Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Ampere vs Maxwell

Expand Messages
  • Tom Schum
    Interesting link, in which the author describes how something important was lost when Maxwell s theoretical work took over electromagnetics generally:
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 1, 2008
      Interesting link, in which the author describes how something important
      was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over" electromagnetics
      generally:
      http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html

      Tom Schum
    • argona369
      Thanks for the link Tom. It reminds me of the testatika. On this photo you can see two different metals Cylinders in the big cans (large photo)
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 2, 2008
        Thanks for the link Tom.
        It reminds me of the testatika.
        On this photo you can see two different metals
        Cylinders in the "big cans"

        (large photo)
        http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/misc/testabig.jpg

        I have been reading moray and tesla.
        And they both talk about oscillatory inertia. (moray, "inertia sets
        in")
        Moray said that his device (he seems to talk about several different
        devices)
        Is made from concentric cylinders. Somehow continuously increases
        (shortens) oscillation
        Frequency (two paths, one feeding back faster (graphene?)), and the
        cycling of the capacitors is delayed or "stretched out" by inertia.

        Cliff,

        --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something
        important
        > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
        electromagnetics
        > generally:
        > http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html
        >
        > Tom Schum
        >
      • Michael Flora
        ... Ahem, 21st Century Science and Technology is Lyndon Larouche s magazine. I couldn t find who wrote the editorial, maybe Larouche but it seems too
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 2, 2008
          argona369 wrote:
          > Thanks for the link Tom.

          >> http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html

          Ahem, 21st Century Science and Technology is Lyndon Larouche's
          magazine. I couldn't find who wrote the editorial, maybe Larouche but
          it seems too technical for him.

          Regards,
          M.R.F.
          Agent 00e
          He sups pus, eh?
        • Michael Flora
          ... Oops, sorry I missed the sig. No, the name Laurence Hecht tells me nothing. The name Lyndon Larouche does tell me something though - Larouche is a nut.
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 3, 2008
            xingu1306 wrote:
            > Micheal,
            >
            > There is a name under this piece, Laurence Hecht. Does this name tell
            > you anything?
            >

            Oops, sorry I missed the sig.

            No, the name Laurence Hecht tells me nothing. The name Lyndon
            Larouche does tell me something though - Larouche is a nut.

            Regards,
            M.R.F.
            Agent 00e
            Ah, stun ten 'Net nuts, ha!
          • Tom Schum
            What I found especially interesting was the little diagram from the Ampere book showing a rod magnet floating in mercury, and rotating on its axis. This from
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 3, 2008
              What I found especially interesting was the little diagram from the
              Ampere book showing a rod magnet floating in mercury, and rotating on
              its axis. This from 1822, supposedly! Nowadays you can find lots of
              videos of the same thing, but was that the first?

              It whets my appetite to try to find more of Ampere's book, and maybe
              if it is on the web somewhere I could read it with one of those text
              translator tools.

              Anyone seen Ampere's book on the web?

              Tom Schum

              --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Flora" <infinet.llc@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > xingu1306 wrote:
              > > Micheal,
              > >
              > > There is a name under this piece, Laurence Hecht. Does this name
              tell
              > > you anything?
              > >
              >
              > Oops, sorry I missed the sig.
              >
              > No, the name Laurence Hecht tells me nothing. The name Lyndon
              > Larouche does tell me something though - Larouche is a nut.
              >
              > Regards,
              > M.R.F.
              > Agent 00e
              > Ah, stun ten 'Net nuts, ha!
              >
            • Gary S.
              Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave exactly as Maxwell and Einstein predict. I d like to see him account for gravitational field effects on
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 4, 2008
                Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave exactly as
                Maxwell and Einstein predict. I'd like to see him account for
                gravitational field effects on EM wavelength, or how to predict,
                exactly, the strength of a magnetic field between two conducting
                copper wires from first principles.

                --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@...> wrote:
                >
                > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something important
                > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over" electromagnetics
                > generally:
                > http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html
                >
                > Tom Schum
                >
              • Tom Schum
                A friend forwarded to me a scan of the 1822 French original. All I need to do is translate it. I understand that this book has never been translated into
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 5, 2008
                  A friend forwarded to me a scan of the 1822 French original. All I
                  need to do is translate it. I understand that this book has never
                  been translated into English, except for oddball parts of it.

                  Has anyone heard of an English translation?

                  Book title is "Expose Des Nouvelles Sur L'Electricite Et Le
                  Magnetisme", Par MM Ampere, Membre de l'Academie royale des Sciences

                  It's pretty interesting with lots of diagrams of experimental setups,
                  discussion of experimental results, discussion of the work of others
                  and so on. About 100 pages long.

                  Funny that no one would translate this for all these years.

                  Tom Schum

                  --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Gary S." <garys_2k@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave exactly as
                  > Maxwell and Einstein predict. I'd like to see him account for
                  > gravitational field effects on EM wavelength, or how to predict,
                  > exactly, the strength of a magnetic field between two conducting
                  > copper wires from first principles.
                  >
                  > --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something
                  important
                  > > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
                  electromagnetics
                  > > generally:
                  > > http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html
                  > >
                  > > Tom Schum
                  > >
                  >
                • Mr. J
                  Now there is a great opportunity to make money in the Free Energy field. Get the book translated and self-publish it. I think I wouldn t mind partnering in
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2008
                    Now there is a great opportunity to make money in the Free Energy field.

                    Get the book translated and self-publish it. I think I wouldn't mind partnering in that endeavor.

                    -j-


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Tom Schum <thomasjschum@...>
                    To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:22:04 AM
                    Subject: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell

                    A friend forwarded to me a scan of the 1822 French original. All I
                    need to do is translate it. I understand that this book has never
                    been translated into English, except for oddball parts of it.

                    Has anyone heard of an English translation?

                    Book title is "Expose Des Nouvelles Sur L'Electricite Et Le
                    Magnetisme", Par MM Ampere, Membre de l'Academie royale des Sciences

                    It's pretty interesting with lots of diagrams of experimental setups,
                    discussion of experimental results, discussion of the work of others
                    and so on. About 100 pages long.

                    Funny that no one would translate this for all these years.

                    Tom Schum

                    --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary S." <garys_2k@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave exactly as
                    > Maxwell and Einstein predict. I'd like to see him account for
                    > gravitational field effects on EM wavelength, or how to predict,
                    > exactly, the strength of a magnetic field between two conducting
                    > copper wires from first principles.
                    >
                    > --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@ >
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something
                    important
                    > > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
                    electromagnetics
                    > > generally:
                    > > http://www.21stcent urysciencetech. com/edit. html
                    > >
                    > > Tom Schum
                    > >
                    >


                  • Tom Schum
                    J,   My wife said it is incredibly difficult to find competent translators.  Not only that, this is a scientific treatise, and will have odd terms in
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2008

                      J,

                       

                      My wife said it is incredibly difficult to find competent translators.  Not only that, this is a scientific treatise, and will have odd terms in it.

                       

                      Also, there would have to be some obscure words in the text, since it was written 186 years ago.  Even the French language would have to change a little in that long a time.

                       

                      If I were doing it and had my choices, I would want to repeat the experiments one by one, then document them with modern methods.  This would be placed in the book too, and might swell it up to 300 pages.  Certainly, it would become a basic reference work worldwide.

                       

                      Ampere had a sort of algebra regarding these phenomena, which was later replaced (in the mainstream community) with Maxwell's and Faraday's work.  If there is something sufficienty obscure to be found in Ampere's work, something possibly surprising to moderns that can be duplicated, that could very well be important.

                       

                      Mainly I will be looking for that. 

                       

                      The grand translation production would have to have a serious reason to see the light of day. 

                       

                      If you like, I can email you the document privately.

                       

                      Tom Schum

                      --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Mr. J <jaemsjohn@...> wrote:

                      From: Mr. J <jaemsjohn@...>
                      Subject: Re: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell
                      To: "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@...>, free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 8:55 AM

                      Now there is a great opportunity to make money in the Free Energy field.

                      Get the book translated and self-publish it. I think I wouldn't mind partnering in that endeavor.

                      -j-


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Tom Schum <thomasjschum@...>
                      To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:22:04 AM
                      Subject: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell

                      A friend forwarded to me a scan of the 1822 French original. All I
                      need to do is translate it. I understand that this book has never
                      been translated into English, except for oddball parts of it.

                      Has anyone heard of an English translation?

                      Book title is "Expose Des Nouvelles Sur L'Electricite Et Le
                      Magnetisme", Par MM Ampere, Membre de l'Academie royale des Sciences

                      It's pretty interesting with lots of diagrams of experimental setups,
                      discussion of experimental results, discussion of the work of others
                      and so on. About 100 pages long.

                      Funny that no one would translate this for all these years.

                      Tom Schum

                      --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary S." <garys_2k@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave exactly as
                      > Maxwell and Einstein predict. I'd like to see him account for
                      > gravitational field effects on EM wavelength, or how to predict,
                      > exactly, the strength of a magnetic field between two conducting
                      > copper wires from first principles.
                      >
                      > --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@ >
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something
                      important
                      > > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
                      electromagnetics
                      > > generally:
                      > > http://www.21stcent urysciencetech. com/edit. html
                      > >
                      > > Tom Schum
                      > >
                      >


                    • Tom Schum
                      OOPS! My friend said there might be issues if I share the document. Eventually I hope to identify the source so anyone can go download it. Thanks, Tom Schum
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2008
                        OOPS!
                        My friend said there might be issues if I share the document.

                        Eventually I hope to identify the source so anyone can go download it.

                        Thanks,
                        Tom Schum

                        --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, Tom Schum <thomasjschum@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > J,
                        >  
                        > My wife said it is incredibly difficult to find competent
                        translators.  Not only that, this is a scientific treatise, and
                        will have odd terms in it.
                        >  
                        > Also, there would have to be some obscure words in the text, since
                        it was written 186 years ago.  Even the French language would
                        have to change a little in that long a time.
                        >  
                        > If I were doing it and had my choices, I would want to repeat the
                        experiments one by one, then document them with modern methods. 
                        This would be placed in the book too, and might swell it up to 300
                        pages.  Certainly, it would become a basic reference work
                        worldwide.
                        >  
                        > Ampere had a sort of algebra regarding these phenomena, which was
                        later replaced (in the mainstream community) with Maxwell's and
                        Faraday's work.  If there is something sufficienty obscure to be
                        found in Ampere's work, something possibly surprising to moderns
                        that can be duplicated, that could very well be
                        important.
                        >  
                        > Mainly I will be looking for that. 
                        >  
                        > The grand translation production would have to have a serious
                        reason to see the light of day. 
                        >  
                        > If you like, I can email you the document privately.
                        >  
                        > Tom Schum
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Mr. J jaemsjohn@... wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Mr. J jaemsjohn@...
                        > Subject: Re: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell
                        > To: "Tom Schum" thomasjschum@..., free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 8:55 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Now there is a great opportunity to make money in the Free Energy
                        field.
                        >
                        >
                        > Get the book translated and self-publish it. I think I wouldn't
                        mind partnering in that endeavor.
                        >
                        >
                        > -j-
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Tom Schum thomasjschum@...
                        > To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:22:04 AM
                        > Subject: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > A friend forwarded to me a scan of the 1822 French original. All I
                        > need to do is translate it. I understand that this book has never
                        > been translated into English, except for oddball parts of it.
                        >
                        > Has anyone heard of an English translation?
                        >
                        > Book title is "Expose Des Nouvelles Sur L'Electricite Et Le
                        > Magnetisme", Par MM Ampere, Membre de l'Academie royale des Sciences
                        >
                        > It's pretty interesting with lots of diagrams of experimental
                        setups,
                        > discussion of experimental results, discussion of the work of
                        others
                        > and so on. About 100 pages long.
                        >
                        > Funny that no one would translate this for all these years.
                        >
                        > Tom Schum
                        >
                        > --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary S." garys_2k@ .>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave exactly
                        as
                        > > Maxwell and Einstein predict. I'd like to see him account for
                        > > gravitational field effects on EM wavelength, or how to
                        predict,
                        > > exactly, the strength of a magnetic field between two
                        conducting
                        > > copper wires from first principles.
                        > >
                        > > --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Schum"
                        <thomasjschum@ >
                        > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Interesting link, in which the author describes how
                        something
                        > important
                        > > > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
                        > electromagnetics
                        > > > generally:
                        > > > http://www.21stcent urysciencetech. com/edit. html
                        > > >
                        > > > Tom Schum
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Tom Schum
                        Here is how to download your own PDF copy: It seems to me to be available for free. 1. Go to http://books.google.com 2. Search for Exposé des nouvelles
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 5, 2008
                          Here is how to download your own PDF copy:
                          It seems to me to be available for free.

                          1. Go to http://books.google.com

                          2. Search for "Exposé des nouvelles découvertes sur l'électricité"
                          and be sure to include the quotation marks on each end as shown.

                          The book should be listed in the first 10 search results. Date is
                          1822, and it has less than 100 pages.

                          You might have to join (or something like it) google to access a
                          copy, but this is free and very easy. Download is less than 4 meg.

                          Enjoy!

                          Tom Schum
                          PS in other searching I did for this book, I found a reference to
                          some claim of Ampere's that was later "disproven" by Faraday, but I
                          forgot exactly what that claim was. At least, there is a very old
                          controversy, and Ampere got the short end of the stick. Maybe there
                          was good reason, I don't know. Interesting...

                          >
                          > --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, Tom Schum <thomasjschum@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > J,
                          > >  
                          > > My wife said it is incredibly difficult to find competent
                          > translators.  Not only that, this is a scientific treatise,
                          and
                          > will have odd terms in it.
                          > >  
                          > > Also, there would have to be some obscure words in the text,
                          since
                          > it was written 186 years ago.  Even the French language would
                          > have to change a little in that long a time.
                          > >  
                          > > If I were doing it and had my choices, I would want to repeat the
                          > experiments one by one, then document them with modern
                          methods. 
                          > This would be placed in the book too, and might swell it up to 300
                          > pages.  Certainly, it would become a basic reference work
                          > worldwide.
                          > >  
                          > > Ampere had a sort of algebra regarding these phenomena, which was
                          > later replaced (in the mainstream community) with Maxwell's and
                          > Faraday's work.  If there is something sufficienty obscure to
                          be
                          > found in Ampere's work, something possibly surprising to moderns
                          > that can be duplicated, that could very well be
                          > important.
                          > >  
                          > > Mainly I will be looking for that. 
                          > >  
                          > > The grand translation production would have to have a serious
                          > reason to see the light of day. 
                          > >  
                          > > If you like, I can email you the document privately.
                          > >  
                          > > Tom Schum
                          > >
                          > > --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Mr. J jaemsjohn@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From: Mr. J jaemsjohn@
                          > > Subject: Re: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell
                          > > To: "Tom Schum" thomasjschum@, free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 8:55 AM
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Now there is a great opportunity to make money in the Free Energy
                          > field.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Get the book translated and self-publish it. I think I wouldn't
                          > mind partnering in that endeavor.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -j-
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message ----
                          > > From: Tom Schum thomasjschum@
                          > > To: free_energy@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:22:04 AM
                          > > Subject: [free_energy] Re: Ampere vs Maxwell
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > A friend forwarded to me a scan of the 1822 French original. All
                          I
                          > > need to do is translate it. I understand that this book has never
                          > > been translated into English, except for oddball parts of it.
                          > >
                          > > Has anyone heard of an English translation?
                          > >
                          > > Book title is "Expose Des Nouvelles Sur L'Electricite Et Le
                          > > Magnetisme", Par MM Ampere, Membre de l'Academie royale des
                          Sciences
                          > >
                          > > It's pretty interesting with lots of diagrams of experimental
                          > setups,
                          > > discussion of experimental results, discussion of the work of
                          > others
                          > > and so on. About 100 pages long.
                          > >
                          > > Funny that no one would translate this for all these years.
                          > >
                          > > Tom Schum
                          > >
                          > > --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary S." garys_2k@ .>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Too bad for him that so many observed phenomena behave
                          exactly
                          > as
                          > > > Maxwell and Einstein predict. I'd like to see him account for
                          > > > gravitational field effects on EM wavelength, or how to
                          > predict,
                          > > > exactly, the strength of a magnetic field between two
                          > conducting
                          > > > copper wires from first principles.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In free_energy@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Schum"
                          > <thomasjschum@ >
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Interesting link, in which the author describes how
                          > something
                          > > important
                          > > > > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
                          > > electromagnetics
                          > > > > generally:
                          > > > > http://www.21stcent urysciencetech. com/edit. html
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tom Schum
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Tom Schum
                          I did OCR on page 74 of the Ampere 1822 PDF book, then passed it thru Google s online translation tool. Anyone out there who is a pro, or at least a little
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 13, 2008
                            I did OCR on page 74 of the Ampere 1822 PDF book, then passed it thru
                            Google's online translation tool.
                            Anyone out there who is a pro, or at least a little knowledgeable,
                            please tell me, is there is an easy way for me to get better English
                            results?

                            Thanks,
                            Tom Schum

                            Here is the OCR output text, edited by me for accuracy. This is the
                            text I submitted to the Google tool:

                            Cette spirale suspendue convenablement est dirigée par le globe et
                            inclinée comme l'équateur d'une aiguille aimantée , par une action
                            semblable à celle qui dirige et incline les fils simples des
                            conducteurs , fig. 6 et 12. Mais l'effet le plus remarquable de cette
                            disposition du fil , consiste dans l'action très-énergique de
                            l'aimant sur ces spirales dont les fils redoublés sont analogues aux
                            courans qui ont lieu dans une même tranche de l'aimant.
                            Pour observer ces effets à l'abri de l'influence du globe, il faut
                            suspendre le conducteur , fig. 29 ,
                            Fig. 29.

                            aux coupes de l'appareil de la fig. 3 , d'après la méthode dont nous
                            avons jusqu'ici fait usage. Les deux spirales dont ce conducteur
                            ABCDEF est composé sont disposées de manière que l'action du globe
                            tende à les faire tourner en sens contraire et ne puisse par
                            conséquent leur imprimer aucun mouvement. On présente le bout de
                            l'aimant vis-à-vis du centre de l'une des spiralés ; si dans cette
                            spirale le courant tourne autour du centre dans le méme sens que les
                            courans de l'aimant autour dé son axe

                            Here is the translated result:

                            This spiral suspended properly is headed by the world and inclined to
                            the equator of a magnetized needle, an action similar to that which
                            directs and tilts the simple son of drivers, fig. 6 and 12. But the
                            most remarkable effect of this provision of wire, is in action very
                            strong magnet on these spirals whose son redoubled are similar to
                            courans taking place in a single tranche of the magnet.
                            To observe these effects against the influence of the globe, we must
                            suspend the driver, fig. 29,
                            Fig. 29.

                            bowls of the device in Fig. 3, according to the method we used so
                            far. The two spiral in which the driver is composed ABCDEF are
                            arranged so that the action of the globe tends to be rotated in
                            opposite directions and therefore can not print them any movement. On
                            this the end of the magnet vis-à-vis the center of a spiral, and if
                            this spiral in the course revolves around the centre in the same
                            sense that courans the magnet around its axis dice


                            --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Here is how to download your own PDF copy:
                            > It seems to me to be available for free.
                            >
                            > 1. Go to http://books.google.com
                            >
                            > 2. Search for "Exposé des nouvelles découvertes sur l'électricité"
                            > and be sure to include the quotation marks on each end as shown.
                            >
                            > The book should be listed in the first 10 search results. Date is
                            > 1822, and it has less than 100 pages.
                            >
                            > You might have to join (or something like it) google to access a
                            > copy, but this is free and very easy. Download is less than 4 meg.
                            >
                            > Enjoy!
                            >
                            > Tom Schum
                          • Phil Karn
                            ... For so-called swindles , I d say that Maxwell s equations and special relativity have both proven pretty damn successful over the past 100+ years.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 14, 2008
                              On 6/1/08, Tom Schum <thomasjschum@...> wrote:
                              > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something important
                              > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over" electromagnetics
                              > generally:
                              > http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html

                              For so-called "swindles", I'd say that Maxwell's equations and special
                              relativity have both proven pretty damn successful over the past 100+
                              years.
                            • Tom Schum
                              Phil, No doubt Maxwell s equations, Heaviside s interpretations of them, and later developments such as special relativity have all been wonderfully
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 14, 2008
                                Phil,

                                No doubt Maxwell's equations, Heaviside's interpretations of them,
                                and later developments such as special relativity have all been
                                wonderfully successful.

                                However, it remains possible that in the whirlwind process of
                                development, something simple and probably small "got missed".

                                If so, this would not invalidate all that has gone on, not by any
                                means.

                                These are issues that no longer are (or really ever have been)
                                discussed in classrooms. The old controversies give way to things
                                that appear to be more coherent, theories that seem to better cover
                                reality, and so on. The "better" theories become the ones that get
                                taught, and they become the ones that get used.

                                Later, when the dust has settled, there might be time to revisit the
                                old controversies in light of the progress of the last 200 years.
                                Maybe there is something lost, waiting to be found. Revisiting old
                                controversies might lead to new pathways. Now is later. It's time.

                                One possible place to start might be that book of Ampere's, still not
                                translated into English after 186 years. Of course, there might not
                                be anything there...

                                I bought an OCR program (OmniPage16) and am trying to move forward.
                                Scan quality is not especially good, so it will take a lot of editing
                                to get good text for the translation software to deal with.
                                Eventually people like my wife who know a little French will have to
                                proof-read and do the final edits.

                                Like most of my other experiments, this one might not lead anywhere
                                either.

                                Tom Schum

                                --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Karn" <karn@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On 6/1/08, Tom Schum <thomasjschum@...> wrote:
                                > > Interesting link, in which the author describes how something
                                important
                                > > was lost when Maxwell's theoretical work "took over"
                                electromagnetics
                                > > generally:
                                > > http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/edit.html
                                >
                                > For so-called "swindles", I'd say that Maxwell's equations and
                                special
                                > relativity have both proven pretty damn successful over the past
                                100+
                                > years.
                                >
                              • Kim Jay Rogozinsky
                                ... Perhaps. But there is two points to address: 1) Can we call polluting the environment successful. 2) If a vector-like potentialization was removed from
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 14, 2008
                                  "Phil Karn" wrote:
                                   
                                  > For so-called "swindles", I'd say that Maxwell's equations
                                  > and special relativity have both proven pretty damn
                                  > successful over the past 100+ years.
                                   
                                  Perhaps.  But there is two points to address:
                                   
                                  1)  Can we call polluting the environment successful.
                                   
                                  2) If a vector-like potentialization was removed from
                                  an equation-set, the result could easily be
                                  successful and at the same time hide much
                                  potential.
                                   
                                  For example, If I had an equation-set that quantified
                                  gravity - both positive and negative - and someone
                                  removed the negative bit - one would still conclude
                                  the resulting equation quite successful ... being
                                  ever accurate with positive gravity observations
                                  and measurements.
                                   
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                  KiJa
                                   
                                • Gary S.
                                  ... Possible, maybe, but highly, highly unlikely. Since every new model has to meet the experimental criteria solved by the old, PLUS be consistent with other,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 19, 2008
                                    --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Schum" <thomasjschum@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Phil,
                                    >
                                    > No doubt Maxwell's equations, Heaviside's interpretations of them,
                                    > and later developments such as special relativity have all been
                                    > wonderfully successful.
                                    >
                                    > However, it remains possible that in the whirlwind process of
                                    > development, something simple and probably small "got missed".

                                    Possible, maybe, but highly, highly unlikely. Since every new model
                                    has to meet the experimental criteria solved by the old, PLUS be
                                    consistent with other, related models, PLUS successfully predict
                                    (within experimental precision) new phenomena that better technology
                                    lets us observe, "missing something" gets harder and harder to do.
                                  • Gary S.
                                    ... Huh? What the h*** does successfully predicting observed phenomena have to do with pollution? ... Nope. Symmetry is the first thing that s checked out and
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 19, 2008
                                      --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, Kim Jay Rogozinsky <et.jayr@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > "Phil Karn" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > For so-called "swindles", I'd say that Maxwell's equations
                                      > > and special relativity have both proven pretty damn
                                      > > successful over the past 100+ years.
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps. But there is two points to address:
                                      >
                                      > 1) Can we call polluting the environment successful.
                                      >

                                      Huh? What the h*** does successfully predicting observed phenomena
                                      have to do with pollution?

                                      > 2) If a vector-like potentialization was removed from
                                      > an equation-set, the result could easily be
                                      > successful and at the same time hide much
                                      > potential.
                                      >
                                      > For example, If I had an equation-set that quantified
                                      > gravity - both positive and negative - and someone
                                      > removed the negative bit - one would still conclude
                                      > the resulting equation quite successful ... being
                                      > ever accurate with positive gravity observations
                                      > and measurements.

                                      Nope. Symmetry is the first thing that's checked out and looked for.
                                      That was one of the mysteries of magnetism -- why no single poles? We
                                      have single electric charges, but magnets only ever come in pairs.
                                    • Tom Schum
                                      Using OmniPage16 OCR software and web-based Babylon translation, I have translated the first three pages of the 1822 Ampere book. This translation is poor by
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 22, 2008
                                        Using OmniPage16 OCR software and web-based Babylon translation, I
                                        have translated the first three pages of the 1822 Ampere book. This
                                        translation is poor by human standards, but nominally adequate to get
                                        the meaning in English I think.

                                        Basically what Ampere is saying is that there are two kinds of
                                        electricity, positive electricity and negative electricity. He goes
                                        on to describe how others decided to say there is just one kind but
                                        this is not correct.

                                        The two kinds of electricity flow in opposite directions in a wire
                                        and when they meet they destroy each other.

                                        This sounds a lot like semiconductor holes and electrons meeting in
                                        the semiconductor junction.

                                        In modern times there is a strong belief that there is only one kind
                                        of electricity that can flow in wires, of course.

                                        On the web you can find references to crackpot articles about cold
                                        electricity, magnetic currents, and so on.

                                        Does the idea of two opposite kinds of electricity flowing in wires
                                        in opposite directions cause any trouble to modern technology? I
                                        don't think so. It is a little more complicated than thinking about
                                        just one kind of electricity flowing in wires, but the general result
                                        seems to work out to be the same. What is possibly significant is
                                        that by thinking in terms of only one kind of electricity flowing in
                                        wires we may be leaving ourselves out of half the picture. This
                                        could mean that more is possible than presently believed. So I will
                                        continue to pursue translation of the Ampere book.

                                        Tom Schum

                                        PS: Here are the unadulterated and chaotic machine translation
                                        results for pages 1-3 (Aut, the book is full of very long sentences!):

                                        "Distinctness of two species of électricitè.

                                        We recognize, according to the doctrine adopted in France and by many
                                        physicists foreigners, the existing-dence of two fluids electrical,
                                        likely to be neu-traliser one another, and whose combination in pro-
                                        portions determined, is the natural state of body. This theory
                                        provides a simple explanation of all the facts; and, subject to the
                                        acid test of calculation, it works who agree with the experience, but
                                        the names of positive and negative appear to be à-servés:

                                        Because these words positive and negative designate, all applications
                                        of mathematical analysis, two kinds of existing sizes also; but such
                                        that when they are absolute values equal, they destroy each other by
                                        their meeting; and that, when they have absolute values uneven, the
                                        effect of this meeting is to give a value equal to their difference
                                        and even sign than that which the absolute value is

                                        Page 2:
                                        the largest, gold, it is precisely what is held at the two
                                        electricity.

                                        2 Because the employment of these words, taken in this sense,
                                        provides the means to bring to a general statement of facts, that
                                        could not describe, without recourse, that in-focus in the detail of
                                        every individual cases that they pre-feel. By keeping the two
                                        electricity the names of electricity positive and negative
                                        electricity, and hears-ant these two expressions in the sense that it
                                        gives them in geometry, they can say, e.g, that when we did receive
                                        two metal spheres isolated, even diameter, and differently charged,
                                        they pre-feeling, after that they were separated, electricity equal
                                        to the half-sum of their electricity primitive; and this statement
                                        will include the various cases where the two electricity are
                                        positive, where both are negative, where one is positive and the
                                        other negative, either as is positive has a greater or lesser
                                        absolute value than the other; of even, if a disk of zinc re-poses on
                                        a disk of copper and électrisé isolated, they expressed-simple the
                                        state's electricity zinc, by saying that there is between this state
                                        and of copper a difference constant, always positive, that the copper
                                        either to the state positive or negative; while depriving themselves
                                        of relief that derives from the consideration of signs more and less
                                        than two Mail-tricités, he should use a different statement in each
                                        of these cases.
                                        3 Because the words of electricity glass and electricity résineuse,
                                        not only express point property that have the two electricity to
                                        neutralize each other, who is the most character essential, but
                                        indicate that the glass always takes 1' electricity positive; and the
                                        resin electricity negative, whatever the substances which are rubbing
                                        his, which is à-milking (contrary to) the experience.
                                        4 Because the use of expressions of electricity positive and
                                        negative electricity, is generally accepted by the physicists of
                                        other nations, and he is even in France by those who do not affect
                                        not only use of denominations that have been substituted. This change
                                        was without grounds; and when we admitted the existence of two

                                        Page 3:
                                        fluids, they should say: they are one with regard to the other
                                        properties of opposing sizes positive and negative of the geometry;
                                        one must therefore be called the fluid positive, and the other fluid
                                        negative; the choice is arbitrary, as it chooses arbitrarily the side
                                        of the axis of a curve where its x are positive; but then those of
                                        the other side must necessarily be considered negative; and shares
                                        choice once made, as he has been in respect of two electricity, we
                                        must no longer the change.

                                        Properties new drivers grid, and consequences that result in relation
                                        to the cause of magnetic phenomena.

                                        Dâns the battery isolated, each species of electricity is apparent at
                                        one of the extremities of the aircraft, electricity positive at the
                                        tip zinc, and electricity negative at the tip copper. This effect,
                                        substantially to the électromètre and the capacitor, is now despite
                                        the causes which tend to discharge the battery, it follows that the
                                        separation of two electricity, which was held in each element, and
                                        who is constantly electricity positive to one of

                                        Mr. J. Chr. Oersted, professor of physics at the University of
                                        Copenhagen, announced for the first time in 1820, that the needle
                                        aimantée change of direction by the influence of the aircraft
                                        voltaique; that this effect was link when the circuit was formed, and
                                        not when he was interrupted. Mr. Ampere, a member of the Academy of
                                        Sciences Institute, is quickly to take care of various experiences in
                                        this regard, in the sight of first to complete the work of Danish
                                        scientist professor. But soon discovered him-méme, another par-tion
                                        of photovoltaic exerçeit circuit, without the presence of any magnet,
                                        a new kind of action on the wire through which this circuit is
                                        established. The knowledge of this fact led Mr. Ampere to several
                                        other comments, which he gave successively communication to the
                                        Academy of Sciences, and consequences that it in déduisit, and whose
                                        overall aim is to establish the identity of electricity and magnetism.
                                        The outlines of new phenomena of such great importance could only be
                                        usefully placed in this Supplement, talking about electricity; this
                                        presentation was made by Mr. Babinet, professor of physics at pasted
                                        Royal de Saint-Louis, jointly with Mr. Ampere, which owned the theory
                                        that there is developed and all, the experiences that the author is
                                        not named as well as the réflexiones which precede on distinctien of
                                        two cash of electricity.
                                        In designating the two ends of the battery we assume...."
                                        ----------end of translation text so far--------
                                      • catboat15@aol.com
                                        Sure there is two kinds of electricity. Every light socket in your house has two wires (I hope plus a ground wire for your own safety) One theory is that
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 29, 2008
                                          Sure there is two kinds of electricity.  Every light socket in your house has two wires (I hope plus a ground wire for your own safety)  One theory is that one wire carries electricity to your light or computer, TV whatever and the other wire sends that electricity back to the power company which they then sell over again to your neighbors.
                                           




                                          Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
                                        • krishields
                                          ... your house ... theory is ... whatever and ... which they then ... ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ... Most light socket dont have a ground wire persay... The
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 29, 2008
                                            --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, catboat15@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Sure there is two kinds of electricity. Every light socket in
                                            your house
                                            > has two wires (I hope plus a ground wire for your own safety) One
                                            theory is
                                            > that one wire carries electricity to your light or computer, TV
                                            whatever and
                                            > the other wire sends that electricity back to the power company
                                            which they then
                                            > sell over again to your neighbors.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
                                            > fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?
                                            ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
                                            >

                                            Most light socket dont have a ground wire persay... The ground doesnt
                                            go anywhere in the light fixture box - except to the box itself
                                            (which does nothing).

                                            AC pulsates in the wire that hooks up to your house. It's quite
                                            similar to what happens to a wave in a pan of water. The electrons
                                            stay in a relatively fixed position while the energy gets transfered
                                            in a chain reaction, which happens to be in a wave form.

                                            DC actually transmits electrons through the wire, which resists the
                                            current and thus a much larger wire is needed. DC is quite dirty. Its
                                            very unnatural. AC is a much cleaner and more natural way to transmit
                                            energy ( since EVERYTHING seems to move in a waveform ).

                                            The Neutral and the ground wires get hooked up at the same terminal
                                            in the your box. One large wire goes back to the PC, while the
                                            ground, well, gets grounded next to your house. AC is a bit
                                            interesting. Take for instance, a cow fence. You have a hot wire
                                            running around a perimeter. You are grounded (unless you jump) when
                                            you touch the wire. The electricity flows through you and into the
                                            ground - and boy do you feel it. So, if this is correct, then the
                                            large wire that goes back to the PC, gets grounded and cant be
                                            resold, as it completes the circuit. I think the grounding absorbs
                                            what energy transference is left over after you use it.

                                            The same amount of electricity that the people use is the same amount
                                            that must be grounded. What ever is left over, i suppose could be re-
                                            sold.

                                            That's my guess anyways.

                                            I am wondering if Ampere meant AC versus DC. Not sure.

                                            Kris
                                          • Gary S.
                                            ... No. Electrons in the wires pulsate (move back and forth with no net movement, about a hundred-thousandth of an inch), but the electric ENERGY most
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jun 30, 2008
                                              --- In free_energy@yahoogroups.com, "krishields" <krishields@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Most light socket dont have a ground wire persay... The ground doesnt
                                              > go anywhere in the light fixture box - except to the box itself
                                              > (which does nothing).
                                              >
                                              > AC pulsates in the wire that hooks up to your house.

                                              No. Electrons in the wires "pulsate" (move back and forth with no net
                                              movement, about a hundred-thousandth of an inch), but the electric
                                              ENERGY most certainly does move continuously from the power plant to
                                              your lamp.

                                              http://amasci.com/miscon/energ1.html

                                              > It's quite
                                              > similar to what happens to a wave in a pan of water. The electrons
                                              > stay in a relatively fixed position while the energy gets transfered
                                              > in a chain reaction, which happens to be in a wave form.
                                              >

                                              Not quite. Electrical ENERGY flows through the fields surrounding and
                                              between the conductors, not through the wires themselves. If it did
                                              the wires would heat up WAAAY too much to be useful. Resistance in the
                                              wires causes them to consume some of the fields' energy and that does
                                              cause them to heat.

                                              http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/miscon/eleca.html#poynt

                                              > DC actually transmits electrons through the wire, which resists the
                                              > current and thus a much larger wire is needed.

                                              No. Both currents cause electron movement and the same size wire is
                                              needed for the same AC RMS current as an equivalent DC current.

                                              > DC is quite dirty.

                                              Not at all, it's very PURE. No noise, no need for filters.

                                              > Its
                                              > very unnatural. AC is a much cleaner and more natural way to
                                              > transmit
                                              > energy ( since EVERYTHING seems to move in a waveform ).

                                              Not at all. I don't move in a waveform, not much does that's not at
                                              quantum scales. DC power is quite "natural" as it is the starting
                                              point of static and chemically produced electricity, not to mention
                                              magnetically induced.

                                              > So, if this is correct, then the
                                              > large wire that goes back to the PC, gets grounded and cant be
                                              > resold, as it completes the circuit. I think the grounding absorbs
                                              > what energy transference is left over after you use it.
                                              >
                                              > The same amount of electricity that the people use is the same amount
                                              > that must be grounded. What ever is left over, i suppose could be re-
                                              > sold.

                                              Not quite. The ground connections in your home are for safety. Utility
                                              connections entirely use full conductor paths except for some
                                              intermediate voltage branches (usually at the street level) where a
                                              single Y primary conductor may feed a transformer and that
                                              transformer's return is via the ground.

                                              http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/miscon/eleca.html#power

                                              As for what can and cannot be sold, you buy ENERGY from the utility,
                                              not electrons. That energy is supplied via fields and you use what you
                                              allow to flow via the conductors' circuits past your meter. Some of
                                              these circuits are completed by almost entirely resistive paths, while
                                              others are combinations of resistive, inductive and capacitive.
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.