Re: transition from Platt Deutsch to Standard High German
> I guess there's got to be a transition from local Platt Deutschdialects to
> standard High German originated in Bavaria and Austria, somewherein the
> history of the nation-building of Deutschland, in Prussia and theNorth in
> general.well, this brings us back to the Lautverschiebung from /p/ to /pf/,
/t/ to /ts/, /k/ to /x/. since i don't know any Low saxon/Low German
dialects, I'll use english, dutch and standard german (and high
alemannic where necessary) examples.
english dutch standard german high alemannic
make /k/ maken /k/ machen /x/
two /t/ twee /t/ zwei /ts/
pan /p/ pan /p/ Pfanne /pf/
king /k/ koning /k/ Kchönig (ZH) [k_X]
> What percentage of Germans in Germany still speak dialects
> to or differ greatly from Standard High German?in the south, people usually mix their dialect with the standard
idiom, which makes it more intelligible for ppl who don't know the
dialect, but it always depends on the situation: you'll use standard
german when talking to your boss, mixed when talking to strangers and
maybe dialect when at home. about 50% of Germans still speak and
understand a dialectal idiom - mostly in the south.
In the north, only very few people still speak the original dialects.
> Which non-standard German dialects enjoy the status of having theirown
> broadcast, TV or even printing press, or are undergoing popularsupport for
> a "language renaissance"?I think Plattdeutsch is recognized as a dying language that needs
support; there are programmes in Platt on N3 (a northern TV station),
and there are - all across germany - people who want to support the
dialects; but if you look at TV shows where people speaking with an
accent are stigmatized you'll probably get the picture, namely that
in general the dialects don't have much prestige. northern
pronunciation of standard german, on the other hand, has more
prestige than southern pronunciation, actually, the standard pronunc.
is based on northern pronunciation, although it doesn't sound very
northern - e.g. Schlange, Stadt and so on all have /S/ and not /s/
(as in Dutch and Plattdeutsch); on the other hand, Wespe has /s/ and
- César, I'm not sure whether "Teutonic" is the correct nomenclature
here, it sounds very negative and i've never encountered it in
I think that Swiss Germans, people from Luxembourg and Alsatians are
the ones who claim to be the most "non-German" (my father always
used "teutonisch" when he was talking about something he deemed to be
too, well, GERMAN), but of course Austria also has a culture
different from Germany - but then again, there are also huge
differences within Germany. The difference of c being that CH and A
and Luxembourg have different governments and this does have a few
> A related question: how diverse are regional Teutonic cultures? Howmajor centers
> different are they from each other?
> How many of these groups identify with the "main body" or with
> of Teutonic identity(e.g. Berlin, Vienna)? How many of them do notidentity
> with the main body(e.g. Alsacians, Swiss Germans etc.)?of c the question is also what's the "main body" - I'm not sure
whether people from Austria identify with Germany and vice versa.
in the end of c you can speak the same language but have a different
culture - the latter of c always being constructed by the people
themselves and by the others (which often leads to auto-sterotyping).
people in those countries will tell you that they have a different
culture, even a different language, but that's partly due to
ideology. then again, it's absolutely arbitrary that low german,
bavarian, swiss german, alsacian are seen as dialects of the same
language - this has political reasons rather than linguistic ones
(many alsacians also feel that their language is NOT a German
dialect, and as I said, there is no linguistic border between
Germany, Austria, Switzerland - those are political (and as a aresult
of this also sociolinguistic) borders.
- --- In foreignlanguage@y..., amgiad@y... wrote:
> César, I'm not sure whether "Teutonic" is the correct nomenclatureSimply for the sake of convenience. Of course you know there's no political=
> here, it sounds very negative and i've never encountered it in
> linguistic books.
or popular basis to it. I wish I could use "Teutonisch", if I had a dad lik=
e yours, lol! Anyways, what's the deal with Standard German serving as a sor=
t of standard among all these ethnically "Allemanic" provinces and polities?=
Is it something that has started since middle High German gained its primac=
y in the time of the electors and further promoted because of the advent of =
printingpress and a Teutonic civilization?
Something similar to Serbo-Croatian speaking areas, which has seen at least=
3 waves of propagation of "literary standards" while still maintained ethni=
> Simply for the sake of convenience. Of course you know there's nopolitical=
> or popular basis to it. I wish I could use "Teutonisch", if I hada dad lik=
> e yours, lol!well, I'd prefer the term "German-speaking".
>Anyways, what's the deal with Standard German serving as a sor=polities?=
> t of standard among all these ethnically "Allemanic" provinces and
> Is it something that has started since middle High German gainedits primac=
> y in the time of the electors and further promoted because of theadvent of =
> printingpress and a Teutonic civilization?yes, it's got definitely sth to do with printers - they had to make
more money, so they used the lingo that most people understood
(although they first had to include lists with "foreign words".)
at the same time, as in the case of other standard languages, they
are the languages of power. for some time, low german was a literary
language (like Occitan! - of c Occitan was much more important), but
with the loss of power, a new language, namely standard (high)
> Something similar to Serbo-Croatian speaking areas, which has seen
> 3 waves of propagation of "literary standards" while stillmaintained ethni=
> c/political boundaries.tell me about it! three waves?
well, in any case i think there's a huge difference between the
German speaking countries and "former Yugoslavia" (I'm not sure
whether that's the correct nomenclature...) well, in any case, Serbs
and Croats originally shared the same language, or rather, lots of
dialects that had nothing to do with whether you're serb or croat -
of c there were regions inhabited mostly by serbs or by croats, but
that's just like in the german speaking world which has regions
mostly inhabited by catholics or by protestants. however, in the
german speaking world, notions of nationhood existed and still exist
independently from religion - in fact, both germany and switzerland
have about 50% protestants and 50% catholics, i think.
in the Balkans, however, religion was deemed much more important, and
people still tend to perceive it as much more important, although
notions of nationhood based on language are also very popular
well, in any case, Serbs are Orthodox Christians, Croats are Roman
Catholics (and Bosniaks are Muslimin). this notion of nationhood was
also very important when modern Greece and modern Turkey came into
existence: Muslim speakers of greek were all of a sudden perceived as
TURKS, whereas Christian speakers of Turkish were all of a sudden
perceived as GREEKS. so you had to leave what was to become modern
Turkey on the basis of religion, and you had to leave what was to
become Greece because of your religion.
To sum it up, whereas in western countries nationhood is most often
based on a shared (imposed) language, in the eastern countries
religion is more important. (in the case of Switzerland or Austria it
is not really the language, because based on language Switzerland
could be a part of Germany, Italy, and France; Austria could be a
part of germany... in the end, the idea that a nation is based on a
shared language is a (dangerous) idea, because there's no nation that
contains only speakers of ONE language,
cf. Italy - Italian, but also many other idioms from Sicilian to
Logudorese, from Lombardic tongues to German, Albanian and Greek!
France - here most languages died out due to centralist policy:
Basque, Catalan and Alsacian are still spoken; Occitan basically died
the UK - English, Scots, Welsh and so on.
Germany - German, Schwäbisch, Bavarian, Sorbian (i hope that's the
correct name, slavonic language), Low German etc.
Spain - Castilian, Galego, Catalan, Basque and so on.