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Raton, NM - anything left to see?

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  • Jim Lowman
    We re flying to Albuquerque around the end of April to continue our search for Harvey Houses and AT&SF depots. Is there anything remaining at Raton to justify
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 2, 2008
      We're flying to Albuquerque around the end of April to
      continue our search for Harvey Houses and AT&SF
      depots.

      Is there anything remaining at Raton to justify the
      three-hour drive up there? If not, we'll hit Lamy and
      Las Vegas instead.

      Thanks,

      Jim
    • Dolores Mosser
      Hi Michael, would it be ok for us to use your comments on your stay at the Slaton Harvey House on our new Harvey House website? Just checking? Dolores Mosser
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 3, 2008
        Hi Michael, would it be ok for us to use your comments on your stay at the Slaton Harvey House on our new Harvey House website? Just checking? Dolores Mosser

        Michael McMillan <harvey_house@...> wrote:
        The "River Valley Pioneer Museum" in Canadian, Texas has a Santa Fe
        Railroad history page on their web site:

        http://www.riverval leymuseum. org/

        Go to: "EXHIBITS > RAILROAD" to get to the page on it, which includes
        bios of some of the local Harvey Girls.

        Note the building at the top of their site -- that is the Canadian
        Santa Fe Reading Room. I do not know if that is their Museum or not, I
        didn't see any mention that it was located there. Since that looks like
        a recent picture, perhaps it still exists. I do not think the depot or
        the Harvey House do, though.

        On the web page, there is a little slide show in the middle. You have
        to scroll quite a ways to get to the Harvey House pictures.

        --Michael


      • Michael McMillan
        ... Hello Dolores, Sure, if you think it d be helpful. You are welcome to use those. Any chance of putting a link to this Discussion Group on your web site?
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 3, 2008
          > Hi Michael, would it be ok for us to use your comments on your stay
          > at the Slaton Harvey House on our new Harvey House website? Just
          > checking? Dolores Mosser

          Hello Dolores,

          Sure, if you think it'd be helpful. You are welcome to use those.

          Any chance of putting a link to this Discussion Group on your web
          site?

          Thanks for considering that,

          Michael





          > Michael McMillan <harvey_house@...>
          wrote: The "River Valley Pioneer
          Museum" in Canadian, Texas has a Santa Fe
          > Railroad history page on their web site:
          >
          > http://www.rivervalleymuseum.org/
          >
          > Go to: "EXHIBITS > RAILROAD" to get to the page on it, which
          includes
          > bios of some of the local Harvey Girls.
          >
          > Note the building at the top of their site -- that is the Canadian
          > Santa Fe Reading Room. I do not know if that is their Museum or
          not, I
          > didn't see any mention that it was located there. Since that looks
          like
          > a recent picture, perhaps it still exists. I do not think the
          depot or
          > the Harvey House do, though.
          >
          > On the web page, there is a little slide show in the middle. You
          have
          > to scroll quite a ways to get to the Harvey House pictures.
          >
          > --Michael
          >
        • Michael McMillan
          ... Jim, I couldn t afford to get up there on my Grand Canyon trip, either, due to time constraints, but I did go to Las Vegas and Lamy. There is a very
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 3, 2008
            --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, Jim Lowman <jmlowman@...> wrote:

            > Is there anything remaining at Raton to justify the
            > three-hour drive up there? If not, we'll hit Lamy and
            > Las Vegas instead.

            Jim,

            I couldn't afford to get up there on my Grand Canyon trip, either, due
            to time constraints, but I did go to Las Vegas and Lamy.

            There is a very unique, very unusually-shaped Santa Fe depot at Raton.
            My son (in Denver) took some pictures of it for me when he met us in
            Santa Fe for the GC trip. The two witch's cap steeples have long ago
            been removed because they leaked. I'd still like to get up there myself
            someday to find out some things, especially since it was where the
            fight was which resulted in the men being fired and Harvey Girls coming
            into existence...

            Where was the original Harvey House compared to this existing depot?
            Any signs left of where it was?

            Did this existing depot have a Harvey news stand? There is a single big
            rectangular trackside window that looks like many of them, but I've not
            seen a period view that shows the merchandise plainly in evidence. I
            should think there might have been one, but have nothing substantial to
            go on. There also was a chimney on the depot. Could that have been from
            a little kitchen? Perhaps There might have been a little lunch counter.
            Again, nothing to go on, and likely there wasn't one. Which brings us
            back to whether there is anything there to see, or not. Depends what
            was in originally the depot, perhaps. I think there is some sort of
            little museum, visitor's center, or something there. Someone made my
            son copies of some old pictures (one showing the old Harvey House). A
            Harvey person knowing what kinds of questions to ask might find out
            something interesting.

            I still hope to go up there someday and also include Trinidad, La
            Junta, and Colorado Springs.

            Las Vegas:

            The Castaneda is definitely worth seeing. The fixed up depot is next
            door, too, and is a visitor center.

            Don't forget the Montezuma Hotel up in the hills north of town. There
            are only a handful of tours on certain Saturdays during a short part of
            the year. Otherwise, you can't go past the college's guard house at the
            base of the hill.

            Lamy:

            The small depot is still there, and is an Amtrak stop. You can ride a
            train to and from Lamy from Santa Fe (we didn't get to do that). Where
            the El Ortiz Hotel was is evident inside the low wire fence. Inside the
            fenced area is a historical marker about the El Ortiz which includes a
            nice blueprint of the layout. There is not much there in Lamy, but the
            one or two other places that were there were closed, so I didn't get to
            ask anybody anything. The one place looked like there were some
            historical exhibits inside.

            As far as stuff left to see, there really isn't any more than at Raton,
            I suppose. It is just closer to Albuquerque, that's all. Speaking of
            Albuquerque, is anything left of the old airport terminal where Harvey
            operated?

            --Michael
          • Jim Lowman
            ... This trip we re going to start with Albuquerque and go from there. Not sure of the exact itinerary, but the main constraint will be when we can get
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 3, 2008
              Thanks, Michael. Some comments below:

              --- Michael McMillan <harvey_house@...> wrote:

              > --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, Jim Lowman
              > <jmlowman@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Is there anything remaining at Raton to justify
              > the
              > > three-hour drive up there? If not, we'll hit Lamy
              > and
              > > Las Vegas instead.
              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > I couldn't afford to get up there on my Grand Canyon
              > trip, either, due
              > to time constraints, but I did go to Las Vegas and
              > Lamy.

              This trip we're going to start with Albuquerque and go
              from there. Not sure of the exact itinerary, but the
              main constraint will be when we can get reservations
              for a night or two at La Posada on the way back. As
              usual, time constraints (and not wanting to be on the
              road every day or for long distances at a time)
              conflict with the objective to see as much as
              possible. In addition to the depots/Harvey Houses, we
              plan to take in the Painted Desert and Petrified
              Forest.

              > There is a very unique, very unusually-shaped Santa
              > Fe depot at Raton.
              > My son (in Denver) took some pictures of it for me
              > when he met us in
              > Santa Fe for the GC trip. The two witch's cap
              > steeples have long ago
              > been removed because they leaked. I'd still like to
              > get up there myself
              > someday to find out some things, especially since it
              > was where the
              > fight was which resulted in the men being fired and
              > Harvey Girls coming
              > into existence...

              I had forgotten about that incident.

              Unfortunately, Raton is probably a three-hour drive
              each way from Albuquerque. We might try to go there
              for the first night, since our flight arrives at about
              11:15 AM, then start working our way back, possibly
              stopping at Lamy and Las Vegas.

              > Where was the original Harvey House compared to this
              > existing depot?
              > Any signs left of where it was?

              Not sure. I tried using Google Maps' satellite view,
              and I think I can see the depot that you described but
              not sure about adjacent structures. The website for
              the Raton CofC mentions the historic depot, but
              nothing about the Harvey House.

              > Did this existing depot have a Harvey news stand?
              > There is a single big
              > rectangular trackside window that looks like many of
              > them, but I've not
              > seen a period view that shows the merchandise
              > plainly in evidence. I
              > should think there might have been one, but have
              > nothing substantial to
              > go on. There also was a chimney on the depot. Could
              > that have been from
              > a little kitchen? Perhaps There might have been a
              > little lunch counter.
              > Again, nothing to go on, and likely there wasn't
              > one. Which brings us
              > back to whether there is anything there to see, or
              > not. Depends what
              > was in originally the depot, perhaps. I think there
              > is some sort of
              > little museum, visitor's center, or something there.
              > Someone made my
              > son copies of some old pictures (one showing the old
              > Harvey House). A
              > Harvey person knowing what kinds of questions to ask
              > might find out
              > something interesting.

              I'll do some more research before we go.

              > I still hope to go up there someday and also include
              > Trinidad, La
              > Junta, and Colorado Springs.

              At any rate, I'll take some photos to share with the
              group, as I did on the Needles/Kingman/Ash
              Fork/Williams/Flagstaff trip.

              > Las Vegas:
              >
              > The Castaneda is definitely worth seeing. The fixed
              > up depot is next
              > door, too, and is a visitor center.
              >
              > Don't forget the Montezuma Hotel up in the hills
              > north of town. There
              > are only a handful of tours on certain Saturdays
              > during a short part of
              > the year. Otherwise, you can't go past the college's
              > guard house at the
              > base of the hill.
              >
              > Lamy:
              >
              > The small depot is still there, and is an Amtrak
              > stop. You can ride a
              > train to and from Lamy from Santa Fe (we didn't get
              > to do that). Where
              > the El Ortiz Hotel was is evident inside the low
              > wire fence. Inside the
              > fenced area is a historical marker about the El
              > Ortiz which includes a
              > nice blueprint of the layout. There is not much
              > there in Lamy, but the
              > one or two other places that were there were closed,
              > so I didn't get to
              > ask anybody anything. The one place looked like
              > there were some
              > historical exhibits inside.
              >
              > As far as stuff left to see, there really isn't any
              > more than at Raton,
              > I suppose. It is just closer to Albuquerque, that's
              > all. Speaking of
              > Albuquerque, is anything left of the old airport
              > terminal where Harvey
              > operated?

              Not sure. Last time we flew into Albuquerque was
              maybe 10 years ago.

              > --Michael

              Thanks for all of the good information so far.
              Definitely we will go to Lamy and Las Vegas.

              Jim
            • Michael McMillan
              ... Yes, and there s the Painted Desert Inn Harvey House! It was closed when we were there, but the food and gift shop were in a building closer to the gate,
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 4, 2008
                > In addition to the depots/Harvey Houses, we
                > plan to take in the Painted Desert and Petrified
                > Forest.

                Yes, and there's the Painted Desert Inn Harvey House! It was closed
                when we were there, but the food and gift shop were in a building
                closer to the gate, anyway.

                > Unfortunately, Raton is probably a three-hour drive
                > each way from Albuquerque.

                Might not be worth it unless you were actually going up into Colorado.

                > > Where was the original Harvey House compared to this
                > > existing depot?
                > > Any signs left of where it was?
                >
                > Not sure. I tried using Google Maps' satellite view,
                > and I think I can see the depot that you described but
                > not sure about adjacent structures.

                Almost guitar-shaped - body with a long neck and head, at the foot of
                Cook Street. Google marks it as the Amtrak station. The other
                rectangular structure is the old Express building, I believe my son
                said.

                > The website for the Raton CofC mentions the historic depot, but
                > nothing about the Harvey House.

                It was one of the 19th century wooden ones. Could have been across
                the street, who knows. Unless someone told us where it was, we'd
                never figure it out, I don't think. I wonder if we'd see any sign of
                it, even if we knew!

                > Thanks for all of the good information so far.
                > Definitely we will go to Lamy and Las Vegas.

                I should say I heard that the Las Vegas Harvey Girls did not live
                upstairs in the Castaneda. They actually lived across the street
                above one of the brick storefront buildings -- the Rawlins Building,
                according to the Las Vegas Citizens' Committee for Historic
                Preservation.

                Tour the Railroad Avenue Historic District (or another part of town):

                http://lasvegasnmcchp.com/tours.htm

                "Rawlins Building
                515 Railroad Avenue; Built 1899
                Though in deteriorated condition, the Rawlins Building remains an
                outstanding architectural landmark. The building's pressed-metal
                front is one of less than a handful in New Mexico, and the recessed
                storefronts are intact. The upper story boasts a row of engaged Ionic
                columns and swage panels. The Harvey girls who staffed La Castaneda's
                dining room across the street lived here for many years during the
                early 20th century."
                http://lasvegasnmcchp.com/tours/railroad/1rawlins.htm

                Unfortunately, I didn't get any photos of that.

                Maybe you can find out something about the status of the Castenada,
                which is rumored to be for sale for an exorbitant sum?

                Las Vegas is a really nice-looking town, all the fancy old buildings.
                Wouldn't mind retiring there, judging from a brief look-see. Don't
                miss the old plaza, which is across the bridge to the west from the
                part of town that grew up after the railroad arrived.

                Hopefully you can also check out La Fonda in Santa Fe. We didn't have
                much time there to look around, just enough time to eat in the (now
                covered) patio. Nice little depot in Santa Fe, too.

                --Michael
              • Jim Lowman
                ... Thanks for that tip! We ll be sure to check it out. ... I was thinking in terms of a day trip from Santa Fe or Albuquerque. It would be reasonable to
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 4, 2008
                  Michael McMillan wrote:
                  > Yes, and there's the Painted Desert Inn Harvey House! It was closed
                  > when we were there, but the food and gift shop were in a building
                  > closer to the gate, anyway.
                  >
                  Thanks for that tip! We'll be sure to check it out.
                  >> Unfortunately, Raton is probably a three-hour drive
                  >> each way from Albuquerque.
                  >>
                  >
                  > Might not be worth it unless you were actually going up into Colorado.
                  >
                  I was thinking in terms of a day trip from Santa Fe or Albuquerque. It
                  would be reasonable to
                  drive to Raton after lunch and spend the night, probably trying to take
                  in Las Vegas and Lamy
                  on the way back.
                  >>> Where was the original Harvey House compared to this
                  >>> existing depot?
                  >>> Any signs left of where it was?
                  >>>

                  >>> Almost guitar-shaped - body with a long neck and head, at the foot of
                  >>> Cook Street. Google marks it as the Amtrak station. The other
                  >>> rectangular structure is the old Express building, I believe my son
                  >>> said.
                  >>>
                  I thought that was it - the shape is very distinct on the Google Maps
                  satellite view.
                  > It was one of the 19th century wooden ones. Could have been across
                  > the street, who knows. Unless someone told us where it was, we'd
                  > never figure it out, I don't think. I wonder if we'd see any sign of
                  > it, even if we knew!
                  >
                  I'll see if I can find any information locally.
                  >> Thanks for all of the good information so far.
                  >> Definitely we will go to Lamy and Las Vegas.
                  >>
                  >
                  > I should say I heard that the Las Vegas Harvey Girls did not live
                  > upstairs in the Castaneda. They actually lived across the street
                  > above one of the brick storefront buildings -- the Rawlins Building,
                  > according to the Las Vegas Citizens' Committee for Historic
                  > Preservation.
                  >
                  > Tour the Railroad Avenue Historic District (or another part of town):
                  >
                  > http://lasvegasnmcchp.com/tours.htm
                  >
                  > "Rawlins Building
                  > 515 Railroad Avenue; Built 1899
                  > Though in deteriorated condition, the Rawlins Building remains an
                  > outstanding architectural landmark. The building's pressed-metal
                  > front is one of less than a handful in New Mexico, and the recessed
                  > storefronts are intact. The upper story boasts a row of engaged Ionic
                  > columns and swage panels. The Harvey girls who staffed La Castaneda's
                  > dining room across the street lived here for many years during the
                  > early 20th century."
                  > http://lasvegasnmcchp.com/tours/railroad/1rawlins.htm
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, I didn't get any photos of that.
                  >
                  I'll try to help you with that. Thanks for another good idea!
                  > Maybe you can find out something about the status of the Castenada,
                  > which is rumored to be for sale for an exorbitant sum?
                  >
                  Will do.
                  > Las Vegas is a really nice-looking town, all the fancy old buildings.
                  > Wouldn't mind retiring there, judging from a brief look-see. Don't
                  > miss the old plaza, which is across the bridge to the west from the
                  > part of town that grew up after the railroad arrived.
                  >
                  > Hopefully you can also check out La Fonda in Santa Fe. We didn't have
                  > much time there to look around, just enough time to eat in the (now
                  > covered) patio. Nice little depot in Santa Fe, too.
                  >
                  We'll try to stop in Santa Fe. I didn't think about a depot there, as I
                  was thinking in terms of
                  AT&SF, which didn't go into town.

                  Again, thanks! I should have a good trip report and some photos to
                  share when we return.

                  BTW, I got a reservation at La Posada for two nights, in a room where we
                  can watch the trains.
                  > --Michael
                  >
                  Jim
                • Michael McMillan
                  ... I ve got a picture of the back side of the adobe Painted Desert Inn in the Photo Section. ... The Santa Fe depot is a Santa Fe (AT&SF) depot. Yes, the main
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 4, 2008
                    > Thanks for that tip! We'll be sure to check it out.

                    I've got a picture of the back side of the adobe Painted Desert Inn
                    in the Photo Section.

                    > We'll try to stop in Santa Fe. I didn't think about a depot there,
                    > as I was thinking in terms of AT&SF, which didn't go into town.

                    The Santa Fe depot is a Santa Fe (AT&SF) depot. Yes, the main line
                    bypassed Santa Fe, but the AT&SF built a spur line up there from
                    Lamy. The stucco depot is located at 410 S. Guadalupe Ave. Here is
                    the website of the Santa Fe Southern Railroad that runs from the
                    depot in Santa Fe down to Lamy:

                    http://www.sfsr.com/about.html

                    We parked at the depot and walked the couple blocks over to La Fonda
                    on the square. You need to see La Fonda, one of the very few great
                    surviving operational Harvey Houses, if you are going to be in the
                    area. That's all we did in Santa Fe: depot and La Fonda. I as sorry
                    we didn't have more time in the picturesque old town, with al teh
                    adobe architecture.

                    [By the way, I asked at the depot in Santa Fe how to
                    pronounce "Lamy," and they said "LAY-mee."]

                    Also, in case you didn't know, there is the Lamy Station Cafe, in an
                    old railroad car, right next to the Lamy AT&SF depot:

                    http://www.lamystationcafe.com/index.html

                    > BTW, I got a reservation at La Posada for two nights, in a room
                    > where we can watch the trains.

                    Great! Very neat place. We ate breakfast in the Turquoise Room
                    Rstaurant (old Harvey Lunch Room). The wiatresses were the closest to
                    Harvey Girls I've seen. Black skirts and white aprons.

                    I want to ride the train out to La Posada sometime.

                    --Michael
                  • Jim Lowman
                    This keeps getting better! Now we re thinking of flying both ways and spending more time in New Mexico. My wife pointed out that there is a major
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 5, 2008
                      This keeps getting better! Now we're thinking of flying both ways and
                      spending more time
                      in New Mexico. My wife pointed out that there is a major archaeological
                      site near Clovis,
                      as well as the Harvey House.

                      Michael McMillan wrote:
                      > I've got a picture of the back side of the adobe Painted Desert Inn
                      > in the Photo Section.
                      >
                      I checked it out. We'll definitely get a closer look.
                      >> We'll try to stop in Santa Fe. I didn't think about a depot there,
                      >> as I was thinking in terms of AT&SF, which didn't go into town.
                      >>
                      >
                      > The Santa Fe depot is a Santa Fe (AT&SF) depot. Yes, the main line
                      > bypassed Santa Fe, but the AT&SF built a spur line up there from
                      > Lamy. The stucco depot is located at 410 S. Guadalupe Ave. Here is
                      > the website of the Santa Fe Southern Railroad that runs from the
                      > depot in Santa Fe down to Lamy:
                      >
                      > http://www.sfsr.com/about.html
                      >
                      > We parked at the depot and walked the couple blocks over to La Fonda
                      > on the square. You need to see La Fonda, one of the very few great
                      > surviving operational Harvey Houses, if you are going to be in the
                      > area. That's all we did in Santa Fe: depot and La Fonda. I as sorry
                      > we didn't have more time in the picturesque old town, with al teh
                      > adobe architecture.
                      >
                      Add that to the list of things to do, including taking the excursion
                      train to Lamy.
                      > [By the way, I asked at the depot in Santa Fe how to
                      > pronounce "Lamy," and they said "LAY-mee."]
                      >
                      I wondered about that - didn't want to sound like a tourist. :-)
                      > Also, in case you didn't know, there is the Lamy Station Cafe, in an
                      > old railroad car, right next to the Lamy AT&SF depot:
                      >
                      > http://www.lamystationcafe.com/index.html
                      >
                      Yet something else to see!
                      >> BTW, I got a reservation at La Posada for two nights, in a room
                      >> where we can watch the trains.
                      >>
                      >
                      > Great! Very neat place. We ate breakfast in the Turquoise Room
                      > Rstaurant (old Harvey Lunch Room). The wiatresses were the closest to
                      > Harvey Girls I've seen. Black skirts and white aprons.
                      >
                      We'll have a few meals there, I'm sure.
                      > I want to ride the train out to La Posada sometime.
                      >
                      I'd be happy with taking it from San Bernardino to Barstow, but the
                      hours aren't the most
                      convenient.

                      By the way, we just kicked off the depot host program on Saturday, with
                      a ceremony involving
                      the mayor of San Bernardino and the councilman for the ward where the
                      depot is located. I'll
                      do my first stint on the evening of the 22nd.

                      http://www.pe.com/localnews/sbcounty/stories/PE_News_Local_R_bhosts05.4260cea.html
                      > --Michael
                      >
                      Jim
                    • Michael McMillan
                      We took a trip up to see the sites of these two Harvey Houses a couple weekends ago, plus seeing the River Valley Museum in Canadian. (They had pulled the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 10, 2008
                        We took a trip up to see the sites of these two Harvey Houses a
                        couple weekends ago, plus seeing the River Valley Museum in Canadian.
                        (They had pulled the Harvey House exhibit from storage for me to look
                        at.) Things have been hectic since then, and I haven't even
                        downloaded my photos.

                        Canadian:

                        There is a large concrete slab (or several adjoining slabs of
                        different ages) next to a huge lumber warehouse (on the depot site)
                        that apparently cover the old Harvey House site. Along the tracks, I
                        could see some edges of the old brick platform, both in the gravel of
                        the roadbed, and sticking out part-way from underneath the concrete
                        slab. From that, my guess is that none of the concrete is from the
                        Harvey House. Anything left would be buried under it.

                        Snyder:

                        This was actually more exciting, as the foundation outline of the
                        Harvey House is plainly visible along the concrete platform. You can
                        see where the News Stand (and stationmaster's office - or whatever
                        those were called) protruded from the main wall, for example.

                        Here's some pictures:
                        http://harvey.library.arizona.edu/finding_aid/9ok/20/welcome.html

                        The Snyder Harvey House, as most of them did, had a basement. It is
                        still there, all filled in with rubble of all sorts to prevent people
                        falling in it. There are even huge blocks of nice pink granite in the
                        pile. At one place, you can see the top of an underground doorway
                        going between two sections of the basement.

                        The Harvey House was located at the SE corner of the junction of the
                        E-W RR tracks and the N-S main drag -- 'E' Street [Hwy 183]. Here is
                        a more recent picture:

                        http://www.harveyhouses.net/states/oklahoma/okhouses.html

                        The news stand was where the car is parked. You can see that it
                        sticks out some and mote the awning on top.

                        Very small little town. Had some good conversations with three
                        friendly people. Most of them were there to watch the station be torn
                        down not too many years ago.

                        --Michael
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