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Re: transition from Platt Deutsch to Standard High German

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  • amgiad@yahoo.com
    ... dialects to ... in the ... North in ... well, this brings us back to the Lautverschiebung from /p/ to /pf/, /t/ to /ts/, /k/ to /x/. since i don t know any
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 1, 2001
      > I guess there's got to be a transition from local Platt Deutsch
      dialects to
      > standard High German originated in Bavaria and Austria, somewhere
      in the
      > history of the nation-building of Deutschland, in Prussia and the
      North in
      > general.

      well, this brings us back to the Lautverschiebung from /p/ to /pf/,
      /t/ to /ts/, /k/ to /x/. since i don't know any Low saxon/Low German
      dialects, I'll use english, dutch and standard german (and high
      alemannic where necessary) examples.

      english dutch standard german high alemannic

      make /k/ maken /k/ machen /x/
      two /t/ twee /t/ zwei /ts/
      pan /p/ pan /p/ Pfanne /pf/
      king /k/ koning /k/ Kchönig (ZH) [k_X]


      >
      > What percentage of Germans in Germany still speak dialects
      unintelligiable
      > to or differ greatly from Standard High German?

      in the south, people usually mix their dialect with the standard
      idiom, which makes it more intelligible for ppl who don't know the
      dialect, but it always depends on the situation: you'll use standard
      german when talking to your boss, mixed when talking to strangers and
      maybe dialect when at home. about 50% of Germans still speak and
      understand a dialectal idiom - mostly in the south.
      In the north, only very few people still speak the original dialects.

      > Which non-standard German dialects enjoy the status of having their
      own
      > broadcast, TV or even printing press, or are undergoing popular
      support for
      > a "language renaissance"?


      I think Plattdeutsch is recognized as a dying language that needs
      support; there are programmes in Platt on N3 (a northern TV station),
      and there are - all across germany - people who want to support the
      dialects; but if you look at TV shows where people speaking with an
      accent are stigmatized you'll probably get the picture, namely that
      in general the dialects don't have much prestige. northern
      pronunciation of standard german, on the other hand, has more
      prestige than southern pronunciation, actually, the standard pronunc.
      is based on northern pronunciation, although it doesn't sound very
      northern - e.g. Schlange, Stadt and so on all have /S/ and not /s/
      (as in Dutch and Plattdeutsch); on the other hand, Wespe has /s/ and
      not /S/.
    • amgiad@yahoo.com
      César, I m not sure whether Teutonic is the correct nomenclature here, it sounds very negative and i ve never encountered it in linguistic books. I think
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 1, 2001
        César, I'm not sure whether "Teutonic" is the correct nomenclature
        here, it sounds very negative and i've never encountered it in
        linguistic books.
        I think that Swiss Germans, people from Luxembourg and Alsatians are
        the ones who claim to be the most "non-German" (my father always
        used "teutonisch" when he was talking about something he deemed to be
        too, well, GERMAN), but of course Austria also has a culture
        different from Germany - but then again, there are also huge
        differences within Germany. The difference of c being that CH and A
        and Luxembourg have different governments and this does have a few
        implications.

        > A related question: how diverse are regional Teutonic cultures? How
        > different are they from each other?
        > How many of these groups identify with the "main body" or with
        major centers
        > of Teutonic identity(e.g. Berlin, Vienna)? How many of them do not
        identity
        > with the main body(e.g. Alsacians, Swiss Germans etc.)?

        of c the question is also what's the "main body" - I'm not sure
        whether people from Austria identify with Germany and vice versa.
        in the end of c you can speak the same language but have a different
        culture - the latter of c always being constructed by the people
        themselves and by the others (which often leads to auto-sterotyping).
        people in those countries will tell you that they have a different
        culture, even a different language, but that's partly due to
        ideology. then again, it's absolutely arbitrary that low german,
        bavarian, swiss german, alsacian are seen as dialects of the same
        language - this has political reasons rather than linguistic ones
        (many alsacians also feel that their language is NOT a German
        dialect, and as I said, there is no linguistic border between
        Germany, Austria, Switzerland - those are political (and as a aresult
        of this also sociolinguistic) borders.
      • Big_Cat_The_Cool@hotmail.com
        ... or popular basis to it. I wish I could use Teutonisch , if I had a dad lik= e yours, lol! Anyways, what s the deal with Standard German serving as a sor=
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 1, 2001
          --- In foreignlanguage@y..., amgiad@y... wrote:
          > César, I'm not sure whether "Teutonic" is the correct nomenclature
          > here, it sounds very negative and i've never encountered it in
          > linguistic books.

          Simply for the sake of convenience. Of course you know there's no political=
          or popular basis to it. I wish I could use "Teutonisch", if I had a dad lik=
          e yours, lol! Anyways, what's the deal with Standard German serving as a sor=
          t of standard among all these ethnically "Allemanic" provinces and polities?=
          Is it something that has started since middle High German gained its primac=
          y in the time of the electors and further promoted because of the advent of =
          printingpress and a Teutonic civilization?

          Something similar to Serbo-Croatian speaking areas, which has seen at least=
          3 waves of propagation of "literary standards" while still maintained ethni=
          c/political boundaries.
        • amgiad@yahoo.com
          ... political= ... a dad lik= ... well, I d prefer the term German-speaking . ... polities?= ... its primac= ... advent of = ... yes, it s got definitely sth
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 2, 2001
            > Simply for the sake of convenience. Of course you know there's no
            political=
            > or popular basis to it. I wish I could use "Teutonisch", if I had
            a dad lik=
            > e yours, lol!

            well, I'd prefer the term "German-speaking".

            >Anyways, what's the deal with Standard German serving as a sor=
            > t of standard among all these ethnically "Allemanic" provinces and
            polities?=
            > Is it something that has started since middle High German gained
            its primac=
            > y in the time of the electors and further promoted because of the
            advent of =
            > printingpress and a Teutonic civilization?

            yes, it's got definitely sth to do with printers - they had to make
            more money, so they used the lingo that most people understood
            (although they first had to include lists with "foreign words".)
            at the same time, as in the case of other standard languages, they
            are the languages of power. for some time, low german was a literary
            language (like Occitan! - of c Occitan was much more important), but
            with the loss of power, a new language, namely standard (high)
            german, came.

            >
            > Something similar to Serbo-Croatian speaking areas, which has seen
            at least=
            > 3 waves of propagation of "literary standards" while still
            maintained ethni=
            > c/political boundaries.

            tell me about it! three waves?
            well, in any case i think there's a huge difference between the
            German speaking countries and "former Yugoslavia" (I'm not sure
            whether that's the correct nomenclature...) well, in any case, Serbs
            and Croats originally shared the same language, or rather, lots of
            dialects that had nothing to do with whether you're serb or croat -
            of c there were regions inhabited mostly by serbs or by croats, but
            that's just like in the german speaking world which has regions
            mostly inhabited by catholics or by protestants. however, in the
            german speaking world, notions of nationhood existed and still exist
            independently from religion - in fact, both germany and switzerland
            have about 50% protestants and 50% catholics, i think.
            in the Balkans, however, religion was deemed much more important, and
            people still tend to perceive it as much more important, although
            notions of nationhood based on language are also very popular
            (Albanian nationhood).
            well, in any case, Serbs are Orthodox Christians, Croats are Roman
            Catholics (and Bosniaks are Muslimin). this notion of nationhood was
            also very important when modern Greece and modern Turkey came into
            existence: Muslim speakers of greek were all of a sudden perceived as
            TURKS, whereas Christian speakers of Turkish were all of a sudden
            perceived as GREEKS. so you had to leave what was to become modern
            Turkey on the basis of religion, and you had to leave what was to
            become Greece because of your religion.

            To sum it up, whereas in western countries nationhood is most often
            based on a shared (imposed) language, in the eastern countries
            religion is more important. (in the case of Switzerland or Austria it
            is not really the language, because based on language Switzerland
            could be a part of Germany, Italy, and France; Austria could be a
            part of germany... in the end, the idea that a nation is based on a
            shared language is a (dangerous) idea, because there's no nation that
            contains only speakers of ONE language,
            cf. Italy - Italian, but also many other idioms from Sicilian to
            Logudorese, from Lombardic tongues to German, Albanian and Greek!
            France - here most languages died out due to centralist policy:
            Basque, Catalan and Alsacian are still spoken; Occitan basically died
            out.
            the UK - English, Scots, Welsh and so on.
            Germany - German, Schwäbisch, Bavarian, Sorbian (i hope that's the
            correct name, slavonic language), Low German etc.
            Spain - Castilian, Galego, Catalan, Basque and so on.
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