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Re: [lb/2005] The next 7 days...

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  • Atul Chitnis
    ... Bingo. That is a very good point. ... Actually something much more aggressive is in the pipeline. Stay tuned :) -- Atul Chitnis http://atulchitnis.com
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
      Sreekanth Iyer wrote:
      > I think one of the major focus should be on how india(bangalore) can
      > contribute to FLOSS.

      Bingo. That is a very good point.

      > Also make sense to list down the agenda for next one year after the
      > event !!

      Actually something much more aggressive is in the pipeline. Stay tuned :)

      --
      Atul Chitnis
      http://atulchitnis.com (Professional)
      http://atulchitnis.net (Personal)
    • Atul Chitnis
      ... Could you define smaller halls ? Many people think of this to mean 250 seaters. But I think you have a much smaller number in mind, and that interests me,
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
        Devdas Bhagat wrote:

        > I would personally prefer smaller, more focussed audiences. Lots of
        > smaller halls (8 or 10), with short, 30 minute talks. Lots of empty
        > halls where people can simply gather for a BOF.

        Could you define "smaller halls"? Many people think of this to mean 250
        seaters. But I think you have a much smaller number in mind, and that
        interests me, because I have been playing with a similar idea.

        Do you have a number in mind? 50? 100?

        > BOF rooms should be provided with whiteboards and markers.

        You realise that very small halls will probably not be able to have
        projectors (the costs would kill us) - would just whiteboards and
        markers, chairs and a cosy atmosphere work?

        > Network connectivity.

        Totally. But while on the point - be aware that in any large kind of
        venue, we are talking about wireless here, *not* wired points. This is a
        heads-up for everyone - if you will be looking for connectivity, make
        sure that you have a wireless card in your notebook.

        > Advanced topics, possibly some medium. High technical content, low
        > marketing. Take a line from Apricot, and make sure that keynotes are
        > limited to technical speakers only.

        Zero marketing. That's clear, and has always been the rule, even though
        some people have tried to bend the rules.

        However, I disagree with "technical speakers only". I would certainly
        welcome people coming and speaking about copyright laws, Creative
        Commons, corporate and government policies, etc.

        I totally agree that any marketing drones who try to sell boxes from the
        stage should be filtered out immediately, and even publicly pulled up
        and stopped if they try to do what some speakers did in 2002 and 2003.

        > I suspect that the problem for most people from other LUGs will be the
        > commute time to Bangalore. For someone coming from Delhi for a three day
        > event by train, the train journey is 72 hours, and a 72 hour event, so
        > effectively they are away from work for 7 days.

        That is unfortunately a natural outcome of the distances involved, but
        if you look at the USA or Europe, where distances are far greater, you
        still see students and other people making long bus/train trips to
        events. I am afraid it boils down to how interested you are in
        participating - if you plan ahead sufficiently, anything is possible.

        But that is *not* what I meant.

        Every year, at least 20% of the audiences are from out of station. And
        that is not counting any sponsored speakers.

        What I find, however, is that they refuse to participate as their LUGs.
        Period. Someone will trek down all the way from Delhi, but won't stand
        up and be counted as being from ilugd.

        What I meant by participation is LUGs making LB a place where they (or
        their representatives) can meet with other LUGs and share ideas,
        experiences, comments and recommendations.

        FOSS groups and SIGs (such as Gnome and KDE groups, Indic groups like
        Indlinux, etc.) should grab the opportunity of having a conference where
        they can meet up, instead of painfully arranging a separate event.

        LB is India's (and probably Asia's) single largest FOSS event, and has
        been for the past 4 years - shouldn't the LUGs and SIGs capitalise on
        that and use the chance to further their objectives?

        When will the islands become a nation?

        > Holding the event over a weekend is probably a good idea, or
        > Thursday/Friday/Saturday.

        We have been through this before - and I can tell you with absolute
        certainty that the weekdays don't matter at all. There is no period in
        the week that is suitable for all. In fact, I can virtually guarantee
        that many people from out of town will not come if the event is on a
        weekend, because they cannot combine multiple things (like business
        meetings in Bangalore, job interviews, etc.) with being at LB.


        > A few talks on FLOSS on Windows? Talks aimed at the government should
        > stress on open, standardised document formats with no patent issues
        > anywhere.

        We need people to talk about patents, copyrights, and stuff like that.
        It is unbelievable how many newbies to the FOSS world (and even some
        veterans) simply don't understand the GPL or the licensing terms, or how
        copyrights and patents work.

        I'd love to have sub-conferences for stuff like this, with knowledgeable
        people (Lawrence Liang? Maybe even Larry Lessig?) coming and clearing up
        issues.

        >>- Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be addressed?
        >
        > If we know specific issues, we can probably address them. Linux support
        > used to be an issue. There are so many companies offering support today
        > that it really doesn't matter. Perhaps we could get someone from
        > Munich/Vienna over to discuss their migration plans to Linux?

        This is a good point. The thing we need to do is to get the
        government(s) to come and talk to us and tell us what their issues are,
        so that we can address them, and vice/versa. This of course assumes
        active government(s) participation - both Indian and other countries.

        > Also, someone from the Maharashtra/Chattisgarh governments discussing
        > their Linux use (since there two appear to be the most highly aimed at
        > FLOSS usage today)?

        Several other state governments are now FOSSified, but degrees of
        implementation and success vary. The trick is to get the more successful
        ones together with the less successful ones, and getting them to talk.

        > A mixture of both. Have the formal talks set to speaker + audience, with
        > lots of space and time for BOFs.

        Sounds good.

        >>- Anything that doesnt seem to ever get addressed, but needs to be?
        >>
        >
        > Network connectivity :).

        Let me put that one to rest (and let this be a warning to the
        infrastructure people of the event) - if there is no world-class
        connectivity in place 72 hours before the event, fully tested, with a
        dedicated Network Operations Centre on the premises, manned by savvy
        people (volunteer now!), I will personally call the event off.

        And you can hold me to that - I SWEAR that that this year, there will be
        no shortage of bandwidth, or there will be no event.

        Thanks, Devdas, this has been a useful note to reply to.

        Atul

        --
        Atul Chitnis
        http://atulchitnis.com (Professional)
        http://atulchitnis.net (Personal)
      • Kenneth Gonsalves
        on a purely personal note - what *I* would love to have: a couple of experts in the particular field building up an application/setup from scratch. example: a
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
          on a purely personal note - what *I* would love to have:

          a couple of experts in the particular field building up an
          application/setup from scratch. example:

          a complete user friendly platform independant gui app, integrating
          security, rdbms backend, business coding using
          linux/postgresql/apache/plone-archetypes including installation,
          setup, coding and deployment

          or

          complete email solution including spamfiltering, virus protection,
          different types of distribution, censorship etc etc

          if i had six of these to attend, i wouldnt attend anything else

          --
          regards
          kg

          http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
          tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
          ಇಂಡ್ಲಿನಕ್ಸ வாழ்க!
        • Devdas Bhagat
          ... I was thinking a maximum of 25 or 30 people. That way the audience can interact with the speaker, and each other. ... Oh yes. With a smaller audience, you
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
            On 08/07/05 16:46 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
            > Devdas Bhagat wrote:
            >
            > > I would personally prefer smaller, more focussed audiences. Lots of
            > > smaller halls (8 or 10), with short, 30 minute talks. Lots of empty
            > > halls where people can simply gather for a BOF.
            >
            > Could you define "smaller halls"? Many people think of this to mean
            > 250
            > seaters. But I think you have a much smaller number in mind, and that
            > interests me, because I have been playing with a similar idea.
            >
            > Do you have a number in mind? 50? 100?

            I was thinking a maximum of 25 or 30 people. That way the audience can
            interact with the speaker, and each other.

            >
            > > BOF rooms should be provided with whiteboards and markers.
            >
            > You realise that very small halls will probably not be able to have
            > projectors (the costs would kill us) - would just whiteboards and
            > markers, chairs and a cosy atmosphere work?
            >
            Oh yes. With a smaller audience, you don't need slides as much as being
            able to draw on a whiteboard and clarify your points.

            > > Network connectivity.
            >
            > Totally. But while on the point - be aware that in any large kind of
            > venue, we are talking about wireless here, *not* wired points. This is a
            > heads-up for everyone - if you will be looking for connectivity, make
            > sure that you have a wireless card in your notebook.
            >
            > > Advanced topics, possibly some medium. High technical content, low
            > > marketing. Take a line from Apricot, and make sure that keynotes are
            > > limited to technical speakers only.
            >
            > Zero marketing. That's clear, and has always been the rule, even
            > though
            > some people have tried to bend the rules.
            >
            > However, I disagree with "technical speakers only". I would certainly
            > welcome people coming and speaking about copyright laws, Creative
            > Commons, corporate and government policies, etc.
            >
            That is technical content (from the point of view of the conference).
            The selling and vendor talk should be left to the corporate sales booth
            area.

            > I totally agree that any marketing drones who try to sell boxes from the
            > stage should be filtered out immediately, and even publicly pulled up
            > and stopped if they try to do what some speakers did in 2002 and 2003.
            >
            > > I suspect that the problem for most people from other LUGs will be the
            > > commute time to Bangalore. For someone coming from Delhi for a three day
            > > event by train, the train journey is 72 hours, and a 72 hour event, so
            > > effectively they are away from work for 7 days.
            >
            > That is unfortunately a natural outcome of the distances involved, but
            > if you look at the USA or Europe, where distances are far greater, you
            > still see students and other people making long bus/train trips to
            > events. I am afraid it boils down to how interested you are in
            > participating - if you plan ahead sufficiently, anything is possible.
            >
            I agree. However, the fact remains that travel in India by air is
            expensive, and trains take too long. Hmm, I wonder if a mass booking by
            Deccan or any one of the other cheap airlines would be possible? Have
            15+ people book a flight in one shot from Delhi to Bangalore and they
            should be able to get down quite cheaply.

            > But that is *not* what I meant.
            >
            > Every year, at least 20% of the audiences are from out of station. And
            > that is not counting any sponsored speakers.
            >
            > What I find, however, is that they refuse to participate as their LUGs.
            > Period. Someone will trek down all the way from Delhi, but won't stand
            > up and be counted as being from ilugd.
            >
            > What I meant by participation is LUGs making LB a place where they (or
            > their representatives) can meet with other LUGs and share ideas,
            > experiences, comments and recommendations.
            >
            How to get people to talk? Put them in the same room, lock the door and
            bar the windows and don't let them out until they reach some kind of
            agreement. Short of that, I don't see much possibility of being able to
            get people to volunteer to represent LUGs if they don't want to.

            > FOSS groups and SIGs (such as Gnome and KDE groups, Indic groups like
            > Indlinux, etc.) should grab the opportunity of having a conference
            > where
            > they can meet up, instead of painfully arranging a separate event.
            >
            The problem with LB has been the rather amorphous nature of the event.
            SIGs are _very_ hard to do with large numbers of people face to face.

            If we can promote the smaller group discussions, things develop quite
            well.

            The real part of a conference is in the hallways and at the coffee
            tables anyway.

            > LB is India's (and probably Asia's) single largest FOSS event, and has
            > been for the past 4 years - shouldn't the LUGs and SIGs capitalise on
            > that and use the chance to further their objectives?
            >
            > When will the islands become a nation?
            >
            > > Holding the event over a weekend is probably a good idea, or
            > > Thursday/Friday/Saturday.
            >
            > We have been through this before - and I can tell you with absolute
            > certainty that the weekdays don't matter at all. There is no period in
            > the week that is suitable for all. In fact, I can virtually guarantee
            > that many people from out of town will not come if the event is on a
            > weekend, because they cannot combine multiple things (like business
            > meetings in Bangalore, job interviews, etc.) with being at LB.
            >
            Which is why I said Thu/Fri/Sat. You get the crowd that wants to do
            business in the same trip, as well as people who can't get very long
            leaves (leave Saturday evening, be home on Sunday, report to work on
            Monday, save a days worth of leave -- makes HR departments happy).
            >
            > > A few talks on FLOSS on Windows? Talks aimed at the government
            > > should
            > > stress on open, standardised document formats with no patent issues
            > > anywhere.
            >
            > We need people to talk about patents, copyrights, and stuff like that.
            > It is unbelievable how many newbies to the FOSS world (and even some
            > veterans) simply don't understand the GPL or the licensing terms, or
            > how
            > copyrights and patents work.
            >
            > I'd love to have sub-conferences for stuff like this, with
            > knowledgeable
            > people (Lawrence Liang? Maybe even Larry Lessig?) coming and clearing
            > up
            > issues.
            >
            > >>- Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be
            > >>addressed?
            > >
            > > If we know specific issues, we can probably address them. Linux
            > > support
            > > used to be an issue. There are so many companies offering support
            > > today
            > > that it really doesn't matter. Perhaps we could get someone from
            > > Munich/Vienna over to discuss their migration plans to Linux?
            >
            > This is a good point. The thing we need to do is to get the
            > government(s) to come and talk to us and tell us what their issues
            > are,
            > so that we can address them, and vice/versa. This of course assumes
            > active government(s) participation - both Indian and other countries.
            >
            Hmmm, perhaps people from Largo, Florida, USA? Since their Linux
            movement with thin clients has not received all that much publicity
            currently, but it was the first major move by a government.

            Someone from Largo and someone from Munich/Vienna would be nice to have
            over.

            Devdas Bhagat
          • Devdas Bhagat
            ... The point of my small talk suggestion was to be able to cover _design_ theory extensively. Covering practical implementations can be left to the BOFs.
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
              On 08/07/05 17:08 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
              > on a purely personal note - what *I* would love to have:
              >
              > a couple of experts in the particular field building up an
              > application/setup from scratch. example:
              >
              > a complete user friendly platform independant gui app, integrating
              > security, rdbms backend, business coding using
              > linux/postgresql/apache/plone-archetypes including installation,
              > setup, coding and deployment
              >
              > or
              >
              > complete email solution including spamfiltering, virus protection,
              > different types of distribution, censorship etc etc
              >
              > if i had six of these to attend, i wouldnt attend anything else

              The point of my small talk suggestion was to be able to cover _design_
              theory extensively. Covering practical implementations can be left to
              the BOFs. (Doing it formally is a one or two day session for _each_ of
              those topics -- networking conferences like APRICOT/SANOG have:
              5 days of practical sessions.
              2 days of tutorials (heavy theory) .
              1 or 2 days of actual conference.

              And the practicals have basic prerequisites of knowing theory.

              Devdas Bhagat
            • Kenneth Gonsalves
              ... i know indlinux guys already have something like this on paper -- regards kg http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                On Friday 08 Jul 2005 5:25 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:

                > > if i had six of these to attend, i wouldnt attend anything else
                >
                > The point of my small talk suggestion was to be able to cover
                > _design_ theory extensively. Covering practical implementations can
                > be left to the BOFs. (Doing it formally is a one or two day session
                > for _each_ of those topics -- networking conferences like
                > APRICOT/SANOG have: 5 days of practical sessions.
                > 2 days of tutorials (heavy theory) .
                > 1 or 2 days of actual conference.

                i know indlinux guys already have something like this on paper
                --
                regards
                kg

                http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
                tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
                ಇಂಡ್ಲಿನಕ್ಸ வாழ்க!
              • Atul Chitnis
                ... Selling and vendor talk from the stage has been banned from the first LB. Atul -- ... Atul Chitnis | mail@atulchitnis.net Bangalore, India |
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                  On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Devdas Bhagat wrote:

                  >> However, I disagree with "technical speakers only". I would certainly
                  >> welcome people coming and speaking about copyright laws, Creative
                  >> Commons, corporate and government policies, etc.
                  >>
                  > That is technical content (from the point of view of the conference).
                  > The selling and vendor talk should be left to the corporate sales booth
                  > area.

                  Selling and vendor talk from the stage has been banned from the first LB.

                  Atul

                  --
                  -----------------------------------------
                  Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                  Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                  -----------------------------------------
                • Philip Tellis
                  ... Maybe someone from Brasil too. -- I didn t go to university. Didn t even finish A-levels. But I have sympathy for those who did. (alt.fan.pratchett)
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                    Sometime Today, DB cobbled together some glyphs to say:

                    > Someone from Largo and someone from Munich/Vienna would be nice to
                    > have over.

                    Maybe someone from Brasil too.

                    --
                    I didn't go to university. Didn't even finish A-levels. But I have sympathy
                    for those who did.
                    (alt.fan.pratchett)
                  • Arun Raghavan
                    I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so little participation
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                      I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other
                      ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so
                      little participation from the other LUGs.

                      And can we have an Ideology track for
                      Copyleft/Evangelism/CreativeCommons/$cause? Right now, I guess the
                      firebrands have to catch people in the halls and splash them with holy
                      water on an informal basis. This way, we could have more focussed
                      discussion of these things. Besides, it would introduce a healthy
                      amount of yelling and screaming and (dare I dream) blood and
                      mutilation (I'm thinking bring-your-own-cleavers here).

                      And it would be *amazing* if we could get Lawrence Lessig to speak.
                      --
                      Arun Raghavan
                      (http://nemesis.accosted.net)
                      v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
                      e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
                    • Atul Chitnis
                      ... We have invited LUGs every year, through personal mailto the coordinators or (if no such address was available) via a mail to the list, and of course by
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                        On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Arun Raghavan wrote:

                        > I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other
                        > ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so
                        > little participation from the other LUGs.

                        We have invited LUGs every year, through personal mailto the coordinators
                        or (if no such address was available) via a mail to the list, and of
                        course by putting info on the site.

                        And amazingly, people do come (there goes the distance/cost argument!) -
                        they just refuse to represent their LUGs/SIGs!

                        Even if there isnt a big contingent from each LUG (like we have from Goa
                        every year)- it would be fantastic if the coordinators of each LUG (or the
                        appointed representatives, which could be members empowered by the LUG to
                        speak on the LUG's behalf) could have a sort of national round-table
                        conference at the event, where they can discuss their issues, their
                        experiences, their solutions and their recommendations.

                        I find this particularly urgent now, because I am beginning to see the
                        LUGs being sidelined by the Powers That Be. In fact, someone from a
                        well-known vendor recently told me that the LUGs are irrelevent, and that
                        they only work with organisations that actually do something worthwhile
                        (according to the vendor).

                        These very same vendors also tend to raise the profile of *some* groups
                        (that they are involved with) with people like the Government, completely
                        cutting the LUGs out of the picture.

                        This, according to me, is killing the goose that lays golden eggs, or
                        shooting yourself in the foot. It was the LUGs that did the hard ground
                        work, it is the LUGs that support people who have questions, it is the
                        LUGs who come up with initiatives. When the LUGs become irrelevant, the
                        passion and the backbone goes out of the picture, and the efforts die
                        down, making it a vendors' game.

                        This is a state that needs correction - but it is for the LUGs to help
                        correct it. They have to realise that they cannot exist in isolation, but
                        at the same time they have to understand that politics isnt the solution
                        either.

                        Today, not a single LUG cooperates with another anywhere in India, there
                        is no agenda, there is no coordinated effort.

                        The same person who made the earlier statement also admits that he felt
                        that the community spirit no longer existed, and without it he personlly
                        lost interest.

                        I agree with him, because I felt the same thing in my home LUG.

                        The difference between what a LUG meet used to be and what a (say) Java or
                        C# users group meet is today is drastic. The latter are typically cold,
                        sterile, focussed on personal or corporate needs, while the former was
                        about working together, a community spirit that was about achieving
                        something as a movement, crossing social and commercial borders.

                        There is a crying need to bring that spirit back before it is completely
                        gone, effectively taking away that one factor that the MS marketing
                        department could never counter. In effect - no community, and we have lost
                        the war.

                        "Sharing" is a social concept, not a commercial one - whether sharing of
                        software, ideas, knowledge or just resources. "Community" is a social
                        concept too, so the very core of FOSS (shared development, shared efforts,
                        shared resources) is based on the community spirit.

                        Which brings me to your next point:

                        > And can we have an Ideology track for
                        > Copyleft/Evangelism/CreativeCommons/$cause? Right now, I guess the
                        > firebrands have to catch people in the halls and splash them with holy
                        > water on an informal basis. This way, we could have more focussed
                        > discussion of these things. Besides, it would introduce a healthy amount
                        > of yelling and screaming and (dare I dream) blood and mutilation (I'm
                        > thinking bring-your-own-cleavers here).

                        Every year, we have had a "community track" which was meant to be
                        *precisely* what you talk about. But what's the point of throwing a party
                        if nobody comes? While every track overflowed with talk proposals, the
                        community track was left hanging. In fact, other than Sudhakar "Thaths"
                        Chandrasekharan's talk in 2003, I don't recall a single social or
                        community oriented talk. Sure, there were the obligatory "how to run a
                        FOSS project"talks, which do have their place, but those are certainly not
                        "community" talks.

                        And frankly, that is the real reason why students are missing. The fire
                        has died down, and no one is willing to blow into the dying embers to try
                        and get it going again, no one is willing to feed the fire with his/her
                        own time.

                        The other side isn't winning the war - we are losing it.

                        > And it would be *amazing* if we could get Lawrence Lessig to speak.

                        Have you read Larry's blog? http://www.lessig.org/blog/

                        Larry goes whereever he can, whereever he feels he can make a difference.
                        But he only goes where there is an active community that isn't
                        vendor-driven or product oriented. That is why you will find him at a
                        conference in Brazil or in a university in Germany, but rarely at a
                        conference that is effectively about something commercial (unless, of
                        course, he is involved professionally).

                        If you think that I get passionate about things, you need to meet Larry -
                        he is unbelievably focussed, and passionate about his causes. If you want
                        to see Larry at LB, then it would have to be because he believes (rightly)
                        that there is something to be achieved to further his causes, and that he
                        is addressing communities, not commercial entities who simply see him as a
                        way of attracting eyeballs.

                        I can't speak for him, but I can safely assume that if there is a
                        community, he will be inclined to come.

                        The same, I believe, applies to people like Linus, Alan Cox, Maddog Hall
                        and others.

                        I can also safely say this:

                        Unless the Indian FOSS community projects itself and highlights its own
                        work (instead of only coming to listen to foreign big names speak - the
                        janata entertainment that Biju referred to), there is little hope of India
                        ever being seen as a FOSS Superpower.

                        I again need to point everyone at my own article from years ago:

                        http://atulchitnis.net/diary/showentry/100

                        If you don't participate, the community dies.

                        Now how do we get that message out to the LUGs? How do we get that message
                        through to our own home LUGs?

                        Atul

                        --
                        -----------------------------------------
                        Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                        Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                        -----------------------------------------
                      • Arun Raghavan
                        Perhaps we could organize a pre-LB talk between the LUGs. On IRC might be cheaper, in person would be better. Something to discuss how we can use LB to bring
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                          Perhaps we could organize a pre-LB talk between the LUGs. On IRC might
                          be cheaper, in person would be better. Something to discuss how we can
                          use LB to bring the community focus back to the forefront - on a
                          national level, rather than locally. Sort of figure a direction we
                          want to take, get more feedback/inputs on what is required to do this,
                          brainstorming, os forth. This needs to be done *now* if we want to be
                          ready with this for LB,

                          Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, anyone?
                          --
                          Arun Raghavan
                          (http://nemesis.accosted.net)
                          v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
                          e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
                        • sriramx_2000
                          ... coordinators ... argument!) - ... I d posted another mail last night with the subject Some disturbing feedback . Hopefully, that mail is indeed feedback,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 13, 2005
                            --- In linux-bangalore-2005@yahoogroups.com, Atul Chitnis <mail@a...>
                            wrote:
                            > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Arun Raghavan wrote:
                            >
                            > > I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other
                            > > ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so
                            > > little participation from the other LUGs.
                            >
                            > We have invited LUGs every year, through personal mailto the
                            coordinators
                            > or (if no such address was available) via a mail to the list, and of
                            > course by putting info on the site.
                            >
                            > And amazingly, people do come (there goes the distance/cost
                            argument!) -
                            > they just refuse to represent their LUGs/SIGs!
                            >

                            I'd posted another mail last night with the subject "Some disturbing
                            feedback".
                            Hopefully, that mail is indeed feedback, and could help us examine our
                            positioning ?

                            I see LB this year (and from now on) to be
                            - A meeting ground for various FLOSS communities (Linux, BSD, Java,
                            .NET, Apache, Eclipse,
                            Agile Programming)
                            - We talk about who we each are
                            - We explicitly state our problems (motivating people, staying
                            motivated, not knowing how to push FLOSS in our local community and
                            area of influence) etc.
                            - We talk about success stories, and on going efforts (straight facts
                            without
                            any sugar coating - after all, who are we fooling ?)
                            - We seek advice on our problems and find out how others have
                            addressed these problems.

                            Are my assumptions about LB 2005 correct ?

                            > Even if there isnt a big contingent from each LUG (like we have from
                            Goa
                            > every year)- it would be fantastic if the coordinators of each LUG
                            (or the
                            > appointed representatives, which could be members empowered by the
                            LUG to
                            > speak on the LUG's behalf) could have a sort of national round-table
                            > conference at the event, where they can discuss their issues, their
                            > experiences, their solutions and their recommendations.
                            >

                            I volunteer to represent NashLUG, Nashik (Maharashtra). I'd attended
                            LB 2004, but had no clue on what to expect there.

                            Second, I thought - at that time - that this was an event that
                            Bangalore's LUG had organized and that they'd invited speakers from
                            all over, etc. When I saw the ILUG-Goa Stall, I'd assumed next that
                            perhaps Fredrick Noronha does things in style (!).

                            I see now that the next LB meet is being positioned as a platform for
                            various FLOSS communities from all over India to meet, speak, learn
                            from each other, and work unitedly. If this was the message last year
                            too, I didn't get it.

                            [snip]

                            > The same person who made the earlier statement also admits that he felt
                            > that the community spirit no longer existed, and without it he
                            personlly
                            > lost interest.
                            >
                            > I agree with him, because I felt the same thing in my home LUG.
                            >
                            > The difference between what a LUG meet used to be and what a (say)
                            Java or
                            > C# users group meet is today is drastic. The latter are typically cold,
                            > sterile, focussed on personal or corporate needs, while the former was
                            > about working together, a community spirit that was about achieving
                            > something as a movement, crossing social and commercial borders.
                            >
                            > There is a crying need to bring that spirit back before it is
                            completely
                            > gone, effectively taking away that one factor that the MS marketing
                            > department could never counter. In effect - no community, and we
                            have lost
                            > the war.
                            >

                            A lot of us next generation LUG members are clueless on how to build a
                            community.
                            I just recalled that there's a User group howto on tldp, I'll go look
                            at that.

                            Your talk last year on China, and the need for innovation was
                            certainly simulating.
                            I was especially proud to be one of two people in the room who raised
                            their hands when
                            you'd asked "How may work on something that has never been done before ?".

                            We need more such talks, and all you experienced folks need to keep
                            talking so that
                            the word spreads.

                            In Nashik, I talk to lots of young folks on Linux, and on Object
                            Oriented Programming.
                            If I manage to wow even _one_ person, I consider the entire academic
                            year's efforts to have
                            been worth all the effort.

                            Maybe it's the territorial nature (states, languages, etc) that makes
                            folks believing that they
                            may not be welcome somewhere. I myself thought so until I noticed
                            folks like Devdas Bhagat and

                            > "Sharing" is a social concept, not a commercial one - whether
                            sharing of
                            > software, ideas, knowledge or just resources. "Community" is a social
                            > concept too, so the very core of FOSS (shared development, shared
                            efforts,
                            > shared resources) is based on the community spirit.
                            >
                            > Which brings me to your next point:
                            >
                            > > And can we have an Ideology track for
                            > > Copyleft/Evangelism/CreativeCommons/$cause? Right now, I guess the
                            > > firebrands have to catch people in the halls and splash them with
                            holy
                            > > water on an informal basis. This way, we could have more focussed
                            > > discussion of these things. Besides, it would introduce a healthy
                            amount
                            > > of yelling and screaming and (dare I dream) blood and mutilation (I'm
                            > > thinking bring-your-own-cleavers here).
                            >
                            > Every year, we have had a "community track" which was meant to be
                            > *precisely* what you talk about. But what's the point of throwing a
                            party
                            > if nobody comes? While every track overflowed with talk proposals, the
                            > community track was left hanging. In fact, other than Sudhakar "Thaths"
                            > Chandrasekharan's talk in 2003, I don't recall a single social or
                            > community oriented talk. Sure, there were the obligatory "how to run a
                            > FOSS project"talks, which do have their place, but those are
                            certainly not
                            > "community" talks.
                            >

                            What, then, is a community talk ? I wish to know this _right away_,
                            because
                            I'm motivated enough to drive activity in my LUG. I prefer working
                            with the
                            student community, but I see that most students "grow up", get busy
                            with work,
                            and then lose interest in community activities.

                            If your talk last year on "China, and the need of India to innovate"
                            was community talk,
                            then we need more talks and discussions like that.

                            > And frankly, that is the real reason why students are missing. The fire
                            > has died down, and no one is willing to blow into the dying embers
                            to try
                            > and get it going again, no one is willing to feed the fire with his/her
                            > own time.
                            >

                            Ack. I've seen this happen in my LUG. And unfortunately, some of us
                            here have
                            learnt the bitter lesson that "Free things have no value".
                            Free as in free support, free lectures, free CDs.

                            If there's something wrong with what we're doing, I'd like to know
                            what it is.

                            [snip]

                            > Unless the Indian FOSS community projects itself and highlights its own
                            > work (instead of only coming to listen to foreign big names speak - the
                            > janata entertainment that Biju referred to), there is little hope of
                            India
                            > ever being seen as a FOSS Superpower.
                            >

                            Hmm. Ack. There are some products that I've worked on which I'm trying
                            to get
                            my company to release under the Apache License. Perhaps I could talk
                            of my experiences
                            at the LB meet ?

                            > I again need to point everyone at my own article from years ago:
                            >
                            > http://atulchitnis.net/diary/showentry/100
                            >
                            > If you don't participate, the community dies.
                            >
                            > Now how do we get that message out to the LUGs? How do we get that
                            message
                            > through to our own home LUGs?
                            >

                            How about assuming that there are lots of LUGs out there that contain
                            fresh minds
                            and then telling us all what LB 2005 is, and how we all need to take
                            advantage of
                            the platform that the LB team wants to provide us with ?


                            > Atul
                            >

                            -- Sriram
                          • Atul Chitnis
                            Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this list or about the discussions going on here:
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                              Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this list
                              or about the discussions going on here:

                              http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020876.html

                              If there is someone from Mumbai here (Karunakar, Philip?) maybe you could
                              bring your fellow lug-mates uptodate and get them involved?

                              Thanks!

                              Atul

                              --
                              -----------------------------------------
                              Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                              Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                              -----------------------------------------
                            • Atul Chitnis
                              Dear all, The 7 days that I had arbitrarily laid down to form the basis for further discussions have now finished. Going through this humongous thread, I find
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                Dear all,

                                The 7 days that I had arbitrarily laid down to form the basis for further
                                discussions have now finished.

                                Going through this humongous thread, I find that there are several clear
                                subjects that need discussion, so I am now going to break this thread into
                                several separate ones - one for each subject. This will help keep things
                                more focussed.

                                The subjects that I have identified are:

                                - Conference Formats

                                - Conference Facilities

                                - Community/LUGs/SIGs involvement

                                - Student/Colleges involvement

                                Did I miss any? I am sure I have, so feel free to start a separate thread
                                for any subject that you feel needs discussion as well.

                                Many thanks for all your inputs/suggestions/etc so far.


                                Atul



                                --
                                -----------------------------------------
                                Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                                Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                                -----------------------------------------
                              • Sriram N
                                ... I took the liberty to writing in to the ILUG-Mumbai list (http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020889.html) However, I think a
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                  --- Atul Chitnis <mail@...> wrote:

                                  > Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this list
                                  > or about the discussions going on here:
                                  >
                                  > http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020876.html
                                  >
                                  > If there is someone from Mumbai here (Karunakar, Philip?) maybe you could
                                  > bring your fellow lug-mates uptodate and get them involved?
                                  >

                                  I took the liberty to writing in to the ILUG-Mumbai list
                                  (http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020889.html)

                                  However, I think a whole lot of people and LUGs from all over India would
                                  really benefit from an announcement about "Linux Bangalore 2005".
                                  > Thanks!
                                  >
                                  > Atul
                                  >
                                  > --

                                  -- Sriram



                                  ____________________________________________________
                                  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                • Devdas Bhagat
                                  ... You missed one important one: Target Audience Everything else depends on this. Almost all input from me was for a highly technical audience. Devdas Bhagat
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                    On 15/07/05 17:26 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
                                    > Dear all,
                                    >
                                    > The 7 days that I had arbitrarily laid down to form the basis for further
                                    > discussions have now finished.
                                    >
                                    > Going through this humongous thread, I find that there are several clear
                                    > subjects that need discussion, so I am now going to break this thread into
                                    > several separate ones - one for each subject. This will help keep things
                                    > more focussed.
                                    >
                                    > The subjects that I have identified are:
                                    >
                                    > - Conference Formats
                                    >
                                    > - Conference Facilities
                                    >
                                    > - Community/LUGs/SIGs involvement
                                    >
                                    > - Student/Colleges involvement
                                    >
                                    > Did I miss any? I am sure I have, so feel free to start a separate thread
                                    > for any subject that you feel needs discussion as well.

                                    You missed one important one:

                                    Target Audience

                                    Everything else depends on this. Almost all input from me was for a
                                    highly technical audience.

                                    Devdas Bhagat
                                  • Guntupalli Karunakar
                                    On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:14:56 +0530 (IST) ... No longer in Mumbai these days, but the thing is GLUG activies there have been low except for monthly LUG meet if
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                      On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:14:56 +0530 (IST)
                                      Atul Chitnis <mail@...> wrote:

                                      > Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this
                                      > list or about the discussions going on here:
                                      >
                                      > http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020876.html
                                      >
                                      > If there is someone from Mumbai here (Karunakar, Philip?) maybe you
                                      > could bring your fellow lug-mates uptodate and get them involved?
                                      >
                                      No longer in Mumbai these days, but the thing is GLUG activies there
                                      have been low except for monthly LUG meet if someone is taking the
                                      pains to call and organize one, or a occasional talk event at some
                                      college.

                                      I think there needs to be a rethink on LUG concept, activities etc.
                                      barring a handful of LUGS which have some kind of physical activity,
                                      i guess most LUGs are list only type, with a common set of
                                      subscribers (myself included!), though there maybe many more which
                                      are low profile or not widely known on net.

                                      Karunakar

                                      --

                                      *************************************
                                      * Work: http://www.indlinux.org *
                                      * Blog: http://cartoonsoft.com/blog *
                                      *************************************
                                    • Jins Thomas
                                      Hi all i am jins thomas from bangalore itself. I am some what a beginnerto the world of linux ( 6 months) I am getting inspired alot by the mails of this yahoo
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 16, 2005
                                        Hi all
                                        i am jins thomas from bangalore itself. I am some what a beginnerto the
                                        world of linux ( 6 months)
                                        I am getting inspired alot by the mails of this yahoo group. and often
                                        getting confused on what all ways i can contribute.. I am sure many of the
                                        begineers of this group may be having a feeling..

                                        Would any body like Atul, or any of the veterans of this yahoo groups share
                                        how the new commers can contribute in the organizing part of this GREAT
                                        EVENT..


                                        Regards
                                        jins thomas




















                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: linux-bangalore-2005@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:linux-bangalore-2005@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Atul Chitnis
                                        Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 1:37 PM
                                        To: Linux Bangalore/2005
                                        Subject: [lb/2005] The next 7 days...


                                        All:

                                        The next seven days are going to be crucial to some of the plans being now
                                        carved in stone for the event.

                                        We have looked at the suggestions and comments made so far, plus the tons
                                        of private email that we have received with even more suggestions, but
                                        when you see the final plans, you will clearly see your recommendations
                                        and suggestions there.

                                        Here is what we need now:

                                        More.

                                        More suggestions from you, more recommendations, more comments. They are
                                        literally the bricks that we are using to build this house - without them,
                                        we will have gaping holes - and windows - that problems can creep through.
                                        (If that sounds familiar to you, don't blame me :) More involvement, more
                                        willingness to make things happen.

                                        Some ideas to discuss:

                                        - What will work better: a few halls that seat 1000 people at a time and
                                        have a guy speaking, or many midd-to-small sized halls that allow many
                                        topics to be discussed?

                                        - Special Interest Groups: what kind of groups (say Gentoo, debian,
                                        Fedora, Gnome, KDE, Education, User Groups, Indic/localization), and would
                                        these groups be able to set their own agendas, keeping focus tight, and
                                        not duplicate stuff from other SIGs?

                                        - Topics: Advanced, or newbie tutorials as well? Developer only, or admin,
                                        user etc. topics as well?

                                        - Community: What would make LUGs participate more actively, so that the
                                        world can see them? What would get them talking to each other at a
                                        non-political level? What would get them sharing ideas, discuss issues,
                                        work out solutions? Directions for the community (and - echoing the
                                        comments of one person in private email - is there a community, or have we
                                        allowed the vendors to take over?)

                                        - "Non-Linux": Our event is about Free and open source Software, not a
                                        single product. Sure, Linux is a great posterchild, but Linux isn't the
                                        only FOSS thing out there (despite some vendors trying their damnest to
                                        make the world believe that). So how do we get the non-Linux projects to
                                        get involved? How do we get our *BSD colleagues to consider this their
                                        event as well? The FOSS-on-Windows people? The OpenOffice people? The
                                        FOSS-on-OSX people? The PPP (Perl/PHP/Python) people?

                                        - Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be addressed?
                                        The Indian Government is committed to FOSS, how do we help them take
                                        things forward? How do we fix the problem of vendors getting their
                                        products into the educational curriculum? How could the government and
                                        academia get involved at our event to get their issues addressed?

                                        - Formats: Speaker+audience only, or discussion groups as well?

                                        - Anything that doesnt seem to ever get addressed, but needs to be?

                                        These are just samples - feel free to add any more topics.

                                        Anything relevant will get considered, and if we can fit it into the
                                        event, we will. Provided you tell us about it, of course.

                                        This is a Free and Open Source event - it can't happen if you don't get
                                        involved (just like every other FOSS project).

                                        To discuss these and more, get onto the mailing list:

                                        linux-bangalore-2005-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                        or

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/join

                                        Read what has been previously discussed:

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/messages

                                        Have your say. Build your event.

                                        In a few days the event announcement and the call for participation will
                                        go out - at that time, we need to know what we should use as selection
                                        criteria.

                                        Please spread the word - on your mailing lists, in your forums, in your
                                        oganisations. Get involved, get people involved.

                                        Believe me, when you see what we are building up here, you will kick
                                        yourself if you don't get your say in *now*.

                                        Think Woodstock, think revolution, think change the world.

                                        It's time for something new - and you are the one who can build it. Let's
                                        show the world how to do it right.

                                        Consider this the world's largest building block set - and you get to
                                        place your pieces in it to build something tremendous.

                                        Atul

                                        p.s. We would appreciate it if you leave your politician hats at home - we
                                        are trying to build here. Please come to the discussion with a positive
                                        frame of mind. If your dog bit you this morning, maybe you should take
                                        a day to cool off first - don't take it out on the list. :)

                                        If you need to offer criticism, make sure that your suggestion for an
                                        alternative is in the same message. No 100% negatives, please. In the
                                        closed source world, bug reports are "I used your product, and here is a
                                        bug". In the FOSS world it is "I used your product, here is a bug I found,
                                        and here is a patch/fix/suggestion".

                                        The rules of the list follow the FOSS world.





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