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Re: ig lyv dig

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  • stefichjo
    ... DE: holen - to fetch, to get wiederholen - to repeat ... DE: kennen - to know (wieder)erkennen - to recognize (a place, a person, a thing) (an)erkennen -
    Message 1 of 33 , Dec 1, 2005
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      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
      <ingmar.roerdinkholder@w...> wrote:
      >
      > In Dutch, this prefix is usually her-, or ver-:
      >
      > halen - to fetch
      > herhalen -to repeat

      DE:
      holen - to fetch, to get
      wiederholen - to repeat

      > kennen - to know
      > herkennen - to recognize (someone)
      > but:
      > erkennen - to recognize (a fact)

      DE:
      kennen - to know
      (wieder)erkennen - to recognize (a place, a person, a thing)
      (an)erkennen - to recognize (a fact)

      > tellen - to count
      > vertellen - to tell

      "vertellen" in Plattdütsch as well.

      > denken - to think
      > herdenken - to memorize
      >
      > etc.
      >
      > For Folksprâk, I was thinking of a prefix weder- or wer-

      Where does "wer-" ("ver-") come from?
      But I like the idea of having a regular prefix very much. "weder" has
      two sillables, "er-", "ver-", "fer-" and "her-" have only one.

      I like "her-". In German, when it has the stress, it's also "her" (I
      mark it with ´ now), but when the verb-stem has the stress there is
      no "her-", but seemingly it turns to "er-", with a
      more "metaphorical", less concrete meaning:

      stéllen - to make stand, put
      hérstellen - to confect, establish, fabricate, fashion, make,
      maufacture, produce
      erstéllen - to build, compile, construct, create, develop, erect,
      establish, generate, issue, prepare, provide, write, make available

      (Source: Leo Dictionary: http://dict.leo.org/?lang=en)

      Where is the accent in Dutch?

      > kenne = to know
      > wederkenne = to recognize
      > or werkenne

      So "wer" (ver) is a short form of "weder" (veder)? This would be cool.

      Where is the accent in Dutch?

      > tenke = to think
      > wedertenke = to memorize
      > or wertenke
      >
      > especially also when an element of repetition plays a role,
      > comparable with the English prefix re-

      Very interesting.

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Moritz Macke" <morm83@y...> wrote:
      > I think the main sense of "er-" is final, to finish something, or be
      > in a new state after finishing something.
      >
      > erschießen, erschlagen, erstechen, erdrücken, ersticken, erwürgen,
      > ertrinken, ertränken -> result in death

      Yes.

      > from adjectives, "to become ...", "to make ..."
      > erbleichen, erröten, erweichen, erstarken, erneuern, ermüden,
      > erwärmen, erweitern etc. -> result in state decribed by the
      adjective.

      Yes. In this sence DE "er-" seems to be a weakend form of DE "her-".
      The same thing happens with DE "vor-", which turns to DE "ver-" when
      weakened.

      vórstehen - to stand in front (rather litterally)
      verstéhen - to understand (rather metaphrically)

      FS:
      forsta
      fersta

      hérstellen - to produce etc. (it's rather about putting things
      together)
      erstéllen - to compile etc. (it's rather about manipulation,
      configuration)

      FS?

      > For "erleiden" the simple word "leiden" is probably a backformation
      > from the compound word in German. The simple Germanic verb *lîþan
      > meant "to travel, journey", from that is German "erleiden" formed
      like
      > "erfahren", "erleben". Literally probably "to experience by
      > traveling", that was then confined to negative experiences
      for "erleiden"

      This "experience" is the result, again, I think.

      > For other verbs also often vague meaning "to make a result, bring to
      > an end" as you said.
      > erreichen, erringen, erlangen, ersteigern, erschaffen, errichten,
      > erfinden, ergeben, erbeuten, erwerben etc. are all result oriented.

      It's always about results, bringing to "here".

      > There are other more difficult to explain words but most seem to fit
      > into this sense.
      > It's similar to "ent-" in some cases I guess because it's originally
      > the weaked form of "ur-", that may still come through in a few
      cases.

      "ent-" emphasizes more the aspect of "away from".

      entgleisen
      entdecken
      entlehnen
      entkommen

      Here it's similar to the above "er-":

      entstehen

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
      <ingmar.roerdinkholder@w...> wrote:
      >
      > "Weer" = again, in older Dutch "weder".
      > But Dutch "weer" can also mean "weather", older "weder".
      > And "weer-" ("weder-") can mean against in compounds like
      > weerstand, weerspreken, weerleggen etc.
      > And we have "-weer" in brandweer, noodweer, etc.

      Interesting...

      DE Feuerweer(leute) - EN fire fighters
      DE Notweer - DU noodweer (I suppose)

      DE (sich) wehren - EN to resist
      DE wehren - EN to weir

      DE widersprechen - EN to contradict, disagree
      DE Widerstand - EN resistance
      DE widerlegen - EN to confute, disprove

      DE Wetter - EN weather

      ? - EN whether

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
      wrote:
      > > > > "ig lyv dig" - "I love you"
      > > > > "ig mag dig" - "I like you"
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > Clarify...
      > >
      > > What exactly is unclear? DE "ich mag" means both "I may" and "I
      like".
      > > All I can do is to propose a germanism here.
      > >
      >
      > I don't understand this sentence. What do you mean
      with "derivation"?
      > "So I would discard the idea of expressing "like" by a derivation of
      > "mag". But we could use "mag" directly as "like", just like in
      German."

      If there is a subjunctive form of "mag", i.e. "mog" I see the one
      word as a derivation of the other, or as a modification, variation.
      Vowel shifts and consonant shifts lead to variations, modifications,
      derivations. That's the idea behind it. Seemingly my word(s) isn't
      appropriate, which one would you use?

      > > And it's also the prefix used to express "to die/kill because of"
      > >
      > > schieszen - to shoot
      > > erschieszen - to shoot dead
      > >
      >
      > Yeah, so it's not entirely clear, I'd say...

      It's about obtaining a result, though. Cf. above.

      > > Fascinating. So "mag lide" is to "like like". ;-) (or "may
      suffer")
      > >
      >
      > No "enjoy suffer" =P

      True.

      In fact, in DE we say "so lässt es sich aushalten" (this way you can
      suffer it), meaning "it is quite pleasant". It's a colloquial way of
      putting it.

      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
      > wrote:
      > > > Hmmm, have you done your own translation of the Babel text, by
      the
      > > > way? There are some attempta, already...
      > >
      > > Nope. Where is the original version?
      > >
      >
      > Among the "Files", I think...

      I haven't found it under "Babelteksten" so far.

      > OK, similar to Esperanto, then... I guess that is the "synthetic"
      > method, differing from the "naturalistic method"

      synthetic vs. naturalistic. OK.

      But see: I (synthetic people) try to reach a natural appearance, and
      you (naturalistic people) try to reach a _simple_ grammar, which
      means that your grammar looks synthetic, too. Do you know what I
      mean? Maybe these two approaches together can be an advantage for all
      of us, and for Folksprak.

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
      <ingmar.roerdinkholder@w...> wrote:
      >
      > De system to söke old post wirke nik mennig licht!
      > So wîd ig kande sê, Bill Courson ha sended al sîn berichte in 2001.
      > De Folkspraak-Institut-site is okso fran 2001, magschee he
      > interessere sig alrede lang nik mêr for Folksprâk, doch sîn site
      > blîve dâr.
      > In fall dat dis is wirklig so, det is en övel ting for de niu
      > Folksprâk!

      Datt ig tenk og. Denn vi er de entig Folkspreker!

      > Altîd wan folk söke up internet for "Folkspraak", dei schal kom to
      > dat old site, mid dat old sprâk.
      >
      > For mi, dat is en extra grund to brûke nik mêr de nam Folkspraak
      mid
      > dobbel <aa>.
      >
      > Ig gelöve dârfor dat wi schalde frage Yahoo to andere user grupnam
      > okso, in FOLKSPRAK. Ig tenke nik dat FOLKSPRÂK mid circumflex is en
      > gôd option for en grupnam up de nett, on wi ha okso ennoch nik
      > besliuted over de spelling...

      And ig vet nig ob vi ha beslytet ob vi voll tolerere bed, de
      naturalistic and de synthetic method als en compromis for al (and ig
      vet nig ob al vet, vatt method he gebruk).

      De grop "Folksprak" besta ab august fan dis jar. Ig ha erstellt et...
      du vet vann. Is et maglik at andere/vandel de nam fan en grop?

      Greten,
      Stephan Schneider
    • Ingmar Roerdinkholder
      I m not convinced... the argument about wer- being closer to er- her- re- should be taken into account as well, because it helps with the recognitions of
      Message 33 of 33 , Dec 1, 2005
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        I'm not convinced... the argument about wer- being closer to er- her-
        re- should be taken into account as well, because it helps with the
        recognitions of words.

        Btw I looked up the Dutch prefix her- in the Nederlands Etymologisch
        Woordenboek (De Vries), according to that it is from Northern French
        dialects, that have "er-" for Standard French "re-", and it was took
        over across the language border in the Southern Netherlands -
        nowadays Flanders in Belgium. The h- was added, because in the
        Southern Netherlands there has always been insecurity about where to
        pronounce an h or not.

        That latter fact is still true today, but it already shows in a
        very famous old Dutch sentence, from around 1100:
        "hebban olla vogala nestas bigunnan, hinase hic enda thu"
        lit.: have all birds nests begun, except I and you.
        hic = ic = ik

        This sentence was written by a monk from West-Flanders or possibly
        French Flanders, hence the h-confusion.
        In that time, the North Sea Coast down to Calais was Dutch speaking.

        Ingmar


        In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...> wrote:
        >
        > Naah... I think there should be a word like wíder/wéder, and then
        the
        > word would be both a word in itself, and a prefix, just like in,
        ût,
        > óver, under, etc...
        >
        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Ingmar Roerdinkholder"
        > <ingmar.roerdinkholder@w...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Yeah, but, however, "wer-" would be a nice intermediate form
        > > between "weder-", "er-" and "her-". "Wer-" has the same length
        and
        > > rhythm as "er-/her-", and E. "re-", but shows the repetitional
        element
        > > of "weder".
        > >
        > > Ingmar
        > >
        > > In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
        wrote:
        > > It's just that the word got shortened in Dutch. I guess you can
        think
        > > it's cool, but I don't know a point for it in FS...
        > >
        > > >So "wer" (ver) is a short form of "weder" (veder)? This would
        be cool.
        > >
        >
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