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Re: [forensic-science] Dental Records

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  • G.F. Phillips
    Bob, Although I didn t post the original question, I would like to ask how dental records are obtained that match with those of the deceased. A person of say
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
      RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
      Bob,
      Although I didn't post the original question, I would like to ask how dental records are obtained that match with those of the deceased.  A person of say fifty, could easily have visited many dentists in different parts of the country, or indeed in different countries.  I am asking the question because it is something which I have been wondering about for some time.
      Kindest
      Gerald
      (London, England)
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert Parsons <rparsons@...>
      To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com' <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: 31 January 2001 18:38
      Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records

      Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood of two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical tooth/jaw configurations.  Today, you can also make use of the ability to do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.

      Bob Parsons, F-ABC
      Forensic Chemist
      Regional Crime Laboratory
      at Indian River Community College
      Ft. Pierce, FL


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
      To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records


      Hello,
      I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
      study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
      that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that done?

      How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?

      Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated



      Jimm C. Greer
      Data Analyst II
      Assistant to Kathy Hein
      West Chester University
      100 West Rosedale Avenue
      Messikomer Hall
      West Chester, PA 19383
      (610) 436-3411



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    • Kerri
      Could anyone offer any information on what I would need to focus on in order to get into the field of Forensic that studies Human Combustion and other
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
        Could anyone offer any information on what I would need to focus on
        in order to get into the field of Forensic that studies Human
        Combustion and other unexplained cases. I am currently a Fire
        Fighter that is interested in the medical mysteries and the
        unexplained cases.

        Thank you in advance.

        Kerri Derwin

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      • crimesc324@aol.com
        just thought I would jump in on this one.. dental records from one dentist will only show those restorative actions done by previous dentists and by the one
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
          just thought I would jump in on this one.. dental records from one dentist
          will only show those restorative actions done by previous dentists and by the
          one charting.anything after that chart would require investigators to locate,
          if possible, other providers and their records. However, since dental work is
          so unique, by comparing antemortem records and xrays with post mortem ones ,
          an ID can be made with the available charts.
        • Hause, David W LTC GLWACH
          First, you find some reason to assume that this tooth is all that can be found/identified of a KNOWN body, as losing a tooth is generally not lethal; for
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
            First, you find some reason to assume that this tooth is all that can be
            found/identified of a KNOWN body, as losing a tooth is generally not lethal;
            for example, I once worked a case in which a person was known to have been
            aboard a crashed aircraft, and one molar tooth (identifiable as his) was
            found among remains in the area of his personal property. Next, you start
            with your regular consulting forensic odontologist and ask him/her to
            properly describe the tooth. Then, assuming I remember correctly, you get
            your agency to query the NCIC (US National Crime Information Center)
            database on missing persons. (I've never used this but have been told that
            it is not terribly well designed for this sort of thing and it is dependent
            on local agencies all over the country entering data on people reported
            missing.) Assume that the tooth you have can be refined to call it #1
            (upper left third molar in a common US nomenclature) (and I'm not a dentist
            and not sure whether wisdom teeth can be refined this precisely.) You get
            back hits on everybody (hopefully, you restricted the search to your
            geographic area) who has been reported as STILL HAVING that tooth (which is
            probably most of the people in the database.) Then you get the records (for
            this tooth, what are called 'bite wing' x-rays will be preferred) and your
            forensic odontologist starts the comparison, record by record. Probably not
            a high yield search.

            Assuming a simpler case, the same tooth from a skeleton identified as
            female, white, 18-25 years old, by the anthropologist, you check local
            missing persons records, send somebody around to get dental records from the
            missing, and proceed as above. Relatively high yield.

            Ideally, you are talking about something like a mass disaster where you know
            who was believed to be involved, you get bigger pieces than single teeth,
            and merely need to match the bodies with the appropriate records (which
            somebody else has collected for you). Sometimes the support in this sort of
            exercise is sub-optimal (or overly optimistic) and you get 19 bodies and 19
            sets of records, do your identification, and conclude positive
            identification of 18 and similarly positive exclusion of the last
            body/record set (two way: this body doesn't match any of the records AND
            this last record doesn't match any of the bodies.) There are a couple of
            available computer programs to assist this, CAPMI (runs under DOS),
            available from the US Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and WinID,
            written by a forensic odontologist in St. Louis, Jim McGiveny
            (http://www.winid.com) and available for free download; I've used the
            former, but only played with the latter.

            For Gerald's question, this is, unfortunately, standard detective-type shoe
            leather and telephone work. One starts with a list of potential identities
            and contacts next of kin, friends, business associates, etc., to ask if
            there is are known medical or dental records, if so, where, then contacts
            the individual practioners to see if they will surrender (or at least lend)
            them.
            Dave Hause
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:09 PM
            To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records


            I greatly appreciate the response to my question. However, the one answer I
            am looking for is where do they start to look for records at. If I find a
            human tooth where do I take it to begin to identify the person whom it
            belongs to?

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Robert Parsons [SMTP:rparsons@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:45 PM
            > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
            > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
            >
            > Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood of
            > two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same
            > locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical
            > tooth/jaw configurations. Today, you can also make use of the ability to
            > do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.
            >
            > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
            > Forensic Chemist
            > Regional Crime Laboratory
            > at Indian River Community College
            > Ft. Pierce, FL
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [ <mailto:Jgreer@...>]
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
            > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
            > Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records
            >
            >
            > Hello,
            > I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
            > study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
            > that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that done?
            >
            > How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?
            >
            > Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated
            >
            >
            >
            > Jimm C. Greer
            > Data Analyst II
            > Assistant to Kathy Hein
            > West Chester University
            > 100 West Rosedale Avenue
            > Messikomer Hall
            > West Chester, PA 19383
            > (610) 436-3411
            >
            >
            >
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          • Greer, Jimmy C.
            David thank you tremendously you have helped to conclude a question that has bothered me for many years.
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
              David thank you tremendously you have helped to conclude a question that has
              bothered me for many years.

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Hause, David W LTC GLWACH [SMTP:David.Hause@...]
              > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:48 AM
              > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
              > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
              >
              > First, you find some reason to assume that this tooth is all that can be
              > found/identified of a KNOWN body, as losing a tooth is generally not
              > lethal;
              > for example, I once worked a case in which a person was known to have been
              > aboard a crashed aircraft, and one molar tooth (identifiable as his) was
              > found among remains in the area of his personal property. Next, you start
              > with your regular consulting forensic odontologist and ask him/her to
              > properly describe the tooth. Then, assuming I remember correctly, you get
              > your agency to query the NCIC (US National Crime Information Center)
              > database on missing persons. (I've never used this but have been told
              > that
              > it is not terribly well designed for this sort of thing and it is
              > dependent
              > on local agencies all over the country entering data on people reported
              > missing.) Assume that the tooth you have can be refined to call it #1
              > (upper left third molar in a common US nomenclature) (and I'm not a
              > dentist
              > and not sure whether wisdom teeth can be refined this precisely.) You get
              > back hits on everybody (hopefully, you restricted the search to your
              > geographic area) who has been reported as STILL HAVING that tooth (which
              > is
              > probably most of the people in the database.) Then you get the records
              > (for
              > this tooth, what are called 'bite wing' x-rays will be preferred) and your
              > forensic odontologist starts the comparison, record by record. Probably
              > not
              > a high yield search.
              >
              > Assuming a simpler case, the same tooth from a skeleton identified as
              > female, white, 18-25 years old, by the anthropologist, you check local
              > missing persons records, send somebody around to get dental records from
              > the
              > missing, and proceed as above. Relatively high yield.
              >
              > Ideally, you are talking about something like a mass disaster where you
              > know
              > who was believed to be involved, you get bigger pieces than single teeth,
              > and merely need to match the bodies with the appropriate records (which
              > somebody else has collected for you). Sometimes the support in this sort
              > of
              > exercise is sub-optimal (or overly optimistic) and you get 19 bodies and
              > 19
              > sets of records, do your identification, and conclude positive
              > identification of 18 and similarly positive exclusion of the last
              > body/record set (two way: this body doesn't match any of the records AND
              > this last record doesn't match any of the bodies.) There are a couple of
              > available computer programs to assist this, CAPMI (runs under DOS),
              > available from the US Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and WinID,
              > written by a forensic odontologist in St. Louis, Jim McGiveny
              > (http://www.winid.com) and available for free download; I've used the
              > former, but only played with the latter.
              >
              > For Gerald's question, this is, unfortunately, standard detective-type
              > shoe
              > leather and telephone work. One starts with a list of potential
              > identities
              > and contacts next of kin, friends, business associates, etc., to ask if
              > there is are known medical or dental records, if so, where, then contacts
              > the individual practioners to see if they will surrender (or at least
              > lend)
              > them.
              > Dave Hause
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:09 PM
              > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
              > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
              >
              >
              > I greatly appreciate the response to my question. However, the one answer
              > I
              > am looking for is where do they start to look for records at. If I find a
              > human tooth where do I take it to begin to identify the person whom it
              > belongs to?
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Robert Parsons [SMTP:rparsons@...]
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:45 PM
              > > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
              > > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
              > >
              > > Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood
              > of
              > > two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same
              > > locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical
              > > tooth/jaw configurations. Today, you can also make use of the ability
              > to
              > > do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.
              > >
              > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
              > > Forensic Chemist
              > > Regional Crime Laboratory
              > > at Indian River Community College
              > > Ft. Pierce, FL
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [ <mailto:Jgreer@...>]
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
              > > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
              > > Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello,
              > > I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
              > > study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
              >
              > > that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that
              > done?
              > >
              > > How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?
              > >
              > > Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Jimm C. Greer
              > > Data Analyst II
              > > Assistant to Kathy Hein
              > > West Chester University
              > > 100 West Rosedale Avenue
              > > Messikomer Hall
              > > West Chester, PA 19383
              > > (610) 436-3411
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupmail/S=17007
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              > > 13164:N/A=567152/R=2/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
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              > > www.
              > >
              > >
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              > > ail/S=1700713164:N/A=567152/rand=471133824>
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            • Robert Parsons
              The answer is: anywhere dental records may be kept. For most people, the most likely source is their family dentist, orthodontist, or dental surgeon. Other
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
                RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records

                The answer is:  anywhere dental records may be kept.  For most people, the most likely source is their family dentist, orthodontist, or dental surgeon.  Other possible sources are military medical records (all soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have panoramic dental x-rays taken, specifically for purposes of post-mortem identification of remains), other employer medical records (some other government agencies, and even some private companies, also take panoramic d-rays of their employees teeth, especially those involved in foreign service), hospital or insurance records.

                Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                Forensic Chemist
                Regional Crime Laboratory
                at Indian River Community College
                Ft. Pierce, FL


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:09 PM
                To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records


                I greatly appreciate the response to my question. However, the one answer I
                am looking for is where do they start to look for records at. If I find a
                human tooth where do I take it to begin to identify the person whom it
                belongs to?

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Robert Parsons [SMTP:rparsons@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:45 PM
                > To:   'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                > Subject:      RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                >
                > Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood of
                > two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same
                > locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical
                > tooth/jaw configurations.  Today, you can also make use of the ability to
                > do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.
                >
                > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                > Forensic Chemist
                > Regional Crime Laboratory
                > at Indian River Community College
                > Ft. Pierce, FL
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [ <mailto:Jgreer@...>]
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
                > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                > Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                >
                >
                > Hello,
                > I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
                > study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
                > that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that done?
                >
                > How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?
                >
                > Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated
                >
                >
                >
                > Jimm C. Greer
                > Data Analyst II
                > Assistant to Kathy Hein
                > West Chester University
                > 100 West Rosedale Avenue
                > Messikomer Hall
                > West Chester, PA 19383
                > (610) 436-3411
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                > eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups
                > Click here for more details
                > <http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/75397/_/980953623/>
                > ---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to:   forensic-science@...
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                > forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
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              • Greer, Jimmy C.
                So is it safe to say that one cannot verify dental records until a possible victim has been established. Then, at that point the dental records could only
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
                  So is it safe to say that one cannot verify dental records until a possible
                  victim has been established. Then, at that point the dental records could
                  only confirm or not confirm said persons identity.

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Hause, David W LTC GLWACH [SMTP:David.Hause@...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:48 AM
                  > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                  >
                  > First, you find some reason to assume that this tooth is all that can be
                  > found/identified of a KNOWN body, as losing a tooth is generally not
                  > lethal;
                  > for example, I once worked a case in which a person was known to have been
                  > aboard a crashed aircraft, and one molar tooth (identifiable as his) was
                  > found among remains in the area of his personal property. Next, you start
                  > with your regular consulting forensic odontologist and ask him/her to
                  > properly describe the tooth. Then, assuming I remember correctly, you get
                  > your agency to query the NCIC (US National Crime Information Center)
                  > database on missing persons. (I've never used this but have been told
                  > that
                  > it is not terribly well designed for this sort of thing and it is
                  > dependent
                  > on local agencies all over the country entering data on people reported
                  > missing.) Assume that the tooth you have can be refined to call it #1
                  > (upper left third molar in a common US nomenclature) (and I'm not a
                  > dentist
                  > and not sure whether wisdom teeth can be refined this precisely.) You get
                  > back hits on everybody (hopefully, you restricted the search to your
                  > geographic area) who has been reported as STILL HAVING that tooth (which
                  > is
                  > probably most of the people in the database.) Then you get the records
                  > (for
                  > this tooth, what are called 'bite wing' x-rays will be preferred) and your
                  > forensic odontologist starts the comparison, record by record. Probably
                  > not
                  > a high yield search.
                  >
                  > Assuming a simpler case, the same tooth from a skeleton identified as
                  > female, white, 18-25 years old, by the anthropologist, you check local
                  > missing persons records, send somebody around to get dental records from
                  > the
                  > missing, and proceed as above. Relatively high yield.
                  >
                  > Ideally, you are talking about something like a mass disaster where you
                  > know
                  > who was believed to be involved, you get bigger pieces than single teeth,
                  > and merely need to match the bodies with the appropriate records (which
                  > somebody else has collected for you). Sometimes the support in this sort
                  > of
                  > exercise is sub-optimal (or overly optimistic) and you get 19 bodies and
                  > 19
                  > sets of records, do your identification, and conclude positive
                  > identification of 18 and similarly positive exclusion of the last
                  > body/record set (two way: this body doesn't match any of the records AND
                  > this last record doesn't match any of the bodies.) There are a couple of
                  > available computer programs to assist this, CAPMI (runs under DOS),
                  > available from the US Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and WinID,
                  > written by a forensic odontologist in St. Louis, Jim McGiveny
                  > (http://www.winid.com) and available for free download; I've used the
                  > former, but only played with the latter.
                  >
                  > For Gerald's question, this is, unfortunately, standard detective-type
                  > shoe
                  > leather and telephone work. One starts with a list of potential
                  > identities
                  > and contacts next of kin, friends, business associates, etc., to ask if
                  > there is are known medical or dental records, if so, where, then contacts
                  > the individual practioners to see if they will surrender (or at least
                  > lend)
                  > them.
                  > Dave Hause
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:09 PM
                  > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                  >
                  >
                  > I greatly appreciate the response to my question. However, the one answer
                  > I
                  > am looking for is where do they start to look for records at. If I find a
                  > human tooth where do I take it to begin to identify the person whom it
                  > belongs to?
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Robert Parsons [SMTP:rparsons@...]
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:45 PM
                  > > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                  > > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                  > >
                  > > Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood
                  > of
                  > > two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same
                  > > locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical
                  > > tooth/jaw configurations. Today, you can also make use of the ability
                  > to
                  > > do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.
                  > >
                  > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                  > > Forensic Chemist
                  > > Regional Crime Laboratory
                  > > at Indian River Community College
                  > > Ft. Pierce, FL
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [ <mailto:Jgreer@...>]
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
                  > > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                  > > Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello,
                  > > I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
                  > > study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
                  >
                  > > that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that
                  > done?
                  > >
                  > > How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?
                  > >
                  > > Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Jimm C. Greer
                  > > Data Analyst II
                  > > Assistant to Kathy Hein
                  > > West Chester University
                  > > 100 West Rosedale Avenue
                  > > Messikomer Hall
                  > > West Chester, PA 19383
                  > > (610) 436-3411
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > >
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                  > >
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                  > > 13164:N/A=567152/R=2/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
                  > >
                  > > www.
                  > >
                  > >
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                  > > ail/S=1700713164:N/A=567152/rand=471133824>
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                • G.F. Phillips
                  Thanks for jumping in here. Best Gerald ... From: crimesc324@aol.com To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
                    Thanks for jumping in here.
                    Best
                    Gerald
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: crimesc324@... <crimesc324@...>
                    To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: 01 February 2001 15:54
                    Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Dental Records


                    >just thought I would jump in on this one.. dental records from one dentist
                    >will only show those restorative actions done by previous dentists and by
                    the
                    >one charting.anything after that chart would require investigators to
                    locate,
                    >if possible, other providers and their records. However, since dental work
                    is
                    >so unique, by comparing antemortem records and xrays with post mortem ones
                    ,
                    >an ID can be made with the available charts.
                    >
                    >
                    >To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                    >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                  • G.F. Phillips
                    Dave Thank you very much indeed. Kindest Gerald ... From: Hause, David W LTC GLWACH To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
                      Dave
                      Thank you very much indeed.
                      Kindest
                      Gerald
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Hause, David W LTC GLWACH <David.Hause@...>
                      To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com' <forensic-science@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: 01 February 2001 15:56
                      Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records


                      >First, you find some reason to assume that this tooth is all that can be
                      >found/identified of a KNOWN body, as losing a tooth is generally not
                      lethal;
                      >for example, I once worked a case in which a person was known to have been
                      >aboard a crashed aircraft, and one molar tooth (identifiable as his) was
                      >found among remains in the area of his personal property. Next, you start
                      >with your regular consulting forensic odontologist and ask him/her to
                      >properly describe the tooth. Then, assuming I remember correctly, you get
                      >your agency to query the NCIC (US National Crime Information Center)
                      >database on missing persons. (I've never used this but have been told that
                      >it is not terribly well designed for this sort of thing and it is dependent
                      >on local agencies all over the country entering data on people reported
                      >missing.) Assume that the tooth you have can be refined to call it #1
                      >(upper left third molar in a common US nomenclature) (and I'm not a dentist
                      >and not sure whether wisdom teeth can be refined this precisely.) You get
                      >back hits on everybody (hopefully, you restricted the search to your
                      >geographic area) who has been reported as STILL HAVING that tooth (which is
                      >probably most of the people in the database.) Then you get the records
                      (for
                      >this tooth, what are called 'bite wing' x-rays will be preferred) and your
                      >forensic odontologist starts the comparison, record by record. Probably
                      not
                      >a high yield search.
                      >
                      >Assuming a simpler case, the same tooth from a skeleton identified as
                      >female, white, 18-25 years old, by the anthropologist, you check local
                      >missing persons records, send somebody around to get dental records from
                      the
                      >missing, and proceed as above. Relatively high yield.
                      >
                      >Ideally, you are talking about something like a mass disaster where you
                      know
                      >who was believed to be involved, you get bigger pieces than single teeth,
                      >and merely need to match the bodies with the appropriate records (which
                      >somebody else has collected for you). Sometimes the support in this sort
                      of
                      >exercise is sub-optimal (or overly optimistic) and you get 19 bodies and 19
                      >sets of records, do your identification, and conclude positive
                      >identification of 18 and similarly positive exclusion of the last
                      >body/record set (two way: this body doesn't match any of the records AND
                      >this last record doesn't match any of the bodies.) There are a couple of
                      >available computer programs to assist this, CAPMI (runs under DOS),
                      >available from the US Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and WinID,
                      >written by a forensic odontologist in St. Louis, Jim McGiveny
                      >(http://www.winid.com) and available for free download; I've used the
                      >former, but only played with the latter.
                      >
                      >For Gerald's question, this is, unfortunately, standard detective-type shoe
                      >leather and telephone work. One starts with a list of potential identities
                      >and contacts next of kin, friends, business associates, etc., to ask if
                      >there is are known medical or dental records, if so, where, then contacts
                      >the individual practioners to see if they will surrender (or at least lend)
                      >them.
                      >Dave Hause
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
                      >Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:09 PM
                      >To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                      >Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                      >
                      >
                      >I greatly appreciate the response to my question. However, the one answer I
                      >am looking for is where do they start to look for records at. If I find a
                      >human tooth where do I take it to begin to identify the person whom it
                      >belongs to?
                      >
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Robert Parsons [SMTP:rparsons@...]
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:45 PM
                      >> To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                      >> Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                      >>
                      >> Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood of
                      >> two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same
                      >> locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical
                      >> tooth/jaw configurations. Today, you can also make use of the ability to
                      >> do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.
                      >>
                      >> Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                      >> Forensic Chemist
                      >> Regional Crime Laboratory
                      >> at Indian River Community College
                      >> Ft. Pierce, FL
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Greer, Jimmy C. [ <mailto:Jgreer@...>]
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
                      >> To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                      >> Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Hello,
                      >> I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
                      >> study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
                      >> that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that done?
                      >>
                      >> How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?
                      >>
                      >> Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Jimm C. Greer
                      >> Data Analyst II
                      >> Assistant to Kathy Hein
                      >> West Chester University
                      >> 100 West Rosedale Avenue
                      >> Messikomer Hall
                      >> West Chester, PA 19383
                      >> (610) 436-3411
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                      >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      >> forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupmail/S=17007
                      >> 13164:N/A=567152/R=1/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
                      >>
                      <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupmail/S=17007
                      >> 13164:N/A=567152/R=2/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
                      >>
                      >> www.
                      >>
                      >>
                      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupm
                      >> ail/S=1700713164:N/A=567152/rand=471133824>
                      >>
                      >> To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                      >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      >> forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      >forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                    • Hause, David W LTC GLWACH
                      Well, that s not how I would phrase it. The records stand on their own. In the incident I described, an organization sent my (then) agency 19 bodies and 19
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
                        Well, that's not how I would phrase it. The records stand on their own. In
                        the incident I described, an organization sent my (then) agency 19 bodies
                        and 19 sets of records on people they thought were the deceased, instead of
                        all the records on people not then saying 'present.' We had one body with
                        no records and one record with no body. It turned out the record belonged
                        to a guy comatose in a hospital, whom the organization had misidentified as
                        who our 19th body turned out to be.
                        Dave Hause
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 11:10 AM
                        To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                        Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records


                        So is it safe to say that one cannot verify dental records until a possible
                        victim has been established. Then, at that point the dental records could
                        only confirm or not confirm said persons identity.

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Hause, David W LTC GLWACH [SMTP:David.Hause@...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:48 AM
                        > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                        > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                        >
                        > First, you find some reason to assume that this tooth is all that can be
                        > found/identified of a KNOWN body, as losing a tooth is generally not
                        > lethal;
                        > for example, I once worked a case in which a person was known to have been
                        > aboard a crashed aircraft, and one molar tooth (identifiable as his) was
                        > found among remains in the area of his personal property. Next, you start
                        > with your regular consulting forensic odontologist and ask him/her to
                        > properly describe the tooth. Then, assuming I remember correctly, you get
                        > your agency to query the NCIC (US National Crime Information Center)
                        > database on missing persons. (I've never used this but have been told
                        > that
                        > it is not terribly well designed for this sort of thing and it is
                        > dependent
                        > on local agencies all over the country entering data on people reported
                        > missing.) Assume that the tooth you have can be refined to call it #1
                        > (upper left third molar in a common US nomenclature) (and I'm not a
                        > dentist
                        > and not sure whether wisdom teeth can be refined this precisely.) You get
                        > back hits on everybody (hopefully, you restricted the search to your
                        > geographic area) who has been reported as STILL HAVING that tooth (which
                        > is
                        > probably most of the people in the database.) Then you get the records
                        > (for
                        > this tooth, what are called 'bite wing' x-rays will be preferred) and your
                        > forensic odontologist starts the comparison, record by record. Probably
                        > not
                        > a high yield search.
                        >
                        > Assuming a simpler case, the same tooth from a skeleton identified as
                        > female, white, 18-25 years old, by the anthropologist, you check local
                        > missing persons records, send somebody around to get dental records from
                        > the
                        > missing, and proceed as above. Relatively high yield.
                        >
                        > Ideally, you are talking about something like a mass disaster where you
                        > know
                        > who was believed to be involved, you get bigger pieces than single teeth,
                        > and merely need to match the bodies with the appropriate records (which
                        > somebody else has collected for you). Sometimes the support in this sort
                        > of
                        > exercise is sub-optimal (or overly optimistic) and you get 19 bodies and
                        > 19
                        > sets of records, do your identification, and conclude positive
                        > identification of 18 and similarly positive exclusion of the last
                        > body/record set (two way: this body doesn't match any of the records AND
                        > this last record doesn't match any of the bodies.) There are a couple of
                        > available computer programs to assist this, CAPMI (runs under DOS),
                        > available from the US Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and WinID,
                        > written by a forensic odontologist in St. Louis, Jim McGiveny
                        > (http://www.winid.com) and available for free download; I've used the
                        > former, but only played with the latter.
                        >
                        > For Gerald's question, this is, unfortunately, standard detective-type
                        > shoe
                        > leather and telephone work. One starts with a list of potential
                        > identities
                        > and contacts next of kin, friends, business associates, etc., to ask if
                        > there is are known medical or dental records, if so, where, then contacts
                        > the individual practioners to see if they will surrender (or at least
                        > lend)
                        > them.
                        > Dave Hause
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [mailto:Jgreer@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:09 PM
                        > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                        > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                        >
                        >
                        > I greatly appreciate the response to my question. However, the one answer
                        > I
                        > am looking for is where do they start to look for records at. If I find a
                        > human tooth where do I take it to begin to identify the person whom it
                        > belongs to?
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Robert Parsons [SMTP:rparsons@...]
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:45 PM
                        > > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                        > > Subject: RE: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                        > >
                        > > Dental records traditionally identify people based on the unlikelihood
                        > of
                        > > two people having the exact same dental procedures in the exact same
                        > > locations (extractions, fillings, prostheses, etc.) and having identical
                        > > tooth/jaw configurations. Today, you can also make use of the ability
                        > to
                        > > do DNA testing on the pulp inside intact teeth.
                        > >
                        > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC
                        > > Forensic Chemist
                        > > Regional Crime Laboratory
                        > > at Indian River Community College
                        > > Ft. Pierce, FL
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Greer, Jimmy C. [ <mailto:Jgreer@...>]
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:39 AM
                        > > To: 'forensic-science@yahoogroups.com'
                        > > Subject: [forensic-science] Dental Records
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hello,
                        > > I am hoping that someone may explain the dental record process to me. I
                        > > study forensics as a hobby yet am very curious on something. When I hear
                        >
                        > > that a body has been identified through dental records, how is that
                        > done?
                        > >
                        > > How does one tooth identify a body and what is the process?
                        > >
                        > > Any and all consideration is greatly appreciated
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Jimm C. Greer
                        > > Data Analyst II
                        > > Assistant to Kathy Hein
                        > > West Chester University
                        > > 100 West Rosedale Avenue
                        > > Messikomer Hall
                        > > West Chester, PA 19383
                        > > (610) 436-3411
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > > forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupmail/S=17007
                        > > 13164:N/A=567152/R=1/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
                        > >
                        > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupmail/S=17007
                        > > 13164:N/A=567152/R=2/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
                        > >
                        > > www.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupm
                        > > ail/S=1700713164:N/A=567152/rand=471133824>
                        > >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: forensic-science@...
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > > forensic-science-unsubscribe@...
                        > >
                        >
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                      • Hause, David W LTC GLWACH
                        That would most likely be either the Fraud unit or the Attic Squirrel Division. Dave Hause ... From: Kerri [mailto:onebiggrump@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
                          That would most likely be either the Fraud unit or the Attic Squirrel
                          Division.
                          Dave Hause
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Kerri [mailto:onebiggrump@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 8:43 AM
                          To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [forensic-science] Human combustion


                          Could anyone offer any information on what I would need to focus on
                          in order to get into the field of Forensic that studies Human
                          Combustion and other unexplained cases. I am currently a Fire
                          Fighter that is interested in the medical mysteries and the
                          unexplained cases.

                          Thank you in advance.

                          Kerri Derwin

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