itself
            free to take whatever other action, in the exercise of its sovereign
            discretion, it determines shall comport with the Constitution of the
            United States of America, in order to interpose itself between the
            people of New Hampshire and the enforcement of such unconstitutional
            statute, executive order, judicial decision, or other mandate, or any
            judicial decision purportedly upholding the same."

            Think about that one, people... Name me another state that would even
            get this on the docket...

            and this is BEFORE the FSP lands 20,000 liberty-minded activists on
            NH's soil.

            I'm impressed, and no other states I'm aware of come close to having
            this sort of positive liberty-minded politics even being _discussed_
            within the legislatures.

            FSP doesn't have to _endorse_ any of these bills, but by pointing to
            them as just some examples of NH's current liberty friendliness, the
            goal of a free state seems much closer (to me at least).

            Making the goal seem attainable is important! There are plenty of
            people I know to whom moving is just too much of a committment, but
            some percentage of them _will_ be convinced if it looks like it's not
            tilting at windmills, but truly within an arm's grasp.




            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com





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            Service.



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