Re: ig lyv dig
- --- In email@example.com, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
> In Dutch, this prefix is usually her-, or ver-:
> halen - to fetch
> herhalen -to repeat
holen - to fetch, to get
wiederholen - to repeat
> kennen - to knowDE:
> herkennen - to recognize (someone)
> erkennen - to recognize (a fact)
kennen - to know
(wieder)erkennen - to recognize (a place, a person, a thing)
(an)erkennen - to recognize (a fact)
> tellen - to count"vertellen" in Plattdütsch as well.
> vertellen - to tell
> denken - to thinkWhere does "wer-" ("ver-") come from?
> herdenken - to memorize
> For Folksprâk, I was thinking of a prefix weder- or wer-
But I like the idea of having a regular prefix very much. "weder" has
two sillables, "er-", "ver-", "fer-" and "her-" have only one.
I like "her-". In German, when it has the stress, it's also "her" (I
mark it with ´ now), but when the verb-stem has the stress there is
no "her-", but seemingly it turns to "er-", with a
more "metaphorical", less concrete meaning:
stéllen - to make stand, put
hérstellen - to confect, establish, fabricate, fashion, make,
erstéllen - to build, compile, construct, create, develop, erect,
establish, generate, issue, prepare, provide, write, make available
(Source: Leo Dictionary: http://dict.leo.org/?lang=en)
Where is the accent in Dutch?
> kenne = to knowSo "wer" (ver) is a short form of "weder" (veder)? This would be cool.
> wederkenne = to recognize
> or werkenne
Where is the accent in Dutch?
> tenke = to thinkVery interesting.
> wedertenke = to memorize
> or wertenke
> especially also when an element of repetition plays a role,
> comparable with the English prefix re-
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Moritz Macke" <morm83@y...> wrote:
> I think the main sense of "er-" is final, to finish something, or be
> in a new state after finishing something.
> erschießen, erschlagen, erstechen, erdrücken, ersticken, erwürgen,
> ertrinken, ertränken -> result in death
> from adjectives, "to become ...", "to make ..."
> erbleichen, erröten, erweichen, erstarken, erneuern, ermüden,
> erwärmen, erweitern etc. -> result in state decribed by the
Yes. In this sence DE "er-" seems to be a weakend form of DE "her-".
The same thing happens with DE "vor-", which turns to DE "ver-" when
vórstehen - to stand in front (rather litterally)
verstéhen - to understand (rather metaphrically)
hérstellen - to produce etc. (it's rather about putting things
erstéllen - to compile etc. (it's rather about manipulation,
> For "erleiden" the simple word "leiden" is probably a backformation
> from the compound word in German. The simple Germanic verb *lîþan
> meant "to travel, journey", from that is German "erleiden" formed
> "erfahren", "erleben". Literally probably "to experience by
> traveling", that was then confined to negative experiences
This "experience" is the result, again, I think.
> For other verbs also often vague meaning "to make a result, bring to
> an end" as you said.
> erreichen, erringen, erlangen, ersteigern, erschaffen, errichten,
> erfinden, ergeben, erbeuten, erwerben etc. are all result oriented.
It's always about results, bringing to "here".
> There are other more difficult to explain words but most seem to fit
> into this sense.
> It's similar to "ent-" in some cases I guess because it's originally
> the weaked form of "ur-", that may still come through in a few
"ent-" emphasizes more the aspect of "away from".
Here it's similar to the above "er-":
--- In email@example.com, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
> "Weer" = again, in older Dutch "weder".
> But Dutch "weer" can also mean "weather", older "weder".
> And "weer-" ("weder-") can mean against in compounds like
> weerstand, weerspreken, weerleggen etc.
> And we have "-weer" in brandweer, noodweer, etc.
DE Feuerweer(leute) - EN fire fighters
DE Notweer - DU noodweer (I suppose)
DE (sich) wehren - EN to resist
DE wehren - EN to weir
DE widersprechen - EN to contradict, disagree
DE Widerstand - EN resistance
DE widerlegen - EN to confute, disprove
DE Wetter - EN weather
? - EN whether
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
> > > > "ig lyv dig" - "I love you"
> > > > "ig mag dig" - "I like you"
> > > >
> > >
> > > Clarify...
> > What exactly is unclear? DE "ich mag" means both "I may" and "I
> > All I can do is to propose a germanism here.
> I don't understand this sentence. What do you mean
> "So I would discard the idea of expressing "like" by a derivation of
> "mag". But we could use "mag" directly as "like", just like in
If there is a subjunctive form of "mag", i.e. "mog" I see the one
word as a derivation of the other, or as a modification, variation.
Vowel shifts and consonant shifts lead to variations, modifications,
derivations. That's the idea behind it. Seemingly my word(s) isn't
appropriate, which one would you use?
> > And it's also the prefix used to express "to die/kill because of"
> > schieszen - to shoot
> > erschieszen - to shoot dead
> Yeah, so it's not entirely clear, I'd say...
It's about obtaining a result, though. Cf. above.
> > Fascinating. So "mag lide" is to "like like". ;-) (or "may
> No "enjoy suffer" =P
In fact, in DE we say "so lässt es sich aushalten" (this way you can
suffer it), meaning "it is quite pleasant". It's a colloquial way of
> > --- In email@example.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
> > > Hmmm, have you done your own translation of the Babel text, by
> > > way? There are some attempta, already...
> > Nope. Where is the original version?
> Among the "Files", I think...
I haven't found it under "Babelteksten" so far.
> OK, similar to Esperanto, then... I guess that is the "synthetic"
> method, differing from the "naturalistic method"
synthetic vs. naturalistic. OK.
But see: I (synthetic people) try to reach a natural appearance, and
you (naturalistic people) try to reach a _simple_ grammar, which
means that your grammar looks synthetic, too. Do you know what I
mean? Maybe these two approaches together can be an advantage for all
of us, and for Folksprak.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
> De system to söke old post wirke nik mennig licht!
> So wîd ig kande sê, Bill Courson ha sended al sîn berichte in 2001.
> De Folkspraak-Institut-site is okso fran 2001, magschee he
> interessere sig alrede lang nik mêr for Folksprâk, doch sîn site
> blîve dâr.
> In fall dat dis is wirklig so, det is en övel ting for de niu
Datt ig tenk og. Denn vi er de entig Folkspreker!
> Altîd wan folk söke up internet for "Folkspraak", dei schal kom to
> dat old site, mid dat old sprâk.
> For mi, dat is en extra grund to brûke nik mêr de nam Folkspraak
> dobbel <aa>.
> Ig gelöve dârfor dat wi schalde frage Yahoo to andere user grupnam
> okso, in FOLKSPRAK. Ig tenke nik dat FOLKSPRÂK mid circumflex is en
> gôd option for en grupnam up de nett, on wi ha okso ennoch nik
> besliuted over de spelling...
And ig vet nig ob vi ha beslytet ob vi voll tolerere bed, de
naturalistic and de synthetic method als en compromis for al (and ig
vet nig ob al vet, vatt method he gebruk).
De grop "Folksprak" besta ab august fan dis jar. Ig ha erstellt et...
du vet vann. Is et maglik at andere/vandel de nam fan en grop?
- I'm not convinced... the argument about wer- being closer to er- her-
re- should be taken into account as well, because it helps with the
recognitions of words.
Btw I looked up the Dutch prefix her- in the Nederlands Etymologisch
Woordenboek (De Vries), according to that it is from Northern French
dialects, that have "er-" for Standard French "re-", and it was took
over across the language border in the Southern Netherlands -
nowadays Flanders in Belgium. The h- was added, because in the
Southern Netherlands there has always been insecurity about where to
pronounce an h or not.
That latter fact is still true today, but it already shows in a
very famous old Dutch sentence, from around 1100:
"hebban olla vogala nestas bigunnan, hinase hic enda thu"
lit.: have all birds nests begun, except I and you.
hic = ic = ik
This sentence was written by a monk from West-Flanders or possibly
French Flanders, hence the h-confusion.
In that time, the North Sea Coast down to Calais was Dutch speaking.
In email@example.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...> wrote:
> Naah... I think there should be a word like wÃder/wÃ©der, and then
> word would be both a word in itself, and a prefix, just like in,Ã»t,
> Ã³ver, under, etc...and
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
> <ingmar.roerdinkholder@w...> wrote:
> > Yeah, but, however, "wer-" would be a nice intermediate form
> > between "weder-", "er-" and "her-". "Wer-" has the same length
> > rhythm as "er-/her-", and E. "re-", but shows the repetitionalelement
> > of "weder".wrote:
> > Ingmar
> > In email@example.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
> > It's just that the word got shortened in Dutch. I guess you canthink
> > it's cool, but I don't know a point for it in FS...be cool.
> > >So "wer" (ver) is a short form of "weder" (veder)? This would