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  • roerdinkholder_ingmar
    Hi David. I just listened to your ui-file ;-) I can give you a few tips about how to pronounce Dutch ui. The way you pronounced it in the file is good to
    Message 1 of 87 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Hi David. I just listened to your ui-file ;-)

      I can give you a few tips about how to pronounce Dutch ui.
      The way you pronounced it in the file is good to understand,
      but to me -and other Dutchies I guess too - it sounds like
      "heus - ik ging naar het heus"

      So probably [2y] isn't the right way to describe <ui>, because Dutch
      <eu> is too close to that, and <neus> [n2:is] doesn't rhyme to
      <huis>.

      The first element in the diphthong <ui> is closer to German short
      <ö>, or even to short <a>.
      I sometimes give the advise to foreign people who really have
      trouble with <ui>, just to say short <a> [a] first, and then <u> [y],
      then you'll get [hays], which is pretty close to <ui>.
      But [höys] is the real thing.

      Good luck!
      Ingmar


      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@x> wrote:
      > I actually meant [2Y] for PG long u. But I guess for either it is a
      > difficult sound. When I hear people who know "a little bit of
      Dutch"
      > say the "ui" sound, the say it as [OI] (like English boy). I think
      > this is what they teach (or accept) in Night School Dutch classes.
      >
      > In my Eyewitness Travel Guide Dutch Phrase Book (I. Laponder & JT
      > Beckenridge, Dorling Kindersley, London 1997), they use say "use
      ow as
      > in cow" for the "ui" phoneme. In my experience phrase books don't
      even
      > attempt to teach correct pronunciation. They map sounds from the
      > native language to the foreign one in such a way as to maintain the
      > relationship of phonemes, but not to pronounce exactly correctly.
      >
      > Hmm I will post a sound file in the files section with my attempts
      at
      > "ui" and you Dutchies (or Belgies) can tell me if I am even close.
      >
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Jan-Willem Benjamins
      > <benjaminsjw@y...> wrote:
      > > This is generally true. I just wished to add that my wife (who is
      > > russian) had no problems with this sound.
      > > By the way: it is my impression that foreigners have less
      problems
      > > learning flemish than standard-dutch.
      > >
      > > Jan-Willem
      > >
      > > --- roerdinkholder_ingmar <ingmar.roerdinkholder@w...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Yes, Dutch ui is one of the most difficult sounds for
      foreigners to
      > > > learn. I work with foreign people from all over the world
      daily who
      > > > come to live in the Netherlands and who are learning Dutch at
      > > > school, and <ui> becoms usually something like [2:], [au],
      [ai],
      > > > [oi] in their mouths. So [2y] for PG au has no use...
      > > >
      > > > Ingmar
      > > >
      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@x>
      wrote:
      > > > > I once tried to objectively establish what the mean sound of
      this
      > > > long
      > > > > u was among the source language. I plotted the sounds in the
      4
      > > > langs
      > > > > on a 2D matrix with Front-back on one axis, close-open on
      the
      > > > other.
      > > > > You will see a similar matrix on an IPA chart. I then worked
      out
      > > > the x
      > > > > and y co-ordinates for the average. I divided each sound
      into a 2
      > > > > parts, treating the long u sounds as a dipthong. That is
      Scandy
      > > > [}:]
      > > > > was treated as [}}].
      > > > > So I was able to establish the average vowel sound for both
      the
      > > > first
      > > > > and second part of the sound.
      > > > > The biggest hole in my methodology that I now see, is I did
      not
      > > > > consider the rounded-unrounded dimension, which would add a
      z axis
      > > > to
      > > > > the matrix. I might some time re-caculate the data with that
      in
      > > > mind.
      > > > > Bizarrely, or perhaps serendipitously, the average sound was
      very
      > > > > close to [2Y]] which is the sound of standard Dutch "ui".
      > > > > For this reason, I would consider [2Y] a good candidate for
      this
      > > > > phoneme. It's also quite close to the German "äu" or "eu"
      phoneme.
      > > > > The biggest disadvantage I can see for this sound, it that
      it is
      > > > quite
      > > > > hard for us foreigners to pronounce.
      > > > > Could some of the Dutch speakers tell us what they think of
      this?
      > > > Is
      > > > > the "ui" sound particularly difficult for foreign speakers
      of
      > > > Dutch to
      > > > > master?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ___________________________________________________________
      > > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all
      new
      > Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
    • stefichjo
      Yeah, well, then I will use -e . I have already eliminated a case system in my FS, by the way. Bye, Stephan ... whereas persons is ... point is ... in ...
      Message 87 of 87 , Aug 5, 2005
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        Yeah, well, then I will use "-e".

        I have already eliminated a case system in my FS, by the way.

        Bye,
        Stephan

        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Jan-Willem Benjamins
        <benjaminsjw@y...> wrote:
        >
        > --- stefichjo <sts@s...> wrote:
        >
        > > "people" is the (collective) plural of "person",
        whereas "persons" is
        > > the countable plural of "person". The idea of countable<-
        >collective
        > > exists in english. This was one point I wanted to show (this
        point is
        > > about _concept_).
        >
        > Okay, so the _concept_ exists in english, but it is _not_ reflected
        in
        > the grammar. If you want a collective word for "person", you take
        the
        > word "people". That doesn't mean, in my opinion, that "people" is a
        > plural of "person", in much the same way as "countryside" is not a
        > collective plural of "farm".
        >
        > > The other point is that in German there are different plural
        forms
        > > (this point is about _form_) (Männer <-> Mannen, Wörter <->
        Worte).
        > > In FS I wanted to relate form and concept. This is my attempt to
        save
        > > both form and concept, otherwise you would just add "-s" to
        > > everything that is plural, and I find that some salt would be
        missing
        > > in our "soup".
        >
        > The grammar of any auxlang will be simplified. I personally like the
        > case-system of german, as it adds so much flexibility to the
        language,
        > but I think it would be silly to introduce it into FS, as no other
        > sourcelang (with the exception of Icelandic) has anything similar.
        > Same goes for the countable<->collective distinction (form-wise).
        You
        > can hardly call it common in the sourcelangs.
        >
        > > As I stated before, there is no need that I insist on this plural
        > > system. My nouns (until now) don't end in "e", so "e" might be a
        > > perfect plural ending for me. (German: Ding -> Dinge (FS: thing -
        >
        > > thinge)).
        >
        > That sounds absolutely fine.
        >
        > Jan-Willem
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ___________________________________________________________
        > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all
        new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
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