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RE: [folkspraak] Re: Grammatical Comparisons

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  • Dan Dawes
    Unfortunately, the plan to construct a mutually intelligible inter-germanic lingua franca bogs down after a promising start. While there is a solid core of
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 17 10:15 AM
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      Unfortunately, the plan to construct a mutually intelligible inter-germanic
      lingua franca bogs down after a promising start. While there is a solid core
      of mutually intelligible cognates, much of the modern shared vocabulary is
      Latin and Greek based, and the stock of mutually intelligible words from
      proto-Germanic is rather limited.
      THIS IS TRUE AND A BIG REASON WHY IT BOGS DOWN.

      The biggest areas of vocabulary divergence
      among the Germanic languages is in common words like the prepositions,
      common
      adjectives, and fundamental verbs. Common idioms and other expressions vary
      dramatically.
      INDEED.
    • Dan Dawes
      Basically when I put together the proposed Folkspraak grammar I just got through studying a number of texts about interlingua. The Folkspraak grammar is
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 17 10:26 AM
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        Basically when I put together the proposed Folkspraak grammar I just got
        through studying a number of texts about interlingua. The Folkspraak
        grammar is heavily modeled from the Interlingua approach to grammar. Of
        course there are some arbitrary choices made just as there are in
        interlingua, but the spirit is identical.

        The harder part is vocabulary. The interlingua vocabulary was put together
        essentially by a single leader, Dr. Gode if I remember correctly, and then
        only after a great deal of hard work and a lot of time. Folkspraak so far
        does not have any one who is so qualified and dedicated to put together a
        complete dictionary on such reasonable linguistic principles.

        I am led to believe that Interlingua is already for romance language
        speakers, what we would hope Folkspraak to be for germanic speakers. As
        truly pan-romance as Interlingua is, it still is not well known in the
        romance language countries and certainly is not a serious competitor to
        English as a lingua franca.

        Don't look now, but the germanic lingua franca is English.

        Dan


        -----Original Message-----
        From: paul lecorde [mailto:paullecorde1@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:21 AM
        To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: Grammatical Comparisons



        > I thought it should be a Germanic Interlingua. I say it should be
        > immediately understandable to anybody who speaks two Germanic
        > languages, and very easy to learn for anybody with a Germanic mother
        > tongue.

        That's what I thought too. And if that is true why
        not apply the same principles as Interlingua. Use the
        words the sources languages have in common for the
        vocabulary and get rid of any traits that all the
        source languages do not share for the grammar?

        Paul




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      • William G Beazley
        I understand your motives. I recently vacationed in Sweden which is cool when you 25. I spent effort in trying to learn as much of the language as I could
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 17 10:51 AM
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          I understand your motives.

          I recently vacationed in Sweden which is cool when you 25. I spent effort in
          trying to learn as much of the language as I could before I went.

          I am not language prone in the sense I don't start with a new language I
          combine it with the one I am using, I continually try to make cognates in
          English.

          Swedish: Jag ar Du ar,
          English: I? art , Thou art.

          I have no problem swithing back to that, it is still used in parts of New
          England.

          So I began to see that there is this common thematic thread the could easily
          bind us.

          I then began to look into the idea of not creating another language but
          creating a cognate word list so things could be written in a way that is very
          translatable.

          I stumbled across Basic English, which is SO 50's!!!!

          Then I found this!! Of course there seemed to be conflicts in words past the
          very basic ones.

          I just think the goal should be more humble, not to include exclude but to
          find the most common Germanic intercomm we can.

          Of course we all use nongermanic words and I must say that we should use those
          if it is the best choice however we should give extra points to
          Germanic words in decisions.

          I think that in all languages I should be I..... less work.


          Dan Dawes wrote:

          > Basically when I put together the proposed Folkspraak grammar I just got
          > through studying a number of texts about interlingua. The Folkspraak
          > grammar is heavily modeled from the Interlingua approach to grammar. Of
          > course there are some arbitrary choices made just as there are in
          > interlingua, but the spirit is identical.
          >
          > The harder part is vocabulary. The interlingua vocabulary was put together
          > essentially by a single leader, Dr. Gode if I remember correctly, and then
          > only after a great deal of hard work and a lot of time. Folkspraak so far
          > does not have any one who is so qualified and dedicated to put together a
          > complete dictionary on such reasonable linguistic principles.
          >
          > I am led to believe that Interlingua is already for romance language
          > speakers, what we would hope Folkspraak to be for germanic speakers. As
          > truly pan-romance as Interlingua is, it still is not well known in the
          > romance language countries and certainly is not a serious competitor to
          > English as a lingua franca.
          >
          > Don't look now, but the germanic lingua franca is English.
          >
          > Dan
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: paul lecorde [mailto:paullecorde1@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:21 AM
          > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: Grammatical Comparisons
          >
          > > I thought it should be a Germanic Interlingua. I say it should be
          > > immediately understandable to anybody who speaks two Germanic
          > > languages, and very easy to learn for anybody with a Germanic mother
          > > tongue.
          >
          > That's what I thought too. And if that is true why
          > not apply the same principles as Interlingua. Use the
          > words the sources languages have in common for the
          > vocabulary and get rid of any traits that all the
          > source languages do not share for the grammar?
          >
          > Paul
          >
          > -------------------------------------------------------------
          > Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html
          >
          > Browse the draft word lists!
          > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
          > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
          >
          > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
          > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          > Browse the draft word lists!
          > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
          > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
          >
          > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
          > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

          --

          Will Beazley '[Image]'
          Systems Administrator Equator Technologies
          FON: 512.502.2003 |EML: mailto:beazley@...
          FAX: 512.231.8108 |PAG: 888.213.7053






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • the Keenans
          ... I m glad folkpraak is on again :) To the point however....... If we are trying to recreate proto-germanic, then, we must eliminate the latin and greek
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 17 4:18 PM
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            Dan Dawes wrote:
            >
            > Unfortunately, the plan to construct a mutually intelligible
            > inter-germanic
            > lingua franca bogs down after a promising start. While there is a
            > solid core
            > of mutually intelligible cognates, much of the modern shared
            > vocabulary is
            > Latin and Greek based, and the stock of mutually intelligible words
            > from
            > proto-Germanic is rather limited.
            > THIS IS TRUE AND A BIG REASON WHY IT BOGS DOWN.
            >

            I'm glad folkpraak is on again :)

            To the point however.......

            If we are trying to recreate proto-germanic, then, we must eliminate the
            latin and greek influence.

            If we are trying to create a modern laqnguage, can't the Latin and greek
            stuff stay?
            all modern european languages have it. why not our folkspraak then?

            I was under the impression myself, that, we were creating a modern
            language. The latin and greek stuf doesn't bother me.

            As far as the source language problem let's stick to what the 'charter'
            says.

            At the end of the last 'Folkspraak rush', we seemed to have settled on a
            'You do it your way and I'll do it my way' solution. The idea was, as in
            natural languages, to let common usage decide what would be considered
            correct.

            On the grammar point..... I like the idea of doing the grammar the same
            as making the words. What is most common?

            -Duke
          • Dan Dawes
            If we are trying to create a modern laqnguage, can t the Latin and greek stuff stay? all modern european languages have it. why not our folkspraak then? RIGHT
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 17 4:40 PM
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              If we are trying to create a modern laqnguage, can't the Latin and greek
              stuff stay?
              all modern european languages have it. why not our folkspraak then?
              RIGHT ON!

              I was under the impression myself, that, we were creating a modern
              language. The latin and greek stuf doesn't bother me.
              ME NEITHER.

              At the end of the last 'Folkspraak rush', we seemed to have settled on a
              'You do it your way and I'll do it my way' solution. The idea was, as in
              natural languages, to let common usage decide what would be considered
              correct.
              YEAH, BUT WE NEED A SHAKESPEARE THAT WILL DEFINE THE USUAGE FOR US BY
              WRITING SOMETHING THE PAN GERMANIC WORLD WILL CARE ENOUGH ABOUT TO READ AND
              HENCE LEARN THE LANGUAGE THAT IS BEING DEFINED BY SUCH USAGE.
              FOLKSPRAAK AS A LIVING LANGUAGE IS LOOKING FOR A REASON TO EXIST, WHEN
              QUITE FRANKLY ENGLISH SEEMS TO BE THE PAN-GERMANIC LANGUAGE AMOUNG GERMANIC
              SPEAKERS.
              AS A HOBBY LANGUAGE IT HAS US LANGUAGE FREAKS. OUR BEST HOPE IS TO COME UP
              WITH SOMETHING THAT RECOMMENDS ITSELF FOR INCLUSION INTO ENGLISH. THEN WE
              GET INTO THE WORLD OF BASIC OR INTERNATIONAL ENGLISH, WHICH IS MAYBE WHERE
              WE ONE-WORLD-LANGUAGE ZEALOTS OUGHT TO BE MUDDLING?
            • bribri56@aol.com
              We should keep the KISS principle (Keep it simple, stupid!) in mind with Folkspraak, or you can go crazy. My word lists have gotten out of hand, especially
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 17 10:50 PM
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                We should keep the KISS principle (Keep it simple, stupid!) in mind with
                Folkspraak, or you can go crazy. My word lists have gotten out of hand,
                especially with German and Dutch. Not being even remotely fluent in either, I
                don't recognize the shades of difference among the possible translations for
                a given word, or know which are the common or preferred terms in any of the
                languages except English. Some are quite straightforward: Address book (eng),
                Adreßbuch (ger), adressenboekje (dut), Adressbok (swe), adressebog (dan),
                Adressebok (nor), Addressubók (ice), for which I'd coin the term Adressbok.
                But what to do with, for example: Lane, Spur, rijstrook, Fil, bane,
                Kjørefelt, and Akrein? I kind of like this neologism - smalweg (narrow road).
                I have no idea whether that would be O.K. (which I vote should be "O.K." in
                Folkspraak) to a speaker of any of the real languages, but it conveys the
                point sensibly. I think that would be better than using some Folkspraakified
                spelling of Lane (Lein, Lejn, Leiin???) or Spur (Spur???) just because they
                are from the dominant English and German terms. The approach of coining new
                terms by compounding basic words is fun, too.

                On a different note, I started using the shareware program Ergane from the
                Travlang website - you can reach it from the dictionaries.travlang.com page.
                This program uses Esperanto as a bridge language between the many languages
                available for translating. So if you use Ergane to translate from say, Dutch
                to German, you'll be actually translating from Dutch to Esperanto to German.
                There are pitfalls in this approach, but it is free, and the vocabulary files
                CAN be translated into your word processor or spreadsheet program : ) .

                farvel tu necste tid,
                Brian


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Andreas Beer
                Hello folks, ... I somehow agree with that statement. It would be great, if someone would just write a longer text. This is hard work, I know, and I don t have
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 18 6:36 AM
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                  Hello folks,

                  > BUT WE NEED A SHAKESPEARE
                  I somehow agree with that statement. It would be great, if someone would
                  just write a longer text. This is hard work, I know, and I don't have the time,
                  but without, we will be bickering about single words for a long time, without
                  any bigger result. Why not start with the classic conlang-text - the story
                  about the tower of bable....?

                  cu
                  Andreas
                • the Keenans
                  ... In the experience I had making Inter-Celtic, I looked at how the word translated into English and then I looked for words from the source languages that
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 18 2:31 PM
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                    bribri56@... wrote:
                    >
                    > We should keep the KISS principle (Keep it simple, stupid!) in mind
                    > with
                    > Folkspraak, or you can go crazy. My word lists have gotten out of
                    > hand,
                    > especially with German and Dutch. Not being even remotely fluent in
                    > either, I
                    > don't recognize the shades of difference among the possible
                    > translations for
                    > a given word, or know which are the common or preferred terms in any
                    > of the
                    > languages except English. Some are quite straightforward: Address book
                    > (eng),
                    > Adreßbuch (ger), adressenboekje (dut), Adressbok (swe), adressebog
                    > (dan),
                    > Adressebok (nor), Addressubók (ice), for which I'd coin the term
                    > Adressbok.
                    > But what to do with, for example: Lane, Spur, rijstrook, Fil, bane,
                    > Kjørefelt, and Akrein? I kind of like this neologism - smalweg (narrow
                    > road).
                    > I have no idea whether that would be O.K. (which I vote should be
                    > "O.K." in
                    > Folkspraak) to a speaker of any of the real languages, but it conveys
                    > the
                    > point sensibly. I think that would be better than using some
                    > Folkspraakified
                    > spelling of Lane (Lein, Lejn, Leiin???) or Spur (Spur???) just because
                    > they
                    > are from the dominant English and German terms.

                    In the experience I had making Inter-Celtic, I looked at how the word
                    translated into English and then I looked for words from the source
                    languages that looked like the word I wanted. This often gave a shade of
                    meaning that was slightly different. Like road and lane. In my
                    Inter-Celtic endeavor I wouldn't have had two different words for lane
                    and road, because I might have already used one of those words for a
                    word meaning something close enough. This means that to the native ear
                    it might sound a little wierd; 'He is operating his buggy on the way
                    presently and will appear forthwith'

                    But guess what it's a foreign language. It has to sound strange. That's
                    one of the definitions of the word foreign. :) We will succeed if it
                    is somewhat familiar to speakers of all the source languages, and
                    thereby make it easy to learn.

                    For example in Welsh there is a word: beius which means faulty or
                    blameworthy and in Irish there is: baois which means folly or
                    foolishness

                    I had the Irish word first, but the Welsh has a different word for
                    folly, foolishness.
                    I srtarted looking for a welsh word that looks like baois (It helps to
                    know how to pronounce this stuff) and found That the definition of beius
                    is close enough to baois that I could use it. I would not have found it
                    had I insisted on trying to translate my English meaning into Welsh. I
                    find this subterfuge very useful

                    -Duke
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