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Re: [free_energy] Re: magnetism

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  • PAMELA NEIL
    Thanks Tom,                       Am I to assume then, that magnetic flux leakage , only occurs if the magnets inside the coils, are in a
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 10 9:20 PM
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      Thanks Tom,
                            Am I to assume then, that magnetic flux 'leakage', only occurs if the magnets inside the coils, are in a coil that (e.g.), has
      been 'asked' to provide a 'path' for, some device or other?    My next (and hopefully, last) question is;  is the magnetic flux leakage linked
      directly to the 'called for', 'flow'  of current --------------------- i.e., if a large/small amount of current is called for, will the flux 'leakage'
      become more, or less?
       
      BILL.

      From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
      To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 0:44
      Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
       
      If nothing is connected to the coil, so current cannot flow, the magnetic interaction still moves charge around in the coil. This constitutes a very small current which only flows while the magnet is accelerating or decelerating relative to the coil.

      Otherwise, the magnet does not know the coil is there. There is no interaction with the flux of the magnet.

      As charge is moved in the coil, there is an interaction with the flux of the magnet, as there is when electricity is used by some load connected to the coil.

      Electricity is a flow of electrons. If there is no path, there can be no flow.

      Take a regular loudspeaker, and press on the cone. Try this with the voice coil shorted and with it not connected. There will be a big difference in the way the cone feels as you try to move it.

      With the voice coil disconnected, attach a high impedance oscilloscope probe to the voice coil and move the cone. A small voltage will be seen. Voltage is not a flow of electricity however. For that, we need a current path.

      If we want to generate more electricity than expected, we will need a free energy machine!

      --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <thomasjschum@...> wrote:
      >
      > The flux interaction ceases when the velocity of the coil relative to the magnet becomes constant. Otherwise, charge is being moved around in the coil. Charge does not move without an input of energy to cause it to move.
      > If there is a circular path for the charge, current will flow, however when the ends of the coil are not connected to anything there is no main path for current, so no current will flow.
      > It is as if the coil does not exist, so far as energy goes.
      > If the coil is moved faster and faster, eventually the charge will move around in smaller and smaller circles in the wires, and when the full circle can be contained in the diameter of the wire, current will flow within (inside of) the wire regardless of whether or not anything is connected to the ends of the coil. This would require very fast relative motion between magnet and coil.
      > You can see this at low speeds by moving a magnet near a sheet of conducting metal. The eddy currents can lift or move a thin sheet of aluminum foil easily, with a strong enough magnet.
      > No I haven't tried this experiment.
      >
      > Summing up, if there is a path for current, the changing magnetic flux will cause current to flow and simultaneously produce drag on the motion of the magnet producing this flux. If there is no path for current, the changing magnetic flux will only shift charge around in the coil, causing virtually no drag (but not zero drag).
      >
      > One could control motion of a magnet in this way, but losses in the coil would still dissipate energy from the system. These losses show up as heat, generated by any flow of current through the coil. If the ends of the coil are not connected the changing flux moves charge around, and this too is a current which will produce heat. The energy for all this heat (in whatever circumstance) is supposed to be drawn from the dynamic of the system. For example if the system consists of a magnet as the weight of a pendulum, the motion of the magnet would be slowed as the dynamic motion of the swinging magnet pendulum is converted to heat.
      >
      > That's the theory anyway, in terms of our standard zero-sum paradigm.
      > If there is a way to get around this no one would believe it unless we had a functional machine running for anyone to examine. If you have a workable idea the best thing to do is build a working model!
      >
      > Self-inductance reactance as the ends of the coil are alternately opened and closed can also be a factor here, but theoretically this self-inductance does not consume energy.
      >
      >
      > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tom,
      > >        Am I to assume then, that if no electricity is generated by the coil, that the magnetic flux will pass straight through?    Does this also mean,
      > > that any measurement of an electric field, emanating  from this coil, is untrue?   After all, a measurement for an electric field does NOT consume
      > > any electricity!   I suggest, that a measurement for magnetic flux, would be just as reliable.    You can't have two 'positive' answers, for this single
      > > event, can you?    
      > > Please don't forget, my reason in asking these questions, is about its FLUX, not about the generation of electricity!
      > >  
      > > BILL.
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Tom <thomasjschum@>
      > > To: mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 21:19
      > > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
      > >
      > >  
      > >
      > > If you pass a single copper conductor through a magnetic field, the motion will move the electrons in the copper to establish a potential difference between the ends of the wire. If the ends are not joined together by a circuit or load of some kind, no current will flow.
      > >
      > > However, I guess the field and whoever moves the wire will do some work to move the electrons in the copper to establish a potential difference. This is not going to be very much work and it might be very difficult to measure too.
      > >
      > > In the case of a flat coil, no current will be able to flow if the ends or the coil are not connected to a load or other circuit.
      > >
      > > It is possible that a potential difference could exist across the ends of the coil because the field of the magnet would not be completely even across the two layers of turns of the flattened out coil. The layer furthest from the magnet would be in a weaker field than the layer closest to the magnet, so my guess is that there will be some potential difference.
      > >
      > > So, I have no doubt that the magnetic field will be at least slightly disturbed.
      > >
      > > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, "pamela8733" <pamela.neil@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > If a coil of wire, is closely wound, around a cardboard former, and
      > > > the tube/coil is kept perfectly still, then a bar magnet is placed
      > > > horizontally (on its side), inside the coil/tube (also stationary),
      > > > what will happen to the magnetic 'flux'? Will the 'flux' generate
      > > > any electricity, or pass straight through the windings, or what?
      > > >
      > > > BILL.
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • PAMELA NEIL
      Tom,         Sorry about this, but if a device of some sort, asks for x current etc...., to be given out by the coil, why is there an excess of
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 11 3:59 PM
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        Tom,
                Sorry about this, but if a 'device' of some sort, asks for 'x' current etc...., to be 'given out' by the coil, why is there an excess of 'flux',
        that is detected as 'leakage' -------------------- surely, the device, calls for EXACTLY the correct amount of electrical current?
         
        BILL.

        From: Tom thomasjschum@...

         To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 0:44
        Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
         
        If nothing is connected to the coil, so current cannot flow, the magnetic interaction still moves charge around in the coil. This constitutes a very small current which only flows while the magnet is accelerating or decelerating relative to the coil.

        Otherwise, the magnet does not know the coil is there. There is no interaction with the flux of the magnet.

        As charge is moved in the coil, there is an interaction with the flux of the magnet, as there is when electricity is used by some load connected to the coil.

        Electricity is a flow of electrons. If there is no path, there can be no flow.

        Take a regular loudspeaker, and press on the cone. Try this with the voice coil shorted and with it not connected. There will be a big difference in the way the cone feels as you try to move it.

        With the voice coil disconnected, attach a high impedance oscilloscope probe to the voice coil and move the cone. A small voltage will be seen. Voltage is not a flow of electricity however. For that, we need a current path.

        If we want to generate more electricity than expected, we will need a free energy machine!

        --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <thomasjschum@...> wrote:
        >
        > The flux interaction ceases when the velocity of the coil relative to the magnet becomes constant. Otherwise, charge is being moved around in the coil. Charge does not move without an input of energy to cause it to move.
        > If there is a circular path for the charge, current will flow, however when the ends of the coil are not connected to anything there is no main path for current, so no current will flow.
        > It is as if the coil does not exist, so far as energy goes.
        > If the coil is moved faster and faster, eventually the charge will move around in smaller and smaller circles in the wires, and when the full circle can be contained in the diameter of the wire, current will flow within (inside of) the wire regardless of whether or not anything is connected to the ends of the coil. This would require very fast relative motion between magnet and coil.
        > You can see this at low speeds by moving a magnet near a sheet of conducting metal. The eddy currents can lift or move a thin sheet of aluminum foil easily, with a strong enough magnet.
        > No I haven't tried this experiment.
        >
        > Summing up, if there is a path for current, the changing magnetic flux will cause current to flow and simultaneously produce drag on the motion of the magnet producing this flux. If there is no path for current, the changing magnetic flux will only shift charge around in the coil, causing virtually no drag (but not zero drag).
        >
        > One could control motion of a magnet in this way, but losses in the coil would still dissipate energy from the system. These losses show up as heat, generated by any flow of current through the coil. If the ends of the coil are not connected the changing flux moves charge around, and this too is a current which will produce heat. The energy for all this heat (in whatever circumstance) is supposed to be drawn from the dynamic of the system. For example if the system consists of a magnet as the weight of a pendulum, the motion of the magnet would be slowed as the dynamic motion of the swinging magnet pendulum is converted to heat.
        >
        > That's the theory anyway, in terms of our standard zero-sum paradigm.
        > If there is a way to get around this no one would believe it unless we had a functional machine running for anyone to examine. If you have a workable idea the best thing to do is build a working model!
        >
        > Self-inductance reactance as the ends of the coil are alternately opened and closed can also be a factor here, but theoretically this self-inductance does not consume energy.
        >
        >
        > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Tom,
        > >        Am I to assume then, that if no electricity is generated by the coil, that the magnetic flux will pass straight through?    Does this also mean,
        > > that any measurement of an electric field, emanating  from this coil, is untrue?   After all, a measurement for an electric field does NOT consume
        > > any electricity!   I suggest, that a measurement for magnetic flux, would be just as reliable.    You can't have two 'positive' answers, for this single
        > > event, can you?    
        > > Please don't forget, my reason in asking these questions, is about its FLUX, not about the generation of electricity!
        > >  
        > > BILL.
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: Tom <thomasjschum@>
        > > To: mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 21:19
        > > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > > If you pass a single copper conductor through a magnetic field, the motion will move the electrons in the copper to establish a potential difference between the ends of the wire. If the ends are not joined together by a circuit or load of some kind, no current will flow.
        > >
        > > However, I guess the field and whoever moves the wire will do some work to move the electrons in the copper to establish a potential difference. This is not going to be very much work and it might be very difficult to measure too.
        > >
        > > In the case of a flat coil, no current will be able to flow if the ends or the coil are not connected to a load or other circuit.
        > >
        > > It is possible that a potential difference could exist across the ends of the coil because the field of the magnet would not be completely even across the two layers of turns of the flattened out coil. The layer furthest from the magnet would be in a weaker field than the layer closest to the magnet, so my guess is that there will be some potential difference.
        > >
        > > So, I have no doubt that the magnetic field will be at least slightly disturbed.
        > >
        > > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, "pamela8733" <pamela.neil@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > If a coil of wire, is closely wound, around a cardboard former, and
        > > > the tube/coil is kept perfectly still, then a bar magnet is placed
        > > > horizontally (on its side), inside the coil/tube (also stationary),
        > > > what will happen to the magnetic 'flux'? Will the 'flux' generate
        > > > any electricity, or pass straight through the windings, or what?
        > > >
        > > > BILL.
        > > >
        > >
        >

      • Tom
        Nobody knows what a magnetic field really is (at least I don t know). One way to measure a magnetic field is by means of a hall-effect sensor:
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 12 9:40 AM
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          Nobody knows what a magnetic field really is (at least I don't know).

          One way to measure a magnetic field is by means of a hall-effect sensor:
          http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/gauss_meter.jpg

          In such a sensor a small electric current is measured, and because of the hall effect the current is influenced by the strength of the magnetic field.

          Even this method requires an interaction between the magnetic field and the measuring sensor, and a necessary exchange of energy between the two.

          I don't know of any way to measure the strength of a magnetic field without interacting with the field in some way.

          A magnetic field is a physical linkage between the matter producing the field, and other items. We can't see it, but it is very much like a connecting rod or some mechanical device.

          This is how a generator reacts to a changing load. If you are pulling a bucket up from a well, it is harder to pull it up if it is full of water (loaded heavily). If the water spills out midway up (sudden loss of load) you know it right away. Same with a generator.

          I don't have a good understanding of such things as leakage flux, though. To me, it's a tricky concept, but only because I have avoided studying it. I guess if you harness leakage flux, it is no longer leaking but being used. So it isn't leakage flux anymore.

          --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tom,
          >         Sorry about this, but if a 'device' of some sort, asks for 'x' current etc...., to be 'given out' by the coil, why is there an excess of 'flux',
          > that is detected as 'leakage' -------------------- surely, the device, calls for EXACTLY the correct amount of electrical current?
          >  
          > BILL.
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > >
          > > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Tom,
          > > >        Am I to assume then, that if no electricity is generated by the coil, that the magnetic flux will pass straight through?    Does this also mean,
          > > > that any measurement of an electric field, emanating  from this coil, is untrue?   After all, a measurement for an electric field does NOT consume
          > > > any electricity!   I suggest, that a measurement for magnetic flux, would be just as reliable.    You can't have two 'positive' answers, for this single
          > > > event, can you?    
          > > > Please don't forget, my reason in asking these questions, is about its FLUX, not about the generation of electricity!
          > > >  
          > > > BILL.
          > > >
          > > >
        • PAMELA NEIL
          Once Again, Thanks Tom,                                          But, if as you say, ( I think we ve got a chicken and
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 12 2:35 PM
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            Once Again, Thanks Tom,
                                                     But, if as you say, ( I think we've got a 'chicken and the egg' type thing here), the excess flux is used up, inside
            the coil, and so, does not become 'excess' any more ------------- where did the 'excess' flux come from in the first place?
             
            BILL.

            From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
            To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013, 17:40
            Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
             
            Nobody knows what a magnetic field really is (at least I don't know).

            One way to measure a magnetic field is by means of a hall-effect sensor:
            http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/gauss_meter.jpg

            In such a sensor a small electric current is measured, and because of the hall effect the current is influenced by the strength of the magnetic field.

            Even this method requires an interaction between the magnetic field and the measuring sensor, and a necessary exchange of energy between the two.

            I don't know of any way to measure the strength of a magnetic field without interacting with the field in some way.

            A magnetic field is a physical linkage between the matter producing the field, and other items. We can't see it, but it is very much like a connecting rod or some mechanical device.

            This is how a generator reacts to a changing load. If you are pulling a bucket up from a well, it is harder to pull it up if it is full of water (loaded heavily). If the water spills out midway up (sudden loss of load) you know it right away. Same with a generator.

            I don't have a good understanding of such things as leakage flux, though. To me, it's a tricky concept, but only because I have avoided studying it. I guess if you harness leakage flux, it is no longer leaking but being used. So it isn't leakage flux anymore.

            --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tom,
            >         Sorry about this, but if a 'device' of some sort, asks for 'x' current etc...., to be 'given out' by the coil, why is there an excess of 'flux',
            > that is detected as 'leakage' -------------------- surely, the device, calls for EXACTLY the correct amount of electrical current?
            >  
            > BILL.
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > >
            > > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Tom,
            > > >        Am I to assume then, that if no electricity is generated by the coil, that the magnetic flux will pass straight through?    Does this also mean,
            > > > that any measurement of an electric field, emanating  from this coil, is untrue?   After all, a measurement for an electric field does NOT consume
            > > > any electricity!   I suggest, that a measurement for magnetic flux, would be just as reliable.    You can't have two 'positive' answers, for this single
            > > > event, can you?    
            > > > Please don't forget, my reason in asking these questions, is about its FLUX, not about the generation of electricity!
            > > >  
            > > > BILL.
            > > >
            > > >

          • Tom
            I guess at this level we might be talking about different things: excess flux vs leakage flux . I don t know what excess flux is, but leakage flux to
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 14 5:26 AM
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              I guess at this level we might be talking about different things: "excess flux" vs "leakage flux".

              I don't know what "excess flux" is, but "leakage flux" to me means magnetic flux that is not contained in a magnetic circuit. For example when you put a keeper plate across the poles of a horseshoe magnet not all the flux is shunted through the keeper plate. The flux that is not shunted is "leakage flux" and is a very small portion of the total flux of the horseshoe magnet.



              --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
              >
              > Once Again, Thanks Tom,
              >                                          But, if as you say, ( I think we've got a 'chicken and the egg' type thing here), the excess flux is used up, inside
              > the coil, and so, does not become 'excess' any more ------------- where did the 'excess' flux come from in the first place?
              >  
              > BILL.
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
              > To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013, 17:40
              > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
              >
              >  
              >
              > Nobody knows what a magnetic field really is (at least I don't know).
              >
              > One way to measure a magnetic field is by means of a hall-effect sensor:
              > http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/gauss_meter.jpg
              >
              > In such a sensor a small electric current is measured, and because of the hall effect the current is influenced by the strength of the magnetic field.
              >
              > Even this method requires an interaction between the magnetic field and the measuring sensor, and a necessary exchange of energy between the two.
              >
              > I don't know of any way to measure the strength of a magnetic field without interacting with the field in some way.
              >
              > A magnetic field is a physical linkage between the matter producing the field, and other items. We can't see it, but it is very much like a connecting rod or some mechanical device.
              >
              > This is how a generator reacts to a changing load. If you are pulling a bucket up from a well, it is harder to pull it up if it is full of water (loaded heavily). If the water spills out midway up (sudden loss of load) you know it right away. Same with a generator.
              >
              > I don't have a good understanding of such things as leakage flux, though. To me, it's a tricky concept, but only because I have avoided studying it. I guess if you harness leakage flux, it is no longer leaking but being used. So it isn't leakage flux anymore.
              >
              > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tom,
              > >         Sorry about this, but if a 'device' of some sort, asks for 'x' current etc...., to be 'given out' by the coil, why is there an excess of 'flux',
              > > that is detected as 'leakage' -------------------- surely, the device, calls for EXACTLY the correct amount of electrical current?
              > >  
              > > BILL.
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Tom,
              > > > >        Am I to assume then, that if no electricity is generated by the coil, that the magnetic flux will pass straight through?    Does this also mean,
              > > > > that any measurement of an electric field, emanating  from this coil, is untrue?   After all, a measurement for an electric field does NOT consume
              > > > > any electricity!   I suggest, that a measurement for magnetic flux, would be just as reliable.    You can't have two 'positive' answers, for this single
              > > > > event, can you?    
              > > > > Please don't forget, my reason in asking these questions, is about its FLUX, not about the generation of electricity!
              > > > >  
              > > > > BILL.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              >
            • PAMELA NEIL
              Tom,         I really Do mean leakage flux -------------------- I apologise!   So, where does the  leakage flux come from in the first place?
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 14 6:44 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Tom,
                        I really Do mean "leakage flux" -------------------- I apologise!   So, where does the  "leakage flux" come from in the first place?
                What I'm saying is;   If an electrical device calls for a certain amount of electricity, and as a direct consequence produces the correct
                amount of magnetic flux for the electricity called for ------------------ where does this leakage come from?     If it does come from the
                correct amount of electricity called for, surely that leaves the unknown (electrical) device, short of electrical current?
                 
                BILL.

                From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
                To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 13:26
                Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                 
                I guess at this level we might be talking about different things: "excess flux" vs "leakage flux".

                I don't know what "excess flux" is, but "leakage flux" to me means magnetic flux that is not contained in a magnetic circuit. For example when you put a keeper plate across the poles of a horseshoe magnet not all the flux is shunted through the keeper plate. The flux that is not shunted is "leakage flux" and is a very small portion of the total flux of the horseshoe magnet.

                --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
                >
                > Once Again, Thanks Tom,
                >                                          But, if as you say, ( I think we've got a 'chicken and the egg' type thing here), the excess flux is used up, inside
                > the coil, and so, does not become 'excess' any more ------------- where did the 'excess' flux come from in the first place?
                >  
                > BILL.
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
                > To: mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013, 17:40
                > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                >
                >  
                >
                > Nobody knows what a magnetic field really is (at least I don't know).
                >
                > One way to measure a magnetic field is by means of a hall-effect sensor:
                > http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/gauss_meter.jpg
                >
                > In such a sensor a small electric current is measured, and because of the hall effect the current is influenced by the strength of the magnetic field.
                >
                > Even this method requires an interaction between the magnetic field and the measuring sensor, and a necessary exchange of energy between the two.
                >
                > I don't know of any way to measure the strength of a magnetic field without interacting with the field in some way.
                >
                > A magnetic field is a physical linkage between the matter producing the field, and other items. We can't see it, but it is very much like a connecting rod or some mechanical device.
                >
                > This is how a generator reacts to a changing load. If you are pulling a bucket up from a well, it is harder to pull it up if it is full of water (loaded heavily). If the water spills out midway up (sudden loss of load) you know it right away. Same with a generator.
                >
                > I don't have a good understanding of such things as leakage flux, though. To me, it's a tricky concept, but only because I have avoided studying it. I guess if you harness leakage flux, it is no longer leaking but being used. So it isn't leakage flux anymore.
                >
                > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Tom,
                > >         Sorry about this, but if a 'device' of some sort, asks for 'x' current etc...., to be 'given out' by the coil, why is there an excess of 'flux',
                > > that is detected as 'leakage' -------------------- surely, the device, calls for EXACTLY the correct amount of electrical current?
                > >  
                > > BILL.
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Tom,
                > > > >        Am I to assume then, that if no electricity is generated by the coil, that the magnetic flux will pass straight through?    Does this also mean,
                > > > > that any measurement of an electric field, emanating  from this coil, is untrue?   After all, a measurement for an electric field does NOT consume
                > > > > any electricity!   I suggest, that a measurement for magnetic flux, would be just as reliable.    You can't have two 'positive' answers, for this single
                > > > > event, can you?    
                > > > > Please don't forget, my reason in asking these questions, is about its FLUX, not about the generation of electricity!
                > > > >  
                > > > > BILL.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                >

              • Tom
                If a generator is running, and is not connected to anything, and a voltage exists at its output terminals, and you then connect a load (such as a resistive
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 14 1:12 PM
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                  If a generator is running, and is not connected to anything, and a voltage exists at its output terminals, and you then connect a load (such as a resistive heater), current will flow.
                  Accompanying this current will be an increased mechanical load at the input shaft of the generator. This is due to an interaction between the magnetic field in the generator and the magnetic field caused by the load current in the generator.

                  The generator itself is not perfect. The magnetic design of the generator cannot be perfect, so not all of the magnetic flux is contained. A little bit is not contained. This is leakage flux as we agree it should be called.

                  I don't know what happens with it, or where it goes, or whether or not it carries or dissipates any energy.

                  My guess here is that it does not carry any energy, unless we put something in the vicinity to tap it (load it). In this case we harness the leakage flux, drawing energy out of it, further increasing the mechanical load on the generator input shaft. In this case the amount of leakage flux we harness is no longer leaking out so it is no longer valid to call it "leakage flux". That part of the magnetic flux we do not harness can still be called "leakage flux" since it is basically not available.

                  The load (a resistive heater in this case) will not generate any flux on its own. The current (from the generator) flowing through it will also flow through the generator, and will generate its own magnetic fields inside and outside the generator that will act to oppose the rotation of the input shaft of the generator (Lenz's Law).

                  Here is a link:
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law

                  Any magnetic flux not contained in the magnetic circuit of the generator will not be able to participate in any interactions inside the generator. Designers like to minimize this so that their generator design will be as efficient as possible.

                  The Lenz's law stuff is a zero-sum math trick that seems to work 100% of the time to make an energy transfer through magnetic fields become no more than 100% efficient. People have been trying to get around it for many years, with no success so far.

                  There are a few things on the web. Here is one:
                  http://newnewhkcc1976.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/how-to-beat-lenzs-law-in-electromagnetic-induction/



                  --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >         I really Do mean "leakage flux" -------------------- I apologise!   So, where does the  "leakage flux" come from in the first place?
                  > What I'm saying is;   If an electrical device calls for a certain amount of electricity, and as a direct consequence produces the correct
                  > amount of magnetic flux for the electricity called for ------------------ where does this leakage come from?     If it does come from the
                  > correct amount of electricity called for, surely that leaves the unknown (electrical) device, short of electrical current?
                  >  
                  > BILL.
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
                  > To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 13:26
                  > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > I guess at this level we might be talking about different things: "excess flux" vs "leakage flux".
                  >
                  > I don't know what "excess flux" is, but "leakage flux" to me means magnetic flux that is not contained in a magnetic circuit. For example when you put a keeper plate across the poles of a horseshoe magnet not all the flux is shunted through the keeper plate. The flux that is not shunted is "leakage flux" and is a very small portion of the total flux of the horseshoe magnet.
                  >
                • PAMELA NEIL
                  Tom,         Thanks again ----------------- although your answer makes perfect sense, my reason for asking these questions in the first place, has to
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 14 2:51 PM
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                    Tom,
                            Thanks again ----------------- although your answer makes perfect sense, my reason for asking these questions in the first place, has to do
                    with a design I've come up with, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure whether your answer applies.     If you could see with your own eyes,
                    just what I'm getting at ----------- you'd understand.   I'm not ready yet to 'go public', as I need more information.         Perhaps, one day, you'll
                    take a 'private' look, and may be able to help.
                     
                    BILL.

                    From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
                    To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 21:12
                    Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                     
                    If a generator is running, and is not connected to anything, and a voltage exists at its output terminals, and you then connect a load (such as a resistive heater), current will flow.
                    Accompanying this current will be an increased mechanical load at the input shaft of the generator. This is due to an interaction between the magnetic field in the generator and the magnetic field caused by the load current in the generator.

                    The generator itself is not perfect. The magnetic design of the generator cannot be perfect, so not all of the magnetic flux is contained. A little bit is not contained. This is leakage flux as we agree it should be called.

                    I don't know what happens with it, or where it goes, or whether or not it carries or dissipates any energy.

                    My guess here is that it does not carry any energy, unless we put something in the vicinity to tap it (load it). In this case we harness the leakage flux, drawing energy out of it, further increasing the mechanical load on the generator input shaft. In this case the amount of leakage flux we harness is no longer leaking out so it is no longer valid to call it "leakage flux". That part of the magnetic flux we do not harness can still be called "leakage flux" since it is basically not available.

                    The load (a resistive heater in this case) will not generate any flux on its own. The current (from the generator) flowing through it will also flow through the generator, and will generate its own magnetic fields inside and outside the generator that will act to oppose the rotation of the input shaft of the generator (Lenz's Law).

                    Here is a link:
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law

                    Any magnetic flux not contained in the magnetic circuit of the generator will not be able to participate in any interactions inside the generator. Designers like to minimize this so that their generator design will be as efficient as possible.

                    The Lenz's law stuff is a zero-sum math trick that seems to work 100% of the time to make an energy transfer through magnetic fields become no more than 100% efficient. People have been trying to get around it for many years, with no success so far.

                    There are a few things on the web. Here is one:
                    http://newnewhkcc1976.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/how-to-beat-lenzs-law-in-electromagnetic-induction/

                    --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >         I really Do mean "leakage flux" -------------------- I apologise!   So, where does the  "leakage flux" come from in the first place?
                    > What I'm saying is;   If an electrical device calls for a certain amount of electricity, and as a direct consequence produces the correct
                    > amount of magnetic flux for the electricity called for ------------------ where does this leakage come from?     If it does come from the
                    > correct amount of electricity called for, surely that leaves the unknown (electrical) device, short of electrical current?
                    >  
                    > BILL.
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
                    > To: mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 13:26
                    > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    > I guess at this level we might be talking about different things: "excess flux" vs "leakage flux".
                    >
                    > I don't know what "excess flux" is, but "leakage flux" to me means magnetic flux that is not contained in a magnetic circuit. For example when you put a keeper plate across the poles of a horseshoe magnet not all the flux is shunted through the keeper plate. The flux that is not shunted is "leakage flux" and is a very small portion of the total flux of the horseshoe magnet.
                    >

                  • Tom
                    I wish you the best of luck, but I have no interest in taking a private look.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 14 3:42 PM
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                      I wish you the best of luck, but I have no interest in taking a private look.

                      --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >         Thanks again ----------------- although your answer makes perfect sense, my reason for asking these questions in the first place, has to do
                      > with a design I've come up with, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure whether your answer applies.     If you could see with your own eyes,
                      > just what I'm getting at ----------- you'd understand.   I'm not ready yet to 'go public', as I need more information.         Perhaps, one day, you'll
                      > take a 'private' look, and may be able to help.
                      >  
                      > BILL.
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Tom <thomasjschum@...>
                      > To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 21:12
                      > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > If a generator is running, and is not connected to anything, and a voltage exists at its output terminals, and you then connect a load (such as a resistive heater), current will flow.
                      > Accompanying this current will be an increased mechanical load at the input shaft of the generator. This is due to an interaction between the magnetic field in the generator and the magnetic field caused by the load current in the generator.
                      >
                      > The generator itself is not perfect. The magnetic design of the generator cannot be perfect, so not all of the magnetic flux is contained. A little bit is not contained. This is leakage flux as we agree it should be called.
                      >
                      > I don't know what happens with it, or where it goes, or whether or not it carries or dissipates any energy.
                      >
                      > My guess here is that it does not carry any energy, unless we put something in the vicinity to tap it (load it). In this case we harness the leakage flux, drawing energy out of it, further increasing the mechanical load on the generator input shaft. In this case the amount of leakage flux we harness is no longer leaking out so it is no longer valid to call it "leakage flux". That part of the magnetic flux we do not harness can still be called "leakage flux" since it is basically not available.
                      >
                      > The load (a resistive heater in this case) will not generate any flux on its own. The current (from the generator) flowing through it will also flow through the generator, and will generate its own magnetic fields inside and outside the generator that will act to oppose the rotation of the input shaft of the generator (Lenz's Law).
                      >
                      > Here is a link:
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law
                      >
                      > Any magnetic flux not contained in the magnetic circuit of the generator will not be able to participate in any interactions inside the generator. Designers like to minimize this so that their generator design will be as efficient as possible.
                      >
                      > The Lenz's law stuff is a zero-sum math trick that seems to work 100% of the time to make an energy transfer through magnetic fields become no more than 100% efficient. People have been trying to get around it for many years, with no success so far.
                      >
                      > There are a few things on the web. Here is one:
                      > http://newnewhkcc1976.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/how-to-beat-lenzs-law-in-electromagnetic-induction/
                      >
                      > --- In mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com, PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tom,
                      > >         I really Do mean "leakage flux" -------------------- I apologise!   So, where does the  "leakage flux" come from in the first place?
                      > > What I'm saying is;   If an electrical device calls for a certain amount of electricity, and as a direct consequence produces the correct
                      > > amount of magnetic flux for the electricity called for ------------------ where does this leakage come from?     If it does come from the
                      > > correct amount of electricity called for, surely that leaves the unknown (electrical) device, short of electrical current?
                      > >  
                      > > BILL.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: Tom <thomasjschum@>
                      > > To: mailto:free_energy%40yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 13:26
                      > > Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > > I guess at this level we might be talking about different things: "excess flux" vs "leakage flux".
                      > >
                      > > I don't know what "excess flux" is, but "leakage flux" to me means magnetic flux that is not contained in a magnetic circuit. For example when you put a keeper plate across the poles of a horseshoe magnet not all the flux is shunted through the keeper plate. The flux that is not shunted is "leakage flux" and is a very small portion of the total flux of the horseshoe magnet.
                      > >
                      >
                    • PAMELA NEIL
                      Hi, All,           I recently asked Tom Schum if he d like to take a private look at my latest design to see if he could help me, in taking this
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 15 2:38 PM
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                        Hi, All,
                                  I recently asked Tom Schum if he'd like to take a 'private' look at my latest design to see if he could help me, in taking
                        this device further.   He however, declined (as he is perfectly at liberty to do).    I am now extending this offer to anyone else,
                        who would like to try and help.
                         
                        BILL.
                      • LA Copleston
                        Sure thing, I would like to have a look. Not sure if I can help or not, but worth a try. also seehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7mh0NuUsvg&feature=youtu.be
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 15 5:56 PM
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                          Sure thing, I would like to have a look.
                          Not sure if I can help or not, but worth a try.
                          also see
                           
                           
                           
                          L
                           
                           

                          From: PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...>
                          To: "free_energy@yahoogroups.com" <free_energy@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 2:38:54 PM
                          Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism



                          Hi, All,
                                    I recently asked Tom Schum if he'd like to take a 'private' look at my latest design to see if he could help me, in taking
                          this device further.   He however, declined (as he is perfectly at liberty to do).    I am now extending this offer to anyone else,
                          who would like to try and help.
                           
                          BILL.




                        • PAMELA NEIL
                          Thank You,                    For me to send my design to you, I first need your word, that you will NEVER divulge any of its content, to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 15 8:23 PM
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                            Thank You,
                                               For me to send my design to you, I first need your word, that you will NEVER divulge any of its content, to anyone,
                            other than me.     Also, make all your replies, directly to my wifes' email address, and NOT to free_energy.
                             
                            BILL.

                            From: LA Copleston <lorneazsk@...>
                            To: PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...>; "free_energy@yahoogroups.com" <free_energy@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, 16 July 2013, 1:56
                            Subject: Re: [free_energy] Re: magnetism

                            Sure thing, I would like to have a look.
                            Not sure if I can help or not, but worth a try.
                            also see
                             
                             
                             
                            L
                             
                             

                            From: PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...>
                            To: "free_energy@yahoogroups.com" <free_energy@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 2:38:54 PM
                            Subject: [free_energy] Re: magnetism



                            Hi, All,
                                      I recently asked Tom Schum if he'd like to take a 'private' look at my latest design to see if he could help me, in taking
                            this device further.   He however, declined (as he is perfectly at liberty to do).    I am now extending this offer to anyone else,
                            who would like to try and help.
                             
                            BILL.






                          • Laurent Damois
                            These 2 videos are fakes, because the motors are Galanz AC asynchron monophase brushless motors Ref GAL6309E - ZD (240V) or GAL6309U - ZD (120V) with squirel
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 20 8:44 AM
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                              These 2 videos are fakes, because the motors are Galanz AC asynchron monophase brushless motors
                              Ref GAL6309E - ZD (240V) or GAL6309U - ZD (120V) with squirel cage and frager spire (frager loop) for starting . 4Watts Microwave Fan motor . So they are motors WITHOUT PERMANENTS MAGNETS So they can start by spinning the Wheel.
                               
                            • Laurent Damois
                              Rectification: These 2 videos are fakes, because the motors are Galanz AC asynchron monophase brushless motors Ref GAL6309E - ZD (240V) or GAL6309U - ZD (120V)
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 20 8:47 AM
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                                Rectification:
                                These 2 videos are fakes, because the motors are Galanz AC asynchron monophase brushless motors
                                Ref GAL6309E - ZD (240V) or GAL6309U - ZD (120V) with squirel cage and frager spire (frager loop) for starting . 4Watts Microwave Fan motor . So they are motors WITHOUT PERMANENTS MAGNETS So they CANNOT start by spinning the Wheel.
                                 
                              • PAMELA NEIL
                                I ve asked the first part of this question before, and I have received several answers, different, but which were more or less, identical. I shall have to
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 19, 2014
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                                  I've asked the first part of this question before, and I have received several answers, different, but which were more or less, identical.
                                  I shall have to repeat this part of the question again, so that you can understand (hopefully), the next part!
                                  I was messing around with magnets, when I came across this  thing happening:   Two opposing 'poles' (e.g., N & N, or S & S), will repel each other.
                                  correct?  But, if a piece of soft-iron 'plate' is placed between them ----------- at the correct distance, of course, ----------  the two 'poles' do NOT repel,
                                  or, come to that, attract. IT IS, WHAT I CALL A 'DEAD -ZONE'!   Now for the second part of my question:   If the soft-iron 'plate' is quite long, how
                                  far along this 'plate', does this DEAD-ZONE extend (by moving one of the magnets along this 'plate' )?
                                  BILL.
                                • PAMELA NEIL
                                  If gaussing, only lines up the molecules, in an uncharged magnet, what would happen if this gaussing took place in 2 (opposite) directions, AT THE SAME
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jun 25, 2014
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                                    If gaussing, only lines up the molecules, in an 'uncharged' magnet, what would happen if this 'gaussing' took place in 2 (opposite) directions, AT THE
                                    SAME TIME?
                                    BILL.

                                  • Kirk McLoren
                                    Sum of the vectors.    “The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”  George Orwell On Wednesday, June 25, 2014
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 25, 2014
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                                      Sum of the vectors.
                                       
                                       “The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” 
                                      George Orwell




                                      On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:13 PM, "PAMELA NEIL pamela.neil@... [free_energy]" <free_energy-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                                       
                                      If gaussing, only lines up the molecules, in an 'uncharged' magnet, what would happen if this 'gaussing' took place in 2 (opposite) directions, AT THE
                                      SAME TIME?
                                      BILL.



                                    • PAMELA NEIL
                                      Can you be more specific? BILL. ________________________________ From: Kirk McLoren To: PAMELA NEIL ;
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jun 26, 2014
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                                        Can you be more specific?
                                        BILL.
                                        From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...>
                                        To: PAMELA NEIL <pamela.neil@...>; "free_energy@yahoogroups.com" <free_energy@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2014, 6:08
                                        Subject: Re: [free_energy] magnetism
                                        Sum of the vectors.
                                         
                                         “The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” 
                                        George Orwell



                                        On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:13 PM, "PAMELA NEIL pamela.neil@... [free_energy]" <free_energy-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                         
                                        If gaussing, only lines up the molecules, in an 'uncharged' magnet, what would happen if this 'gaussing' took place in 2 (opposite) directions, AT THE
                                        SAME TIME?
                                        BILL.

                                      • scottw76051
                                        Net result of magnitude and direction. Pamela said: Can you be more specific?
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jun 26, 2014
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                                          Net result of magnitude and direction.



                                          Pamela said:

                                          Can you be more specific?
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.