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RE: [FSP] The problem with no platform.

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  • delcomico
    Even the word libertarian can cover a lot of territory. Consider that we have two famous talk show hosts---Neal Boortz and Bill Maher--who call themselves
    Message 1 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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      Even the word "libertarian" can cover a lot of territory. Consider that
      we have two famous talk show hosts---Neal Boortz and Bill Maher--who
      call themselves 'libertarians', and they are both cogs of the Republican
      and Democratic parties, respectively. Boortz is a flag-waving Bushie.
      Maher is a gun control advocate who has attended Democratic fundraisers.
      How very liberty-oriented.

      That's why--regardless of whether or not we wear the 'LIBERTARIAN'
      label--I feel we do need a statement of political goals and objectives.
      We will soon determine the state that is chosen--are we going to wait
      until that point to discuss, in detail, what our political objectives
      are going to be? If ever?

      Is it even fair to those who will sacrifice their homes to this
      movement, to sell the sizzle ("Liberty in our lifetime!") when there is
      no steak..?

      --Kev



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Tim Condon [mailto:tcondon@...]
      Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:39 PM
      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [FSP] The problem with no platform.


      > > I am a "conservative libertarian".
      >
      >How, exactly, do you distinguish between a conservative libertarian and
      a
      >libertarian?
      >Gary

      I'm not an anarchist, I believe in a small, limited government;
      I
      am quite patriotic, and believe that America is the last, best chance
      for
      the world to show how to have widespread freedom and justice (the
      "original" America, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, I should
      say); I
      support a very strong, but light and fast-moving military for national
      defense; I believe that the nuclear family is the main bulwark against
      unhinged statism; I believe strongly in religion, particularly the
      Christian religion, and am very pro-church and pro-organized-religion;
      and
      I am very much in favor of individualism and capitalism across the
      board; I
      abhor those who advocate violence to achieve political ends with respect
      to
      the struggle for freedom in America, and I explicitly reject the notion
      of
      secession, as does the Free Sttate Project. Pretty conservative, hah? Of

      course I hold all the other standard libertarian positions, but I
      mention
      those above to distinguish me from the anarchists and
      left-libertarians. --Tim Condon




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    • Kelly Setzer
      ... Yes, it is fair. I don t like steak, I d much prefer a hamburger. Most of all, don t try to make me eat something I don t like. I will move to wherever
      Message 2 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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        On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 04:13:47PM -0500, delcomico wrote:
        >
        > Is it even fair to those who will sacrifice their homes to this
        > movement, to sell the sizzle ("Liberty in our lifetime!") when there is
        > no steak..?
        >

        Yes, it is fair. I don't like steak, I'd much prefer a hamburger.
        Most of all, don't try to make me eat something I don't like. I will
        move to wherever for some sizzle so long as I'm left alone to grill my
        own hamburger.

        In recruiting "liberty minded" individuals, all the FSP asks is that
        you attend the barbecue. If the FSP suddenly changes course and
        starts enumerating a political platform, I believe that it will have a
        negative impact on recruitment efforts and may cause a rift among the
        current FSP agreement signatories.

        Kelly
        --
        Res ipsa loquitur - the affair speaks for itself.
      • delcomico
        No kidding! Anything to make me a liar, it seems. Good to hear. ;-) --Kev ... From: Tim Condon [mailto:tcondon@freestateproject.org] Sent: Thursday, May 01,
        Message 3 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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          No kidding! Anything to make me a liar, it seems. Good to hear. ;-)

          --Kev

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Tim Condon [mailto:tcondon@...]
          Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:02 PM
          To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [FSP] The problem with no platform.

          At 04:13 PM 5/1/2003 -0500, you wrote:
          >Even the word "libertarian" can cover a lot of territory. Consider that
          >we have two famous talk show hosts---Neal Boortz and Bill Maher--who
          >call themselves 'libertarians', and they are both cogs of the
          Republican
          >and Democratic parties, respectively. Boortz is a flag-waving Bushie.
          >Maher is a gun control advocate who has attended Democratic
          fundraisers.
          >How very liberty-oriented.

          Bill Maher is a collectivist pig, no doubt about it. But Boortz

          *is* a libertarian, as anyone can tell if they listen to his program.
          Incidentally, he talked about the Free State Project for about 20
          minutes
          today, took calls from two Porcs (including me), and outright endorsed
          the
          project, saying he thought it could work. "Build me a studio and I'll be

          right there with you!" he said. ---Tim Condon




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        • Mike Lorrey
          ... I would instead describe it as spreading by word of mouth that this restaurant has the best damn steak in the universe among closet meat lovers in a world
          Message 4 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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            --- Kelly Setzer <kelly.setzer@...> wrote:
            > On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 04:13:47PM -0500, delcomico wrote:
            > >
            > > Is it even fair to those who will sacrifice their homes to this
            > > movement, to sell the sizzle ("Liberty in our lifetime!") when
            > > there is no steak..?
            > >
            >
            > Yes, it is fair. I don't like steak, I'd much prefer a hamburger.
            > Most of all, don't try to make me eat something I don't like. I will
            > move to wherever for some sizzle so long as I'm left alone to grill
            > my own hamburger.

            I would instead describe it as spreading by word of mouth that this
            restaurant has the best damn steak in the universe among closet meat
            lovers in a world of vegans. The public front of the restaurant is that
            they have an excellent vegan menu with soy based "meat" entrees. The
            vegans have never tasted soy steak that is so great before. They don't
            realize they are eating the real thing until it is far too late...

            =====
            Mike Lorrey
            "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
            - Gen. John Stark
            "Pacifists are Objectively Pro-Fascist." - George Orwell
            "Treason doth never Prosper. What is the Reason?
            For if it Prosper, none Dare call it Treason..." - Ovid

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          • Tim Condon
            ... I am too Kev, and I agree with you. But we re not going to get away from federal anti-drug statutes. All we can do in any event is abolish such laws on the
            Message 5 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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              >Tim chimes in: In fact, some Porcupines do *not* want to abolish what some
              >of us call "victimless crime laws."

              > >Really? Do you think so? I haven't seen anyone like that. There's one
              > guy on the forum who opposes legalizing heroin, but he's not a member.
              >
              > I have seen posts in the Christian FSP email list worrying that
              > the FSP is going "too libertarian," IIRC. There
              > are libertarian-conservatives in the FSP, I believe, who would not agree
              >with legalizing "all" recreational drugs. --Tim C.
              >
              >
              >I'm a libertarian-conservative and I favor legalizing all recreational
              >drugs. It shouldn't be implemented overnight, but there could be a
              >definite move to deconstruct the War On Drugs. We could start by
              >decriminalizing marijuana (in all contexts, not just for chronically ill
              >medical patients).
              >
              >--Kev

              I am too Kev, and I agree with you. But we're not going to get
              away from federal anti-drug statutes. All we can do in any event is abolish
              such laws on the state level. Which most likely will be done (since the FSP
              isn't a political organization, it's ultimately up to the people of the
              Freestate and their elected representatives, yes?). --Tim Condon
            • Mike Lorrey
              ... One of the great things about a libertarian society is that true liberty is the default state. If voluntary consensual groups of individuals wish to
              Message 6 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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                --- Tim Condon <tcondon@...> wrote:
                > At 04:13 PM 5/1/2003 -0500, you wrote:
                > >Even the word "libertarian" can cover a lot of territory. Consider
                > >that we have two famous talk show hosts---Neal Boortz and Bill
                > >Maher--who call themselves 'libertarians', and they are both cogs
                > > of the Republican and Democratic parties, respectively. Boortz is
                > > a flag-waving Bushie. Maher is a gun control advocate who has
                > >attended Democratic fundraisers. How very liberty-oriented.
                >
                > Bill Maher is a collectivist pig, no doubt about it. But
                > Boortz *is* a libertarian, as anyone can tell if they listen to his
                > program.

                One of the great things about a libertarian society is that true
                liberty is the default state. If voluntary consensual groups of
                individuals wish to surrender their freedom to their respective groups
                (i.e. form a commune) within such a society, that is their right, they
                just can't initiate force to do so against anyone. That the reverse
                isn't allowed to occur is indicative of which is the truly just
                condition. Bill Maher is a collectivist, no doubt, but so, to my mind,
                are many christian oriented libertarians who submit to a collective
                religious dogma. There is nothing wrong with this at all, so long as it
                is consensual for all participants.

                This is the libertarian principle of enclavism at work.

                > Incidentally, he talked about the Free State Project for about 20
                > minutes today, took calls from two Porcs (including me), and outright
                > endorsed the project, saying he thought it could work. "Build me a
                > studio and I'll be right there with you!" he said.

                This is great. People like this need to be recruited as spokespersons.


                =====
                Mike Lorrey
                "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                - Gen. John Stark
                "Pacifists are Objectively Pro-Fascist." - George Orwell
                "Treason doth never Prosper. What is the Reason?
                For if it Prosper, none Dare call it Treason..." - Ovid

                __________________________________
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                The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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              • Tim Condon
                ... Yeah? Well I ll bet there are a bunch of libertarians who would disagree with you...but let s not quibble about it; we re all trying to get to the same
                Message 7 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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                  >I'm not an anarchist, I believe in a small, limited government; I am quite
                  >patriotic, and believe that America is the last, best chance for the world
                  >to show how to have widespread freedom and justice (the "original"
                  >America, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, I should say); I support a
                  >very strong, but light and fast-moving military for national defense; I
                  >believe that the nuclear family is the main bulwark against unhinged
                  >statism; I believe strongly in religion, particularly the Christian
                  >religion, and am very pro-church and pro-organized-religion; and I am very
                  >much in favor of individualism and capitalism across the board; I abhor
                  >those who advocate violence to achieve political ends with
                  >respect to the struggle for freedom in America, and I explicitly reject
                  >the notion of secession, as does the Free Sttate Project. Pretty
                  >conservative, hah? Of course I hold all the other standard libertarian
                  >positions, but I mention those above to distinguish me from the anarchists
                  >and left-libertarians. --Tim Condon
                  >
                  >Not all libertarians are anarchists. You sound pretty mainstream
                  >libertarian to me.
                  >Gary

                  Yeah? Well I'll bet there are a bunch of libertarians who would
                  disagree with you...but let's not quibble about it; we're all trying to get
                  to the same place.

                  >P.S. My take is that the FSP does not explicitly reject the notion of
                  >secession, but sees it as a last resort.

                  The FSP isn't a secessionist movement, period. If things get dicey
                  years in the future, that will be for those people to deal with. However,
                  after everyone sees the extraordinary success of the Freestate, America
                  will turn around and start re-embracing the freedoms that the Founding
                  Fathers bequeathed to us, thus negating any silliness about secession now
                  or in the future. At least that's the theory.... ---Tim C.
                • Tim Condon
                  ... Bill Maher is a collectivist pig, no doubt about it. But Boortz *is* a libertarian, as anyone can tell if they listen to his program. Incidentally, he
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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                    At 04:13 PM 5/1/2003 -0500, you wrote:
                    >Even the word "libertarian" can cover a lot of territory. Consider that
                    >we have two famous talk show hosts---Neal Boortz and Bill Maher--who
                    >call themselves 'libertarians', and they are both cogs of the Republican
                    >and Democratic parties, respectively. Boortz is a flag-waving Bushie.
                    >Maher is a gun control advocate who has attended Democratic fundraisers.
                    >How very liberty-oriented.

                    Bill Maher is a collectivist pig, no doubt about it. But Boortz
                    *is* a libertarian, as anyone can tell if they listen to his program.
                    Incidentally, he talked about the Free State Project for about 20 minutes
                    today, took calls from two Porcs (including me), and outright endorsed the
                    project, saying he thought it could work. "Build me a studio and I'll be
                    right there with you!" he said. ---Tim Condon
                  • PJ
                    Yes. Quality libertarian activists and subtlety of thought . Influence is not an automatic gift bestowed on good people. It is earned. It falls to a
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 1, 2003
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                      Yes. "Quality libertarian activists" and "subtlety of thought".

                      "Influence is not an automatic gift bestowed on good people. It is earned. It falls to a huge variety of people, most of whom consciously plan on acquiring influence." ----Hugh Hewitt







                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jason P Sorens
                      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:34 PM
                      Subject: RE: [FSP] The problem with no platform.


                      On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, delcomico wrote:

                      > Again, however, IF WE:
                      >
                      > (A) Have no stated goals, aside from liberty platitudes, and no
                      > platform;
                      >
                      > (B) Call ourselves 'libertarians';
                      >
                      > (C) Have, among us, many passionate and outspoken libertarians who want
                      > to eliminate "victimless crimes" (i.e., legalize all drugs, smut, and
                      > prostitution);

                      Actually, "B" is not the case; we've never said that this is a
                      "libertarian" project, though you might say that it in fact is. We've
                      avoided applying a single ideological label to ourselves because there are
                      a lot of libertarians out there who don't like to call themselves that.
                      (Witness the "Voluntarism" article recently added to the website.)

                      Eventually we want to legalize all drugs for adults. We don't have to run
                      from that. But when we do say that, we have to make clear all the
                      nuances and context of the libertarian position: that sequencing matters,
                      that concomitant reforms are necessary (such as allowing property owners
                      to discriminate against drug users), that kids are different from adults
                      and require special protections, and that we are politically astute. In
                      a short interview it's very difficult to state all that context, so best
                      to leave the details a little vague, while making clear our general
                      philosophy.

                      As an aside, as a hardcore libertarian, if I were watching a program and a
                      libertarian advocate simply said, "All drugs must be legalized," I would
                      know what he meant but I would not want to join whatever he's pushing
                      because he's not very articulate or savvy. To get quality libertarian
                      activists (yes, even the hardcore kind), we have to show the subtlety of
                      our thought and the ability to avoid media traps. Otherwise we're just
                      another pack of ideologues in la-la land.

                      ___________________________________________________________________________

                      Jason P Sorens - jason.sorensATyale.edu - <http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35>

                      <http://www.freestateproject.org> - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?



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                    • David Mincin
                      I find myself pretty much in agreement with our thoughts Tim. Ouch, does that mean that my next stop is a jail cell???? (smile) ... From: Tim Condon To:
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 2, 2003
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                        I find myself pretty much in agreement with our thoughts Tim. Ouch, does that mean that my next stop is a jail cell???? (smile)
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Tim Condon
                        To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 5:39 PM
                        Subject: RE: [FSP] The problem with no platform.



                        > > I am a "conservative libertarian".
                        >
                        >How, exactly, do you distinguish between a conservative libertarian and a
                        >libertarian?
                        >Gary

                        I'm not an anarchist, I believe in a small, limited government; I
                        am quite patriotic, and believe that America is the last, best chance for
                        the world to show how to have widespread freedom and justice (the
                        "original" America, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, I should say); I
                        support a very strong, but light and fast-moving military for national
                        defense; I believe that the nuclear family is the main bulwark against
                        unhinged statism; I believe strongly in religion, particularly the
                        Christian religion, and am very pro-church and pro-organized-religion; and
                        I am very much in favor of individualism and capitalism across the board; I
                        abhor those who advocate violence to achieve political ends with respect to
                        the struggle for freedom in America, and I explicitly reject the notion of
                        secession, as does the Free Sttate Project. Pretty conservative, hah? Of
                        course I hold all the other standard libertarian positions, but I mention
                        those above to distinguish me from the anarchists and
                        left-libertarians. --Tim Condon



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                      • Zack Bass
                        [Moderator Note: I m letting this through because the last bit peripherally has to do with our communication strategy, but discussion of drug policy is
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 2, 2003
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                          [Moderator Note: I'm letting this through because the last bit peripherally has to do with our communication strategy, but discussion of drug policy is off-topic, so if you want to discuss victimless crime policy, please respond on crackerbarrel. Thanks!]

                          --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Tim Condon <tcondon@f...> wrote:
                          >
                          > .... In fact, some Porcupines do *not* want to abolish
                          > what some of us call "victimless crime laws." Why? Because they
                          > disagree that such crimes are "victimless."
                          >

                          Who do they think is the Victim? And whom do they propose to punish?

                          The term "Victimless" is shorthand; it also implies a Perpetrator.
                          You cannot make a Criminal Law against something without stating whom
                          you will punish. The Perpetrator cannot also be the Victim. Saying
                          that a whore or a drug user is a Victim does not justify punishing him.

                          People who pretend that Victimless Crimes actually have Victims are
                          simply liars who want to pretend to accept the notion of a Victimless
                          Act and yet punish people they don't like anyhow.

                          I believe that Porcupines who do this may be convinced by pointing out
                          to them their error. I do not believe that the Statists in the place
                          we intend to move to will ever be so convinced though.
                        • Amanda Phillips
                          ... am an ... lot of people ... I m happy that ... State because I ... ever get to the ... not we should ... what I d call ... are plenty of ... the FSP. To
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 3, 2003
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                            >>Kevin said: (B) Call ourselves 'libertarians';
                            >>
                            >>Amanda said: But we don't call ourselves 'libertarians.' I
                            am an
                            >>anarchist. I think Tim C is a Republican. And there are a
                            lot of people
                            >>who consider themselves libertarian. That's OK with me...
                            I'm happy that
                            >>you Republicans and Libertarians will be moving to my Free
                            State because I
                            >>think you want most of the same things that I want. If we
                            ever get to the
                            >>point where we're arguing amongst ourselves about whether or
                            not we should
                            >>privatize the police force, I'll be a happy little anarchist.
                            >
                            > Tim chimes in: Yep, I'm a registered Republican, and
                            what I'd call
                            >a "conservative libertarian." It's worth noting that there
                            are plenty of
                            >freedom-loving *non*-libertarians, both in the world and in
                            the FSP. To
                            >coin a phrase, we have a "big tent." All you have to do to
                            comport with the
                            >goals of the FSP is believe in individual freedom and support
                            the ultimate
                            >reduction in size of state government by 2/3 or more (more,
                            in my case).

                            Excellent! How about reducing the state government by 3/3?

                            >>Amanda said: Since I take issue with A, B, and C, I don't
                            need to tell you
                            >>that I think D is wrong. Also, I *hate* the word "invade."
                            We want
                            >>freedom, not an invasion.
                            >>Peace,
                            >>Amanda
                            >
                            > Tim chimes in: Agree strongly with Amanda, even
                            though she's a
                            >dangerous anarchist. (joak, joak!)

                            Not nearly as dangerous as you statists! :) But I will work
                            with you statists as long as you're moving in my direction...
                            even though you are ultimately misguided! (joak, joak!)

                            Peace,

                            Amanda
                            http://amanda42.livejournal.com
                          • Jim
                            This IS a big tent. I have never seen an anarchist Republic in history. Can anybody think of one? I m a Conservative /Libertarian /Southern Nationalist if it
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 4, 2003
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                              This IS a big tent. I have never seen an anarchist Republic in
                              history. Can anybody think of one? I'm a
                              Conservative /Libertarian /Southern Nationalist if it comes to
                              definitions. I'm a registered Repub because I don't want to dis-
                              enfranchise myself. I vote Repub. mostly in local elections. One of
                              our own SN's is looking like he's going to run in the Republican
                              Primaries in theb Southern States against GW. His main point is to
                              get the intrusive Federal Government into the public debate. Rev.
                              John Thomas Cripps looks like he he will be going after the
                              Governorship of Mississippi. He was one of the main players in the
                              Mississippi flag fight and got the thing out to be voted on by the
                              people. The entire States Rights and the concept of a "Republic of
                              Republics" is what I'm about.

                              Jim




                              --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Amanda Phillips
                              <amanda42@r...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >>Kevin said: (B) Call ourselves 'libertarians';
                              > >>
                              > >>Amanda said: But we don't call ourselves 'libertarians.' I
                              > am an
                              > >>anarchist. I think Tim C is a Republican. And there are a
                              > lot of people
                              > >>who consider themselves libertarian. That's OK with me...
                              > I'm happy that
                              > >>you Republicans and Libertarians will be moving to my Free
                              > State because I
                              > >>think you want most of the same things that I want. If we
                              > ever get to the
                              > >>point where we're arguing amongst ourselves about whether or
                              > not we should
                              > >>privatize the police force, I'll be a happy little anarchist.
                              > >
                              > > Tim chimes in: Yep, I'm a registered Republican, and
                              > what I'd call
                              > >a "conservative libertarian." It's worth noting that there
                              > are plenty of
                              > >freedom-loving *non*-libertarians, both in the world and in
                              > the FSP. To
                              > >coin a phrase, we have a "big tent." All you have to do to
                              > comport with the
                              > >goals of the FSP is believe in individual freedom and support
                              > the ultimate
                              > >reduction in size of state government by 2/3 or more (more,
                              > in my case).
                              >
                              > Excellent! How about reducing the state government by 3/3?
                              >
                              > >>Amanda said: Since I take issue with A, B, and C, I don't
                              > need to tell you
                              > >>that I think D is wrong. Also, I *hate* the word "invade."
                              > We want
                              > >>freedom, not an invasion.
                              > >>Peace,
                              > >>Amanda
                              > >
                              > > Tim chimes in: Agree strongly with Amanda, even
                              > though she's a
                              > >dangerous anarchist. (joak, joak!)
                              >
                              > Not nearly as dangerous as you statists! :) But I will work
                              > with you statists as long as you're moving in my direction...
                              > even though you are ultimately misguided! (joak, joak!)
                              >
                              > Peace,
                              >
                              > Amanda
                              > http://amanda42.livejournal.com
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