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Re: My FS

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  • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
    Jo. Ig (!) giss du hav recht, aver de hirkomft av de /k/ laud fron ald germaisch et cetera iss nit so reglig ov man hav /g/. Aver ja, et iss en better men-typ.
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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      Jo. Ig (!) giss du hav recht, aver de hirkomft av de /k/ laud fron
      ald germaisch et cetera iss nit so reglig ov man hav /g/. Aver ja, et
      iss en better men-typ. Ig witt nit warfor de link funktion nit -
      schraib www.members.lycos.co.uk/rsookias end dan klikk "Folksprak
      info" up-an de link said.


      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff. Maybe
      you
      > can just put it in our Files section?
      >
      > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major living
      > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first pronoun
      > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
      > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch [C]
      and
      > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
      > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
      >
      > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely not -
      k,
      > but rather -g:
      >
      > English -
      > German ch
      > Dutch k
      > Scandi g
      >
      > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture won't
      > change:
      >
      > English - (j?)
      > German ch
      > Dutch(+Afr) k
      > Danish g
      > LowSaxon k
      > Icelandic g
      > Norwegian - (j?)
      > Swedish g
      > Frisian k
      > Swytzer -
      > Yiddish sh
      > etc.
      >
      > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
      > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
      > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
      > But as most people here don't want to take too many source
      languages
      > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch ik,
      the
      > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
      >
      > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only be
      "ig".
      >
      > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke" means "not",
      > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
      > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
      >
      > Cham
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
      > <xipirho@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
      info
      > up-
      > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
      > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
      tenk
      > ar
      > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-said"
      ik
      > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer tu
      > sege.
      > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh" and "h"
      ar
      > > OK sikker.
      > >
      >
    • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
      En frag - warfor hav Skandi (ig witt nit ov all de tungs hav et so) i for in !?!? Et iss magwes de ENLIG indo-europaisch (oder west-europaisch
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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        En frag - warfor hav Skandi (ig witt nit ov all de tungs hav et
        so) "i" for "in"!?!? Et iss magwes de ENLIG indo-europaisch (oder
        west-europaisch indo-europaisch?) dat hav ne "n", ne?
      • stefichjo
        ... http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik tenk ar
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
          <xipirho@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken info up-
          > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
          http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en
          oder two tings nu dé ik tenk ar
          > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-said" ik
          > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer tu sege.
          > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh" and "h" ar
          > OK sikker.
          >
        • stefichjo
          Hi Cham, ig was my first approach for I , too, for same reasons that you pointed out. But... In Berlin we say ick , too. :-) And in German and English for
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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            Hi Cham,

            "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that you
            pointed out.

            But...
            In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)

            And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k" became
            "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often turns to EN
            "sh" and DE "sch".

            So this could also be FS:
            "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"

            But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation, so I
            left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
            "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"

            Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.

            Bye,
            Stephan


            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff. Maybe you
            > can just put it in our Files section?
            >
            > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major living
            > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first pronoun
            > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
            > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch [C] and
            > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
            > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
            >
            > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely not -k,
            > but rather -g:
            >
            > English -
            > German ch
            > Dutch k
            > Scandi g
            >
            > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture won't
            > change:
            >
            > English - (j?)
            > German ch
            > Dutch(+Afr) k
            > Danish g
            > LowSaxon k
            > Icelandic g
            > Norwegian - (j?)
            > Swedish g
            > Frisian k
            > Swytzer -
            > Yiddish sh
            > etc.
            >
            > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
            > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
            > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
            > But as most people here don't want to take too many source languages
            > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch ik, the
            > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
            >
            > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only be "ig".
            >
            > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke" means "not",
            > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
            > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
            >
            > Cham
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
            > <xipirho@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken info
            > up-
            > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
            > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik tenk
            > ar
            > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-said" ik
            > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer tu
            > sege.
            > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh" and "h" ar
            > > OK sikker.
            > >
            >
          • stefichjo
            Hi Roly, God ond enfald! Aver ik gern ne skrivungen lik ai and sch , aver i and sk , aver dat is minner en problem. Groeten, Stephan
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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              Hi Roly,

              God ond enfald!
              Aver ik gern ne skrivungen lik "ai" and "sch", aver "i" and "sk", aver
              dat is minner en problem.

              Groeten,
              Stephan

              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
              <xipirho@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken info up-
              > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
              > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik tenk ar
              > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-said" ik
              > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer tu sege.
              > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh" and "h" ar
              > OK sikker.
              >
            • stefichjo
              Ja... fremmed! Okso in Sindarin in werd to i . :) Stephan
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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                Ja... fremmed!
                Okso in Sindarin "in" werd to "i". :)

                Stephan

                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                <xipirho@...> wrote:
                >
                > En frag - warfor hav Skandi (ig witt nit ov all de tungs hav et
                > so) "i" for "in"!?!? Et iss magwes de ENLIG indo-europaisch (oder
                > west-europaisch indo-europaisch?) dat hav ne "n", ne?
                >
              • eugeniusz.slowik
                Hi Cham ond Stephan, in the upper German dialects they just use i: i? i net. Ik bin keen Berliner doch ik mag ik. Eugeniusx
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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                  Hi Cham ond Stephan,
                  in the upper German dialects they just use i: i? i net. Ik bin keen
                  Berliner doch ik mag ik.
                  Eugeniusx

                  stefichjo schrieb:
                  >
                  > Hi Cham,
                  >
                  > "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that you
                  > pointed out.
                  >
                  > But...
                  > In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                  >
                  > And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k" became
                  > "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often turns to EN
                  > "sh" and DE "sch".
                  >
                  > So this could also be FS:
                  > "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                  >
                  > But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation, so I
                  > left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                  > "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                  >
                  > Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                  >
                  > Bye,
                  > Stephan
                  >
                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff. Maybe you
                  > > can just put it in our Files section?
                  > >
                  > > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major living
                  > > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first pronoun
                  > > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                  > > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch [C] and
                  > > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                  > > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                  > >
                  > > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely not -k,
                  > > but rather -g:
                  > >
                  > > English -
                  > > German ch
                  > > Dutch k
                  > > Scandi g
                  > >
                  > > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture won't
                  > > change:
                  > >
                  > > English - (j?)
                  > > German ch
                  > > Dutch(+Afr) k
                  > > Danish g
                  > > LowSaxon k
                  > > Icelandic g
                  > > Norwegian - (j?)
                  > > Swedish g
                  > > Frisian k
                  > > Swytzer -
                  > > Yiddish sh
                  > > etc.
                  > >
                  > > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
                  > > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                  > > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                  > > But as most people here don't want to take too many source languages
                  > > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch ik, the
                  > > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                  > >
                  > > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only be "ig".
                  > >
                  > > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke" means "not",
                  > > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
                  > > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                  > >
                  > > Cham
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                  > > <xipirho@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken info
                  > > up-
                  > > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                  > <http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/>
                  > > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik tenk
                  > > ar
                  > > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-said" ik
                  > > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer tu
                  > > sege.
                  > > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh" and "h" ar
                  > > > OK sikker.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                • stefichjo
                  ... simpel ... Hi Eugene (Eugeniusz), that sounds interesting. Keep it up. And don t forget to keep us up to date. ... What do you mean upper German
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "eugeniusz.slowik"
                    <eugeniusz.slowik@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > En grammatic over Gemönsprak is noh nit fertig. Ik will mahe en
                    "simpel"
                    > grammatic geleik as Afrikaans ond Southgerman "Umgangssprak". But the
                    > vocabulary should be that of Folkspraak. The same I do at Slovio using
                    > Slovio´s dict. but I am also suggesting new words and new grammatical
                    > features.
                    > Min nam is Eugeniusz "sx" is en Slovio-skrivung. Het is mögelik dat
                    > cx, sx ond zx is orspronglik en Esperanto-skriving.
                    > Groeten,
                    > Eugeniusx

                    Hi Eugene (Eugeniusz),
                    that sounds interesting. Keep it up. And don't forget to keep us up to
                    date.

                    > Hi Cham ond Stephan,
                    > in the upper German dialects they just use i: i? i net. Ik bin keen
                    > Berliner doch ik mag ik.
                    > Eugeniusx

                    What do you mean "upper German dialects"? Well, there are German
                    dialects, for example bavarian, that use "i". "I mog di" means "Ich
                    mag dich" in Bavaria.


                    > "chen und lein machen alle Dinge klein" Haus > Häuschen; Maus
                    > >Mäuslein, Engländer > Engländerchen.
                    > Before the the secession of Czechoslovakia Czechia was called
                    Tschechai,
                    > never Tschechien. So Tchekien is o.k.

                    Aha. Well, so I'll go forward with -ien for a while...

                    For historical informations on Tschechei and Tschechien, take a look at:

                    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tschechien#Tschechien.2FTschechei_und_Geschichtliches


                    Bye,
                    Stephan
                  • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
                    Kul. Jo ig giss man kund schraive sk ODER sch - de ungelaikhed iss nit grot, end et iss gelaik w ODER v . Mid i et iss nit so enfald doch. Iss nit de
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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                      Kul. Jo ig giss man kund schraive "sk" ODER "sch" - de ungelaikhed
                      iss nit grot, end et iss gelaik "w" ODER "v". Mid "i" et iss nit so
                      enfald doch. Iss nit de autspreking /ai/ end /au/ better for
                      hochtydisch end englisch hav de difftongs end nederlandisch hav ander
                      diftongs, nit de ald lang vokals?

                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Roly,
                      >
                      > God ond enfald!
                      > Aver ik gern ne skrivungen lik "ai" and "sch", aver "i" and "sk",
                      aver
                      > dat is minner en problem.
                      >
                      > Groeten,
                      > Stephan
                      >
                      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                      > <xipirho@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
                      info up-
                      > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                      > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
                      tenk ar
                      > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-said"
                      ik
                      > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer tu
                      sege.
                      > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh" and "h"
                      ar
                      > > OK sikker.
                      > >
                      >
                    • chamavian
                      Hei Stephan In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or most source languages into something else, it should have a different consonant
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 1, 2006
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                        Hei Stephan

                        In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or
                        most source languages into something else, it should have a
                        different consonant in FS as well. So:

                        PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)

                        PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)

                        But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because there
                        only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.

                        Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                        ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                        completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                        incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as Latin
                        or Old Irish.

                        If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                        standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                        learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic language
                        and maybe one or two others.

                        You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like

                        "naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"

                        because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of view.
                        And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not completely
                        regular too)

                        But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -lig,
                        and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers of
                        those languages.

                        See what I mean?

                        And this is only about very few and very much used words, I don't
                        think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.

                        Cham

                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Cham,
                        >
                        > "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that you
                        > pointed out.
                        >
                        > But...
                        > In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                        >
                        > And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k" became
                        > "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often turns
                        to EN
                        > "sh" and DE "sch".
                        >
                        > So this could also be FS:
                        > "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                        >
                        > But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation, so I
                        > left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                        > "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                        >
                        > Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                        >
                        > Bye,
                        > Stephan
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                        Maybe you
                        > > can just put it in our Files section?
                        > >
                        > > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                        living
                        > > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                        pronoun
                        > > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                        > > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
                        [C] and
                        > > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                        > > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                        > >
                        > > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely
                        not -k,
                        > > but rather -g:
                        > >
                        > > English -
                        > > German ch
                        > > Dutch k
                        > > Scandi g
                        > >
                        > > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                        won't
                        > > change:
                        > >
                        > > English - (j?)
                        > > German ch
                        > > Dutch(+Afr) k
                        > > Danish g
                        > > LowSaxon k
                        > > Icelandic g
                        > > Norwegian - (j?)
                        > > Swedish g
                        > > Frisian k
                        > > Swytzer -
                        > > Yiddish sh
                        > > etc.
                        > >
                        > > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
                        > > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                        > > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                        > > But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                        languages
                        > > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
                        ik, the
                        > > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                        > >
                        > > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
                        be "ig".
                        > >
                        > > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                        means "not",
                        > > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
                        > > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                        > >
                        > > Cham
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                        > > <xipirho@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
                        info
                        > > up-
                        > > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                        http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                        > > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
                        tenk
                        > > ar
                        > > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                        said" ik
                        > > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer
                        tu
                        > > sege.
                        > > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                        and "h" ar
                        > > > OK sikker.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • David Parke
                        ... In the case of EN, -ly is used more often as an adverb marker and not in the manner of the equivalents in other languages. Especially not in a productive
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
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                          chamavian wrote:

                          >Hei Stephan
                          >
                          >In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or
                          >most source languages into something else, it should have a
                          >different consonant in FS as well. So:
                          >
                          >PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
                          >
                          >PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
                          >
                          >
                          In the case of EN, -ly is used more often as an adverb marker and not in
                          the manner of the equivalents in other languages. Especially not in a
                          productive manner.
                          But you will often find EN -like used in a manner more directly
                          equivalent to those other suffixes. And "-like" is a productive suffix.
                          So in the case of *-lik, I think having a -k makes more sense.

                          But in other cases, I think if we use -g in the 1st person nominative
                          pronoun, there would be other words which should follow the same
                          pattern. So the 3rd person reflexive pronoun should be "sig" not *sik




                          >But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because there
                          >only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
                          >
                          >Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                          >ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                          >completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                          >incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as Latin
                          >or Old Irish.
                          >
                          >If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                          >standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                          >learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic language
                          >and maybe one or two others.
                          >
                          >You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
                          >
                          >"naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
                          >
                          >because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of view.
                          >And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not completely
                          >regular too)
                          >
                          >
                          If the second germanic consonant shift (the high german one) were
                          totally consistant, all instances of *k would become *ch. This doesn't
                          seem to have happened in Standard German, but some dialects have done it
                          more totally. This is perhaps because Standard German is somewhat of a
                          conlang, an artificial merging of various dialects, some of which have
                          more completely undergone the consonant shift than others.


                          >But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -lig,
                          >and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers of
                          >those languages.
                          >
                          >See what I mean?
                          >
                          >And this is only about very few and very much used words, I don't
                          >think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.
                          >
                          >Cham
                          >
                          >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >>Hi Cham,
                          >>
                          >>"ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that you
                          >>pointed out.
                          >>
                          >>But...
                          >>In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                          >>
                          >>And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k" became
                          >>"ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often turns
                          >>
                          >>
                          >to EN
                          >
                          >
                          >>"sh" and DE "sch".
                          >>
                          >>So this could also be FS:
                          >>"naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                          >>
                          >>But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation, so I
                          >>left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                          >>"naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                          >>
                          >>Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                          >>
                          >>Bye,
                          >>Stephan
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>>Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >Maybe you
                          >
                          >
                          >>>can just put it in our Files section?
                          >>>
                          >>>By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >living
                          >
                          >
                          >>>Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >pronoun
                          >
                          >
                          >>>singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                          >>>English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >[C] and
                          >
                          >
                          >>>Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                          >>>NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                          >>>
                          >>>So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >not -k,
                          >
                          >
                          >>>but rather -g:
                          >>>
                          >>>English -
                          >>>German ch
                          >>>Dutch k
                          >>>Scandi g
                          >>>
                          >>>If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >won't
                          >
                          >
                          >>>change:
                          >>>
                          >>>English - (j?)
                          >>>German ch
                          >>>Dutch(+Afr) k
                          >>>Danish g
                          >>>LowSaxon k
                          >>>Icelandic g
                          >>>Norwegian - (j?)
                          >>>Swedish g
                          >>>Frisian k
                          >>>Swytzer -
                          >>>Yiddish sh
                          >>>etc.
                          >>>
                          >>>here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
                          >>>although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                          >>>The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                          >>>But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >languages
                          >
                          >
                          >>>into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >ik, the
                          >
                          >
                          >>>intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                          >>>
                          >>>For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >be "ig".
                          >
                          >
                          >>>Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >means "not",
                          >
                          >
                          >>>which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
                          >>>"Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                          >>>
                          >>>Cham
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                          >>><xipirho@> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>>Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >info
                          >
                          >
                          >>>up-
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>>an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                          >
                          >
                          >>>>rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >tenk
                          >
                          >
                          >>>ar
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>>fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >said" ik
                          >
                          >
                          >>>>tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >tu
                          >
                          >
                          >>>sege.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>>Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >and "h" ar
                          >
                          >
                          >>>>OK sikker.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >No virus found in this incoming message.
                          >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.22/512 - Release Date: 1/11/2006
                          >
                          >
                        • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
                          En frag Ingmar - warfor Cham ? ... became
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            En frag Ingmar - warfor "Cham"?


                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hei Stephan
                            >
                            > In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or
                            > most source languages into something else, it should have a
                            > different consonant in FS as well. So:
                            >
                            > PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
                            >
                            > PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
                            >
                            > But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because there
                            > only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
                            >
                            > Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                            > ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                            > completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                            > incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as Latin
                            > or Old Irish.
                            >
                            > If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                            > standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                            > learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic language
                            > and maybe one or two others.
                            >
                            > You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
                            >
                            > "naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
                            >
                            > because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of view.
                            > And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not completely
                            > regular too)
                            >
                            > But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -lig,
                            > and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers of
                            > those languages.
                            >
                            > See what I mean?
                            >
                            > And this is only about very few and very much used words, I don't
                            > think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.
                            >
                            > Cham
                            >
                            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Cham,
                            > >
                            > > "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that you
                            > > pointed out.
                            > >
                            > > But...
                            > > In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                            > >
                            > > And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k"
                            became
                            > > "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often turns
                            > to EN
                            > > "sh" and DE "sch".
                            > >
                            > > So this could also be FS:
                            > > "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                            > >
                            > > But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation, so I
                            > > left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                            > > "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                            > >
                            > > Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                            > >
                            > > Bye,
                            > > Stephan
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                            > Maybe you
                            > > > can just put it in our Files section?
                            > > >
                            > > > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                            > living
                            > > > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                            > pronoun
                            > > > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                            > > > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
                            > [C] and
                            > > > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                            > > > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                            > > >
                            > > > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely
                            > not -k,
                            > > > but rather -g:
                            > > >
                            > > > English -
                            > > > German ch
                            > > > Dutch k
                            > > > Scandi g
                            > > >
                            > > > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                            > won't
                            > > > change:
                            > > >
                            > > > English - (j?)
                            > > > German ch
                            > > > Dutch(+Afr) k
                            > > > Danish g
                            > > > LowSaxon k
                            > > > Icelandic g
                            > > > Norwegian - (j?)
                            > > > Swedish g
                            > > > Frisian k
                            > > > Swytzer -
                            > > > Yiddish sh
                            > > > etc.
                            > > >
                            > > > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
                            > > > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                            > > > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                            > > > But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                            > languages
                            > > > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
                            > ik, the
                            > > > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                            > > >
                            > > > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
                            > be "ig".
                            > > >
                            > > > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                            > means "not",
                            > > > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
                            > > > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                            > > >
                            > > > Cham
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                            > > > <xipirho@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
                            > info
                            > > > up-
                            > > > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                            > http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                            > > > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
                            > tenk
                            > > > ar
                            > > > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                            > said" ik
                            > > > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer
                            > tu
                            > > > sege.
                            > > > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                            > and "h" ar
                            > > > > OK sikker.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • chamavian
                            Don t go say I fooled you guys, or didn t you know that Chamavian and your old buddy Ingmar were one and the same? Chamavian because of my original home
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Don't go say I fooled you guys, or didn't you know that Chamavian and
                              your old buddy Ingmar were one and the same?

                              "Chamavian" because of my original home region Hamaland, after the
                              old Germanic tribe called Chamavii [xA"ma:vi:] by the Romans. The
                              Chamavians were a Low Franconian people in the Eastern parts of the
                              Dutch province of Gelderland/Guelders, the South of Salland in the
                              province Overijssel(called after the Franconian Salii that migrated
                              from there to become the French) and some adjacent parts of
                              Westphalia in Germany.

                              Nowadays Hamaland (or "Hameland") is the name for a much smaller
                              area: the East of the Guelders Achterhoek in the Netherlands, and the
                              Westmünsterland in Westphalia, Germany.

                              The funny thing is that present Hamaland is thoroughly Low Saxon
                              speaking in stead of Low Franconian. At the anniversary site of the
                              Lowlands linguists list, you can find the famous Wren story in the
                              Hamaland Low Saxon versions of my place of birth Winterswijk
                              (or "Wenters" in LS), and of Bocholt ("Bokelt" in LS) in the
                              Westmünsterland. My grantmother translated the Wenters version and I
                              recorded it. The link to this is

                              Winterswijk is in the centre of modern Hamaland, hence: Chamavian.
                              Cham is an abbreviation of course, pronounced [xAm].

                              I'm aware of the biblical Cham as well, who gave name to the Hamitic
                              language group and peoples in East Africa. At least, that's Cham
                              [xAm] in the Dutch Bible... And since I'm very interested in African
                              cultures and languages as well, this abbreviations fits me well.

                              To end with a Hamaland salute:

                              Goodgaon! [Go:dGQ:~]

                              Cham








                              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                              <xipirho@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > En frag Ingmar - warfor "Cham"?
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hei Stephan
                              > >
                              > > In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or
                              > > most source languages into something else, it should have a
                              > > different consonant in FS as well. So:
                              > >
                              > > PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
                              > >
                              > > PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
                              > >
                              > > But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because
                              there
                              > > only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
                              > >
                              > > Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                              > > ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                              > > completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                              > > incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as
                              Latin
                              > > or Old Irish.
                              > >
                              > > If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                              > > standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                              > > learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic
                              language
                              > > and maybe one or two others.
                              > >
                              > > You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
                              > >
                              > > "naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
                              > >
                              > > because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of view.
                              > > And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not
                              completely
                              > > regular too)
                              > >
                              > > But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -
                              lig,
                              > > and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers
                              of
                              > > those languages.
                              > >
                              > > See what I mean?
                              > >
                              > > And this is only about very few and very much used words, I don't
                              > > think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.
                              > >
                              > > Cham
                              > >
                              > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Cham,
                              > > >
                              > > > "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that
                              you
                              > > > pointed out.
                              > > >
                              > > > But...
                              > > > In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                              > > >
                              > > > And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k"
                              > became
                              > > > "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often
                              turns
                              > > to EN
                              > > > "sh" and DE "sch".
                              > > >
                              > > > So this could also be FS:
                              > > > "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                              > > >
                              > > > But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation,
                              so I
                              > > > left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                              > > > "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                              > > >
                              > > > Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                              > > >
                              > > > Bye,
                              > > > Stephan
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@>
                              wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                              > > Maybe you
                              > > > > can just put it in our Files section?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                              > > living
                              > > > > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                              > > pronoun
                              > > > > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                              > > > > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
                              > > [C] and
                              > > > > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                              > > > > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be
                              defenitely
                              > > not -k,
                              > > > > but rather -g:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > English -
                              > > > > German ch
                              > > > > Dutch k
                              > > > > Scandi g
                              > > > >
                              > > > > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                              > > won't
                              > > > > change:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > English - (j?)
                              > > > > German ch
                              > > > > Dutch(+Afr) k
                              > > > > Danish g
                              > > > > LowSaxon k
                              > > > > Icelandic g
                              > > > > Norwegian - (j?)
                              > > > > Swedish g
                              > > > > Frisian k
                              > > > > Swytzer -
                              > > > > Yiddish sh
                              > > > > etc.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2
                              other,
                              > > > > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                              > > > > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                              > > > > But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                              > > languages
                              > > > > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
                              > > ik, the
                              > > > > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
                              > > be "ig".
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                              > > means "not",
                              > > > > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik"
                              meant "I".
                              > > > > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Cham
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley
                              Sukius"
                              > > > > <xipirho@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en
                              bittken
                              > > info
                              > > > > up-
                              > > > > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                              > > http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                              > > > > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé
                              ik
                              > > tenk
                              > > > > ar
                              > > > > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                              > > said" ik
                              > > > > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss
                              swer
                              > > tu
                              > > > > sege.
                              > > > > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                              > > and "h" ar
                              > > > > > OK sikker.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • chamavian
                              Sorry, I forgot the link to the Hamaland Low Saxon Wren story and recording. It is: http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/achterhooks.php At this anniversary
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
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                                Sorry, I forgot the link to the Hamaland Low Saxon Wren story and
                                recording. It is:

                                http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/achterhooks.php

                                At this anniversary site you can also find a Folkspraak version by
                                David Parke, a Middelsprake version by me, and several translations
                                in Low Saxon, Dutch, German, English, Old Anglo-Saxon, Scots and
                                Scandinavian languages and dialects.

                                Also more artificial languages like Interlingua, Slovio, Experanto
                                e.a.

                                So go there!
                                Cham

                                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Don't go say I fooled you guys, or didn't you know that Chamavian
                                > and your old buddy Ingmar were one and the same?
                                >
                                > "Chamavian" because of my original home region Hamaland, after the
                                > old Germanic tribe called Chamavii [xA"ma:vi:] by the Romans. The
                                > Chamavians were a Low Franconian people in the Eastern parts of the
                                > Dutch province of Gelderland/Guelders, the South of Salland in the
                                > province Overijssel(called after the Franconian Salii that migrated
                                > from there to become the French) and some adjacent parts of
                                > Westphalia in Germany.
                                >
                                > Nowadays Hamaland (or "Hameland") is the name for a much smaller
                                > area: the East of the Guelders Achterhoek in the Netherlands, and
                                > the Westmünsterland in Westphalia, Germany.
                                >
                                > The funny thing is that present Hamaland is thoroughly Low Saxon
                                > speaking in stead of Low Franconian. At the anniversary site of the
                                > Lowlands linguists list, you can find the famous Wren story in the
                                > Hamaland Low Saxon versions of my place of birth Winterswijk
                                > (or "Wenters" in LS), and of Bocholt ("Bokelt" in LS) in the
                                > Westmünsterland. My grantmother translated the Wenters version and
                                > I recorded it. The link to this is

                                http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/achterhooks.php

                                >
                                > Winterswijk is in the centre of modern Hamaland, hence: Chamavian.
                                > Cham is an abbreviation of course, pronounced [xAm].
                                >
                                > I'm aware of the biblical Cham as well, who gave name to the
                                > Hamitic
                                > language group and peoples in East Africa. At least, that's Cham
                                > [xAm] in the Dutch Bible... And since I'm very interested in
                                > African
                                > cultures and languages as well, this abbreviations fits me well.
                                >
                                > To end with a Hamaland salute:
                                >
                                > Goodgaon! [Go:dGQ:~]
                                >
                                > Cham
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                                > <xipirho@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > En frag Ingmar - warfor "Cham"?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hei Stephan
                                > > >
                                > > > In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several
                                or
                                > > > most source languages into something else, it should have a
                                > > > different consonant in FS as well. So:
                                > > >
                                > > > PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
                                > > >
                                > > > PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
                                > > >
                                > > > But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because
                                > there
                                > > > only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
                                > > >
                                > > > Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                                > > > ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                                > > > completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                                > > > incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as
                                > Latin
                                > > > or Old Irish.
                                > > >
                                > > > If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                                > > > standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                                > > > learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic
                                > language
                                > > > and maybe one or two others.
                                > > >
                                > > > You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
                                > > >
                                > > > "naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
                                > > >
                                > > > because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of
                                view.
                                > > > And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not
                                > completely
                                > > > regular too)
                                > > >
                                > > > But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -
                                > lig,
                                > > > and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to
                                speakers
                                > of
                                > > > those languages.
                                > > >
                                > > > See what I mean?
                                > > >
                                > > > And this is only about very few and very much used words, I
                                don't
                                > > > think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for
                                you.
                                > > >
                                > > > Cham
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi Cham,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons
                                that
                                > you
                                > > > > pointed out.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > But...
                                > > > > In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k"
                                > > became
                                > > > > "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often
                                > turns
                                > > > to EN
                                > > > > "sh" and DE "sch".
                                > > > >
                                > > > > So this could also be FS:
                                > > > > "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                                > > > >
                                > > > > But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation,
                                > so I
                                > > > > left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                                > > > > "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Bye,
                                > > > > Stephan
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                                > > > Maybe you
                                > > > > > can just put it in our Files section?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                                > > > living
                                > > > > > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                                > > > pronoun
                                > > > > > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                                > > > > > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft
                                ch
                                > > > [C] and
                                > > > > > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                                > > > > > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be
                                > defenitely
                                > > > not -k,
                                > > > > > but rather -g:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > English -
                                > > > > > German ch
                                > > > > > Dutch k
                                > > > > > Scandi g
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                                > > > won't
                                > > > > > change:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > English - (j?)
                                > > > > > German ch
                                > > > > > Dutch(+Afr) k
                                > > > > > Danish g
                                > > > > > LowSaxon k
                                > > > > > Icelandic g
                                > > > > > Norwegian - (j?)
                                > > > > > Swedish g
                                > > > > > Frisian k
                                > > > > > Swytzer -
                                > > > > > Yiddish sh
                                > > > > > etc.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2
                                > other,
                                > > > > > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                                > > > > > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                                > > > > > But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                                > > > languages
                                > > > > > into account: even if one would only take English I and
                                Dutch
                                > > > ik, the
                                > > > > > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can
                                only
                                > > > be "ig".
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                                > > > means "not",
                                > > > > > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik"
                                > meant "I".
                                > > > > > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Cham
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley
                                > Sukius"
                                > > > > > <xipirho@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en
                                > bittken
                                > > > info
                                > > > > > up-
                                > > > > > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                                > > > http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                                > > > > > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu

                                > ik
                                > > > tenk
                                > > > > > ar
                                > > > > > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                                > > > said" ik
                                > > > > > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss
                                > swer
                                > > > tu
                                > > > > > sege.
                                > > > > > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                                > > > and "h" ar
                                > > > > > > OK sikker.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • chamavian
                                Yes, I think it should be sig as well. * Sik with final -k doesn t even exist in one of the source langages! German sich, Dutch zich, and Scandinavian
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yes, I think it should be "sig" as well. *"Sik" with final -k doesn't
                                  even exist in one of the source langages! German sich, Dutch zich,
                                  and Scandinavian sig/seg, so where would one take that -k from then?

                                  Think of English daily, German täglich
                                  English naturely, German natürlich
                                  English ugly, German hässlich
                                  etc etc

                                  and you'll realize that E -ly and not -like is the cognate here.

                                  At least I never heard of "give us our daylike bread", "that's true,
                                  naturelike" or "what an uglike woman" ;-)

                                  Chambo


                                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > chamavian wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Hei Stephan
                                  > >
                                  > >In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or
                                  > >most source languages into something else, it should have a
                                  > >different consonant in FS as well. So:
                                  > >
                                  > >PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
                                  > >
                                  > >PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > In the case of EN, -ly is used more often as an adverb marker and
                                  not in
                                  > the manner of the equivalents in other languages. Especially not in
                                  a
                                  > productive manner.
                                  > But you will often find EN -like used in a manner more directly
                                  > equivalent to those other suffixes. And "-like" is a productive
                                  suffix.
                                  > So in the case of *-lik, I think having a -k makes more sense.
                                  >
                                  > But in other cases, I think if we use -g in the 1st person
                                  nominative
                                  > pronoun, there would be other words which should follow the same
                                  > pattern. So the 3rd person reflexive pronoun should be "sig" not
                                  *sik
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because there
                                  > >only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
                                  > >
                                  > >Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                                  > >ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                                  > >completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                                  > >incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as
                                  Latin
                                  > >or Old Irish.
                                  > >
                                  > >If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                                  > >standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                                  > >learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic language
                                  > >and maybe one or two others.
                                  > >
                                  > >You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
                                  > >
                                  > >"naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
                                  > >
                                  > >because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of view.
                                  > >And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not
                                  completely
                                  > >regular too)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > If the second germanic consonant shift (the high german one) were
                                  > totally consistant, all instances of *k would become *ch. This
                                  doesn't
                                  > seem to have happened in Standard German, but some dialects have
                                  done it
                                  > more totally. This is perhaps because Standard German is somewhat
                                  of a
                                  > conlang, an artificial merging of various dialects, some of which
                                  have
                                  > more completely undergone the consonant shift than others.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -lig,
                                  > >and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers
                                  of
                                  > >those languages.
                                  > >
                                  > >See what I mean?
                                  > >
                                  > >And this is only about very few and very much used words, I don't
                                  > >think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.
                                  > >
                                  > >Cham
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>Hi Cham,
                                  > >>
                                  > >>"ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that you
                                  > >>pointed out.
                                  > >>
                                  > >>But...
                                  > >>In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                                  > >>
                                  > >>And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k"
                                  became
                                  > >>"ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often turns
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >to EN
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>"sh" and DE "sch".
                                  > >>
                                  > >>So this could also be FS:
                                  > >>"naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                                  > >>
                                  > >>But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation, so I
                                  > >>left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                                  > >>"naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Bye,
                                  > >>Stephan
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>>Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >Maybe you
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>can just put it in our Files section?
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >living
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >pronoun
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                                  > >>>English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >[C] and
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                                  > >>>NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >not -k,
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>but rather -g:
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>English -
                                  > >>>German ch
                                  > >>>Dutch k
                                  > >>>Scandi g
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >won't
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>change:
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>English - (j?)
                                  > >>>German ch
                                  > >>>Dutch(+Afr) k
                                  > >>>Danish g
                                  > >>>LowSaxon k
                                  > >>>Icelandic g
                                  > >>>Norwegian - (j?)
                                  > >>>Swedish g
                                  > >>>Frisian k
                                  > >>>Swytzer -
                                  > >>>Yiddish sh
                                  > >>>etc.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2 other,
                                  > >>>although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                                  > >>>The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                                  > >>>But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >languages
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >ik, the
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >be "ig".
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >means "not",
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant "I".
                                  > >>>"Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>Cham
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                                  > >>><xipirho@> wrote:
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>>Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >info
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>up-
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>>an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>>rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >tenk
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>ar
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>>fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >said" ik
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>>tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >tu
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>sege.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>>Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >and "h" ar
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>>>OK sikker.
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >-------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  -----
                                  > >
                                  > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.22/512 - Release Date:
                                  1/11/2006
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
                                  ja. aver et iss naturALly in englisch. ;-) ... doesn t ... true, ... or ... in ... there ... language ... view. ... lig, ... don t ... you ... turns ... so I
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    ja. aver et iss naturALly in englisch. ;-)

                                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, I think it should be "sig" as well. *"Sik" with final -k
                                    doesn't
                                    > even exist in one of the source langages! German sich, Dutch zich,
                                    > and Scandinavian sig/seg, so where would one take that -k from then?
                                    >
                                    > Think of English daily, German täglich
                                    > English naturely, German natürlich
                                    > English ugly, German hässlich
                                    > etc etc
                                    >
                                    > and you'll realize that E -ly and not -like is the cognate here.
                                    >
                                    > At least I never heard of "give us our daylike bread", "that's
                                    true,
                                    > naturelike" or "what an uglike woman" ;-)
                                    >
                                    > Chambo
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > chamavian wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >Hei Stephan
                                    > > >
                                    > > >In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several
                                    or
                                    > > >most source languages into something else, it should have a
                                    > > >different consonant in FS as well. So:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > In the case of EN, -ly is used more often as an adverb marker and
                                    > not in
                                    > > the manner of the equivalents in other languages. Especially not
                                    in
                                    > a
                                    > > productive manner.
                                    > > But you will often find EN -like used in a manner more directly
                                    > > equivalent to those other suffixes. And "-like" is a productive
                                    > suffix.
                                    > > So in the case of *-lik, I think having a -k makes more sense.
                                    > >
                                    > > But in other cases, I think if we use -g in the 1st person
                                    > nominative
                                    > > pronoun, there would be other words which should follow the same
                                    > > pattern. So the 3rd person reflexive pronoun should be "sig" not
                                    > *sik
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because
                                    there
                                    > > >only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
                                    > > >ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
                                    > > >completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
                                    > > >incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as
                                    > Latin
                                    > > >or Old Irish.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
                                    > > >standable we have to start from what is already there with the
                                    > > >learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic
                                    language
                                    > > >and maybe one or two others.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
                                    > > >
                                    > > >"naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
                                    > > >
                                    > > >because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of
                                    view.
                                    > > >And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not
                                    > completely
                                    > > >regular too)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > If the second germanic consonant shift (the high german one) were
                                    > > totally consistant, all instances of *k would become *ch. This
                                    > doesn't
                                    > > seem to have happened in Standard German, but some dialects have
                                    > done it
                                    > > more totally. This is perhaps because Standard German is somewhat
                                    > of a
                                    > > conlang, an artificial merging of various dialects, some of which
                                    > have
                                    > > more completely undergone the consonant shift than others.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -
                                    lig,
                                    > > >and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers
                                    > of
                                    > > >those languages.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >See what I mean?
                                    > > >
                                    > > >And this is only about very few and very much used words, I
                                    don't
                                    > > >think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Cham
                                    > > >
                                    > > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>Hi Cham,
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>"ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that
                                    you
                                    > > >>pointed out.
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>But...
                                    > > >>In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k"
                                    > became
                                    > > >>"ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often
                                    turns
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >to EN
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>"sh" and DE "sch".
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>So this could also be FS:
                                    > > >>"naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation,
                                    so I
                                    > > >>left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
                                    > > >>"naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>Bye,
                                    > > >>Stephan
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>>Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >Maybe you
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>can just put it in our Files section?
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >living
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >pronoun
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
                                    > > >>>English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >[C] and
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
                                    > > >>>NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be defenitely
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >not -k,
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>but rather -g:
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>English -
                                    > > >>>German ch
                                    > > >>>Dutch k
                                    > > >>>Scandi g
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >won't
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>change:
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>English - (j?)
                                    > > >>>German ch
                                    > > >>>Dutch(+Afr) k
                                    > > >>>Danish g
                                    > > >>>LowSaxon k
                                    > > >>>Icelandic g
                                    > > >>>Norwegian - (j?)
                                    > > >>>Swedish g
                                    > > >>>Frisian k
                                    > > >>>Swytzer -
                                    > > >>>Yiddish sh
                                    > > >>>etc.
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2
                                    other,
                                    > > >>>although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
                                    > > >>>The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
                                    > > >>>But as most people here don't want to take too many source
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >languages
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >ik, the
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >be "ig".
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >means "not",
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik" meant
                                    "I".
                                    > > >>>"Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>Cham
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                                    > > >>><xipirho@> wrote:
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>>Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en bittken
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >info
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>up-
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>>an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>>rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé ik
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >tenk
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>ar
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>>fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >said" ik
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>>tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss swer
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >tu
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>sege.
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>
                                    > > >>>>Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >and "h" ar
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>>>OK sikker.
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >>>>
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                    --
                                    > -----
                                    > > >
                                    > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.22/512 - Release Date:
                                    > 1/11/2006
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • stefichjo
                                    ... I would try and say something like this if you would have made proposals that are content of Middelsprake in order to give your ideas more weight. So, no,
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
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                                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Don't go say I fooled you guys, or didn't you know that Chamavian and
                                      > your old buddy Ingmar were one and the same?

                                      I would try and say something like this if you would have made
                                      proposals that are content of Middelsprake in order to give your ideas
                                      more weight.

                                      So, no, I didn't know it was you. How could I? You were even behaving! ;-)

                                      > Yes, I think it should be "sig" as well. *"Sik" with final -k doesn't
                                      > even exist in one of the source langages! German sich, Dutch zich,
                                      > and Scandinavian sig/seg, so where would one take that -k from then?
                                      >
                                      > Think of English daily, German täglich
                                      > English naturely, German natürlich
                                      > English ugly, German hässlich
                                      > etc etc
                                      >
                                      > and you'll realize that E -ly and not -like is the cognate here.
                                      >
                                      > At least I never heard of "give us our daylike bread", "that's true,
                                      > naturelike" or "what an uglike woman" ;-)

                                      My first approachin FS was to have forms like "dig", "mig", "sig",
                                      like "dich", "mich" and "sich" in German. But I shortened them to
                                      "di", "mi" and "si". So, there's no "k" nor "g". End of the story,
                                      from my point of view.

                                      "lik" and "-lik" are both "pan-germanic" to me.

                                      Stephan
                                    • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
                                      Hehe. Ig begann tu tenk et war Ingmar wan ig lesd de schraivings over ig end ik . De fras By the way, ig is much more representative segd als en fakt
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 2, 2006
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                                        Hehe. Ig begann tu tenk et war Ingmar wan ig lesd de schraivings over
                                        "ig" end "ik". De fras "By the way, 'ig' is much more representative"
                                        segd als en fakt (nit, "ig tenk...") iss magwes typisch ingmar! ;-)
                                        ...end de "roerd" in dain e-mail mak et total klar...:-D


                                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Don't go say I fooled you guys, or didn't you know that Chamavian
                                        and
                                        > > your old buddy Ingmar were one and the same?
                                        >
                                        > I would try and say something like this if you would have made
                                        > proposals that are content of Middelsprake in order to give your
                                        ideas
                                        > more weight.
                                        >
                                        > So, no, I didn't know it was you. How could I? You were even
                                        behaving! ;-)
                                        >
                                        > > Yes, I think it should be "sig" as well. *"Sik" with final -k
                                        doesn't
                                        > > even exist in one of the source langages! German sich, Dutch
                                        zich,
                                        > > and Scandinavian sig/seg, so where would one take that -k from
                                        then?
                                        > >
                                        > > Think of English daily, German täglich
                                        > > English naturely, German natürlich
                                        > > English ugly, German hässlich
                                        > > etc etc
                                        > >
                                        > > and you'll realize that E -ly and not -like is the cognate here.
                                        > >
                                        > > At least I never heard of "give us our daylike bread", "that's
                                        true,
                                        > > naturelike" or "what an uglike woman" ;-)
                                        >
                                        > My first approachin FS was to have forms like "dig", "mig", "sig",
                                        > like "dich", "mich" and "sich" in German. But I shortened them to
                                        > "di", "mi" and "si". So, there's no "k" nor "g". End of the story,
                                        > from my point of view.
                                        >
                                        > "lik" and "-lik" are both "pan-germanic" to me.
                                        >
                                        > Stephan
                                        >
                                      • stefichjo
                                        Ja, ja. Mag wese. Aver fyr mi het is normal, dat wan ene skriv sin nam onder en bref, mot ik ne have twifelen ov de identitet fan dat person. Egal. Stephan ...
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                          Ja, ja. Mag wese. Aver fyr mi het is normal, dat wan ene skriv sin nam
                                          onder en bref, mot ik ne have twifelen ov de identitet fan dat person.
                                          Egal.

                                          Stephan

                                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                                          <xipirho@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hehe. Ig begann tu tenk et war Ingmar wan ig lesd de schraivings
                                          over
                                          > "ig" end "ik". De fras "By the way, 'ig' is much more
                                          representative"
                                          > segd als en fakt (nit, "ig tenk...") iss magwes typisch ingmar! ;-)
                                          > ...end de "roerd" in dain e-mail mak et total klar...:-D
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