Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [fred_harvey] Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

Expand Messages
  • Michael McMillan
    ...   Hi Evan,   The building that contained the Fort Worth Lunch and Dining Rooms is gone. The area is a small parking lot. It was a non-descript
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      > The Fort Worth Harvey Lunchroom is all but forgotten.
       
      Hi Evan,
       
      The building that contained the Fort Worth Lunch and Dining Rooms is gone. The area is a small parking lot. It was a non-descript building wedged between the elegant passenger depot and the freight depot.
       
      See it here:
      [Passenger depot and news stand to the immediate left, freight depot right background.]
       
      Both the other [nicer!] buildings still exist. The passenger depot [unfortunately] is like a private reception center for weddings, etc., and Amtrak stops further to the north at the "Intermodal Transportation Center." Hard to get in to old depot, but I have been in. The news stand area is like the bar now. The news stand was in the NE corner by the platform and Lunch Room.
       
      You can "drive by" and see where the Harvey House was on Jones Street, using Google Maps. Do the search at http://maps.google.com/ using "1514 Jones Street, Fort Worth, Texas" You can see the news stand area in the back corner by the tracks. Don't miss the great "Santa Fe" neon sign atop the freight building.
       
      > Clovis is one of those that if I am not mistaken, still serves as a BNSF Railway office of some sort.
       
      The Harvey House "Gran Quivira" is all boarded up and forlorn, overgrown with ivy.It doesn'tappear to be actively used for anything, except maybe storage. Just to the east is a large vintage Santa Fe building [Reading  Room?] that the BNSF uses for offices. Just to the west is the depot, which is Clovis Depot Model Train Museum. At Google maps, you can see these to the south near this address: "191 West 1st Street, Clovis, New Mexico." Go west on 1st St to see the depot. Good satellite image of these three buildings. Better views are on my web page, actually.
       
      Clovis also has a large old "Santa Fe" neon sign like Fort Worth at the foot of Main Street [to the east], visible on Google Maps. The Santa Fe Hospital also still exists in Clovis. It is now a Christian School. If you want to see that, search "801 Hinkle Street, Clovis, New Mexico" on Google Maps and look west.
       
      > Stephen Fried's Appetite for America, Atchison, KS is "Harvey Central." This is where it all began.  It includes Harvey's former residence as a museum.
       
      Actually, that's Leavenworth, KS where his residence is. Dial in "601 Olive Street, Leavenworth, Kansas" to see it. Google even has it labeled "National Fred Harvey Museum"! Last I knew, the museum was in the building to the rear [carriage house, or something], not in the mansion itself, because it hadn't been restored, yet.
       
      > We come up with some grand research in this forum.
      Yes, I appreciate everyone sharing what they find.
       
      >I think we need to start some kind of annual Historical convention like the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society.
       
      It would be nice to meet other Fred Harvey enthusiasts. The Leavenworth Museum was having annual Harvey Dinners to raise money, but I haven't heard anything about those lately.
       
      --Michael
       

      From: "sfrr@..." <sfrr@...>
      To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 8:12 AM
      Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

       
      I tried using FireFox and it did not work.  Then I tried Internet Explorer and it did. However; it might be that one is linked to a different version of Adobe Reader.

      In just skimming the Table of Contents it looks like this thesis is centered roughly upon the remaining "Grand" Harvey Houses.  These are the Harvey Houses that evoke the most emotional response as the centerpiece of Harvey's hotel and restaurant empire.  However; the vast array of the Harvey empire, as I am growing to understand, served as a foundation for the whole. 

      I performed a keyword search on the document for "Waynoka," "Dodge City," "Guthrie," "Clovis," "Fort Worth," "Brownwood," and "Atchison." All of these include locations where the Harvey company had some presence.  Waynoka, Dodge City, and Brownwood are of course is a fine examples of successful preservation efforts.  Guthrie, Oklahoma represents a Harvey location that actually includes a restaurant with four Harvey Girl rooms waiting to be restored.  The Fort Worth Harvey Lunchroom is all but forgotten.  Clovis is one of those that if I am not mistaken, still serves as a BNSF Railway office of some sort. 

      Most notably, and as referenced through Stephen Fried's Appetite for America, Atchison, KS is "Harvey Central." This is where it all began.  It includes Harvey's former residence as a museum.  I have not been there but it is odd this was just about totally missing from the thesis.

      I highly appreciate any Harvey research and I will read more of this thesis.  As with any time-limited thesis it appears there is need for a followup.  It has me wondering, is there a "Harvey Historical Society?"  Just how much research has been done to catalog the Harvey empire?  We come up with some grand research in this forum.

      I think we need to start some kind of annual Historical convention like the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society.  There are places to stay and meet.  We can share our research and become an information clearing house for future authors.

      Comments?
      Evan Stair        


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sunsetexpress <denmeg_hogan@...>
      To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:25 pm
      Subject: [fred_harvey] Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

       
      There is a paper on Harvey House preservation submitted in 2010 by Patrick W. Kidd for his masters degree in historic preservation at the University of Pennsylvania (Scholarly Commons).
      Having difficulty getting a link to copy!
      Will try this:
      Branding the Southwest: A Preservation Plan for the Fred Harvey Houses

      http://repository.upenn.edu/hp_theses/144/

      >>>



    • E&R Miller
      I have a friend who lives in Clovis and here is what he has to say about Gran Quivira. At least it s a lot cheaper asking price than what the lady who owns the
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        I have a friend who lives in Clovis and here is what he has to say about Gran Quivira. At least it's a lot cheaper asking price than what the lady who owns the Castaneda in Las Vegas is wanting for it. The last I heard, she was up around 3 or 4 million (maybe more) for the Castaneda.

        Eric


        The old Harvey House (Gran Quivera)  is abandoned and has been for sale since the '90's. In 1997 the price was around 90k. The front area of the building was occupied by the Signal Dept  in the '70's and '80's. Phil Williams occupies and owns the station and probably would like to sell it, taking a couple of layouts home. The office building east of the Harvey House is the Division HQ.
         
        Williams has spearheaded an effort that hasn't gotten a lot of enthusiasm and no money on making the area around the station etc a sort of Railroad Main St. There is a large homeless and drug/alcohol rehab shelter (Lighthouse Mission) down the street and a junky abandoned building in back of the Harvey House and the whole area is pretty seedy. With the economy nothing is going to get done. An old Santa Fe steam locomotive at Hillcrest Park is supposed to be moved in back of the station where a short track has been built but it hasn't been moved as yet although it was scheduled to be moved last month. Williams has a model railroad club that meets in the station and the members are supposed to paint it and do some cosmetic restoration. It is a rust bucket and full of friable asbestos. It will still be owned by the City so I doubt that the safety guy will allow the fans to mess with it.
      • sfrr@aol.com
        So how many rooms did the Gran Quivira have? Probably more than the El Ortiz in Lamy but less than the Casteneda? I have heard that the lady in Las Vegas has
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          So how many rooms did the Gran Quivira have? Probably more than the El Ortiz in Lamy but less than the Casteneda?

          I have heard that the lady in Las Vegas has brought her price down to about $1 million. That came from the city staff in the depot.  The trouble is that once you spend the million you will spend millions more in restoration efforts. How long has the Casteneda been closed? 80 years? It is incredible to me it is still standing. I hope against hope that when and if the economy improves it will be restored.

          Evan



          -----Original Message-----
          From: E&R Miller <dosokies@...>
          To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 6:41 am
          Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

           
          I have a friend who lives in Clovis and here is what he has to say about Gran Quivira. At least it's a lot cheaper asking price than what the lady who owns the Castaneda in Las Vegas is wanting for it. The last I heard, she was up around 3 or 4 million (maybe more) for the Castaneda.

          Eric


          The old Harvey House (Gran Quivera)  is abandoned and has been for sale since the '90's. In 1997 the price was around 90k. The front area of the building was occupied by the Signal Dept  in the '70's and '80's. Phil Williams occupies and owns the station and probably would like to sell it, taking a couple of layouts home. The office building east of the Harvey House is the Division HQ.
           
          Williams has spearheaded an effort that hasn't gotten a lot of enthusiasm and no money on making the area around the station etc a sort of Railroad Main St. There is a large homeless and drug/alcohol rehab shelter (Lighthouse Mission) down the street and a junky abandoned building in back of the Harvey House and the whole area is pretty seedy. With the economy nothing is going to get done. An old Santa Fe steam locomotive at Hillcrest Park is supposed to be moved in back of the station where a short track has been built but it hasn't been moved as yet although it was scheduled to be moved last month. Williams has a model railroad club that meets in the station and the members are supposed to paint it and do some cosmetic restoration. It is a rust bucket and full of friable asbestos. It will still be owned by the City so I doubt that the safety guy will allow the fans to mess with it.
        • Michael McMillan
          The Gran Quivira had some wings added on in the back at some point, and it wasn t very imaginitively done. It is huge, like the Castaneda, but unlike that
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            The Gran Quivira had some wings added on in the back at some point, and it wasn't very imaginitively done. It is huge, like the Castaneda, but unlike that one, it is rather blah to look at, except the original front section. Like Eric's friend says below, there are some junky structures behind it along the street. Even without those, the Gran Quivera doesn't have any impressive street-side presence, like the Castaneda does. Good to hear that it is/was available for sale, at least, and at a decent price, apparently. Wonder how original the inside looks, and what sort of shape that is in.
             
            Archive pictures:
             
            --Michael

            From: "sfrr@..." <sfrr@...>
            To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 6:56 AM
            Subject: [fred_harvey] Gran Quivira. was: Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

             
            So how many rooms did the Gran Quivira have? Probably more than the El Ortiz in Lamy but less than the Casteneda?

            I have heard that the lady in Las Vegas has brought her price down to about $1 million. That came from the city staff in the depot.  The trouble is that once you spend the million you will spend millions more in restoration efforts. How long has the Casteneda been closed? 80 years? It is incredible to me it is still standing. I hope against hope that when and if the economy improves it will be restored.

            Evan



            -----Original Message-----
            From: E&R Miller <dosokies@...>
            To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 6:41 am
            Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

             
            I have a friend who lives in Clovis and here is what he has to say about Gran Quivira. At least it's a lot cheaper asking price than what the lady who owns the Castaneda in Las Vegas is wanting for it. The last I heard, she was up around 3 or 4 million (maybe more) for the Castaneda.

            Eric


            The old Harvey House (Gran Quivera)  is abandoned and has been for sale since the '90's. In 1997 the price was around 90k. The front area of the building was occupied by the Signal Dept  in the '70's and '80's. Phil Williams occupies and owns the station and probably would like to sell it, taking a couple of layouts home. The office building east of the Harvey House is the Division HQ.
             
            Williams has spearheaded an effort that hasn't gotten a lot of enthusiasm and no money on making the area around the station etc a sort of Railroad Main St. There is a large homeless and drug/alcohol rehab shelter (Lighthouse Mission) down the street and a junky abandoned building in back of the Harvey House and the whole area is pretty seedy. With the economy nothing is going to get done. An old Santa Fe steam locomotive at Hillcrest Park is supposed to be moved in back of the station where a short track has been built but it hasn't been moved as yet although it was scheduled to be moved last month. Williams has a model railroad club that meets in the station and the members are supposed to paint it and do some cosmetic restoration. It is a rust bucket and full of friable asbestos. It will still be owned by the City so I doubt that the safety guy will allow the fans to mess with it.


          • E&R Miller
            Evan, Don t know how many rooms the Gran Quivira has. As for buying the Castaneda, one would have to spend millions to rewire and replumb, not to mention other
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Evan,

              Don't know how many rooms the Gran Quivira has. As for buying the Castaneda, one would have to spend millions to rewire and replumb, not to mention other outlays. I think I mentioned this before, but there was an actress who was looking to do just that in the mid 90's but decided not to because of the costs. As for use, if I remember correctly, Jack Kelley said it was still being used by crews into the early/mid 70's, so we are talking 40 years, plus or minus. I believe it stopped being a Harvey establishment in the late 30's, maybe? I believe most of the furniture, etc.,  was auctioned off long ago, maybe before the current owner bought it, which was in the 80's, I believe. Or maybe not long after. I understand there some of the original furniture in the room(s) she lives in when she is there.  It is a grand building and like you, I would love to see something done, but I have my doubts that anything constructive will ever come about for the Castaneda.

              Here is another bit of info from my friend in Clovis on Gran Quivira:

              BNSF owns it as far as I know. It is on railroad property and there is no fence between the tracks and the building which is the case with the old station. There was some talk about the city or some organization buying it and  making an art museum out of it but that never came to pass. I'm sure that it is loaded with asbestos and after 20 years of abandonment it will need a bit of refurbishment. My wife has been in it as a realtor. I haven't. There used to be a small commissary in the basement. From what I understand there is nothing left down there now certainly nothing Santa Fe. Phil Williams has toured the building. He was thinking of buying it but Santa Fe wanted 90k and he had just bought the station. I don't know whether of not the Harvey House has been designated a historic property.


              Eric



            • sfrr@aol.com
              While I have never been to Rome I trust that they understand preservation better than we do in the United States. The Harvey Houses to me represent the first
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 4, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                While I have never been to Rome I trust that they understand preservation better than we do in the United States.  The Harvey Houses to me represent the first structures built in many parts of the United States.  We are so careless with our history in this nation today, not understanding that it might be important to our great-great-great-great... grandchildren. We tear down buildings because the "cost too much to preserve."  It is tragic.

                Evan



                -----Original Message-----
                From: E&R Miller <dosokies@...>
                To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 6:41 am
                Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Masters thesis on Fred Harvey House preservation

                 
                I have a friend who lives in Clovis and here is what he has to say about Gran Quivira. At least it's a lot cheaper asking price than what the lady who owns the Castaneda in Las Vegas is wanting for it. The last I heard, she was up around 3 or 4 million (maybe more) for the Castaneda.

                Eric


                The old Harvey House (Gran Quivera)  is abandoned and has been for sale since the '90's. In 1997 the price was around 90k. The front area of the building was occupied by the Signal Dept  in the '70's and '80's. Phil Williams occupies and owns the station and probably would like to sell it, taking a couple of layouts home. The office building east of the Harvey House is the Division HQ.
                 
                Williams has spearheaded an effort that hasn't gotten a lot of enthusiasm and no money on making the area around the station etc a sort of Railroad Main St. There is a large homeless and drug/alcohol rehab shelter (Lighthouse Mission) down the street and a junky abandoned building in back of the Harvey House and the whole area is pretty seedy. With the economy nothing is going to get done. An old Santa Fe steam locomotive at Hillcrest Park is supposed to be moved in back of the station where a short track has been built but it hasn't been moved as yet although it was scheduled to be moved last month. Williams has a model railroad club that meets in the station and the members are supposed to paint it and do some cosmetic restoration. It is a rust bucket and full of friable asbestos. It will still be owned by the City so I doubt that the safety guy will allow the fans to mess with it.
              • Michael McMillan
                ...   Eric--   Good to hear some local reporting on the Gran Quivira, thanks.   --Michael ~~~~   BNSF owns it as far as I know. It is on railroad property
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 4, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Here is another bit of info from my friend in Clovis on Gran Quivira:
                   
                  Eric--
                   
                  Good to hear some local reporting on the Gran Quivira, thanks.
                   
                  --Michael

                  ~~~~
                   
                  BNSF owns it as far as I know. It is on railroad property and there is no fence between the tracks and the building which is the case with the old station. There was some talk about the city or some organization buying it and  making an art museum out of it but that never came to pass. I'm sure that it is loaded with asbestos and after 20 years of abandonment it will need a bit of refurbishment. My wife has been in it as a realtor. I haven't. There used to be a small commissary in the basement. From what I understand there is nothing left down there now certainly nothing Santa Fe. Phil Williams has toured the building. He was thinking of buying it but Santa Fe wanted 90k and he had just bought the station. I don't know whether of not the Harvey House has been designated a historic property.


                  Eric





                • E&R Miller
                  I m posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 17, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.

                    Eric


                    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg

                    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                  • Tony
                    Can t be sure (since you can only see the tops of the letters) but it almost looks like one of the words next to Palace Saloon in large letters is possibly
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 17, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Can't be sure (since you can only see the tops of the letters) but it almost looks like one of the words next to Palace Saloon in large letters is possibly Williams. Or something else that ends ams. Hopefully someone can id it.

                      Tony


                      --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                      >
                      > Eric
                      >
                      >
                      > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                      >
                      > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                      >
                    • E&R Miller
                      Here is maybe a better closeup of the signs, etc. Eric http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/fhgirls_1.jpg
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 17, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Here is maybe a better closeup of the signs, etc.

                        Eric



                         


                        I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.

                        Eric

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg


                      • E&R Miller
                        Yes, I noticed that too, but I didn t want to jump to any conclusions, yet, LOL! Thanks! Eric
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 18, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes, I noticed that too, but I didn't want to jump to any conclusions, yet, LOL!

                          Thanks!

                          Eric

                          On Aug 17, 2011, at 6:30 PM, Tony wrote:

                           

                          Can't be sure (since you can only see the tops of the letters) but it almost looks like one of the words next to Palace Saloon in large letters is possibly Williams. Or something else that ends ams. Hopefully someone can id it.

                          Tony

                          --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                          >
                          > Eric
                          >
                          >
                          > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                          >
                          > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                          >


                        • purpleclown2001
                          Eric: Is the back of the postcard printed? I imagine you are aware that you can date some early postcards by the style of the printing on the back? (See
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 18, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Eric:
                            Is the back of the postcard printed? I imagine you are aware that you can date some early postcards by the style of the printing on the back? (See Prairie Fires and Paper Moons; the American Photographic Postcard: 1900-1920 by Hal Morgan and Andreas Brown).
                            Paula

                            --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                            >
                            > Eric
                            >
                            >
                            > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                            >
                            > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                            >
                          • E&R Miller
                            Yes, my bad, I meant to mention that. The card is unmailed. The maker is CYKO and their cards date from 1904 to 1920. Judging from the clothes on some of the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 18, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yes, my bad, I meant to mention that. The card is unmailed. The maker is CYKO and their cards date from 1904 to 1920. Judging from the clothes on some of the people in the background, I'd guess the card is from  around 1910, certainly not much later.  www.the2buds.com/ro.htm is what I use for age reference on real photo postcards..

                              Eric

                              On Aug 18, 2011, at 10:00 AM, purpleclown2001 wrote:

                               

                              Eric:
                              Is the back of the postcard printed? I imagine you are aware that you can date some early postcards by the style of the printing on the back? (See Prairie Fires and Paper Moons; the American Photographic Postcard: 1900-1920 by Hal Morgan and Andreas Brown).
                              Paula

                              --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                              >
                              > Eric
                              >
                              >
                              > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                              >
                              > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                              >


                            • Michael McMillan
                              Since it says temporary lunch room, it possibly could be after one of the real ones burned down. Gallup, Needles, or somewhere. Why else a need for a
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 18, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Since it says "temporary" lunch room, it possibly could be after one of the "real" ones burned down. Gallup, Needles, or somewhere. Why else a need for a temporary one?
                                 
                                Great card!
                                 
                                --Michael
                                 
                                From: E&R Miller <dosokies@...>
                                To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:31 PM
                                Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Early Real Photo Postcard-Harvey Girls

                                 
                                Here is maybe a better closeup of the signs, etc.

                                Eric



                                 

                                I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.

                                Eric

                                http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg

                                http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg



                              • Michael McMillan
                                On this Saloon Token site, http://www.saloontokens.info/ I scrolled through hundreds of saloons and found Palace Saloons mentioned in the following potential
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 18, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On this Saloon Token site,
                                  I scrolled through hundreds of saloons and found "Palace Saloons" mentioned in the following potential towns:
                                   
                                  Albuquerque
                                  El Paso [Crystal Palace Saloon]
                                  Holbrook
                                  Pueblo
                                  San Marcial
                                   
                                  --Michael

                                  From: E&R Miller <dosokies@...>
                                  To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:47 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Re: Early Real Photo Postcard-Harvey Girls

                                   
                                  Yes, my bad, I meant to mention that. The card is unmailed. The maker is CYKO and their cards date from 1904 to 1920. Judging from the clothes on some of the people in the background, I'd guess the card is from  around 1910, certainly not much later.  www.the2buds.com/ro.htm is what I use for age reference on real photo postcards..

                                  Eric

                                  On Aug 18, 2011, at 10:00 AM, purpleclown2001 wrote:

                                   
                                  Eric:
                                  Is the back of the postcard printed? I imagine you are aware that you can date some early postcards by the style of the printing on the back? (See Prairie Fires and Paper Moons; the American Photographic Postcard: 1900-1920 by Hal Morgan and Andreas Brown).
                                  Paula

                                  --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                                  >
                                  > Eric
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                                  >
                                  > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                                  >




                                • E&R Miller
                                  Palace Saloon was a fairly common for a saloon name back in that day. The SF logo looks to be on a board thats been fixed/nailed onto the frame/facade of the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 18, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Palace Saloon was a fairly common for a saloon name back in that day. The SF logo looks to be on a board thats been fixed/nailed onto the frame/facade of the building.  Kind of different that the temp Harvey House was next to a saloon,  wouldn't you think? I wish there was more to go on. 

                                    Eric


                                    On Aug 18, 2011, at 7:16 PM, Michael McMillan wrote:

                                     

                                    On this Saloon Token site,
                                    I scrolled through hundreds of saloons and found "Palace Saloons" mentioned in the following potential towns:
                                     
                                    Albuquerque
                                    El Paso [Crystal Palace Saloon]
                                    Holbrook
                                    Pueblo
                                    San Marcial
                                     
                                    --Michael

                                    From: E&R Miller <dosokies@...>
                                    To: fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:47 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [fred_harvey] Re: Early Real Photo Postcard-Harvey Girls

                                     
                                    Yes, my bad, I meant to mention that. The card is unmailed. The maker is CYKO and their cards date from 1904 to 1920. Judging from the clothes on some of the people in the background, I'd guess the card is from  around 1910, certainly not much later.  www.the2buds.com/ro.htm is what I use for age reference on real photo postcards..

                                    Eric

                                    On Aug 18, 2011, at 10:00 AM, purpleclown2001 wrote:

                                     
                                    Eric:
                                    Is the back of the postcard printed? I imagine you are aware that you can date some early postcards by the style of the printing on the back? (See Prairie Fires and Paper Moons; the American Photographic Postcard: 1900-1920 by Hal Morgan and Andreas Brown).
                                    Paula

                                    --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                                    >
                                    > Eric
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                                    >
                                    > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                                    >






                                  • purpleclown2001
                                    Eric: I can t for the life of me figure out how to attach a photo! I have a Harvey Girl photo from ElTovar I know was taken in 1905 that shows my grandmother
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 19, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Eric:
                                      I can't for the life of me figure out how to attach a photo! I have a Harvey Girl photo from ElTovar I know was taken in 1905 that shows my grandmother and her friend - with two different uniform tops. I can attach it to a regular email, so email me at lester@... and I'll send it your way. Grandma might not have been a waitress as she was a recent immigrant from Poland; she met my grandfather who worked ElTovar in the kitchen; he later joined Dining Car service and was Chef on the Super Chief Chicago to LA for many years.
                                      Paula

                                      --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yes, my bad, I meant to mention that. The card is unmailed. The maker is CYKO and their cards date from 1904 to 1920. Judging from the clothes on some of the people in the background, I'd guess the card is from around 1910, certainly not much later. www.the2buds.com/ro.htm is what I use for age reference on real photo postcards..
                                      >
                                      > Eric
                                      >
                                      > On Aug 18, 2011, at 10:00 AM, purpleclown2001 wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Eric:
                                      > > Is the back of the postcard printed? I imagine you are aware that you can date some early postcards by the style of the printing on the back? (See Prairie Fires and Paper Moons; the American Photographic Postcard: 1900-1920 by Hal Morgan and Andreas Brown).
                                      > > Paula
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In fred_harvey@yahoogroups.com, E&R Miller <dosokies@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I'm posting some links to a real photo postcard I have and wonder if anybody has any idea where it might have been taken. Not much to go on, tho. You can make out PALACE SALOON on the sign to the left of the Harvey Girls. There is a Santa Fe logo to be seen in the upper center edge of the photo. I don't know if it can be id'd, but it would be neat to know where it was taken.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Eric
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_1.jpg
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/sooner/harvey_girls_2.jpg
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.