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Re: [lb/2005] The next 7 days...

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  • Devdas Bhagat
    ... I would personally prefer smaller, more focussed audiences. Lots of smaller halls (8 or 10), with short, 30 minute talks. Lots of empty halls where people
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 7, 2005
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      On 07/07/05 13:37 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
      > All:
      >
      > The next seven days are going to be crucial to some of the plans being now
      > carved in stone for the event.
      >
      > We have looked at the suggestions and comments made so far, plus the tons
      > of private email that we have received with even more suggestions, but
      > when you see the final plans, you will clearly see your recommendations
      > and suggestions there.
      >
      > Here is what we need now:
      >
      > More.
      >
      > More suggestions from you, more recommendations, more comments. They are
      > literally the bricks that we are using to build this house - without them,
      > we will have gaping holes - and windows - that problems can creep through.
      > (If that sounds familiar to you, don't blame me :) More involvement, more
      > willingness to make things happen.
      >
      > Some ideas to discuss:
      >
      > - What will work better: a few halls that seat 1000 people at a time and
      > have a guy speaking, or many midd-to-small sized halls that allow many
      > topics to be discussed?

      I would personally prefer smaller, more focussed audiences. Lots of
      smaller halls (8 or 10), with short, 30 minute talks. Lots of empty
      halls where people can simply gather for a BOF.

      BOF rooms should be provided with whiteboards and markers.

      Network connectivity.

      >
      > - Special Interest Groups: what kind of groups (say Gentoo, debian,
      > Fedora, Gnome, KDE, Education, User Groups, Indic/localization), and would
      > these groups be able to set their own agendas, keeping focus tight, and
      > not duplicate stuff from other SIGs?
      >
      > - Topics: Advanced, or newbie tutorials as well? Developer only, or admin,
      > user etc. topics as well?
      >
      Advanced topics, possibly some medium. High technical content, low
      marketing. Take a line from Apricot, and make sure that keynotes are
      limited to technical speakers only.

      > - Community: What would make LUGs participate more actively, so that the
      > world can see them? What would get them talking to each other at a

      I suspect that the problem for most people from other LUGs will be the
      commute time to Bangalore. For someone coming from Delhi for a three day
      event by train, the train journey is 72 hours, and a 72 hour event, so
      effectively they are away from work for 7 days.
      Holding the event over a weekend is probably a good idea, or
      Thursday/Friday/Saturday.

      > non-political level? What would get them sharing ideas, discuss issues,
      > work out solutions? Directions for the community (and - echoing the
      > comments of one person in private email - is there a community, or have we
      > allowed the vendors to take over?)
      >
      > - "Non-Linux": Our event is about Free and open source Software, not a
      > single product. Sure, Linux is a great posterchild, but Linux isn't the
      > only FOSS thing out there (despite some vendors trying their damnest to
      > make the world believe that). So how do we get the non-Linux projects to
      > get involved? How do we get our *BSD colleagues to consider this their
      > event as well? The FOSS-on-Windows people? The OpenOffice people? The
      > FOSS-on-OSX people? The PPP (Perl/PHP/Python) people?
      >
      A few talks on FLOSS on Windows? Talks aimed at the government should
      stress on open, standardised document formats with no patent issues
      anywhere.

      > - Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be addressed?
      > The Indian Government is committed to FOSS, how do we help them take
      > things forward? How do we fix the problem of vendors getting their
      > products into the educational curriculum? How could the government and
      > academia get involved at our event to get their issues addressed?
      >
      If we know specific issues, we can probably address them. Linux support
      used to be an issue. There are so many companies offering support today
      that it really doesn't matter. Perhaps we could get someone from
      Munich/Vienna over to discuss their migration plans to Linux?

      Also, someone from the Maharashtra/Chattisgarh governments discussing
      their Linux use (since there two appear to be the most highly aimed at
      FLOSS usage today)?

      > - Formats: Speaker+audience only, or discussion groups as well?
      >
      A mixture of both. Have the formal talks set to speaker + audience, with
      lots of space and time for BOFs.

      > - Anything that doesnt seem to ever get addressed, but needs to be?
      >
      Network connectivity :).

      Devdas Bhagat
    • Sreekanth Iyer
      I think one of the major focus should be on how india(bangalore) can contribute to FLOSS. Also make sense to list down the agenda for next one year after the
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 7, 2005
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        I think one of the major focus should be on how india(bangalore) can
        contribute to FLOSS.

        Also make sense to list down the agenda for next one year after the
        event !!


        Sree
      • Atul Chitnis
        ... Actually, it is not. I had made it clear last year that things are changing, and I request a little bit of faith here. LB has served a purpose for the past
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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          Biju Chacko wrote:
          > This is still orientated towards entertaining janatha.

          Actually, it is not. I had made it clear last year that things are
          changing, and I request a little bit of faith here.

          LB has served a purpose for the past 4 years, and none of it can be
          considered to be "wasted" or "pointless". If that was the case, explain
          the tremendous interest by companies and professionals in the event.

          Making it fun was always an objective, but I certainly believe that we
          have achieved much more than just having fun.

          > There is no point (IMHO) in putting in this kind of effort unless there
          > are specific objectives.

          That is correct, but remember that this is the FOSS world - you found a
          bug - where is your patch? How about helping *define* the goals and objectives?

          > There are enough ways nowadys for general public to learn about OSS --
          > they'll take care of themselves.

          No, that is an elitist view, and I disagree with it whole heartedly.
          That's like saying "there is enough info out there about anything - who
          needs teachers?"

          If you go and talk to many college profs these days, you will find a
          shocking level of cluelessness about FOSS. Ditto many companies. The
          other day I gave a talk at Hyderabad, and you should have seen the raw
          shock on the faces of some of the people present when I told them that
          FOSS ain't Public Domain, and that it is copyrighted software.

          There will never ever be a shortage of people who need to be told things
          before they understand them and gather enough interest to go out on the
          web and search for more info.

          I consider boot-camp education (formerly known as "advocacy") as
          important as teaching people the latest and greatest in tech.

          > This should transform into conference mode. Make it a venue for the
          > Indic, Education, GNOME, KDE and other SIGs to have india-specific
          > discussions.

          Read my original post again. I think you missed something. :)

          > It's easy to measure success then: what specific agendas have these
          > various groups been able to achieve or decide upon.

          It is not for *us* to measure that - the groups have to be willing to
          set their own agendas, and then be willing to report what they achieved
          at the event. Anything that they need to achieve it (like a place to
          meet and any facilities) - that's our job to arrange for them.

          > Lectures: been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

          And it didn't fit :)

          Lectures have their value, as have non-structured discussions, or
          intense SIGs/BoFs. What we need to know is - what balance?

          > Influencing the course of FOSS in India: now *thats* a challenge!

          Isn't it? :)

          You will understand a whole lot more when these shackles are taken off
          me and I can say more. :)

          Atul

          --
          Atul Chitnis
          http://atulchitnis.com (Professional)
          http://atulchitnis.net (Personal)
        • Atul Chitnis
          ... Bingo. That is a very good point. ... Actually something much more aggressive is in the pipeline. Stay tuned :) -- Atul Chitnis http://atulchitnis.com
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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            Sreekanth Iyer wrote:
            > I think one of the major focus should be on how india(bangalore) can
            > contribute to FLOSS.

            Bingo. That is a very good point.

            > Also make sense to list down the agenda for next one year after the
            > event !!

            Actually something much more aggressive is in the pipeline. Stay tuned :)

            --
            Atul Chitnis
            http://atulchitnis.com (Professional)
            http://atulchitnis.net (Personal)
          • Atul Chitnis
            ... Could you define smaller halls ? Many people think of this to mean 250 seaters. But I think you have a much smaller number in mind, and that interests me,
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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              Devdas Bhagat wrote:

              > I would personally prefer smaller, more focussed audiences. Lots of
              > smaller halls (8 or 10), with short, 30 minute talks. Lots of empty
              > halls where people can simply gather for a BOF.

              Could you define "smaller halls"? Many people think of this to mean 250
              seaters. But I think you have a much smaller number in mind, and that
              interests me, because I have been playing with a similar idea.

              Do you have a number in mind? 50? 100?

              > BOF rooms should be provided with whiteboards and markers.

              You realise that very small halls will probably not be able to have
              projectors (the costs would kill us) - would just whiteboards and
              markers, chairs and a cosy atmosphere work?

              > Network connectivity.

              Totally. But while on the point - be aware that in any large kind of
              venue, we are talking about wireless here, *not* wired points. This is a
              heads-up for everyone - if you will be looking for connectivity, make
              sure that you have a wireless card in your notebook.

              > Advanced topics, possibly some medium. High technical content, low
              > marketing. Take a line from Apricot, and make sure that keynotes are
              > limited to technical speakers only.

              Zero marketing. That's clear, and has always been the rule, even though
              some people have tried to bend the rules.

              However, I disagree with "technical speakers only". I would certainly
              welcome people coming and speaking about copyright laws, Creative
              Commons, corporate and government policies, etc.

              I totally agree that any marketing drones who try to sell boxes from the
              stage should be filtered out immediately, and even publicly pulled up
              and stopped if they try to do what some speakers did in 2002 and 2003.

              > I suspect that the problem for most people from other LUGs will be the
              > commute time to Bangalore. For someone coming from Delhi for a three day
              > event by train, the train journey is 72 hours, and a 72 hour event, so
              > effectively they are away from work for 7 days.

              That is unfortunately a natural outcome of the distances involved, but
              if you look at the USA or Europe, where distances are far greater, you
              still see students and other people making long bus/train trips to
              events. I am afraid it boils down to how interested you are in
              participating - if you plan ahead sufficiently, anything is possible.

              But that is *not* what I meant.

              Every year, at least 20% of the audiences are from out of station. And
              that is not counting any sponsored speakers.

              What I find, however, is that they refuse to participate as their LUGs.
              Period. Someone will trek down all the way from Delhi, but won't stand
              up and be counted as being from ilugd.

              What I meant by participation is LUGs making LB a place where they (or
              their representatives) can meet with other LUGs and share ideas,
              experiences, comments and recommendations.

              FOSS groups and SIGs (such as Gnome and KDE groups, Indic groups like
              Indlinux, etc.) should grab the opportunity of having a conference where
              they can meet up, instead of painfully arranging a separate event.

              LB is India's (and probably Asia's) single largest FOSS event, and has
              been for the past 4 years - shouldn't the LUGs and SIGs capitalise on
              that and use the chance to further their objectives?

              When will the islands become a nation?

              > Holding the event over a weekend is probably a good idea, or
              > Thursday/Friday/Saturday.

              We have been through this before - and I can tell you with absolute
              certainty that the weekdays don't matter at all. There is no period in
              the week that is suitable for all. In fact, I can virtually guarantee
              that many people from out of town will not come if the event is on a
              weekend, because they cannot combine multiple things (like business
              meetings in Bangalore, job interviews, etc.) with being at LB.


              > A few talks on FLOSS on Windows? Talks aimed at the government should
              > stress on open, standardised document formats with no patent issues
              > anywhere.

              We need people to talk about patents, copyrights, and stuff like that.
              It is unbelievable how many newbies to the FOSS world (and even some
              veterans) simply don't understand the GPL or the licensing terms, or how
              copyrights and patents work.

              I'd love to have sub-conferences for stuff like this, with knowledgeable
              people (Lawrence Liang? Maybe even Larry Lessig?) coming and clearing up
              issues.

              >>- Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be addressed?
              >
              > If we know specific issues, we can probably address them. Linux support
              > used to be an issue. There are so many companies offering support today
              > that it really doesn't matter. Perhaps we could get someone from
              > Munich/Vienna over to discuss their migration plans to Linux?

              This is a good point. The thing we need to do is to get the
              government(s) to come and talk to us and tell us what their issues are,
              so that we can address them, and vice/versa. This of course assumes
              active government(s) participation - both Indian and other countries.

              > Also, someone from the Maharashtra/Chattisgarh governments discussing
              > their Linux use (since there two appear to be the most highly aimed at
              > FLOSS usage today)?

              Several other state governments are now FOSSified, but degrees of
              implementation and success vary. The trick is to get the more successful
              ones together with the less successful ones, and getting them to talk.

              > A mixture of both. Have the formal talks set to speaker + audience, with
              > lots of space and time for BOFs.

              Sounds good.

              >>- Anything that doesnt seem to ever get addressed, but needs to be?
              >>
              >
              > Network connectivity :).

              Let me put that one to rest (and let this be a warning to the
              infrastructure people of the event) - if there is no world-class
              connectivity in place 72 hours before the event, fully tested, with a
              dedicated Network Operations Centre on the premises, manned by savvy
              people (volunteer now!), I will personally call the event off.

              And you can hold me to that - I SWEAR that that this year, there will be
              no shortage of bandwidth, or there will be no event.

              Thanks, Devdas, this has been a useful note to reply to.

              Atul

              --
              Atul Chitnis
              http://atulchitnis.com (Professional)
              http://atulchitnis.net (Personal)
            • Kenneth Gonsalves
              on a purely personal note - what *I* would love to have: a couple of experts in the particular field building up an application/setup from scratch. example: a
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                on a purely personal note - what *I* would love to have:

                a couple of experts in the particular field building up an
                application/setup from scratch. example:

                a complete user friendly platform independant gui app, integrating
                security, rdbms backend, business coding using
                linux/postgresql/apache/plone-archetypes including installation,
                setup, coding and deployment

                or

                complete email solution including spamfiltering, virus protection,
                different types of distribution, censorship etc etc

                if i had six of these to attend, i wouldnt attend anything else

                --
                regards
                kg

                http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
                tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
                ಇಂಡ್ಲಿನಕ್ಸ வாழ்க!
              • Devdas Bhagat
                ... I was thinking a maximum of 25 or 30 people. That way the audience can interact with the speaker, and each other. ... Oh yes. With a smaller audience, you
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                  On 08/07/05 16:46 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
                  > Devdas Bhagat wrote:
                  >
                  > > I would personally prefer smaller, more focussed audiences. Lots of
                  > > smaller halls (8 or 10), with short, 30 minute talks. Lots of empty
                  > > halls where people can simply gather for a BOF.
                  >
                  > Could you define "smaller halls"? Many people think of this to mean
                  > 250
                  > seaters. But I think you have a much smaller number in mind, and that
                  > interests me, because I have been playing with a similar idea.
                  >
                  > Do you have a number in mind? 50? 100?

                  I was thinking a maximum of 25 or 30 people. That way the audience can
                  interact with the speaker, and each other.

                  >
                  > > BOF rooms should be provided with whiteboards and markers.
                  >
                  > You realise that very small halls will probably not be able to have
                  > projectors (the costs would kill us) - would just whiteboards and
                  > markers, chairs and a cosy atmosphere work?
                  >
                  Oh yes. With a smaller audience, you don't need slides as much as being
                  able to draw on a whiteboard and clarify your points.

                  > > Network connectivity.
                  >
                  > Totally. But while on the point - be aware that in any large kind of
                  > venue, we are talking about wireless here, *not* wired points. This is a
                  > heads-up for everyone - if you will be looking for connectivity, make
                  > sure that you have a wireless card in your notebook.
                  >
                  > > Advanced topics, possibly some medium. High technical content, low
                  > > marketing. Take a line from Apricot, and make sure that keynotes are
                  > > limited to technical speakers only.
                  >
                  > Zero marketing. That's clear, and has always been the rule, even
                  > though
                  > some people have tried to bend the rules.
                  >
                  > However, I disagree with "technical speakers only". I would certainly
                  > welcome people coming and speaking about copyright laws, Creative
                  > Commons, corporate and government policies, etc.
                  >
                  That is technical content (from the point of view of the conference).
                  The selling and vendor talk should be left to the corporate sales booth
                  area.

                  > I totally agree that any marketing drones who try to sell boxes from the
                  > stage should be filtered out immediately, and even publicly pulled up
                  > and stopped if they try to do what some speakers did in 2002 and 2003.
                  >
                  > > I suspect that the problem for most people from other LUGs will be the
                  > > commute time to Bangalore. For someone coming from Delhi for a three day
                  > > event by train, the train journey is 72 hours, and a 72 hour event, so
                  > > effectively they are away from work for 7 days.
                  >
                  > That is unfortunately a natural outcome of the distances involved, but
                  > if you look at the USA or Europe, where distances are far greater, you
                  > still see students and other people making long bus/train trips to
                  > events. I am afraid it boils down to how interested you are in
                  > participating - if you plan ahead sufficiently, anything is possible.
                  >
                  I agree. However, the fact remains that travel in India by air is
                  expensive, and trains take too long. Hmm, I wonder if a mass booking by
                  Deccan or any one of the other cheap airlines would be possible? Have
                  15+ people book a flight in one shot from Delhi to Bangalore and they
                  should be able to get down quite cheaply.

                  > But that is *not* what I meant.
                  >
                  > Every year, at least 20% of the audiences are from out of station. And
                  > that is not counting any sponsored speakers.
                  >
                  > What I find, however, is that they refuse to participate as their LUGs.
                  > Period. Someone will trek down all the way from Delhi, but won't stand
                  > up and be counted as being from ilugd.
                  >
                  > What I meant by participation is LUGs making LB a place where they (or
                  > their representatives) can meet with other LUGs and share ideas,
                  > experiences, comments and recommendations.
                  >
                  How to get people to talk? Put them in the same room, lock the door and
                  bar the windows and don't let them out until they reach some kind of
                  agreement. Short of that, I don't see much possibility of being able to
                  get people to volunteer to represent LUGs if they don't want to.

                  > FOSS groups and SIGs (such as Gnome and KDE groups, Indic groups like
                  > Indlinux, etc.) should grab the opportunity of having a conference
                  > where
                  > they can meet up, instead of painfully arranging a separate event.
                  >
                  The problem with LB has been the rather amorphous nature of the event.
                  SIGs are _very_ hard to do with large numbers of people face to face.

                  If we can promote the smaller group discussions, things develop quite
                  well.

                  The real part of a conference is in the hallways and at the coffee
                  tables anyway.

                  > LB is India's (and probably Asia's) single largest FOSS event, and has
                  > been for the past 4 years - shouldn't the LUGs and SIGs capitalise on
                  > that and use the chance to further their objectives?
                  >
                  > When will the islands become a nation?
                  >
                  > > Holding the event over a weekend is probably a good idea, or
                  > > Thursday/Friday/Saturday.
                  >
                  > We have been through this before - and I can tell you with absolute
                  > certainty that the weekdays don't matter at all. There is no period in
                  > the week that is suitable for all. In fact, I can virtually guarantee
                  > that many people from out of town will not come if the event is on a
                  > weekend, because they cannot combine multiple things (like business
                  > meetings in Bangalore, job interviews, etc.) with being at LB.
                  >
                  Which is why I said Thu/Fri/Sat. You get the crowd that wants to do
                  business in the same trip, as well as people who can't get very long
                  leaves (leave Saturday evening, be home on Sunday, report to work on
                  Monday, save a days worth of leave -- makes HR departments happy).
                  >
                  > > A few talks on FLOSS on Windows? Talks aimed at the government
                  > > should
                  > > stress on open, standardised document formats with no patent issues
                  > > anywhere.
                  >
                  > We need people to talk about patents, copyrights, and stuff like that.
                  > It is unbelievable how many newbies to the FOSS world (and even some
                  > veterans) simply don't understand the GPL or the licensing terms, or
                  > how
                  > copyrights and patents work.
                  >
                  > I'd love to have sub-conferences for stuff like this, with
                  > knowledgeable
                  > people (Lawrence Liang? Maybe even Larry Lessig?) coming and clearing
                  > up
                  > issues.
                  >
                  > >>- Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be
                  > >>addressed?
                  > >
                  > > If we know specific issues, we can probably address them. Linux
                  > > support
                  > > used to be an issue. There are so many companies offering support
                  > > today
                  > > that it really doesn't matter. Perhaps we could get someone from
                  > > Munich/Vienna over to discuss their migration plans to Linux?
                  >
                  > This is a good point. The thing we need to do is to get the
                  > government(s) to come and talk to us and tell us what their issues
                  > are,
                  > so that we can address them, and vice/versa. This of course assumes
                  > active government(s) participation - both Indian and other countries.
                  >
                  Hmmm, perhaps people from Largo, Florida, USA? Since their Linux
                  movement with thin clients has not received all that much publicity
                  currently, but it was the first major move by a government.

                  Someone from Largo and someone from Munich/Vienna would be nice to have
                  over.

                  Devdas Bhagat
                • Devdas Bhagat
                  ... The point of my small talk suggestion was to be able to cover _design_ theory extensively. Covering practical implementations can be left to the BOFs.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                    On 08/07/05 17:08 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
                    > on a purely personal note - what *I* would love to have:
                    >
                    > a couple of experts in the particular field building up an
                    > application/setup from scratch. example:
                    >
                    > a complete user friendly platform independant gui app, integrating
                    > security, rdbms backend, business coding using
                    > linux/postgresql/apache/plone-archetypes including installation,
                    > setup, coding and deployment
                    >
                    > or
                    >
                    > complete email solution including spamfiltering, virus protection,
                    > different types of distribution, censorship etc etc
                    >
                    > if i had six of these to attend, i wouldnt attend anything else

                    The point of my small talk suggestion was to be able to cover _design_
                    theory extensively. Covering practical implementations can be left to
                    the BOFs. (Doing it formally is a one or two day session for _each_ of
                    those topics -- networking conferences like APRICOT/SANOG have:
                    5 days of practical sessions.
                    2 days of tutorials (heavy theory) .
                    1 or 2 days of actual conference.

                    And the practicals have basic prerequisites of knowing theory.

                    Devdas Bhagat
                  • Kenneth Gonsalves
                    ... i know indlinux guys already have something like this on paper -- regards kg http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                      On Friday 08 Jul 2005 5:25 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:

                      > > if i had six of these to attend, i wouldnt attend anything else
                      >
                      > The point of my small talk suggestion was to be able to cover
                      > _design_ theory extensively. Covering practical implementations can
                      > be left to the BOFs. (Doing it formally is a one or two day session
                      > for _each_ of those topics -- networking conferences like
                      > APRICOT/SANOG have: 5 days of practical sessions.
                      > 2 days of tutorials (heavy theory) .
                      > 1 or 2 days of actual conference.

                      i know indlinux guys already have something like this on paper
                      --
                      regards
                      kg

                      http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
                      tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
                      ಇಂಡ್ಲಿನಕ್ಸ வாழ்க!
                    • Atul Chitnis
                      ... Selling and vendor talk from the stage has been banned from the first LB. Atul -- ... Atul Chitnis | mail@atulchitnis.net Bangalore, India |
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                        On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Devdas Bhagat wrote:

                        >> However, I disagree with "technical speakers only". I would certainly
                        >> welcome people coming and speaking about copyright laws, Creative
                        >> Commons, corporate and government policies, etc.
                        >>
                        > That is technical content (from the point of view of the conference).
                        > The selling and vendor talk should be left to the corporate sales booth
                        > area.

                        Selling and vendor talk from the stage has been banned from the first LB.

                        Atul

                        --
                        -----------------------------------------
                        Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                        Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                        -----------------------------------------
                      • Philip Tellis
                        ... Maybe someone from Brasil too. -- I didn t go to university. Didn t even finish A-levels. But I have sympathy for those who did. (alt.fan.pratchett)
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                          Sometime Today, DB cobbled together some glyphs to say:

                          > Someone from Largo and someone from Munich/Vienna would be nice to
                          > have over.

                          Maybe someone from Brasil too.

                          --
                          I didn't go to university. Didn't even finish A-levels. But I have sympathy
                          for those who did.
                          (alt.fan.pratchett)
                        • Arun Raghavan
                          I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so little participation
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
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                            I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other
                            ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so
                            little participation from the other LUGs.

                            And can we have an Ideology track for
                            Copyleft/Evangelism/CreativeCommons/$cause? Right now, I guess the
                            firebrands have to catch people in the halls and splash them with holy
                            water on an informal basis. This way, we could have more focussed
                            discussion of these things. Besides, it would introduce a healthy
                            amount of yelling and screaming and (dare I dream) blood and
                            mutilation (I'm thinking bring-your-own-cleavers here).

                            And it would be *amazing* if we could get Lawrence Lessig to speak.
                            --
                            Arun Raghavan
                            (http://nemesis.accosted.net)
                            v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
                            e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
                          • Atul Chitnis
                            ... We have invited LUGs every year, through personal mailto the coordinators or (if no such address was available) via a mail to the list, and of course by
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Arun Raghavan wrote:

                              > I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other
                              > ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so
                              > little participation from the other LUGs.

                              We have invited LUGs every year, through personal mailto the coordinators
                              or (if no such address was available) via a mail to the list, and of
                              course by putting info on the site.

                              And amazingly, people do come (there goes the distance/cost argument!) -
                              they just refuse to represent their LUGs/SIGs!

                              Even if there isnt a big contingent from each LUG (like we have from Goa
                              every year)- it would be fantastic if the coordinators of each LUG (or the
                              appointed representatives, which could be members empowered by the LUG to
                              speak on the LUG's behalf) could have a sort of national round-table
                              conference at the event, where they can discuss their issues, their
                              experiences, their solutions and their recommendations.

                              I find this particularly urgent now, because I am beginning to see the
                              LUGs being sidelined by the Powers That Be. In fact, someone from a
                              well-known vendor recently told me that the LUGs are irrelevent, and that
                              they only work with organisations that actually do something worthwhile
                              (according to the vendor).

                              These very same vendors also tend to raise the profile of *some* groups
                              (that they are involved with) with people like the Government, completely
                              cutting the LUGs out of the picture.

                              This, according to me, is killing the goose that lays golden eggs, or
                              shooting yourself in the foot. It was the LUGs that did the hard ground
                              work, it is the LUGs that support people who have questions, it is the
                              LUGs who come up with initiatives. When the LUGs become irrelevant, the
                              passion and the backbone goes out of the picture, and the efforts die
                              down, making it a vendors' game.

                              This is a state that needs correction - but it is for the LUGs to help
                              correct it. They have to realise that they cannot exist in isolation, but
                              at the same time they have to understand that politics isnt the solution
                              either.

                              Today, not a single LUG cooperates with another anywhere in India, there
                              is no agenda, there is no coordinated effort.

                              The same person who made the earlier statement also admits that he felt
                              that the community spirit no longer existed, and without it he personlly
                              lost interest.

                              I agree with him, because I felt the same thing in my home LUG.

                              The difference between what a LUG meet used to be and what a (say) Java or
                              C# users group meet is today is drastic. The latter are typically cold,
                              sterile, focussed on personal or corporate needs, while the former was
                              about working together, a community spirit that was about achieving
                              something as a movement, crossing social and commercial borders.

                              There is a crying need to bring that spirit back before it is completely
                              gone, effectively taking away that one factor that the MS marketing
                              department could never counter. In effect - no community, and we have lost
                              the war.

                              "Sharing" is a social concept, not a commercial one - whether sharing of
                              software, ideas, knowledge or just resources. "Community" is a social
                              concept too, so the very core of FOSS (shared development, shared efforts,
                              shared resources) is based on the community spirit.

                              Which brings me to your next point:

                              > And can we have an Ideology track for
                              > Copyleft/Evangelism/CreativeCommons/$cause? Right now, I guess the
                              > firebrands have to catch people in the halls and splash them with holy
                              > water on an informal basis. This way, we could have more focussed
                              > discussion of these things. Besides, it would introduce a healthy amount
                              > of yelling and screaming and (dare I dream) blood and mutilation (I'm
                              > thinking bring-your-own-cleavers here).

                              Every year, we have had a "community track" which was meant to be
                              *precisely* what you talk about. But what's the point of throwing a party
                              if nobody comes? While every track overflowed with talk proposals, the
                              community track was left hanging. In fact, other than Sudhakar "Thaths"
                              Chandrasekharan's talk in 2003, I don't recall a single social or
                              community oriented talk. Sure, there were the obligatory "how to run a
                              FOSS project"talks, which do have their place, but those are certainly not
                              "community" talks.

                              And frankly, that is the real reason why students are missing. The fire
                              has died down, and no one is willing to blow into the dying embers to try
                              and get it going again, no one is willing to feed the fire with his/her
                              own time.

                              The other side isn't winning the war - we are losing it.

                              > And it would be *amazing* if we could get Lawrence Lessig to speak.

                              Have you read Larry's blog? http://www.lessig.org/blog/

                              Larry goes whereever he can, whereever he feels he can make a difference.
                              But he only goes where there is an active community that isn't
                              vendor-driven or product oriented. That is why you will find him at a
                              conference in Brazil or in a university in Germany, but rarely at a
                              conference that is effectively about something commercial (unless, of
                              course, he is involved professionally).

                              If you think that I get passionate about things, you need to meet Larry -
                              he is unbelievably focussed, and passionate about his causes. If you want
                              to see Larry at LB, then it would have to be because he believes (rightly)
                              that there is something to be achieved to further his causes, and that he
                              is addressing communities, not commercial entities who simply see him as a
                              way of attracting eyeballs.

                              I can't speak for him, but I can safely assume that if there is a
                              community, he will be inclined to come.

                              The same, I believe, applies to people like Linus, Alan Cox, Maddog Hall
                              and others.

                              I can also safely say this:

                              Unless the Indian FOSS community projects itself and highlights its own
                              work (instead of only coming to listen to foreign big names speak - the
                              janata entertainment that Biju referred to), there is little hope of India
                              ever being seen as a FOSS Superpower.

                              I again need to point everyone at my own article from years ago:

                              http://atulchitnis.net/diary/showentry/100

                              If you don't participate, the community dies.

                              Now how do we get that message out to the LUGs? How do we get that message
                              through to our own home LUGs?

                              Atul

                              --
                              -----------------------------------------
                              Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                              Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                              -----------------------------------------
                            • Arun Raghavan
                              Perhaps we could organize a pre-LB talk between the LUGs. On IRC might be cheaper, in person would be better. Something to discuss how we can use LB to bring
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 8, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Perhaps we could organize a pre-LB talk between the LUGs. On IRC might
                                be cheaper, in person would be better. Something to discuss how we can
                                use LB to bring the community focus back to the forefront - on a
                                national level, rather than locally. Sort of figure a direction we
                                want to take, get more feedback/inputs on what is required to do this,
                                brainstorming, os forth. This needs to be done *now* if we want to be
                                ready with this for LB,

                                Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, anyone?
                                --
                                Arun Raghavan
                                (http://nemesis.accosted.net)
                                v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
                                e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
                              • sriramx_2000
                                ... coordinators ... argument!) - ... I d posted another mail last night with the subject Some disturbing feedback . Hopefully, that mail is indeed feedback,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 13, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In linux-bangalore-2005@yahoogroups.com, Atul Chitnis <mail@a...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Arun Raghavan wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I have a question - have we not been proactive enough in getting other
                                  > > ILUGs to participate? It would be nice to understand why we have so
                                  > > little participation from the other LUGs.
                                  >
                                  > We have invited LUGs every year, through personal mailto the
                                  coordinators
                                  > or (if no such address was available) via a mail to the list, and of
                                  > course by putting info on the site.
                                  >
                                  > And amazingly, people do come (there goes the distance/cost
                                  argument!) -
                                  > they just refuse to represent their LUGs/SIGs!
                                  >

                                  I'd posted another mail last night with the subject "Some disturbing
                                  feedback".
                                  Hopefully, that mail is indeed feedback, and could help us examine our
                                  positioning ?

                                  I see LB this year (and from now on) to be
                                  - A meeting ground for various FLOSS communities (Linux, BSD, Java,
                                  .NET, Apache, Eclipse,
                                  Agile Programming)
                                  - We talk about who we each are
                                  - We explicitly state our problems (motivating people, staying
                                  motivated, not knowing how to push FLOSS in our local community and
                                  area of influence) etc.
                                  - We talk about success stories, and on going efforts (straight facts
                                  without
                                  any sugar coating - after all, who are we fooling ?)
                                  - We seek advice on our problems and find out how others have
                                  addressed these problems.

                                  Are my assumptions about LB 2005 correct ?

                                  > Even if there isnt a big contingent from each LUG (like we have from
                                  Goa
                                  > every year)- it would be fantastic if the coordinators of each LUG
                                  (or the
                                  > appointed representatives, which could be members empowered by the
                                  LUG to
                                  > speak on the LUG's behalf) could have a sort of national round-table
                                  > conference at the event, where they can discuss their issues, their
                                  > experiences, their solutions and their recommendations.
                                  >

                                  I volunteer to represent NashLUG, Nashik (Maharashtra). I'd attended
                                  LB 2004, but had no clue on what to expect there.

                                  Second, I thought - at that time - that this was an event that
                                  Bangalore's LUG had organized and that they'd invited speakers from
                                  all over, etc. When I saw the ILUG-Goa Stall, I'd assumed next that
                                  perhaps Fredrick Noronha does things in style (!).

                                  I see now that the next LB meet is being positioned as a platform for
                                  various FLOSS communities from all over India to meet, speak, learn
                                  from each other, and work unitedly. If this was the message last year
                                  too, I didn't get it.

                                  [snip]

                                  > The same person who made the earlier statement also admits that he felt
                                  > that the community spirit no longer existed, and without it he
                                  personlly
                                  > lost interest.
                                  >
                                  > I agree with him, because I felt the same thing in my home LUG.
                                  >
                                  > The difference between what a LUG meet used to be and what a (say)
                                  Java or
                                  > C# users group meet is today is drastic. The latter are typically cold,
                                  > sterile, focussed on personal or corporate needs, while the former was
                                  > about working together, a community spirit that was about achieving
                                  > something as a movement, crossing social and commercial borders.
                                  >
                                  > There is a crying need to bring that spirit back before it is
                                  completely
                                  > gone, effectively taking away that one factor that the MS marketing
                                  > department could never counter. In effect - no community, and we
                                  have lost
                                  > the war.
                                  >

                                  A lot of us next generation LUG members are clueless on how to build a
                                  community.
                                  I just recalled that there's a User group howto on tldp, I'll go look
                                  at that.

                                  Your talk last year on China, and the need for innovation was
                                  certainly simulating.
                                  I was especially proud to be one of two people in the room who raised
                                  their hands when
                                  you'd asked "How may work on something that has never been done before ?".

                                  We need more such talks, and all you experienced folks need to keep
                                  talking so that
                                  the word spreads.

                                  In Nashik, I talk to lots of young folks on Linux, and on Object
                                  Oriented Programming.
                                  If I manage to wow even _one_ person, I consider the entire academic
                                  year's efforts to have
                                  been worth all the effort.

                                  Maybe it's the territorial nature (states, languages, etc) that makes
                                  folks believing that they
                                  may not be welcome somewhere. I myself thought so until I noticed
                                  folks like Devdas Bhagat and

                                  > "Sharing" is a social concept, not a commercial one - whether
                                  sharing of
                                  > software, ideas, knowledge or just resources. "Community" is a social
                                  > concept too, so the very core of FOSS (shared development, shared
                                  efforts,
                                  > shared resources) is based on the community spirit.
                                  >
                                  > Which brings me to your next point:
                                  >
                                  > > And can we have an Ideology track for
                                  > > Copyleft/Evangelism/CreativeCommons/$cause? Right now, I guess the
                                  > > firebrands have to catch people in the halls and splash them with
                                  holy
                                  > > water on an informal basis. This way, we could have more focussed
                                  > > discussion of these things. Besides, it would introduce a healthy
                                  amount
                                  > > of yelling and screaming and (dare I dream) blood and mutilation (I'm
                                  > > thinking bring-your-own-cleavers here).
                                  >
                                  > Every year, we have had a "community track" which was meant to be
                                  > *precisely* what you talk about. But what's the point of throwing a
                                  party
                                  > if nobody comes? While every track overflowed with talk proposals, the
                                  > community track was left hanging. In fact, other than Sudhakar "Thaths"
                                  > Chandrasekharan's talk in 2003, I don't recall a single social or
                                  > community oriented talk. Sure, there were the obligatory "how to run a
                                  > FOSS project"talks, which do have their place, but those are
                                  certainly not
                                  > "community" talks.
                                  >

                                  What, then, is a community talk ? I wish to know this _right away_,
                                  because
                                  I'm motivated enough to drive activity in my LUG. I prefer working
                                  with the
                                  student community, but I see that most students "grow up", get busy
                                  with work,
                                  and then lose interest in community activities.

                                  If your talk last year on "China, and the need of India to innovate"
                                  was community talk,
                                  then we need more talks and discussions like that.

                                  > And frankly, that is the real reason why students are missing. The fire
                                  > has died down, and no one is willing to blow into the dying embers
                                  to try
                                  > and get it going again, no one is willing to feed the fire with his/her
                                  > own time.
                                  >

                                  Ack. I've seen this happen in my LUG. And unfortunately, some of us
                                  here have
                                  learnt the bitter lesson that "Free things have no value".
                                  Free as in free support, free lectures, free CDs.

                                  If there's something wrong with what we're doing, I'd like to know
                                  what it is.

                                  [snip]

                                  > Unless the Indian FOSS community projects itself and highlights its own
                                  > work (instead of only coming to listen to foreign big names speak - the
                                  > janata entertainment that Biju referred to), there is little hope of
                                  India
                                  > ever being seen as a FOSS Superpower.
                                  >

                                  Hmm. Ack. There are some products that I've worked on which I'm trying
                                  to get
                                  my company to release under the Apache License. Perhaps I could talk
                                  of my experiences
                                  at the LB meet ?

                                  > I again need to point everyone at my own article from years ago:
                                  >
                                  > http://atulchitnis.net/diary/showentry/100
                                  >
                                  > If you don't participate, the community dies.
                                  >
                                  > Now how do we get that message out to the LUGs? How do we get that
                                  message
                                  > through to our own home LUGs?
                                  >

                                  How about assuming that there are lots of LUGs out there that contain
                                  fresh minds
                                  and then telling us all what LB 2005 is, and how we all need to take
                                  advantage of
                                  the platform that the LB team wants to provide us with ?


                                  > Atul
                                  >

                                  -- Sriram
                                • Atul Chitnis
                                  Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this list or about the discussions going on here:
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this list
                                    or about the discussions going on here:

                                    http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020876.html

                                    If there is someone from Mumbai here (Karunakar, Philip?) maybe you could
                                    bring your fellow lug-mates uptodate and get them involved?

                                    Thanks!

                                    Atul

                                    --
                                    -----------------------------------------
                                    Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                                    Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                                    -----------------------------------------
                                  • Atul Chitnis
                                    Dear all, The 7 days that I had arbitrarily laid down to form the basis for further discussions have now finished. Going through this humongous thread, I find
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear all,

                                      The 7 days that I had arbitrarily laid down to form the basis for further
                                      discussions have now finished.

                                      Going through this humongous thread, I find that there are several clear
                                      subjects that need discussion, so I am now going to break this thread into
                                      several separate ones - one for each subject. This will help keep things
                                      more focussed.

                                      The subjects that I have identified are:

                                      - Conference Formats

                                      - Conference Facilities

                                      - Community/LUGs/SIGs involvement

                                      - Student/Colleges involvement

                                      Did I miss any? I am sure I have, so feel free to start a separate thread
                                      for any subject that you feel needs discussion as well.

                                      Many thanks for all your inputs/suggestions/etc so far.


                                      Atul



                                      --
                                      -----------------------------------------
                                      Atul Chitnis | mail@...
                                      Bangalore, India | http://atulchitnis.net
                                      -----------------------------------------
                                    • Sriram N
                                      ... I took the liberty to writing in to the ILUG-Mumbai list (http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020889.html) However, I think a
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- Atul Chitnis <mail@...> wrote:

                                        > Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this list
                                        > or about the discussions going on here:
                                        >
                                        > http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020876.html
                                        >
                                        > If there is someone from Mumbai here (Karunakar, Philip?) maybe you could
                                        > bring your fellow lug-mates uptodate and get them involved?
                                        >

                                        I took the liberty to writing in to the ILUG-Mumbai list
                                        (http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020889.html)

                                        However, I think a whole lot of people and LUGs from all over India would
                                        really benefit from an announcement about "Linux Bangalore 2005".
                                        > Thanks!
                                        >
                                        > Atul
                                        >
                                        > --

                                        -- Sriram



                                        ____________________________________________________
                                        Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                                        http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                      • Devdas Bhagat
                                        ... You missed one important one: Target Audience Everything else depends on this. Almost all input from me was for a highly technical audience. Devdas Bhagat
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On 15/07/05 17:26 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote:
                                          > Dear all,
                                          >
                                          > The 7 days that I had arbitrarily laid down to form the basis for further
                                          > discussions have now finished.
                                          >
                                          > Going through this humongous thread, I find that there are several clear
                                          > subjects that need discussion, so I am now going to break this thread into
                                          > several separate ones - one for each subject. This will help keep things
                                          > more focussed.
                                          >
                                          > The subjects that I have identified are:
                                          >
                                          > - Conference Formats
                                          >
                                          > - Conference Facilities
                                          >
                                          > - Community/LUGs/SIGs involvement
                                          >
                                          > - Student/Colleges involvement
                                          >
                                          > Did I miss any? I am sure I have, so feel free to start a separate thread
                                          > for any subject that you feel needs discussion as well.

                                          You missed one important one:

                                          Target Audience

                                          Everything else depends on this. Almost all input from me was for a
                                          highly technical audience.

                                          Devdas Bhagat
                                        • Guntupalli Karunakar
                                          On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:14:56 +0530 (IST) ... No longer in Mumbai these days, but the thing is GLUG activies there have been low except for monthly LUG meet if
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 15, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:14:56 +0530 (IST)
                                            Atul Chitnis <mail@...> wrote:

                                            > Apparently no one at Mumbai has heard about the event or about this
                                            > list or about the discussions going on here:
                                            >
                                            > http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/pipermail/linuxers/Week-of-Mon-20050711/020876.html
                                            >
                                            > If there is someone from Mumbai here (Karunakar, Philip?) maybe you
                                            > could bring your fellow lug-mates uptodate and get them involved?
                                            >
                                            No longer in Mumbai these days, but the thing is GLUG activies there
                                            have been low except for monthly LUG meet if someone is taking the
                                            pains to call and organize one, or a occasional talk event at some
                                            college.

                                            I think there needs to be a rethink on LUG concept, activities etc.
                                            barring a handful of LUGS which have some kind of physical activity,
                                            i guess most LUGs are list only type, with a common set of
                                            subscribers (myself included!), though there maybe many more which
                                            are low profile or not widely known on net.

                                            Karunakar

                                            --

                                            *************************************
                                            * Work: http://www.indlinux.org *
                                            * Blog: http://cartoonsoft.com/blog *
                                            *************************************
                                          • Jins Thomas
                                            Hi all i am jins thomas from bangalore itself. I am some what a beginnerto the world of linux ( 6 months) I am getting inspired alot by the mails of this yahoo
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 16, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi all
                                              i am jins thomas from bangalore itself. I am some what a beginnerto the
                                              world of linux ( 6 months)
                                              I am getting inspired alot by the mails of this yahoo group. and often
                                              getting confused on what all ways i can contribute.. I am sure many of the
                                              begineers of this group may be having a feeling..

                                              Would any body like Atul, or any of the veterans of this yahoo groups share
                                              how the new commers can contribute in the organizing part of this GREAT
                                              EVENT..


                                              Regards
                                              jins thomas




















                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: linux-bangalore-2005@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:linux-bangalore-2005@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Atul Chitnis
                                              Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 1:37 PM
                                              To: Linux Bangalore/2005
                                              Subject: [lb/2005] The next 7 days...


                                              All:

                                              The next seven days are going to be crucial to some of the plans being now
                                              carved in stone for the event.

                                              We have looked at the suggestions and comments made so far, plus the tons
                                              of private email that we have received with even more suggestions, but
                                              when you see the final plans, you will clearly see your recommendations
                                              and suggestions there.

                                              Here is what we need now:

                                              More.

                                              More suggestions from you, more recommendations, more comments. They are
                                              literally the bricks that we are using to build this house - without them,
                                              we will have gaping holes - and windows - that problems can creep through.
                                              (If that sounds familiar to you, don't blame me :) More involvement, more
                                              willingness to make things happen.

                                              Some ideas to discuss:

                                              - What will work better: a few halls that seat 1000 people at a time and
                                              have a guy speaking, or many midd-to-small sized halls that allow many
                                              topics to be discussed?

                                              - Special Interest Groups: what kind of groups (say Gentoo, debian,
                                              Fedora, Gnome, KDE, Education, User Groups, Indic/localization), and would
                                              these groups be able to set their own agendas, keeping focus tight, and
                                              not duplicate stuff from other SIGs?

                                              - Topics: Advanced, or newbie tutorials as well? Developer only, or admin,
                                              user etc. topics as well?

                                              - Community: What would make LUGs participate more actively, so that the
                                              world can see them? What would get them talking to each other at a
                                              non-political level? What would get them sharing ideas, discuss issues,
                                              work out solutions? Directions for the community (and - echoing the
                                              comments of one person in private email - is there a community, or have we
                                              allowed the vendors to take over?)

                                              - "Non-Linux": Our event is about Free and open source Software, not a
                                              single product. Sure, Linux is a great posterchild, but Linux isn't the
                                              only FOSS thing out there (despite some vendors trying their damnest to
                                              make the world believe that). So how do we get the non-Linux projects to
                                              get involved? How do we get our *BSD colleagues to consider this their
                                              event as well? The FOSS-on-Windows people? The OpenOffice people? The
                                              FOSS-on-OSX people? The PPP (Perl/PHP/Python) people?

                                              - Education and Government: What are the issues that need to be addressed?
                                              The Indian Government is committed to FOSS, how do we help them take
                                              things forward? How do we fix the problem of vendors getting their
                                              products into the educational curriculum? How could the government and
                                              academia get involved at our event to get their issues addressed?

                                              - Formats: Speaker+audience only, or discussion groups as well?

                                              - Anything that doesnt seem to ever get addressed, but needs to be?

                                              These are just samples - feel free to add any more topics.

                                              Anything relevant will get considered, and if we can fit it into the
                                              event, we will. Provided you tell us about it, of course.

                                              This is a Free and Open Source event - it can't happen if you don't get
                                              involved (just like every other FOSS project).

                                              To discuss these and more, get onto the mailing list:

                                              linux-bangalore-2005-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                              or

                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/join

                                              Read what has been previously discussed:

                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/messages

                                              Have your say. Build your event.

                                              In a few days the event announcement and the call for participation will
                                              go out - at that time, we need to know what we should use as selection
                                              criteria.

                                              Please spread the word - on your mailing lists, in your forums, in your
                                              oganisations. Get involved, get people involved.

                                              Believe me, when you see what we are building up here, you will kick
                                              yourself if you don't get your say in *now*.

                                              Think Woodstock, think revolution, think change the world.

                                              It's time for something new - and you are the one who can build it. Let's
                                              show the world how to do it right.

                                              Consider this the world's largest building block set - and you get to
                                              place your pieces in it to build something tremendous.

                                              Atul

                                              p.s. We would appreciate it if you leave your politician hats at home - we
                                              are trying to build here. Please come to the discussion with a positive
                                              frame of mind. If your dog bit you this morning, maybe you should take
                                              a day to cool off first - don't take it out on the list. :)

                                              If you need to offer criticism, make sure that your suggestion for an
                                              alternative is in the same message. No 100% negatives, please. In the
                                              closed source world, bug reports are "I used your product, and here is a
                                              bug". In the FOSS world it is "I used your product, here is a bug I found,
                                              and here is a patch/fix/suggestion".

                                              The rules of the list follow the FOSS world.





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