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RE: [forensic-science] The Commision on Forensic Education

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  • Robert W Parsons
    That s the first time I have ever heard the term respected associated with the ACFE/ABFE (or any of its many offspring), whose past reputation is one of
    Message 1 of 33 , Dec 24, 2008
      That's the first time I have ever heard the term "respected" associated with
      the ACFE/ABFE (or any of its many offspring), whose past reputation is one
      of illegitimacy, that of a notorious diploma mill. Has it changed for the
      better? I'd like to hope so, but I'm still rather dubious about it. The
      fact that they keep changing their name (now "ACFEI") doesn't engender


      MacDonald, Elizabeth, "The Making of an Expert Witness: It's in the
      Credentials," Wall Street Journal - Eastern Edition, 02/08/99, v. 233, no.
      26, p. B1

      Hansen, Mark, "See the Cat? See the Credentials? Psychologist's Scam Gets
      His Pet 'Board-Certified'," in American Bar Association Journal E-Report,
      October 25, 2002. (Re: American Psychotherapy Association, an affiliate of
      the ACFE)

      Golding, Stephen L., "The Voir Dire of Forensic Experts: Issues of
      Qualification and Training - Sheepskins for Sale: Shortcut to Slaughter?",
      presented at the meeting of the American Psychological Association, Boston,
      8/22/99. (Re: American Psychological Specialties Association, another
      subsidiary of the ACFE).

      Hansen, Mark, "Expertise to Go," American Bar Association Journal, No. 86,
      pp. 44-52, February 2000. Abstract: "In a hurry? Then order your forensic
      expert witness credentials--if you have the bucks--from entrepreneur Robert
      O'Block. But are they legitimate? Earning credentials as a forensic expert
      witness can be relatively easy, if you apply to the American College of
      Forensic Examiners. Critics charge the group is basically a certification
      mill offering "checkbook" credentials. The organization is the brainchild
      of entrepreneur Robert O'Block, who makes a six-figure income as its head."

      Henderson, Carol, "Admissibility and Use of Expert Evidence in the
      Courtroom," American Bar Association Scientific Evidence Review Monograph
      No. 6, 2003, pp. 7-8

      Bob Parsons, F-ABC
      Forensic Chemist
      Indian River Crime Laboratory
      Ft. Pierce, FL

      "The forensic scientist's goal is the evenhanded use of all available
      information to determine the facts and, subsequently, the truth."

      American Academy of Forensic Sciences web site, Choosing a Career page

      "If the law has made you a witness, remain a man of science. You have no
      victim to avenge, no guilty or innocent person to convict or to save - you
      must bear testimony within the limits of science."

      Dr. P.C.H. Brouardel, 19th Century French Medico-legalist


      From: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:forensic-science@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Char Wojcik
      Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:26 PM
      To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [forensic-science] The Commision on Forensic Education

      It is relatively new, but is associated with the respected ACFEI.

      On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:45 AM, yoey6 <yoey6@yahoo.
      <mailto:yoey6%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:

      > http://www.forensic <http://www.forensiccommission.com/> commission.com/
      > Is any one familiar with this group?

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    • John Lloyd Scharf
      I am believe the Michael Coble you refer to would have to agree MtDNA population genetics and evolutionary biology has MtDNA population genetics and
      Message 33 of 33 , Dec 31, 2008
        I am believe the Michael Coble you refer to would have to agree MtDNA
        population genetics and evolutionary biology has MtDNA population
        genetics and evolutionary biology has solidly entered the genomics era
        with recent publications of many whole mtGenome sequences.It is
        inevitable and desirable that forensic applications will follow.

        He would have to even agree that single nucleotide polymorphisms over
        the entire mtDNA genome increase the power of forensic testing in

        The Michael Coble you refer to would not deny it is unusual for
        individuals to match over the entire mtGenome, even when they are
        identical in HV1/HV2.

        After all, within the 241 individuals in a study he did, representing
        18common HV1/HV2 types, a total of 209 haplotypes were observed when the
        entire mtGenomes were sequenced. while only 32 of the 241 (13%)
        individuals matched one or more other individuals for the entire

        While I am no Dr. Michael Coble, I am also not one to hide behind a
        nick. This is, for better or worse, the name on my birth certificate.

        Now, just as a heads up, I keep papers done by many in the field and
        refer to them, even though I am just a Yahoo from cyberspace. I believe
        I have been VERY restrained with this Michael Coble <coblem@yahoo. com
        <mailto:coblem%40yahoo.com> >.

        Are you getting the drift of this now, Charles Brenner?

        --- In forensic-science@yahoogroups.com, Charles Brenner <cbrenner@...>
        > At 05:34 PM 12/27/2008, John Scharf responded to Mike Coble's
        > and authoritative comments
        > >I am not certain what your experience is,
        > It's not hard to look him up. Dr. Coble is the director of research of
        > Armed Forces DNA Identification Lab -- one of the leading forensic and
        > research mtDNA labs in the world. He has many mtDNA publications. He
        > whereof he speaks. Incidentally one of his publications evaluates the
        > benefit of sequencing the entire mitochondrion rather that only the
        > regions.
        > [...]
        > >If you think I am incorrect in this, feel free to contact someone
        > >more experience, like:
        > >
        > >Doron Behar MD, PhD Population Geneticist
        > Dr. Behar is with Family Tree DNA, which I respect based on the slight
        > information of my passing familiarity and their association with the
        > well-known researcher Dr. Mike Hammer. Therefore I would give Dr.
        > enough credence to assume that knows quite well who Dr. Coble is and
        > he would agree with or accept Coble's statements.
        > Charles Brenner
        > >________________________________
        > >From: Michael Coble coblem@...
        > >To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
        > >Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 10:54:07 PM
        > >Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Re: Professional Sanction
        > >with Code of Ethics Needed
        > >
        > >
        > >--- On Fri, 12/26/08, John Lloyd Scharf <johnlloydscharf@ yahoo.com>
        > >
        > >"MtDNA has a full genome. It can be sequenced for less than $500."
        > >
        > >I don't doubt it. However my argument to you is that in the "REAL
        > >of forensic mtDNA testing ­ the blood stain or buccal swab that a
        > >genealogy company receives for testing gives them the luxury to
        > >the mtDNA genome so cheaply. With that quantity/quality of DNA, one
        > >have no need for mtDNA testing.
        > >
        > >So, why don't you contradict me and call several genetic
        > >companies and ask them if they will extract DNA from a 5 cm shed hair
        > >shaft and produce an entire mtDNA genome sequence USING the same
        > >for forensic mtDNA testing (e.g. sequencing both heavy and light
        > >of the molecule) for only $500. I'll be waiting, and I look
        forward to
        > >your answer.
        > >
        > >"The 16,519 polymorphism is in the HVR1"
        > >
        > >Although the exact base numbering may vary slightly, most scientists
        > >consider HV1 to cover 16024-16365. (see the bottom of the page -
        > >http://www.mitomap org/cgi-bin/ tbl1gen.pl). Also, examine the mtDB
        > >website for variants in this region: 184 variants among 342 bases
        > >16024-16365 (53.8%) while only 41 variants among 204 bases from
        > >16366-16569 (20.1%) ­ not so hyper.
        > >
        > >"[16519] is an identifier even though it is not a qualifier for a
        > >
        > >On the contrary. Depending on the haplogroup background 16519 can be
        > >stable ­ go to Ian Logan's mtDNA website (http://www.ianlogan
        > >.co.uk/mtDNA. htm) and examine the haplogroup T subclades. All of
        > >individuals have 16519T-C. Of course, it's always possible to
        have a
        > >reversion to the rCRS variant. However, among some haplogroups (see B
        > >H), 16519 can be very unstable.
        > >
        > >"A test that claims matches with 25 in a database of only 3,759
        > >individuals show it is worthless for identification. A test that
        > >752 base pairs out of 16,569 is 95.4614% is worthless for
        > >Etc..."
        > >
        > >Actually, the SWGDAM mtDNA database has 4,839 sequences ­ but we
        > >have to count that as a contradiction if you don't wish.
        > >
        > >As someone who spent a good portion of my life sequencing the entire
        > >genomes of common HV1/HV2 haplotypes ­ I found that about 12% of
        the 18
        > >common types among Western Europeans were unresolved after full
        > >sequencing (n = 241). To claim that without whole genome sequencing,
        > >testing is worthless and a waste of time (well, except for exclusions
        > >but I suppose you have this information a priori) is well,
        > >Having a genetic system shared among all of your maternal relatives,
        > >the presence of common types among the population is a limitation of
        > >testing that lawyers can argue over and juries can weigh in their

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