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Re: [lb/2005] LB/2005 HackFests Draft Proposal

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  • Atul Chitnis
    ... BG - that is called terminology hijacking , and that s how crackers became known as hackers. What you are describing are workshops/tutorials, not
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 25, 2005
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      On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, B. Ghose wrote:

      > I understand that Gopal. But newbies are not like
      > that. They have some vague idea in their minds but
      > don't really know how to start. We intend to show them
      > the way.

      BG - that is called "terminology hijacking", and that's how crackers
      became known as hackers.

      What you are describing are workshops/tutorials, not hackfests. I
      understand that some groups/organisations call such things hackfests, but
      I also know quite a few *real* hackers who are most upset with this kind
      of convenient hijacking for the sake of giving a cool name to an activity.

      Maybe you should rework your proposal to target a workshop or tutorial,
      with more focus.

      Also, the whole "write access to the wiki" is vastly overblown in
      importance.

      I intentionally want only very few people on the list of users with write
      access, so that people aren't trampling over each other's toes.

      To keep things simple, I like working with people whom I have worked with
      before and whose capabilities I know about (typically from earlier events
      or the mailing lists). For now, I do not want multiple people handling the
      same sections - that way the responsibility (and the potential crushed
      ribcage) rests with a single person. :)

      Atul
    • Bernhard Krieger
      Atul, ... Agreed. I think it is good to use the correct terms if they do exist. This is not word police. ... Not sure whether this is technically possible. But
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 25, 2005
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        Atul,

        Atul Chitnis wrote:

        >On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, B. Ghose wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >>I understand that Gopal. But newbies are not like
        >>that. They have some vague idea in their minds but
        >>don't really know how to start. We intend to show them
        >>the way.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >BG - that is called "terminology hijacking", and that's how crackers
        >became known as hackers.
        >
        >
        Agreed. I think it is good to use the correct terms if they do exist.
        This is not word police.

        >Also, the whole "write access to the wiki" is vastly overblown in
        >importance.
        >
        >I intentionally want only very few people on the list of users with write
        >access, so that people aren't trampling over each other's toes.
        >
        >To keep things simple, I like working with people whom I have worked with
        >before and whose capabilities I know about (typically from earlier events
        >or the mailing lists). For now, I do not want multiple people handling the
        >same sections - that way the responsibility (and the potential crushed
        >ribcage) rests with a single person. :)
        >
        >
        Not sure whether this is technically possible. But is there a way to
        give write access to *some* (maybe temporary) parts of the wiki maybe
        with one person (maybe the creator of the original sub-theme) holding
        the right to go back in versions? It would also save time for those
        people who than later would just have to copy/paste into the longer
        lasting part of the website.

        B.
      • Gopal V
        ... What is your poison then ?. 60 hz AC to your brain directly ?. Gopal ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 25, 2005
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          > > Did someone forget the caffeine?
          >
          > optional, mostly unnecessary for me at least.

          What is your poison then ?. 60 hz AC to your brain
          directly ?.

          Gopal



          ____________________________________________________
          Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        • Devdas Bhagat
          ... FWIW, I think these definitions are reasonable: Workshop -- Hands on multi day session. Generally 1 or 2 speakers. Needs equipment, and can allow very few
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 25, 2005
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            On 25/07/05 19:08 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
            > On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, B. Ghose wrote:
            >
            > > I understand that Gopal. But newbies are not like
            > > that. They have some vague idea in their minds but
            > > don't really know how to start. We intend to show them
            > > the way.
            >
            > BG - that is called "terminology hijacking", and that's how crackers
            > became known as hackers.
            >
            > What you are describing are workshops/tutorials, not hackfests. I

            FWIW, I think these definitions are reasonable:
            Workshop -- Hands on multi day session. Generally 1 or 2 speakers.
            Needs equipment, and can allow very few participants.
            Tutorial -- Multi day track on a single topic. May have > 2 speakers.
            Theory only. Allows for more participants, but a certain
            amount of interactivity is desirable.
            Talk -- 45 to 90 minute session on a topic by a single speaker. Low
            interactivity.
            Hackfest -- A group of hackers getting together to write code. The
            main purpose of a hackfest is to get a ton of (good)
            code out there. The secondary purpose is to have fun
            coding.
            BoF -- Birds of a Feather session. May be previously scheduled or
            impromptu. No fixed speakers/audience. Everyone can
            contribute equally. In theory, this promotes free and
            frank exchange of ideas and general enlightenment.

            Devdas Bhagat
          • Shreyas Srinivasan
            ... *phew... My one evening of drunkeness seems to have left me with a lot of catching up to be done on this thread !. So i am quoting points from various
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 25, 2005
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              On 7/26/05, Devdas Bhagat <dvb@...> wrote:
              > On 25/07/05 19:08 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
              > > On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, B. Ghose wrote:
              > >
              > > > I understand that Gopal. But newbies are not like
              > > > that. They have some vague idea in their minds but
              > > > don't really know how to start. We intend to show them
              > > > the way.
              > >

              *phew... My one evening of drunkeness seems to have left me with a lot
              of catching up to be done on this thread !. So i am quoting points
              from various mails and addressing them in one mail rather than
              spawning of multiple difficult to read mails. I hope the admin
              understands... I am not even quoting names under the assumption that
              all of you know what u wrote.

              > The problem is not projects, the problem is
              > participants. You fail to see the point of
              > a hack fest. The idea is to find people
              > who already work on the stuff and collaborate -
              > not really to learn about a new project in day
              > and do some lines of code for it.

              The concept does not degenerate to be a tutorial. It was never
              intended to be that way. All we said was that its not limited to
              experinced code tao's and by that i mean a new-bee will have an
              oppurtunity to do something ! All the developer needs ( howto's )
              will be available on computer and even publused before the actual
              hackfest. There will be no "formal" tutoring. There will be an
              informal talk on "what do u want to hack" and thats it. After that its
              the man and his machine.. he can bribe one of the seasoned hackers to
              help him out for some free beer but that would be taken up on a per
              case basis.

              >All of these seem to be desktop applications. Many people, me included,
              >are only mildly interested in the desktop, and more interested in
              >command line tools that can be leveraged for use on the desktop

              I already acknowledged on the IRC that the topics were the "topic
              writers" preference. You make a very valid point. I think there should
              be such tracks too please do send details on what kind of specfic
              things you would like to be a part of the hackfest. I personally dont
              know the difference between php and python so bare with the fool !

              > - I want whatever you are smoking :)
              heh, i am trying to figure that one too

              >BG - that is called "terminology hijacking", and that's how crackers
              >became known as hackers.
              I refuse to be attacked by the "word police".
              1) It is not a "tutorial"
              2) Me or Ghose wont share our "two cents" worth knowledge in any way
              which would signify we are trying to "teach". Its not our intention.

              The intention of the hack fest is to not just "contribute". For cryin
              out loud we cant contribute any great shakes in one day. The intention
              was to
              1) Get people interested in hacking/ contributing ( they are not
              tutored or brainwashed)
              2) To establish comraderie between hackers. This is one of the corner
              stores of every community. People who know each other and enjoy each
              others company.
              3) To let people have some fun. This is where hacking contests will
              come into foray. Impromptu competitions like "first person to fix this
              bug in an hour" gets a prize kinds. I mean the idea can be tinkered
              with but u get the drift.

              I hope that helped.

              Cheers,
              Shreyas
            • Arun Raghavan
              ... This was discussed on IRC last night. The general consensus was that the logistics of providing machines that many machines (the numbers worked out to
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 26, 2005
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                > the man and his machine.. he can bribe one of the seasoned hackers to
                > help him out for some free beer but that would be taken up on a per
                > case basis.

                This was discussed on IRC last night. The general consensus was that
                the logistics of providing machines that many machines (the numbers
                worked out to multiple-hundreds, plus sufficient spares for failures)
                is infeasible.
                --
                Arun Raghavan
                (http://nemesis.accosted.net)
                v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
                e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
              • Andrew Cowie
                ... Reasonable they may be, but as Atul points out, if they differ from general usage elsewhere, they loose their usefulness as terms. I don t pretend to be an
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 26, 2005
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                  On Tue, 2005-26-07 at 02:31 +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
                  > FWIW, I think these definitions are reasonable:

                  Reasonable they may be, but as Atul points out, if they differ from
                  general usage elsewhere, they loose their usefulness as terms. I don't
                  pretend to be an expert, but I get around a bit, and so I thought I
                  would make a few observations, FWIW.

                  > Tutorial -- Multi day track on a single topic. May have > 2 speakers.
                  > Theory only. Allows for more participants, but a certain
                  > amount of interactivity is desirable.

                  At other technical conferences you'd probably find the term "tutorial"
                  meaning a 1/2 day or full day session, one presenter, limited (30-150)
                  audience. These sorts of tutorial cost many $$ extra (usually a portion
                  of the fee goes to the presenter who is ideally a renowned specialist in
                  that area). This pattern is very common at USENIX conferences, the
                  various O'Reilly conferences, Systems Administration conferences, etc,
                  where the term "training" may also be used (because sending someone to a
                  conference to get "training" makes business sense for an employer)

                  linux.conf.au does a day of tutorials, but I've always found the term
                  "tutorial" a bit misplaced - for although it's 1/2 day or full day
                  session, one presenter and in one lecture theatre, it tends to be more
                  "one person giving a really detailed and involved HOWTO presentation",
                  to an audience of whomever shows up, and for no additional charge.

                  LinuxTag doesn't do tutorials per se.

                  > Workshop -- Hands on multi day session. Generally 1 or 2 speakers.
                  > Needs equipment, and can allow very few participants.

                  I would suspect that in common with tutorial above, a workshop would
                  feature a specialist instructor. I've seen the term "workshop" used for
                  everything from 12 people in a room with a bunch of networked PCs
                  learning how to do something hands-on, up to a larger forum (with no
                  computers at all) assembled to tackle some problem posed to the group by
                  a moderator.

                  For that matter, in the academic world, Workshop is sometimes the term
                  used to describe an entire conference or colloquium.

                  If you were to use "workshop" to describe a multi-day event on a
                  specific topic I think that would make good sense.

                  Incidentally, a few years back linux.conf.au pioneered a notion called
                  "mini-confs". These are two-day events that take place on the Monday &
                  Tuesday of a Wednesday to Friday conference. For instance, the GNOME
                  crowd had "GNOME.conf.au". Debian has had a "Debian mini-conf". There
                  was an "Education mini-conf", "IPv6 mini-conf" and others. Note that
                  these were somewhat informally organized sub-events, not tracks in the
                  main conference (which had its formal CFP process, etc).

                  The only real trouble is that in many cases there is significant overlap
                  in the people involved (ie leaders in the Linux in Education space might
                  also happen to be Debian contributors) and so there is the difficult
                  choice of "which mini-conf's sessions to attend".

                  Personally, I think that given the diversity of topics and tracks you've
                  already been discussing for LB/05, you don't need this notion of
                  mini-confs. But I thought I'd mention it.


                  > Talk -- 45 to 90 minute session on a topic by a single speaker. Low
                  > interactivity.

                  Yup.

                  > Hackfest -- A group of hackers getting together to write code. The
                  > main purpose of a hackfest is to get a ton of (good)
                  > code out there. The secondary purpose is to have fun
                  > coding.

                  You've got the primary and secondary purposes backwards :) but yes.

                  > BoF -- Birds of a Feather session. May be previously scheduled or
                  > impromptu. No fixed speakers/audience. Everyone can
                  > contribute equally. In theory, this promotes free and
                  > frank exchange of ideas and general enlightenment.

                  And in practice results in little being done.

                  Two common problems: 1) the people who ought to be involved in a topic
                  don't know about the BoF, so don't show up, and 2) BoFs are scheduled
                  either competing with popular sessions, or are in the evening (when
                  everyone is starving and off looking for food), or...

                  AfC
                  Sydney

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                • Kenneth Gonsalves
                  ... yes - all the bofs ive seen have been a total waste of time - meetings in canteens, bars, restaurants achieve much the same purpose without ill feeling and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 26, 2005
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                    On Wednesday 27 Jul 2005 7:52 am, Andrew Cowie wrote:
                    > > BoF    -- Birds of a Feather session. May be previously scheduled
                    > > or impromptu. No fixed speakers/audience. Everyone can contribute
                    > > equally. In theory, this promotes free and frank exchange of
                    > > ideas and general enlightenment.
                    >
                    > And in practice results in little being done.

                    yes - all the bofs ive seen have been a total waste of time - meetings
                    in canteens, bars, restaurants achieve much the same purpose without
                    ill feeling and a lot more fun - if the venue had a lot of these
                    small areas for meeting, the purpose would be solved

                    --
                    regards
                    kg

                    http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
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