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  • The Saint
    Hi, I am writing a story and in the story I have a character who is being killed slowly. The woman character is tied to a table and another character is slowly
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 4, 2011
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      Hi, I am writing a story and in the story I have a character who is being killed slowly.
      The woman character is tied to a table and another character is slowly dissecting her while she is still concious.
      During the discetion what organs can be taken out while the person is still living.
      I am looking for a way so the woman is kept alive while the man is taking her organs out and finally dies as her heart is removed.
      What I am looking for is what medical supplies to keep her alive while enduring the discection, i.e blood supply, drips, I.V's ect.
      I look forward to hearing some ideas.
      Many thanks,
      Clive.
    • elias ebai
      DEAR I SUGEST THAT THIS WOMAN SHOULD CONFESS. GIVE ME HER NAME AND WE SHALL PRAY FOR HER I BELIEVE GOD WILL DO SOMETHING FOR HER THE ALMIGHTY IS ABLE IN ANY
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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        DEAR
        I SUGEST THAT THIS WOMAN SHOULD CONFESS.
        GIVE ME HER NAME AND WE SHALL PRAY FOR HER I BELIEVE GOD WILL DO SOMETHING FOR HER THE ALMIGHTY IS ABLE IN ANY SITUATION WELL JESUS CHRIST A MIRACLE MAKER I KNOW VERY WELL HE DOES.
        GODBLESS YOU
        I WAIT HEAR FROM YOU.

        --- En date de : Mer 5.10.11, The Saint <chisum2@...> a écrit :


        De: The Saint <chisum2@...>
        Objet: [forensic-science] Writer's notes
        À: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Mercredi 5 octobre 2011, 0h41



         



        Hi, I am writing a story and in the story I have a character who is being killed slowly.
        The woman character is tied to a table and another character is slowly dissecting her while she is still concious.
        During the discetion what organs can be taken out while the person is still living.
        I am looking for a way so the woman is kept alive while the man is taking her organs out and finally dies as her heart is removed.
        What I am looking for is what medical supplies to keep her alive while enduring the discection, i.e blood supply, drips, I.V's ect.
        I look forward to hearing some ideas.
        Many thanks,
        Clive.








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • The Saint
        Hi Elias, thanks for responding, But I think you didn t see the clear picture, The woman isn t a criminal from medevial times being tortured for a confesion,
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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          Hi Elias, thanks for responding, But I think you didn't see the clear picture, The woman isn't a criminal from medevial times being tortured for a confesion, she is being killed slowly by a sadistic killer who has pleasure in discecting his victims until they die.
          As I mentioned I am a writer and I am writing a story. This isn't a real life situation, all I asked for what would medical supplies would be needed for this person to keep her alive long enough for the killer to do what he is doing.
          Regards
          Clive

          --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com, elias ebai <ebali1@...> wrote:
          >
          > DEAR
          > I SUGEST THAT THIS WOMAN SHOULD CONFESS.
          > GIVE ME HER NAME AND WE SHALL PRAY FOR HER I BELIEVE GOD WILL DO SOMETHING FOR HER THE ALMIGHTY IS ABLE IN ANY SITUATION WELL JESUS CHRIST A MIRACLE MAKER I KNOW VERY WELL HE DOES.
          > GODBLESS YOU
          > I WAIT HEAR FROM YOU.
          >
          > --- En date de : Mer 5.10.11, The Saint <chisum2@...> a écrit :
          >
          >
          > De: The Saint <chisum2@...>
          > Objet: [forensic-science] Writer's notes
          > À: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Mercredi 5 octobre 2011, 0h41
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, I am writing a story and in the story I have a character who is being killed slowly.
          > The woman character is tied to a table and another character is slowly dissecting her while she is still concious.
          > During the discetion what organs can be taken out while the person is still living.
          > I am looking for a way so the woman is kept alive while the man is taking her organs out and finally dies as her heart is removed.
          > What I am looking for is what medical supplies to keep her alive while enduring the discection, i.e blood supply, drips, I.V's ect.
          > I look forward to hearing some ideas.
          > Many thanks,
          > Clive.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Bob Parsons
          That s a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)? To answer your question, the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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            That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?

            To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.

            I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.

            Bob Parsons, F-ABC
            Forensic Chemist
            Indian River Crime Laboratory
            Ft. Pierce, FL

            "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
            American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page

            "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
            Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • chisum
            Hi Bob, many thanks for the info. Obviously with what you mentioned, I would be using at as a guide-line. As you mentioned if parts of the organ are removed
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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              Hi Bob, many thanks for the info. Obviously with what you mentioned, I would be using at as a guide-line. As you mentioned if parts of the organ are removed then the person could still live.
              I will use that.
              I would love to become as good as Stephen King, Cliver Barker etc. but have just had one book published at the moment, although I am working on a couple of others at the moment, with which one of them needed this info.
              Thanks again.
              Yours
              Clive.

              Clive Woollands,
              Writing under the pseudonym: Robert H. Tempest, Author of Blood Moon.
              www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584
              www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330
              www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall 


              ________________________________
              From: Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...>
              To: "'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'" <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2011, 18:28
              Subject: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes


               
              That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?

              To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the
              stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.

              I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.

              Bob Parsons, F-ABC
              Forensic Chemist
              Indian River Crime Laboratory
              Ft. Pierce, FL

              "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
              American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page

              "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
              Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Lloyd Scharf
              You can t get there from here. ~~~~~It takes a twist of logic to see this as topical for this group. However, you need to understand the psychology of a
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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                "You can't get there from here." ~~~~~It takes a twist of logic to see
                this as topical for this group. However, you need to understand the
                psychology of a sadist better. A sadist does not want a masochist
                because they would beg for more. Unconscious or dead victims is more
                akin to necrophilia. Interrogation gives a victim hope, even if they do
                not know the answers. While I do not pretend to understand the
                motivation, I do know their respective mindsets from interviews. I would
                worry you would inform someone of the "perfect torture," but if there is
                something that exists like that, it has been documented by the Nazis, if
                no other source exists.
                The pain of dissection would be to the point of causing unconsciousness,
                so even an immobilizing drug like curare, which is highly toxic by
                itself, will be of no consequence as shock sets in. Opiates would render
                the victim unconscious as well.
                If you find a legitimate source on lingchi or blood eagle, you will find
                there is no way that can be done in which a sadist would be rewarded.
                What you are asking for is only available in science fiction, mythology,
                or fantasy. Torture comes from the medieval practice of twisting or
                putting torsion on limbs. The greatest pain I have ever experienced
                was when I hit my head crossing the door edge in a ship and pinched a
                nerve at the atlas of my neck, causing me to pass out. The second
                greatest was as my gallbladder died before I went to the emergency room
                and they removed it. I cannot imagine what cancer is like.
                If you have ever had pleurisy, that is nearly as painful and can be
                sustained. You can mimic that in a number of ways, but it is not as
                dramatic dissection. The worst pains a reader can imagine are ones we
                have lived with and not been given a pain reliever. Otherwise, you are
                dealing with necrophilia, not sadism.
                During the Inquisition the inquisitors were not allowed to draw blood.
                As blood loss causes quicker unconsciousness, that makes sense as a
                practical matter. For a "death of a 1000 cuts" you need to stop or
                restrict the bleeding to keep the blood pressure up to prevent shock and
                monitor pain level with the pulse rate.
                The fact of torture is that only a sudden change works. Slow increases
                in pain stimulate the excretion of beta endophins like enkephlin.
                Masochists want a "warm-up" with slow increases for this reason. A
                masochist can be killed in ecstasy because all pain signals are
                nullified and that has happened. Saints of Christianity were documented
                to die this way.
                Ultimately there are protocols and limits to be considered in which your
                scenario and medical supplies would be of no help. My best understanding
                of your goal is it is not possible and you do not realized this because
                you do not understand pain, sadism, and/or dissection. In other words,
                like the New Englander being asked for directions to a place not near a
                road and not near where he lives or something else~~~ "You can't get
                there from here..."
                --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com, "The Saint" <chisum2@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi Elias, thanks for responding, But I think you didn't see the clear
                picture, The woman isn't a criminal from medevial times being tortured
                for a confesion, she is being killed slowly by a sadistic killer who has
                pleasure in discecting his victims until they die.
                > As I mentioned I am a writer and I am writing a story. This isn't a
                real life situation, all I asked for what would medical supplies would
                be needed for this person to keep her alive long enough for the killer
                to do what he is doing.
                > Regards
                > Clive
                >
                > --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com, elias ebai ebali1@ wrote:
                > >
                > > DEAR
                > > I SUGEST THAT THIS WOMAN SHOULD CONFESS.
                > > GIVE ME HER NAME AND WE SHALL PRAY FOR HER I BELIEVE GOD WILL DO
                SOMETHING FOR HER THE ALMIGHTY IS ABLE IN ANY SITUATION WELL JESUS
                CHRIST A MIRACLE MAKER I KNOW VERY WELL HE DOES.
                > > GODBLESS YOU
                > > I WAIT HEAR FROM YOU.
                > >
                > > --- En date de : Mer 5.10.11, The Saint chisum2@ a écritÂ
                :
                > >
                > >
                > > De: The Saint chisum2@
                > > Objet: [forensic-science] Writer's notes
                > > À: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Mercredi 5 octobre 2011, 0h41
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Â
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi, I am writing a story and in the story I have a character who is
                being killed slowly.
                > > The woman character is tied to a table and another character is
                slowly dissecting her while she is still concious.
                > > During the discetion what organs can be taken out while the person
                is still living.
                > > I am looking for a way so the woman is kept alive while the man is
                taking her organs out and finally dies as her heart is removed.
                > > What I am looking for is what medical supplies to keep her alive
                while enduring the discection, i.e blood supply, drips, I.V's ect.
                > > I look forward to hearing some ideas.
                > > Many thanks,
                > > Clive.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Lloyd Scharf
                Long term is not a consideration in his scenario. If horror is the object rather than pain, you could remove everything but the brain, heart, and lungs. You
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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                  "Long term" is not a consideration in his scenario. If horror is the object rather than pain, you could remove everything but the brain, heart, and lungs. You cannot live without your liver and kidneys, but you can live long enough to see them and know you do not have them anymore.

                  This is more like a Thomas Harris [Hannibal Lecter] horror and that writer makes Stephen King look like Alfred Hitchcock. Most of Harris' work has its equivalent in reality and serving up victims as the main course to others without their knowledge has its predecessors in fiction [i.e., "Eating Raoul"] as well.

                  "The Silence of the Lambs" swept the Oscars in 1991 or 1992, but its award winning parts had to do with the dialogue creating pictures in your mind rather than the pictures created on the screen that set them up. That is what should be called the, "Hitchcock Principle," and I suppose that principle informs serial killers as well. There seems to be far more claims of cannibalism by serial killers than there is evidence of its existence. It seems to be an attempt at being ruled to be "insane."

                  "I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

                  --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com, Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?
                  >
                  > To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.
                  >
                  > I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.
                  >
                  > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                  > Forensic Chemist
                  > Indian River Crime Laboratory
                  > Ft. Pierce, FL
                  >
                  > "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
                  > American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page
                  >
                  > "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
                  > Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • chisum
                  Hi John, thanks for your feedback. Obviously I do not wish to furnish potential killers with way of killing people. The story I am writing is horror, which
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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                    Hi John, thanks for your feedback. Obviously I do not wish to furnish potential killers with way of killing people. The story I am writing is horror, which these days goes under the genre of fantasy. To me fantasy was the lord of the rings, or conan the barbarian and krull, but todays publishers have put horror and fantasy in the same peg. So in a way what you said about anything used to keep the victim alive long enough until she saw her heart being removed, would have to be one of the things you mentioned, but used a different way or conbine it with something else. I wish I had the knowledge of pharmist's regarding what drugs to use and where, but as I am a new author who hasn't got certain people of profesion on my speed-dial, I have to go cap in hand to people who would. In my published book Blood Moon, I had the help of pathologist Ed Friedlander M.D, who helped me describe an autopsy of a couple of my victims, alas he is too busy with his own
                    projects, website's and lectures to be of help with my other stories I am writing, which is why I joined this group to get some ideas and help.
                    This story is about a journalist following a story about a reason murders, the killer eventually dumps the body minus their brain, arms and legs and their organ's taken. The killer, is a cannibal that eats what it takes from the bodies, but while discecting the body, the killer enjoys teasing the victim, hense keeping the victim alive long enough to cut out the heart, which is what the victim finally sees before dying.
                    I have seen the Hannibal films and read the books and like I mentione just now, Thomas Harris is the kind of writer, who has these kind of people of professions on his speed-dial.
                    Thanks again. 
                    Clive.

                    Clive Woollands,
                    Writing under the pseudonym: Robert H. Tempest, Author of Blood Moon.
                    www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584
                    www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330
                    www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall 


                    ________________________________
                    From: John Lloyd Scharf <johnlloydscharf@...>
                    To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2011, 20:21
                    Subject: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes


                     
                    "Long term" is not a consideration in his scenario. If horror is the object rather than pain, you could remove everything but the brain, heart, and lungs. You cannot live without your liver and kidneys, but you can live long enough to see them and know you do not have them anymore.

                    This is more like a Thomas Harris [Hannibal Lecter] horror and that writer makes Stephen King look like Alfred Hitchcock. Most of Harris' work has its equivalent in reality and serving up victims as the main course to others without their knowledge has its predecessors in fiction [i.e., "Eating Raoul"] as well.

                    "The Silence of the Lambs" swept the Oscars in 1991 or 1992, but its award winning parts had to do with the dialogue creating pictures in your mind rather than the pictures created on the screen that set them up. That is what should be called the, "Hitchcock Principle," and I suppose that principle informs serial killers as well. There seems to be far more claims of cannibalism by serial killers than there is evidence of its existence. It seems to be an attempt at being ruled to be "insane."

                    "I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

                    --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com, Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?
                    >
                    > To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the
                    stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.
                    >
                    > I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.
                    >
                    > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                    > Forensic Chemist
                    > Indian River Crime Laboratory
                    > Ft. Pierce, FL
                    >
                    > "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
                    > American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page
                    >
                    > "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
                    > Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bob Parsons
                    Of course, it depends what one means by long-term. My meaning was days or weeks as opposed to years. Regarding the flavor of storytelling, you re right,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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                      Of course, it depends what one means by "long-term." My meaning was days or weeks as opposed to years.

                      Regarding the flavor of storytelling, you're right, John. Much more a Harris (or Lovecraft) than a King (or E.A. Poe) kind of story. But then, as I said, I'm not a horror fan so I don't spend much time comparing notes between such authors (although I am a EAP fan). I did find Silence of the Lambs to be an excellent example of masterful storytelling, however (having a superb cast certainly didn't hurt). I don't consider Hitchcock's work to be within the horror genre - much more the suspense/thriller genre I think. I do agree, he was the absolute master of causing viewers to form their OWN images in their minds, instead of graphically depicting it on screen. Such techniques are far more skillful, and more effective in my opinion, than the blood and gore that has now become commonplace in modern storytelling. Both novels and movies are the poorer for the change.

                      From: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com]<mailto:[mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com]> On Behalf Of John Lloyd Scharf
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 3:21 PM
                      To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes



                      "Long term" is not a consideration in his scenario. If horror is the object rather than pain, you could remove everything but the brain, heart, and lungs. You cannot live without your liver and kidneys, but you can live long enough to see them and know you do not have them anymore.

                      This is more like a Thomas Harris [Hannibal Lecter] horror and that writer makes Stephen King look like Alfred Hitchcock. Most of Harris' work has its equivalent in reality and serving up victims as the main course to others without their knowledge has its predecessors in fiction [i.e., "Eating Raoul"] as well.

                      "The Silence of the Lambs" swept the Oscars in 1991 or 1992, but its award winning parts had to do with the dialogue creating pictures in your mind rather than the pictures created on the screen that set them up. That is what should be called the, "Hitchcock Principle," and I suppose that principle informs serial killers as well. There seems to be far more claims of cannibalism by serial killers than there is evidence of its existence. It seems to be an attempt at being ruled to be "insane."

                      "I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

                      --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science%40yahoogroups.com>, Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...<mailto:parsonsr@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      > That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?
                      >
                      > To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.
                      >
                      > I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.
                      >
                      > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                      > Forensic Chemist
                      > Indian River Crime Laboratory
                      > Ft. Pierce, FL
                      >
                      > "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
                      > American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page
                      >
                      > "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
                      > Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bob Parsons
                      You’re welcome. Just keep in mind John’s comments, because he’s correct – the kind of pain inflicted in your plot would really make it quite
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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                        You’re welcome. Just keep in mind John’s comments, because he’s correct – the kind of pain inflicted in your plot would really make it quite impossible for your villain’s victim to remain conscious during the surgical assaults. She would have to either be sedated beforehand or would pass out very soon after each mutilation began. So the victim remaining conscious and sensate would be a total fantasy aspect to your scenario (a pretty sick scenario, I have to again say, but then again it IS a horror novel). Like John, I do always worry a bit that stories of this kind have the potential to plant ideas into the heads of criminal psychopaths in real life, but as there is no shortage of either (fictional horror stories or real-life psychopaths with ideas of their own), so I guess it’s moot.


                        From: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com]<mailto:[mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com]> On Behalf Of chisum
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 1:43 PM
                        To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes



                        Hi Bob, many thanks for the info. Obviously with what you mentioned, I would be using at as a guide-line. As you mentioned if parts of the organ are removed then the person could still live.
                        I will use that.
                        I would love to become as good as Stephen King, Cliver Barker etc. but have just had one book published at the moment, although I am working on a couple of others at the moment, with which one of them needed this info.
                        Thanks again.
                        Yours
                        Clive.

                        Clive Woollands,
                        Writing under the pseudonym: Robert H. Tempest, Author of Blood Moon.
                        www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584<http://www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584>
                        www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330<http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330>
                        www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall>

                        ________________________________
                        From: Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...<mailto:parsonsr%40ircrimelab.org>>
                        To: "'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:%27forensic-science%40yahoogroups.com>'" <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2011, 18:28
                        Subject: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes


                        That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?

                        To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the
                        stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.

                        I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.

                        Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                        Forensic Chemist
                        Indian River Crime Laboratory
                        Ft. Pierce, FL

                        "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
                        American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page

                        "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
                        Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • chisum
                        Hi Bob, yes your right, obviously it wouldn t be long term keeping the victim alive, but the seeds been planted and when I stand back and look at the idea and
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 5, 2011
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                          Hi Bob, yes your right, obviously it wouldn't be long term keeping the victim alive, but the seeds been planted and when I stand back and look at the idea and then getting the feedback, both yours and John, the killer now has a motive, apart from being a cannibal and being every mother's nughtmare with their kids playing with their food. The motive could be the reason he tries to keep them alive is to see how long he can keep them alive as if he's challenging himself to see how long.
                          Thanks again for you and John's help.
                          Clive

                          Clive Woollands,
                          Writing under the pseudonym: Robert H. Tempest, Author of Blood Moon.
                          www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584
                          www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330
                          www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall 


                          ________________________________
                          From: Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...>
                          To: "forensic-science@yahoogroups.com" <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2011, 22:07
                          Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes


                           
                          You’re welcome. Just keep in mind John’s comments, because he’s correct – the kind of pain inflicted in your plot would really make it quite impossible for your villain’s victim to remain conscious during the surgical assaults. She would have to either be sedated beforehand or would pass out very soon after each mutilation began. So the victim remaining conscious and sensate would be a total fantasy aspect to your scenario (a pretty sick scenario, I have to again say, but then again it IS a horror novel). Like John, I do always worry a bit that stories of this kind have the potential to plant ideas into the heads of criminal psychopaths in real life, but as there is no shortage of either (fictional horror stories or real-life psychopaths with ideas of their own), so I guess it’s moot.


                          From: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com]<mailto:[mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com]> On Behalf Of chisum
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 1:43 PM
                          To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes



                          Hi Bob, many thanks for the info. Obviously with what you mentioned, I would be using at as a guide-line. As you mentioned if parts of the organ are removed then the person could still live.
                          I will use that.
                          I would love to become as good as Stephen King, Cliver Barker etc. but have just had one book published at the moment, although I am working on a couple of others at the moment, with which one of them needed this info.
                          Thanks again.
                          Yours
                          Clive.

                          Clive Woollands,
                          Writing under the pseudonym: Robert H. Tempest, Author of Blood Moon.
                          www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584<http://www.offthebookshelf.com/authors/33-robert-h-tempest#584>
                          www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330<http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=100001550838330>
                          www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=info#!/pages/Robert-H-Tempest-Blood-Moon/155595421153314?v=wall>

                          ________________________________
                          From: Bob Parsons <parsonsr@...<mailto:parsonsr%40ircrimelab.org>>
                          To: "'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:%27forensic-science%40yahoogroups.com>'" <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com<mailto:forensic-science%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2011, 18:28
                          Subject: [forensic-science] Re: Writer's notes


                          That's a pretty gruesome story you have there. Angling to be the next Stephen King (and surpass him in the gross-out department)?

                          To answer your question, the major organs that are referred to as "vital organs" are essential to life and one cannot survive for long without any of them - namely, the brain, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas - but you can live with only portions of the lungs, liver and pancreas remaining, and even with small parts of the brain removed. The heart must remain intact unless replaced by an artificial heart, but survival with the best artificial hearts designed to date is difficult due to clotting problems, and ultimately temporary at best. You must also have at least one functioning kidney, unless subjected to twice daily dialysis to remove wastes from the blood. The gall bladder, spleen, and some endocrine glands can be removed without short-term harm, but the missing endocrine hormones must be provided artificially for long-term survival. Sex organs can be entirely removed without life-threatening consequences. You can live with major portions of the
                          stomach and intestines removed, so long as the remaining portions are properly connected together, or if the rectum is missing, with a colostomy port implanted to allow feces removal; however nutrition will suffer without careful diet adjustments and/or supplementation, and diarrhea may be a significant problem. If fed and hydrated intravenously, you can survive in the short term with the digestive tract entirely removed, but long-term survival is unlikely.

                          I have to tell you: there may be some horror fans who would buy your novel, but I doubt many mainstream readers would (I wouldn't). It's just too monstrously depraved a plot line in my opinion, but I could be wrong (I'm not a fan of the horror genre). Good luck anyway.

                          Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                          Forensic Chemist
                          Indian River Crime Laboratory
                          Ft. Pierce, FL

                          "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."
                          American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page

                          "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you must bear testimony within the limits of science."
                          Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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