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Re: POLYGRAPH TESTS

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  • ofc129
    I m not sure of our current policy here (we recently hired our own in- house examiner instead of contracting out), but the old contract signed by those taking
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2002
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      I'm not sure of our current policy here (we recently hired our own in-
      house examiner instead of contracting out), but the old contract
      signed by those taking a polygraph didn't include such a caveat. I
      would imagine that's because the tape is worth only the paper it's
      printed on to anyone other than the original polygraph examiner. A
      person is not considered "truthful" or "deceptive" merely on what
      squiggles show up. I don't know why you would want anyone else to
      look at the tape, but be wary. There are some very good and some
      very bad examiners out there; it's as much subjective as objective
      and the test is only as good as the examiner giving it (why do you
      think it isn't allowed in a court of law?). If someone tells you
      they can see the tape alone and tell you if the person was lying or
      not, you should be suspect of their skills as an examiner.

      Kristen

      --- In forensic-science@y..., "vanyant" <vanyant@y...> wrote:
      > i am usure if this is the correct forum but here goes,
      > I need some help, there is a case in which polygraph tests were
      taken
      > of two murder suspects. no charges were filed against the two
      > subjects,however ~~ Detectives in the case had them sign a waiver
      of
      > sorts forbidding the actual tape, the results were recorded on,
      from
      > being seen by anyone else. is anyone familiar with this procedure?
      > and in what circumstances would this be used?
      > we need to get the actual tape to have an outside party look at it
      > but we are unsure of how to get it released to us
      > can somebody help?
    • gifofpolice@aol.com
      I got a story about the polygraph to tell you... I just took my second polygraph test today for a position of police officer. I am told that they have only a
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2002
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        I got a story about the polygraph to tell you...

        I just took my second polygraph test today for a position of police officer.
        I am told that they have only a 50 % accuracy which is why they are not
        allowed on a court of law. So... we don't allow them for criminals but we
        allow them for law abiding citizens, yet 50% inaccuracy. That means {think
        about it} out of that 50% that some of those are honest people who are called
        liars, and the rest are pathological liars who become police officers.

        And when you go into that room to take the test (which is unconsitutional)
        you as a future police officer, have to give up your constitutional rights in
        order to protect the constitutional rights of others (mainly criminals). And
        let me say this, I have never been arrested, have been a law abiding citizen
        all my life to a fault that police officers actually make fun of me, YET! I
        felt like I had to apologize for my law-abiding behavior today. I felt like I
        had to make something up in order for them to believe me. This is not a joke.
        And he tells me "I can see that you are having problems with some of these
        questions {I AM?} and you know which ones they are. {I DO?} I am going to
        leave and I want you to check off those you are having problems with.
        Okay.... let's see. Do you or have you ever done drugs? No Sell drugs? no
        Gambling problem? no make any false insurance claim? no steal? no pay for
        sex? no any part of a revolution? no He comes back in. You didn't check off
        any of the questions. DUH We do the test again. Do you feel you did better
        this time? {How the **** am I suppose to know. I just answered the
        questions.}

        And they keep harassing you.... you mean to tell me you've never been
        violent? never hit anyone? throw anything at anyone? never scratched a car
        with your keys? never did esctasy? cocaine? never been arrested? any motor
        vehicle violations you didn't tell us about? YO (youthful offender)? AR
        (accelerated rehab) ? you know he says ... the chief doesn't expect an
        angel... just be honest. {{{{{GEE I WAS}}}}}}}

        ~donna
        --------
        In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

        The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about
        our short-comings besides piss and moan.
        ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

        The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
        sees with his heart.
        ~unknown

        A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
        ~donna

        A right without a remedy is no right at all.
        ~old law

        Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
        ~donna


        I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
        ~donna

        Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
        ~unknown

        I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
        ~unknown

        http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
        ---------
        When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
        one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
        responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
        may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
        Were we truly men of courage....
        Were we truly men of judgment....
        Were we truly men of integrity....
        Were we truly men of dedication?
        ~John F. Kennedy
        <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G.F. Phillips
        Hello Donna This is science gone mad. It could end up with a potential police officer barred from service and a convicted criminal actually being innocent.
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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          Hello Donna
          This is science gone mad. It could end up with a potential police officer
          barred from service and a convicted criminal actually being innocent. My
          God 50% accuracy. Best to be a shopkeeper I think.
          Best
          Gerald
          (London, England)
          -----Original Message-----
          From: gifofpolice@... <gifofpolice@...>
          To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: 02 April 2002 17:11
          Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: POLYGRAPH TESTS


          >I got a story about the polygraph to tell you...
          >
          >I just took my second polygraph test today for a position of police
          officer.
          >I am told that they have only a 50 % accuracy which is why they are not
          >allowed on a court of law. So... we don't allow them for criminals but we
          >allow them for law abiding citizens, yet 50% inaccuracy. That means {think
          >about it} out of that 50% that some of those are honest people who are
          called
          >liars, and the rest are pathological liars who become police officers.
          >
          >And when you go into that room to take the test (which is unconsitutional)
          >you as a future police officer, have to give up your constitutional rights
          in
          >order to protect the constitutional rights of others (mainly criminals).
          And
          >let me say this, I have never been arrested, have been a law abiding
          citizen
          >all my life to a fault that police officers actually make fun of me, YET! I
          >felt like I had to apologize for my law-abiding behavior today. I felt like
          I
          >had to make something up in order for them to believe me. This is not a
          joke.
          >And he tells me "I can see that you are having problems with some of these
          >questions {I AM?} and you know which ones they are. {I DO?} I am going to
          >leave and I want you to check off those you are having problems with.
          >Okay.... let's see. Do you or have you ever done drugs? No Sell drugs? no
          >Gambling problem? no make any false insurance claim? no steal? no pay for
          >sex? no any part of a revolution? no He comes back in. You didn't check off
          >any of the questions. DUH We do the test again. Do you feel you did better
          >this time? {How the **** am I suppose to know. I just answered the
          >questions.}
          >
          >And they keep harassing you.... you mean to tell me you've never been
          >violent? never hit anyone? throw anything at anyone? never scratched a car
          >with your keys? never did esctasy? cocaine? never been arrested? any motor
          >vehicle violations you didn't tell us about? YO (youthful offender)? AR
          >(accelerated rehab) ? you know he says ... the chief doesn't expect an
          >angel... just be honest. {{{{{GEE I WAS}}}}}}}
          >
          >~donna
          >--------
          >In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.
          >
          >The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something
          about
          >our short-comings besides piss and moan.
          >~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)
          >
          >The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
          >sees with his heart.
          >~unknown
          >
          >A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
          >~donna
          >
          >A right without a remedy is no right at all.
          >~old law
          >
          >Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
          >~donna
          >
          >
          >I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
          >~donna
          >
          >Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
          >~unknown
          >
          >I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
          >~unknown
          >
          >http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
          >---------
          >When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
          >one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
          >responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
          >may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
          >Were we truly men of courage....
          >Were we truly men of judgment....
          >Were we truly men of integrity....
          >Were we truly men of dedication?
          > ~John F. Kennedy
          > <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic
          Nation</A>
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >To subscribe send a blank e-mail to:
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          >To unsubscribe send a blank e-mail to:
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          >
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          >
          >
        • gifofpolice@aol.com
          In a message dated 4/2/2002 11:31:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Exactly Gerald. However, the criminal gets the better deal. Because of the whopper 50%
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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            In a message dated 4/2/2002 11:31:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            gfp.jutta@... writes:


            > Hello Donna
            > This is science gone mad. It could end up with a potential police officer
            > barred from service and a convicted criminal actually being innocent. My
            > God 50% accuracy. Best to be a shopkeeper I think.
            > Best
            > Gerald
            >
            --------
            Exactly Gerald. However, the criminal gets the better deal. Because of the
            whopper 50% inaccuracy, they are not allowed in a court of law. They only
            allow it to rule out police officers. But! It means that out of that 50%
            there are many who become police officers who are pathological liars. There
            are those who make it and become like Denzel Washington in the movie Training
            Day. Scary. The corruption level that exists of police officers shows that
            something is wrong with the system in the way they choose police officers.
            Hell, I have police officer friends who make fun of me because I am
            law-abiding to a fault. And people know that police officers are corrupt, and
            at the very least don't abide by the smaller laws such as drinking and
            driving and speeding. So they lose respect and think if they don't obey the
            laws why should we?

            ~donna
            --------
            In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

            The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about
            our short-comings besides piss and moan.
            ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

            The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
            sees with his heart.
            ~unknown

            A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
            ~donna

            A right without a remedy is no right at all.
            ~old law

            Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
            ~donna


            I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
            ~donna

            Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
            ~unknown

            I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
            ~unknown

            http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
            ---------
            When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
            one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
            responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
            may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
            Were we truly men of courage....
            Were we truly men of judgment....
            Were we truly men of integrity....
            Were we truly men of dedication?
            ~John F. Kennedy
            <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ofc129
            Donna, if you have such disrespect for police officers, then why do you want to be one? And please show me hard data to back up your 50% . Like I said
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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              Donna, if you have such disrespect for police officers, then why do
              you want to be one? And please show me hard data to back up
              your "50%". Like I said before, a polygraph is as much about the
              interview as it is what that machine spits out. Did you ever think
              that maybe it's just another interview you have to pass in order to
              become a police officer? To see how you react under only a slight
              amount of stress? If this is how you responded, I would hate to see
              you in the middle of an actual high-stress event. Guess what? Maybe
              they ask you those questions to see how you react to them. Do you
              get defensive when someone gets a little in your face? Not good for
              an officer. I was asked some of the same things when I took mine and
              didn't get defensive, only mildly befuddled, and answered
              truthfully, "No sir, I can't think of why I would show deception on
              anything." It's a mind game, and you lost. They don't turn down
              anybody based on just a polygraph test, it's based on a bigger
              picture. Your criminal history, interviews with neighbors, etc. will
              reveal any proclivity towards criminal behavior. Your reaction under
              stress, however, will show if you have the personality and demeanor
              it takes to be a police officer. You can have a spot-free past but
              if you get bent out of shape over a polygraph, I certainly don't want
              you next to me when the s**t hits the fan. Sorry to be pissy, but it
              irks me to no end when civilians who have never put their ass on the
              line for anybody, let alone strangers they may not even like, pass
              judgment on the men and women who are out there everyday so you can
              talk smack. Nobody said we were perfect; nobody said we were
              superheroes. We're everyday, ordinary people often called upon to do
              extraordinary things. I love my job and wouldn't trade it for the
              world...law enforcement is something that gets in your blood and you
              can't get out. If you don't feel that way (and I have to suspect you
              don't, based on your last two posts), it's not for you.

              Kristen
            • ofc129
              Oh, and by the way...it is NOT unconstitutional for you to be required to take a polygraph in order to be hired as a police officer. Kristen
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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                Oh, and by the way...it is NOT unconstitutional for you to be
                required to take a polygraph in order to be hired as a police officer.

                Kristen
              • gifofpolice@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/2/2002 2:19:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It violates our Consitiutional rights. A polygrapher admitted it. You have a right to remain
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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                  In a message dated 4/2/2002 2:19:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  ofc129@... writes:


                  >
                  > Oh, and by the way...it is NOT unconstitutional for you to be
                  > required to take a polygraph in order to be hired as a police officer.
                  >
                  > Kristen
                  >

                  It violates our Consitiutional rights. A polygrapher admitted it. You have a
                  right to remain silent (Fifth Amendment) you have a right to an attorney
                  (Sixth) you have a right to due process (Fifth Fourteenth) and equal
                  protection under the law (criminals polys are not accepted as fact, but ours
                  are, they can refuse, we can't). The only way they get away with it is they
                  tell you that you can leave at any time. Yeah... and not get the job. What
                  was your most unusual sex act. Let's see... right to privacy... what is that
                  Fourth Amendment. Like it's any of their business? If it's not illegal why is
                  it any of their business? And they already asked me a few months ago, and
                  they ask me again... what was your most unusal sex act since we spoke to you
                  two months ago. Do you masterbate? They have my driving record, and yet they
                  still ask. Were you truthfuyl about your driving record. Listen, look it up.
                  If it's not there, it didn't happen. Stop harassing me about something that
                  doesn't nor ever exist. I get insulted when someone keeps harping on my damn
                  integrity.

                  And you tell me, when they got frustrated enuf when doing my background
                  check, you tell me why and for what reason did they ask if I date men?
                  Because I am picky and also very busy I, seldom date so now you are going to
                  accuse me of being gay? What if I was? That is none of their business. I
                  laugh about it, but if I was gay, it would not be so funny.
                  ~donna
                  --------
                  In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

                  The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about
                  our short-comings besides piss and moan.
                  ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

                  The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
                  sees with his heart.
                  ~unknown

                  A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
                  ~donna

                  A right without a remedy is no right at all.
                  ~old law

                  Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
                  ~donna


                  I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
                  ~donna

                  Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
                  ~unknown

                  I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
                  ~unknown

                  http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
                  ---------
                  When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
                  one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
                  responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
                  may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
                  Were we truly men of courage....
                  Were we truly men of judgment....
                  Were we truly men of integrity....
                  Were we truly men of dedication?
                  ~John F. Kennedy
                  <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • gifofpolice@aol.com
                  In a message dated 4/2/2002 2:14:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It was told to me by a former polygrapher that it is 50% innacurate. At the ... Who said I
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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                    In a message dated 4/2/2002 2:14:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    ofc129@... writes:


                    >
                    > Donna, if you have such disrespect for police officers, then why do you
                    > want to be one? And please show me hard data to back up your "50%". Like
                    > I said before, a polygraph is as much about the interview as it is what
                    > that machine spits out. Did you ever think that maybe it's just another
                    > interview you have to pass in order to
                    > become a police officer? To see how you react under only a slight
                    > amount of stress? If this is how you responded, I would hate to see
                    > you in the middle of an actual high-stress event. Guess what? Maybe
                    > they ask you those questions to see how you react to them. Do you
                    > get defensive when someone gets a little in your face? Not good for
                    > an officer. I was asked some of the same things when I took mine and
                    > didn't get defensive, only mildly befuddled, and answered
                    > truthfully, "No sir, I can't think of why I would show deception on
                    > anything." It's a mind game, and you lost. They don't turn down
                    > anybody based on just a polygraph test, it's based on a bigger
                    > picture. Your criminal history, interviews with neighbors, etc. will
                    > reveal any proclivity towards criminal behavior. Your reaction under
                    > stress, however, will show if you have the personality and demeanor
                    > it takes to be a police officer. You can have a spot-free past but
                    > if you get bent out of shape over a polygraph, I certainly don't want
                    > you next to me when the s**t hits the fan. Sorry to be pissy, but it
                    > irks me to no end when civilians who have never put their ass on the
                    > line for anybody, let alone strangers they may not even like, pass
                    > judgment on the men and women who are out there everyday so you can
                    > talk smack. Nobody said we were perfect; nobody said we were
                    > superheroes. We're everyday, ordinary people often called upon to do
                    > extraordinary things. I love my job and wouldn't trade it for the
                    > world...law enforcement is something that gets in your blood and you
                    > can't get out. If you don't feel that way (and I have to suspect you
                    > don't, based on your last two posts), it's not for you.
                    >
                    > Kristen
                    > -----
                    > Kirsten,
                    >
                    > Look who's getting all huffy. What bug got up YOUR ass today?

                    It was told to me by a former polygrapher that it is 50% innacurate. At the
                    > went up to 60% according to the sheet they have you read
                    > beforehand.

                    Who said I have such disrespect for police officers? What did I say that made
                    you defensive and feel you had to accuse me of talking smack? I said my
                    police officer friends make fun of me. My father was an MP in the army, my
                    > officers most of my life, as
                    > they have a base line of integrity that I require in the person I am
                    > seeing, and they also have (most) a great sense of humor, and like the same
                    > activities that I like, the same interests etc. I have been dating a police
                    > officer for the last 2 1/2 years. He warned me before hand. It will be the
                    > worst psychological trauma you will have ever experienced in your life and
                    > you will feel as if you were sexually assaulted.
                    >
                    > Oh here's how I reacted as you say bent out of shape ... the interviewer
                    > handed me a box of tissue and said spill it out... that's what the
                    > interview is all about. I was looking at him like ok he's joking right?
                    > ...... what am I suppose to spill out? I have nothing to tell him.

                    If as you say, they are expecting me to react under stress, he was highly
                    > disappointed. If "what" is how I responded Kirsten? You are creating a scene
                    > that never existed. He offered me the tissues, and I just looked at him.
                    > When he asked me how do I feel I did, what the heck am I suppose to say to
                    > that? I answered his questions. And that's what I told him. Period.
                    >
                    And like I said... he said I can see you are having a problem on some of the
                    > questions (I am? (I am thinking to myself) and you know what they are (I do?
                    > to myself) Then he said I am going to leave and I want you to check off the
                    > ones you are having a problem with. He left. I look around the room. Dum
                    > dee dum... He comes back in. You didn't check anything off. No.... the
                    > chief doesn't want anyone who is an angel, he just wants you to be honest
                    > with him. Ok... Let's take the test again. Ok... (take test) Did you feel
                    > you did better? Huh? I say, confused. I don't know. I just answered the
                    > questions.

                    I don't know about you Kirsten, but I have a high caliber of honor and
                    integrity. I've worked on it all my life. You can't buy my love, nor my
                    integrity, and if I am NOT suppose to be pissed off about it being attacked
                    when I start thinking about it afterwards (after I left) then my integrity
                    and my honor cannot mean that much to me.

                    > Don't judge me Kirsten as to my sincerity and desire to become a police
                    > officer just because I feel we deserve the same Consitutional rights as
                    > everyone else.


                    ~donna
                    --------
                    In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

                    The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about
                    our short-comings besides piss and moan.
                    ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

                    The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
                    sees with his heart.
                    ~unknown

                    A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
                    ~donna

                    A right without a remedy is no right at all.
                    ~old law

                    Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
                    ~donna


                    I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
                    ~donna

                    Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
                    ~unknown

                    I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
                    ~unknown

                    http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
                    ---------
                    When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
                    one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
                    responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
                    may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
                    Were we truly men of courage....
                    Were we truly men of judgment....
                    Were we truly men of integrity....
                    Were we truly men of dedication?
                    ~John F. Kennedy
                    <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • J. T. Price
                    The problem is those who interpret the polygraphs and try to suggest they can determine the truth with such records. The only reason such methods are used,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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                      The problem is those who interpret the polygraphs and try to suggest they
                      can determine the "truth" with such records. The only reason such methods
                      are used, in spite of no data to support value of such methods, is because
                      the polygraph has intimidation value AND can be used to screen for those who
                      can fib convincingly and without reservation.

                      If one desires employees who can lie convincingly then polygraph screening
                      of potential employees might have utility. eg. "I have NEVER used the "N"
                      word".

                      As for someone objecting to a polygraph when applying for a law enforcement
                      job, it tells me they have some feeling for the right to privacy and respect
                      for that right. It also tells me they don't blindly accept something that
                      offends them. Perhaps these traits might alone disqualify the potential
                      employee?

                      As far as an acceptible "stress test", it might have the utility above but I
                      know of no studies suggesting a polygraph as a successful test of behavior
                      under stress. If such studies have been done I would like to look at them.

                      JTP

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: gifofpolice@... <gifofpolice@...>
                      To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 3:34 PM
                      Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: POLYGRAPH TESTS


                      In a message dated 4/2/2002 2:14:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      ofc129@... writes:


                      >
                      > Donna, if you have such disrespect for police officers, then why do you
                      > want to be one? And please show me hard data to back up your "50%". Like
                      > I said before, a polygraph is as much about the interview as it is what
                      > that machine spits out. Did you ever think that maybe it's just another
                      > interview you have to pass in order to
                      > become a police officer? To see how you react under only a slight
                      > amount of stress? If this is how you responded, I would hate to see
                      > you in the middle of an actual high-stress event. Guess what? Maybe
                      > they ask you those questions to see how you react to them. Do you
                      > get defensive when someone gets a little in your face? Not good for
                      > an officer. I was asked some of the same things when I took mine and
                      > didn't get defensive, only mildly befuddled, and answered
                      > truthfully, "No sir, I can't think of why I would show deception on
                      > anything." It's a mind game, and you lost. They don't turn down
                      > anybody based on just a polygraph test, it's based on a bigger
                      > picture. Your criminal history, interviews with neighbors, etc. will
                      > reveal any proclivity towards criminal behavior. Your reaction under
                      > stress, however, will show if you have the personality and demeanor
                      > it takes to be a police officer. You can have a spot-free past but
                      > if you get bent out of shape over a polygraph, I certainly don't want
                      > you next to me when the s**t hits the fan. Sorry to be pissy, but it
                      > irks me to no end when civilians who have never put their ass on the
                      > line for anybody, let alone strangers they may not even like, pass
                      > judgment on the men and women who are out there everyday so you can
                      > talk smack. Nobody said we were perfect; nobody said we were
                      > superheroes. We're everyday, ordinary people often called upon to do
                      > extraordinary things. I love my job and wouldn't trade it for the
                      > world...law enforcement is something that gets in your blood and you
                      > can't get out. If you don't feel that way (and I have to suspect you
                      > don't, based on your last two posts), it's not for you.
                      >
                      > Kristen
                      > -----
                      > Kirsten,
                      >
                      > Look who's getting all huffy. What bug got up YOUR ass today?

                      It was told to me by a former polygrapher that it is 50% innacurate. At the
                      > went up to 60% according to the sheet they have you read
                      > beforehand.

                      Who said I have such disrespect for police officers? What did I say that
                      made
                      you defensive and feel you had to accuse me of talking smack? I said my
                      police officer friends make fun of me. My father was an MP in the army, my
                      > officers most of my life, as
                      > they have a base line of integrity that I require in the person I am
                      > seeing, and they also have (most) a great sense of humor, and like the
                      same
                      > activities that I like, the same interests etc. I have been dating a
                      police
                      > officer for the last 2 1/2 years. He warned me before hand. It will be the
                      > worst psychological trauma you will have ever experienced in your life and
                      > you will feel as if you were sexually assaulted.
                      >
                      > Oh here's how I reacted as you say bent out of shape ... the interviewer
                      > handed me a box of tissue and said spill it out... that's what the
                      > interview is all about. I was looking at him like ok he's joking right?
                      > ...... what am I suppose to spill out? I have nothing to tell him.

                      If as you say, they are expecting me to react under stress, he was highly
                      > disappointed. If "what" is how I responded Kirsten? You are creating a
                      scene
                      > that never existed. He offered me the tissues, and I just looked at him.
                      > When he asked me how do I feel I did, what the heck am I suppose to say to
                      > that? I answered his questions. And that's what I told him. Period.
                      >
                      And like I said... he said I can see you are having a problem on some of the
                      > questions (I am? (I am thinking to myself) and you know what they are (I
                      do?
                      > to myself) Then he said I am going to leave and I want you to check off
                      the
                      > ones you are having a problem with. He left. I look around the room. Dum
                      > dee dum... He comes back in. You didn't check anything off. No.... the
                      > chief doesn't want anyone who is an angel, he just wants you to be honest
                      > with him. Ok... Let's take the test again. Ok... (take test) Did you feel
                      > you did better? Huh? I say, confused. I don't know. I just answered the
                      > questions.

                      I don't know about you Kirsten, but I have a high caliber of honor and
                      integrity. I've worked on it all my life. You can't buy my love, nor my
                      integrity, and if I am NOT suppose to be pissed off about it being attacked
                      when I start thinking about it afterwards (after I left) then my integrity
                      and my honor cannot mean that much to me.

                      > Don't judge me Kirsten as to my sincerity and desire to become a police
                      > officer just because I feel we deserve the same Consitutional rights as
                      > everyone else.


                      ~donna
                      --------
                      In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

                      The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about
                      our short-comings besides piss and moan.
                      ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

                      The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
                      sees with his heart.
                      ~unknown

                      A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
                      ~donna

                      A right without a remedy is no right at all.
                      ~old law

                      Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
                      ~donna


                      I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
                      ~donna

                      Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
                      ~unknown

                      I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
                      ~unknown

                      http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
                      ---------
                      When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
                      one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
                      responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
                      may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
                      Were we truly men of courage....
                      Were we truly men of judgment....
                      Were we truly men of integrity....
                      Were we truly men of dedication?
                      ~John F. Kennedy
                      <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • Robert Parsons
                      Donna, The polygraph is just a blind - smoke and mirrors. It s a make-believe tool used to try to coerce/scare you into telling the truth. If they can make
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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                        Donna,

                        The polygraph is just a blind - smoke and mirrors. It's a make-believe tool
                        used to try to coerce/scare you into telling the truth. If they can make
                        you believe they know when you are lying, then you will be less likely to
                        lie and more likely to be truthful. That's the theory they work with,
                        anyway. The real "instrument" that is of value in a polygraph test is the
                        interrogation skills of the interviewer, not the polygraph itself. The
                        cryptic comments about "having trouble with some of these questions" and
                        leaving the room while you "think about it" and "check off the ones you are
                        having trouble with" is a classic and rather obvious psychological ploy.
                        You're supposed to be rattled by it, which hopefully will make you reveal
                        the questions that you lied about. Otherwise they would have no idea which
                        ones those are because the polygraph machine doesn't work (although not all
                        of them realize that - some really think it works).

                        The entire theory on which the polygraph is supposed to operate has no
                        logical scientific basis. The things which are being measured (galvanic
                        skin response, pulse, respiration) are affected by so many different things
                        (physical and emotional) that there is no way anyone can conclusively link a
                        change in one of them to being specifically caused by the telling of a lie.
                        No such correlation is possible. It's a ridiculous proposition to anyone
                        who knows anything about human physiology - but as a psychological ploy to
                        use against those who are both dishonest and ignorant, it's a brilliant and
                        very useful ploy. Good interrogators can often use the stress it produces
                        to make a liar break down or at least contradict himself. Honest people
                        will understandably feel abused, but dishonest people are often revealed in
                        this way. It's far from foolproof though, as you pointed out - lots of room
                        for error and abuse.

                        Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                        Forensic Chemist


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: gifofpolice@... [mailto:gifofpolice@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 02:44
                        To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: POLYGRAPH TESTS


                        I got a story about the polygraph to tell you...

                        I just took my second polygraph test today for a position of police officer.

                        I am told that they have only a 50 % accuracy which is why they are not
                        allowed on a court of law. So... we don't allow them for criminals but we
                        allow them for law abiding citizens, yet 50% inaccuracy. That means {think
                        about it} out of that 50% that some of those are honest people who are
                        called
                        liars, and the rest are pathological liars who become police officers.

                        And when you go into that room to take the test (which is unconsitutional)
                        you as a future police officer, have to give up your constitutional rights
                        in
                        order to protect the constitutional rights of others (mainly criminals). And

                        let me say this, I have never been arrested, have been a law abiding citizen

                        all my life to a fault that police officers actually make fun of me, YET! I
                        felt like I had to apologize for my law-abiding behavior today. I felt like
                        I
                        had to make something up in order for them to believe me. This is not a
                        joke.
                        And he tells me "I can see that you are having problems with some of these
                        questions {I AM?} and you know which ones they are. {I DO?} I am going to
                        leave and I want you to check off those you are having problems with.
                        Okay.... let's see. Do you or have you ever done drugs? No Sell drugs? no
                        Gambling problem? no make any false insurance claim? no steal? no pay for
                        sex? no any part of a revolution? no He comes back in. You didn't check off
                        any of the questions. DUH We do the test again. Do you feel you did better
                        this time? {How the **** am I suppose to know. I just answered the
                        questions.}

                        And they keep harassing you.... you mean to tell me you've never been
                        violent? never hit anyone? throw anything at anyone? never scratched a car
                        with your keys? never did esctasy? cocaine? never been arrested? any motor
                        vehicle violations you didn't tell us about? YO (youthful offender)? AR
                        (accelerated rehab) ? you know he says ... the chief doesn't expect an
                        angel... just be honest. {{{{{GEE I WAS}}}}}}}

                        ~donna
                        --------
                        In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

                        The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about

                        our short-comings besides piss and moan.
                        ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

                        The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
                        sees with his heart.
                        ~unknown

                        A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
                        ~donna

                        A right without a remedy is no right at all.
                        ~old law

                        Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
                        ~donna


                        I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
                        ~donna

                        Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
                        ~unknown

                        I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
                        ~unknown

                        http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
                        ---------
                        When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
                        one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
                        responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
                        may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
                        Were we truly men of courage....
                        Were we truly men of judgment....
                        Were we truly men of integrity....
                        Were we truly men of dedication?
                        ~John F. Kennedy
                        <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                      • Robert Parsons
                        Donna, I share your low opinion of polygraph tests, but not of cops. There are corrupt ones to be sure, but most are honest, brave, hardworking public
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
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                          Donna,

                          I share your low opinion of polygraph tests, but not of cops. There are
                          corrupt ones to be sure, but most are honest, brave, hardworking public
                          servants trying to do the best they can for our society - and putting their
                          lives on the line to do it.

                          Kristin is right, though, while I have little good to say about polygraph
                          examinations it's not a constitutional violation to make them part of the
                          job application process. The right to an attorney and to remain silent are
                          rights guaranteed to those accused of crimes, not those applying for jobs.
                          They are in the Bill of Rights to prevent wrongful convictions, not wrongful
                          hiring decisions. You apply for a job voluntarily, no one forces you to, so
                          when you apply you voluntarily submit to the employer's screening practices.
                          If they offend you, you don't have to apply for the job. It's the same with
                          drug testing. The Supreme Court has ruled that employers have the right to
                          establish the minimum standards for hiring, and that a drug-free workplace
                          (or a police department that avoids hiring criminals) is an adequately
                          important public interest to outweigh the invasion of privacy involved.
                          Only employment discrimination based on race, religion, national origin, or
                          sex (and in some cases, age or disability) is illegal, and even that is not
                          due to the Constitution - it's due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and
                          later Federal laws. These are civil rights granted by statute, not a
                          Constitutional rights, and there are legal exceptions to them.

                          Since I know that polygraph tests are phony baloney, I would object to
                          taking one. If it were a mandatory prerequisite for a job I really wanted,
                          I would submit to it but would put on the record both my strenuous objection
                          to it and my complete disbelief in the reliability of the practice. Then if
                          they ask an irrelevant question about your private sexual practices or
                          something like that, you simply answer: "I decline to answer that question
                          on the grounds it is irrelevant to this job application and an unjustified
                          invasion of my privacy." Just refuse to answer such questions. They have a
                          right to polygraph you, and to ask about criminal behavior (e.g., drug use),
                          but not to ask about anything they want. They have no right to ask about
                          non-criminal behavior, except for things that could present a hazard to
                          doing your job (like alcoholism). Your private sexual practices don't fall
                          into that category. In fact, some of these kinds of questions are illegal
                          for an employer to ask about, but the specifics can vary from state to state
                          depending on local laws, so check with an attorney who specializes in
                          employment law for more information about the legal limits to such
                          questioning.

                          The sex questions they asked you were certainly outrageous and totally
                          irrelevant to your job application, and I'm sure they knew that when they
                          asked them. I suspect they did it for one of two reasons - to rattle you to
                          see how you handled it, or simply because they have dirty, voyeuristic
                          minds. They were definitely out of line, but please don't judge all law
                          enforcement by that one polygraph examiner or even by that one police
                          agency.


                          Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                          Forensic Chemist

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: gifofpolice@... [mailto:gifofpolice@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 15:50
                          To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: POLYGRAPH TESTS


                          In a message dated 4/2/2002 2:19:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                          ofc129@... writes:


                          >
                          > Oh, and by the way...it is NOT unconstitutional for you to be
                          > required to take a polygraph in order to be hired as a police officer.
                          >
                          > Kristen
                          >

                          It violates our Consitiutional rights. A polygrapher admitted it. You have a

                          right to remain silent (Fifth Amendment) you have a right to an attorney
                          (Sixth) you have a right to due process (Fifth Fourteenth) and equal
                          protection under the law (criminals polys are not accepted as fact, but ours

                          are, they can refuse, we can't). The only way they get away with it is they
                          tell you that you can leave at any time. Yeah... and not get the job. What
                          was your most unusual sex act. Let's see... right to privacy... what is that

                          Fourth Amendment. Like it's any of their business? If it's not illegal why
                          is
                          it any of their business? And they already asked me a few months ago, and
                          they ask me again... what was your most unusal sex act since we spoke to you

                          two months ago. Do you masterbate? They have my driving record, and yet they

                          still ask. Were you truthfuyl about your driving record. Listen, look it up.

                          If it's not there, it didn't happen. Stop harassing me about something that
                          doesn't nor ever exist. I get insulted when someone keeps harping on my damn

                          integrity.

                          And you tell me, when they got frustrated enuf when doing my background
                          check, you tell me why and for what reason did they ask if I date men?
                          Because I am picky and also very busy I, seldom date so now you are going to

                          accuse me of being gay? What if I was? That is none of their business. I
                          laugh about it, but if I was gay, it would not be so funny.
                          ~donna
                          --------
                          In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.

                          The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something about

                          our short-comings besides piss and moan.
                          ~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)

                          The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
                          sees with his heart.
                          ~unknown

                          A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
                          ~donna

                          A right without a remedy is no right at all.
                          ~old law

                          Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
                          ~donna


                          I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
                          ~donna

                          Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
                          ~unknown

                          I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
                          ~unknown

                          http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
                          ---------
                          When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
                          one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
                          responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
                          may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
                          Were we truly men of courage....
                          Were we truly men of judgment....
                          Were we truly men of integrity....
                          Were we truly men of dedication?
                          ~John F. Kennedy
                          <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic Nation</A>




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          To subscribe send a blank e-mail to:
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Robert Parsons
                          JT Price wrote, inter alia, If one desires employees who can lie convincingly then polygraph screening of potential employees might have utility. eg. I
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 2, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            JT Price wrote, inter alia,

                            "If one desires employees who can lie convincingly then polygraph screening
                            of potential employees might have utility. eg. 'I have NEVER used the "N"
                            word'."

                            Of course, semantics can be everything - the truth of that statement depends
                            on what is meant by "use the 'N' word." Not everyone has used that word to
                            refer to another human being. I have never used it that way. I was raised
                            to believe it was a terribly offensive and completely unacceptable racial
                            epithet, that it was used only by bigots, and that bigotry was both
                            ethically wrong and morally sinful. I have certainly used it in
                            conversation ABOUT bigotry, in discussing why its use is offensive and
                            unacceptable, but that use carries an entirely different significance. This
                            is another reason why polygraphs couldn't possibly be reliable even if their
                            working principle held any water (which it doesn't). There are too many
                            ways to interpret many of the questions that are asked. Only unambiguous
                            "yes or no" questions have any real potential for use in legitimate lie
                            detection, but we'll have to come up with something a lot better than the
                            polygraph to do even that.

                            BTW, JT, you made some very salient points in the rest of your commentary,
                            and I obviously share your disdain for polygraphy.

                            Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                            Forensic Chemist


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • G.F. Phillips
                            Hello Donna You make some very interesting points here. Here in England, because of a shortage of Police Officers, the Home Secretary is considering allowing
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 4, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Donna
                              You make some very interesting points here. Here in England, because of a
                              shortage of Police Officers, the Home Secretary is considering allowing
                              people with a criminal conviction to join the force. I tend to think that
                              this is a good idea. The condition is that it must not have involved
                              violence and the conviction is 'spent' Spent over here means that for most
                              offences if a person doesn't get into any more trouble then the conviction
                              is not considered relevant to most types of employment, after five years.
                              There is certainly a lot going on over here with people trying to come up
                              with initiatives for young offenders, early release fron prison and
                              declassifying cannabis. The declassification of Cannabis would mean that
                              possession is not an arrestable offfence and the person wouldn't end up in
                              court with a record. I think it is only a tiny step away from
                              legalization. The real aim is to get more police patrolling the streets.
                              I hope that this happens. Anyway hope all goes well for you.
                              Best
                              Gerald
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: gifofpolice@... <gifofpolice@...>
                              To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: 02 April 2002 19:10
                              Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: POLYGRAPH TESTS


                              >In a message dated 4/2/2002 11:31:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                              >gfp.jutta@... writes:
                              >
                              >
                              >> Hello Donna
                              >> This is science gone mad. It could end up with a potential police
                              officer
                              >> barred from service and a convicted criminal actually being innocent. My
                              >> God 50% accuracy. Best to be a shopkeeper I think.
                              >> Best
                              >> Gerald
                              >>
                              >--------
                              >Exactly Gerald. However, the criminal gets the better deal. Because of the
                              >whopper 50% inaccuracy, they are not allowed in a court of law. They only
                              >allow it to rule out police officers. But! It means that out of that 50%
                              >there are many who become police officers who are pathological liars. There
                              >are those who make it and become like Denzel Washington in the movie
                              Training
                              >Day. Scary. The corruption level that exists of police officers shows that
                              >something is wrong with the system in the way they choose police officers.
                              >Hell, I have police officer friends who make fun of me because I am
                              >law-abiding to a fault. And people know that police officers are corrupt,
                              and
                              >at the very least don't abide by the smaller laws such as drinking and
                              >driving and speeding. So they lose respect and think if they don't obey the
                              >laws why should we?
                              >
                              >~donna
                              >--------
                              >In God we trust. Everyone else is a suspect.
                              >
                              >The way I look at it, as long as we have breath, we gotta do something
                              about
                              >our short-comings besides piss and moan.
                              >~NYPD Blues (Detective Bobby Simone)
                              >
                              >The measure of a man is not how far he sees with his eyes, but how far he
                              >sees with his heart.
                              >~unknown
                              >
                              >A man is only as good as his word. My word is bond. Is yours?
                              >~donna
                              >
                              >A right without a remedy is no right at all.
                              >~old law
                              >
                              >Writing Amendments to integrity leaves a wide margin for error.
                              >~donna
                              >
                              >
                              >I'd rather die fighting for justice than die of natural causes.
                              >~donna
                              >
                              >Kids don't grow up on automatic pilot.
                              >~unknown
                              >
                              >I don't need a husband, I need a wife.
                              >~unknown
                              >
                              >http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_gif_and_oxy
                              >---------
                              >When at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each
                              >one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our
                              >responsibilities to the state-our success or failure, in whatever office we
                              >may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions-
                              >Were we truly men of courage....
                              >Were we truly men of judgment....
                              >Were we truly men of integrity....
                              >Were we truly men of dedication?
                              > ~John F. Kennedy
                              > <A HREF="aol://4344:3132.flag_7.21104714.685274254"> A Patriotic
                              Nation</A>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >To subscribe send a blank e-mail to:
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