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Latin words in Moritz Macke's proposal?

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  • wakuran_wakaran
    Hmmm, maybe too late to comment on, but I wondered about the examples of some words in Moritz Macke s vowel proposal: 1st, a short vowel in horn, rn is two
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 30, 2005
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      Hmmm, maybe too late to comment on, but I wondered about the examples
      of some words in Moritz Macke's vowel proposal:

      1st, a short vowel in horn, "rn" is two consonants in a row, though,
      so maybe that could be accepted, (unless we have the rule that when
      the 1st consonant is r, the vowel is long: woord, aars, waarning,
      hoorn, koorn käär(e)l(man, lad) etc.)
      Hmmm, when I think about this rule, it starts to make quite much sense...

      2nd, the stress/ long vowels for most Latin examples seem wrong, have
      these words been "nativized" or what is the reasoning behind this.
      This pronunciation seems weird in most cases, and I don't think the
      German pronunciation is that different from the Swedish...

      <i-> [i:] Gigant, Frid, Figur - (giant, peace, figure)
      <u> [u:] du, Natur, human - (you, nature, humane)

      (Why not gigant, figu:r, natu:r, huma:n ?)

      <ö-> [2:] grön, dösan, fölan - (green, doze, feel)

      I think I would choose "du:s" or "do:s" instead, but "d2:s" is okay...

      <ou> [o:U] Oug, Boum, Broud, Houved - (eye, tree, bread, head)
      I tried to pronounce this, and it seems quite good, although it might
      turn into a glide or something.

      <ie> [I@] diedan, Diev, dienan - (indicate, thief, serve)
      Maybe i:@ Just a comment about meaning, diedan-"indicate", not
      "interpret"? (Maybe depends on context, though...)
    • Moritz Macke
      ... sense... Heh, to be honest I put the whole thing together pretty quickly and didn t think anyone would look that closely at the words... The length rules
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 30, 2005
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        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...> wrote:
        >
        > Hmmm, maybe too late to comment on, but I wondered about the examples
        > of some words in Moritz Macke's vowel proposal:
        >
        > 1st, a short vowel in horn, "rn" is two consonants in a row, though,
        > so maybe that could be accepted, (unless we have the rule that when
        > the 1st consonant is r, the vowel is long: woord, aars, waarning,
        > hoorn, koorn käär(e)l(man, lad) etc.)
        > Hmmm, when I think about this rule, it starts to make quite much
        sense...

        Heh, to be honest I put the whole thing together pretty quickly and
        didn't think anyone would look that closely at the words...
        The length rules are not supposed to be that strict anyway since it
        varies a lot locally but are you saying the words you listed should
        have long vowel? They are all short in German...

        >
        > 2nd, the stress/ long vowels for most Latin examples seem wrong, have
        > these words been "nativized" or what is the reasoning behind this.
        > This pronunciation seems weird in most cases, and I don't think the
        > German pronunciation is that different from the Swedish...
        >
        > <i-> [i:] Gigant, Frid, Figur - (giant, peace, figure)
        > <u> [u:] du, Natur, human - (you, nature, humane)
        >
        > (Why not gigant, figu:r, natu:r, huma:n ?)

        You are right, they are wrong, I had some trouble finding long i and u
        that had not turned into diphtongs in German and Dutch so I went for
        loanwords but didn't think about it enough to make sure they are
        really long.
        I have some problems generally to tell which vowels are short unless
        they are followed by a double consonant. The i in "Figur", "Gigant"
        sure seems longer than in "Will", "still" but is not really a long
        vowel either. Maybe it's the difference between [i] and [I] I am
        hearing, I feel I am really a bit challenged when trying to figure out
        the sound I am hearing/saying...
        >
        > <ö-> [2:] grön, dösan, fölan - (green, doze, feel)
        >
        > I think I would choose "du:s" or "do:s" instead, but "d2:s" is okay...
        >
        > <ou> [o:U] Oug, Boum, Broud, Houved - (eye, tree, bread, head)
        > I tried to pronounce this, and it seems quite good, although it might
        > turn into a glide or something.

        It's supposed to be an "au" with "o" instead of "a" roughly, just
        saying simple [o:] works too though, a single "correct" pronunciation
        of FS will be pretty much impossible anyway since everyone would
        render it differently according to their language background.
        >
        > <ie> [I@] diedan, Diev, dienan - (indicate, thief, serve)
        > Maybe i:@ Just a comment about meaning, diedan-"indicate", not
        > "interpret"? (Maybe depends on context, though...)

        Yeah, well, I am not entirely clear on that sound myself yet, also the
        meanings I listed are really just what came to my head first, not a
        definitive meaning. Hmm, also I think I changed the spelling of
        "diedan" to "diudan" in my current language version, I really should
        update that file if people are actually looking at it, heh.
        Well, when I have more time again...
      • Roly Sookias
        ... Yeah, I think it would be [i] as as far as I know one says unstressed /i:/ as [i] for quickness in German (as opposed to [i:]), so Figur would be
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 30, 2005
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          Moritz Macke wrote:

          >
          >
          >You are right, they are wrong, I had some trouble finding long i and u
          >that had not turned into diphtongs in German and Dutch so I went for
          >loanwords but didn't think about it enough to make sure they are
          >really long.
          >I have some problems generally to tell which vowels are short unless
          >they are followed by a double consonant. The i in "Figur", "Gigant"
          >sure seems longer than in "Will", "still" but is not really a long
          >vowel either. Maybe it's the difference between [i] and [I] I am
          >hearing, I feel I am really a bit challenged when trying to figure out
          >the sound I am hearing/saying...
          >
          >
          Yeah, I think it would be [i] as as far as I know one says unstressed
          /i:/ as [i] for quickness in German (as opposed to [i:]), so "Figur"
          would be pronounced [fi"gu:6].

          >I really should
          >update that file if people are actually looking at it, heh.
          >Well, when I have more time again...
          >
          >
          >
          Heheh. I'm certainly looking at it! I even printed it out! ...and I
          liked your idea of <ou> (and /ou/) for PG /au/ where DE has /au/. I've
          used it from time to time and it'll be in one of my (2 or 3 fairly
          similar) proposals.
        • wakuran_wakaran
          ... Unless the r is followed by two vowels, such as Furst (German Prince ) fyrst or erst(?=first) To avoid exceptions, we could hava a schwa-like e inserted
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 1, 2005
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            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Moritz Macke" <morm83@y...> wrote:
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
            wrote:
            > >
            > > Hmmm, maybe too late to comment on, but I wondered about the examples
            > > of some words in Moritz Macke's vowel proposal:
            > >
            > > 1st, a short vowel in horn, "rn" is two consonants in a row, though,
            > > so maybe that could be accepted, (unless we have the rule that when
            > > the 1st consonant is r, the vowel is long: woord, aars, waarning,
            > > hoorn, koorn käär(e)l(man, lad) etc.)

            Unless the r is followed by two vowels, such as "Furst" (German
            "Prince") fyrst or erst(?=first)
            To avoid exceptions, we could hava a schwa-like e inserted to indicate
            the pronunciation aernest=serious(ae is an ae ligature.)

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%c3%83%c2%bcrst

            Just thinking aloud.

            > > Hmmm, when I think about this rule, it starts to make quite much
            > sense...
            >
            > Heh, to be honest I put the whole thing together pretty quickly and
            > didn't think anyone would look that closely at the words...
            > The length rules are not supposed to be that strict anyway since it
            > varies a lot locally but are you saying the words you listed should
            > have long vowel? They are all short in German...
            >

            Really, I know "Wort" have, but the others? In Swedish, these words
            have usually long vowels and retroflex consonants.

            (Also maybe "art"-(wise, way, method, manner) although there could be
            better choices, since this word is only found in German and
            Scandinavian, "Kunst" for English "art" )

            > >
            > > 2nd, the stress/ long vowels for most Latin examples seem wrong, have
            > > these words been "nativized" or what is the reasoning behind this.
            > > This pronunciation seems weird in most cases, and I don't think the
            > > German pronunciation is that different from the Swedish...
            > >
            > > <i-> [i:] Gigant, Frid, Figur - (giant, peace, figure)
            > > <u> [u:] du, Natur, human - (you, nature, humane)
            > >
            > > (Why not gigant, figu:r, natu:r, huma:n ?)
            >
            > You are right, they are wrong, I had some trouble finding long i and u
            > that had not turned into diphtongs in German and Dutch so I went for
            > loanwords but didn't think about it enough to make sure they are
            > really long.

            OK...

            > I have some problems generally to tell which vowels are short unless
            > they are followed by a double consonant. The i in "Figur", "Gigant"
            > sure seems longer than in "Will", "still" but is not really a long
            > vowel either. Maybe it's the difference between [i] and [I] I am
            > hearing, I feel I am really a bit challenged when trying to figure out
            > the sound I am hearing/saying...

            Maybe because of the stress?

            > >
            > > <ö-> [2:] grön, dösan, fölan - (green, doze, feel)
            > >
            > > I think I would choose "du:s" or "do:s" instead, but "d2:s" is okay...
            > >
            > > <ou> [o:U] Oug, Boum, Broud, Houved - (eye, tree, bread, head)
            > > I tried to pronounce this, and it seems quite good, although it might
            > > turn into a glide or something.
            >
            > It's supposed to be an "au" with "o" instead of "a" roughly, just
            > saying simple [o:] works too though, a single "correct" pronunciation
            > of FS will be pretty much impossible anyway since everyone would
            > render it differently according to their language background.

            Possible, unless there are courses in "correct pronunciation".

            > >
            > > <ie> [I@] diedan, Diev, dienan - (indicate, thief, serve)
            > > Maybe i:@ Just a comment about meaning, diedan-"indicate", not
            > > "interpret"? (Maybe depends on context, though...)
            >
            > Yeah, well, I am not entirely clear on that sound myself yet, also the
            > meanings I listed are really just what came to my head first, not a
            > definitive meaning. Hmm, also I think I changed the spelling of
            > "diedan" to "diudan" in my current language version, I really should
            > update that file if people are actually looking at it, heh.
            > Well, when I have more time again...

            Oh well, it's quite OK, generally, interesting to hear your comments,
            thanks for your reply, anyway.
          • Roly Sookias
            ... I m pretty sure they re all short in German as Moritz said, and in EN as you know the difference between short and long in a closed syllable before /r/
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 2, 2005
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              wakuran_wakaran wrote:

              >
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >Really, I know "Wort" have, but the others? In Swedish, these words
              >have usually long vowels and retroflex consonants.
              >
              >
              I'm pretty sure they're all short in German as Moritz said, and in EN as
              you know the difference between short and long in a closed syllable
              before /r/ doesn't really exist, so I'd have thought short would be
              sensible - quicker too! ;-)
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