Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

-'s possessive form

Expand Messages
  • r.collins@softhome.net
    Hi, I came across the Folkspraak webpage a few days ago, and find the idea intriguing. While reading the grammar (0.5.2), I noticed that all possessive forms
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
      Hi,

      I came across the Folkspraak webpage a few days ago, and find the
      idea intriguing.

      While reading the grammar (0.5.2), I noticed that all possessive
      forms would made by using the preposition `von', as in `der Buk von
      John', rather than an analogy of `John's book'.

      I would have thought that the latter way was more Germanic, the
      former being more French. Is there a reason for doing it this way?

      Thanks,

      Richard Collins.
    • bribri56@aol.com
      As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error, or common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of von are: used in
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
        As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error, or
        common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of 'von' are: used in
        German, obvious to Dutch speakers, recognizable to many English speakers.
        Cons: one more preposition to learn, " von " takes longer to type than "'s",
        and "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
        (which?).

        At this point, I think of Folkspraak as a type of pidgin, with
        characteristics of the Ga:starbeiterdeutsch spoken by many guest workers in
        Germany, or the 'foreigner talk' used by native speakers when dealing with
        tourists and others with only a rudimentary knowledge of the target language.
        Only problem is, there are several target languages. Finding the common core
        is the trick, and the basic principles laid down in the charter do a pretty
        good job, though not a perfect one. If Folkspraak gets past the early pidgin
        stage, it will stabilize in vocabulary, spelling, and grammar, and then it'll
        take off. But not without the level of communication we had a year or so ago!

        Brian


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • William Beazley
        back from the brink I see. I haven t seen any traffice on this.. Is folkspraak dead? If its not and we could produce a anewer release I would humur the idea
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
          back from the brink I see. I haven't seen any traffice on this..

          Is folkspraak dead? If its not and we could produce a anewer release
          I would humur the idea of writing a simple folkpraak to english
          translator.


          bribri56@... wrote:
          >
          > As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error, or
          > common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of 'von' are: used in
          > German, obvious to Dutch speakers, recognizable to many English speakers.
          > Cons: one more preposition to learn, " von " takes longer to type than "'s",
          > and "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
          > (which?).
          >
          > At this point, I think of Folkspraak as a type of pidgin, with
          > characteristics of the Ga:starbeiterdeutsch spoken by many guest workers in
          > Germany, or the 'foreigner talk' used by native speakers when dealing with
          > tourists and others with only a rudimentary knowledge of the target language.
          > Only problem is, there are several target languages. Finding the common core
          > is the trick, and the basic principles laid down in the charter do a pretty
          > good job, though not a perfect one. If Folkspraak gets past the early pidgin
          > stage, it will stabilize in vocabulary, spelling, and grammar, and then it'll
          > take off. But not without the level of communication we had a year or so ago!
          >
          > Brian
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > Browse the draft word lists!
          > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
          > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
          >
          > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
          > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

          --
          Will Beazley
          Systems Administrator Equator Technologies
          FON: 512.502.2003 |EML: mailto:beazley@...
          FAX: 512.231.8108 |PAG: 888.213.7053
        • William Beazley
          on second thought judging my poor spelling maybe that would be a bad idea :) ... -- Will Beazley Systems Administrator Equator Technologies FON: 512.502.2003
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
            on second thought judging my poor spelling maybe that would be a bad
            idea :)

            William Beazley wrote:
            >
            > back from the brink I see. I haven't seen any traffice on this..
            >
            > Is folkspraak dead? If its not and we could produce a anewer release
            > I would humur the idea of writing a simple folkpraak to english
            > translator.
            >
            > bribri56@... wrote:
            > >
            > > As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error, or
            > > common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of 'von' are: used in
            > > German, obvious to Dutch speakers, recognizable to many English speakers.
            > > Cons: one more preposition to learn, " von " takes longer to type than "'s",
            > > and "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
            > > (which?).
            > >
            > > At this point, I think of Folkspraak as a type of pidgin, with
            > > characteristics of the Ga:starbeiterdeutsch spoken by many guest workers in
            > > Germany, or the 'foreigner talk' used by native speakers when dealing with
            > > tourists and others with only a rudimentary knowledge of the target language.
            > > Only problem is, there are several target languages. Finding the common core
            > > is the trick, and the basic principles laid down in the charter do a pretty
            > > good job, though not a perfect one. If Folkspraak gets past the early pidgin
            > > stage, it will stabilize in vocabulary, spelling, and grammar, and then it'll
            > > take off. But not without the level of communication we had a year or so ago!
            > >
            > > Brian
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > > Browse the draft word lists!
            > > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
            > > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
            > >
            > > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
            > > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            > --
            > Will Beazley
            > Systems Administrator Equator Technologies
            > FON: 512.502.2003 |EML: mailto:beazley@...
            > FAX: 512.231.8108 |PAG: 888.213.7053
            >
            >
            > Browse the draft word lists!
            > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
            > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
            >
            > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
            > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

            --
            Will Beazley
            Systems Administrator Equator Technologies
            FON: 512.502.2003 |EML: mailto:beazley@...
            FAX: 512.231.8108 |PAG: 888.213.7053
          • r.collins@softhome.net
            ... I speak good English and German, as well as rudimentary Swedish that I learnt from the web (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1290/), and it seems
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
              --- In folkspraak@y..., bribri56@a... wrote:
              > "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
              > (which?).

              I speak good English and German, as well as rudimentary Swedish that
              I learnt from the web
              (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1290/), and it seems that
              all three can and do say `John's book'. Assuming that it is also
              covered in the other languages, I feel it would be good to include
              such a thing in Folkspraak.

              - Richard Collins.
            • Dan Dawes
              I wrote the grammar outline, so I can respond. The idea is to make the grammar as simple as possible and to pick the most basic ideas which are common to
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
                I wrote the grammar outline, so I can respond. The idea is to make the
                grammar as simple as possible and to pick the most basic ideas which are
                common to English and German. German has the genitive case, English does
                not. English uses "'s" German does not. Both English and German can
                understand, "das Buch von Johannes" to mean "John's book".

                Dan Dawes
                19900 MacArthur Blvd., Ste. 1150
                Irvine, California 92612
                949 223 9600
                dawes@...


                -----Original Message-----
                From: r.collins@... [mailto:r.collins@...]
                Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 5:17 AM
                To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [folkspraak] -'s possessive form


                Hi,

                I came across the Folkspraak webpage a few days ago, and find the
                idea intriguing.

                While reading the grammar (0.5.2), I noticed that all possessive
                forms would made by using the preposition `von', as in `der Buk von
                John', rather than an analogy of `John's book'.

                I would have thought that the latter way was more Germanic, the
                former being more French. Is there a reason for doing it this way?

                Thanks,

                Richard Collins.



                Browse the draft word lists!
                http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html

                Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Dan Dawes
                I don t think Folkspraak will ever be more than a hobby language for a few word/grammar addicts like us, but it is fun and it makes a valid point about
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
                  I don't think Folkspraak will ever be more than a hobby language for a few
                  word/grammar addicts like us, but it is fun and it makes a valid point about
                  creating a community with a pan-Germanic language.

                  If there is an international language it is English. What we need is a
                  pidgin English that has some formal support so that all Europeans and others
                  can use. The first thing we do is to kill the lawyers and then reform the
                  spelling of English to be entirely phonetic, though I admit that fonetik
                  English dreivs mi nutz. Then again I am too old and am from the archaic
                  lost generation. The next generation must be phonetic speakers. Then we
                  ruthlessly eliminate all irregularities from the language and its grammar.
                  Gone forever is our favorite am, are, is . . . I be for that.

                  My proposal is for a group of non-native English speakers to formulate
                  Folklish along the above lines and write a few Nobel Prize winner novels,
                  plays and books, and do all business transactions with it to make it the
                  language you have to use, if you want to get what you need.

                  Make Folklish easy for non-English speakers to learn, in other words
                  whatever it is the makes English difficult to learn and use as a second
                  language, get rid of it and put something in its place that is easy to
                  learn, remember and use.

                  Dan Dawes


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: bribri56@... [mailto:bribri56@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 6:38 AM
                  To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [folkspraak] -'s possessive form


                  As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error, or
                  common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of 'von' are: used in
                  German, obvious to Dutch speakers, recognizable to many English speakers.
                  Cons: one more preposition to learn, " von " takes longer to type than "'s",
                  and "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
                  (which?).

                  At this point, I think of Folkspraak as a type of pidgin, with
                  characteristics of the Ga:starbeiterdeutsch spoken by many guest workers in
                  Germany, or the 'foreigner talk' used by native speakers when dealing with
                  tourists and others with only a rudimentary knowledge of the target
                  language.
                  Only problem is, there are several target languages. Finding the common core
                  is the trick, and the basic principles laid down in the charter do a pretty
                  good job, though not a perfect one. If Folkspraak gets past the early pidgin
                  stage, it will stabilize in vocabulary, spelling, and grammar, and then
                  it'll
                  take off. But not without the level of communication we had a year or so
                  ago!

                  Brian


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  Browse the draft word lists!
                  http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                  http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html

                  Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                  http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Dan Dawes
                  Write a translator between standard English and International English, aka Folklish. (Reit e transletor betwin standard English and Internashanul English.)
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
                    Write a translator between standard English and International English, aka
                    Folklish. (Reit e transletor betwin standard English and Internashanul
                    English.)

                    Dan Dawes


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: beazley@... [mailto:beazley@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 9:17 AM
                    To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [folkspraak] -'s possessive form


                    back from the brink I see. I haven't seen any traffice on this..

                    Is folkspraak dead? If its not and we could produce a anewer release
                    I would humur the idea of writing a simple folkpraak to english
                    translator.


                    bribri56@... wrote:
                    >
                    > As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error,
                    or
                    > common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of 'von' are: used
                    in
                    > German, obvious to Dutch speakers, recognizable to many English speakers.
                    > Cons: one more preposition to learn, " von " takes longer to type than
                    "'s",
                    > and "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
                    > (which?).
                    >
                    > At this point, I think of Folkspraak as a type of pidgin, with
                    > characteristics of the Ga:starbeiterdeutsch spoken by many guest workers
                    in
                    > Germany, or the 'foreigner talk' used by native speakers when dealing with
                    > tourists and others with only a rudimentary knowledge of the target
                    language.
                    > Only problem is, there are several target languages. Finding the common
                    core
                    > is the trick, and the basic principles laid down in the charter do a
                    pretty
                    > good job, though not a perfect one. If Folkspraak gets past the early
                    pidgin
                    > stage, it will stabilize in vocabulary, spelling, and grammar, and then
                    it'll
                    > take off. But not without the level of communication we had a year or so
                    ago!
                    >
                    > Brian
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > Browse the draft word lists!
                    > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                    > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
                    >
                    > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                    > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                    --
                    Will Beazley
                    Systems Administrator Equator Technologies
                    FON: 512.502.2003 |EML: mailto:beazley@...
                    FAX: 512.231.8108 |PAG: 888.213.7053


                    Browse the draft word lists!
                    http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                    http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html

                    Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                    http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Dan Dawes
                    See http://home.att.net/~pjmitrevski/download.html for a proposal of International English. Dan Dawes ... From: Dan Dawes [mailto:dawes@mdalaw.com] Sent:
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
                      See http://home.att.net/~pjmitrevski/download.html for a proposal of
                      International English.

                      Dan Dawes


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Dan Dawes [mailto:dawes@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 11:23 AM
                      To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [folkspraak] -'s possessive form


                      Write a translator between standard English and International English, aka
                      Folklish. (Reit e transletor betwin standard English and Internashanul
                      English.)

                      Dan Dawes


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: beazley@... [mailto:beazley@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 9:17 AM
                      To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [folkspraak] -'s possessive form


                      back from the brink I see. I haven't seen any traffice on this..

                      Is folkspraak dead? If its not and we could produce a anewer release
                      I would humur the idea of writing a simple folkpraak to english
                      translator.


                      bribri56@... wrote:
                      >
                      > As with the rest of the Folkspraak grammar, I think that trial and error,
                      or
                      > common usage, should determine what form is used. Pros of 'von' are: used
                      in
                      > German, obvious to Dutch speakers, recognizable to many English speakers.
                      > Cons: one more preposition to learn, " von " takes longer to type than
                      "'s",
                      > and "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
                      > (which?).
                      >
                      > At this point, I think of Folkspraak as a type of pidgin, with
                      > characteristics of the Ga:starbeiterdeutsch spoken by many guest workers
                      in
                      > Germany, or the 'foreigner talk' used by native speakers when dealing with
                      > tourists and others with only a rudimentary knowledge of the target
                      language.
                      > Only problem is, there are several target languages. Finding the common
                      core
                      > is the trick, and the basic principles laid down in the charter do a
                      pretty
                      > good job, though not a perfect one. If Folkspraak gets past the early
                      pidgin
                      > stage, it will stabilize in vocabulary, spelling, and grammar, and then
                      it'll
                      > take off. But not without the level of communication we had a year or so
                      ago!
                      >
                      > Brian
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > Browse the draft word lists!
                      > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                      > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
                      >
                      > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                      > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                      --
                      Will Beazley
                      Systems Administrator Equator Technologies
                      FON: 512.502.2003 |EML: mailto:beazley@...
                      FAX: 512.231.8108 |PAG: 888.213.7053


                      Browse the draft word lists!
                      http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                      http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html

                      Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                      http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/


                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                      Browse the draft word lists!
                      http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                      http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html

                      Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                      http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/


                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • bribri56@aol.com
                      We could learn a few things from Tok Pisin (Pidgin-Talk), which is an official language now in Papua New Guinea. It has a pretty good presence on the Web (do
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 22, 2001
                        We could learn a few things from Tok Pisin (Pidgin-Talk), which is an
                        official language now in Papua New Guinea. It has a pretty good presence on
                        the Web (do your own research :). But the principles of Folkspraak, and of
                        Dan's latest proposal, match principles common to many pidgins. I found Mark
                        Sebba's book 'Contact Languages - Pidgins and Creoles', 1997 to be quite
                        readable and it unintentially has a lot to say to conlangers and auxlangers.
                        The section on Afrikaans (a 'creoloid' language) might be especially
                        interesting to Folkspraakers (or Spraakers von Folkspraak).

                        Brian



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Thomas Martin Widmann
                        ... The genitive in -s is extremely common in Danish and Swedish. In Norwegian, it seems to be on its way out (but is certainly still used). Icelandic still
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 23, 2001
                          r.collins@... writes:

                          > --- In folkspraak@y..., bribri56@a... wrote:
                          > > "s" is used for the possessive in some Germanic familiy languages
                          > > (which?).
                          >
                          > I speak good English and German, as well as rudimentary Swedish that
                          > I learnt from the web
                          > (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1290/), and it seems that
                          > all three can and do say `John's book'. Assuming that it is also
                          > covered in the other languages, I feel it would be good to include
                          > such a thing in Folkspraak.

                          The genitive in -s is extremely common in Danish and Swedish. In
                          Norwegian, it seems to be on its way out (but is certainly still
                          used). Icelandic still has a real genitive case with various endings
                          (-s being but one). In German, it's mostly used with names (as in
                          English). I think it is very rare in Dutch, if it's used at all.

                          /Thomas
                          --
                          Thomas Martin Widmann, Universitetsparken 8, 2., -333, DK-8000 Ã…rhus C
                          Tel.: 7028 4406 * (park) 8942 7333 * (mob.) 2167 6127 * (SDS) 8733 4465
                          <mailto:viralbus@...> <URL:http://www.daimi.au.dk/~viralbus>
                          MA stud. (ling-dat); stud.prog.; aktiv radikal; formand/DK-TUG; T4ONF/TK
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.