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Re: Roots

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  • beazley@equator.com
    I have been investing this little and I think two things should be emphasized. 1 Strict unvarying grammer rules 2 Most importantly that the uneducated speaker
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 30, 2000
      I have been investing this little and I think two things should be
      emphasized.

      1 Strict unvarying grammer rules

      2 Most importantly that the uneducated speaker from a germanic
      language should be able to make out what is being said.

      Arguably this is the most imporant part if the desire is to have
      universal adoption in gemanic languaged countries.

      The idea that with little training that documentation could be read by
      all these countries paramount.

      I do think though that things should be a little geared towards
      english because it is the most widely known language by speakers of
      these other languages, and of course is default commerce language.

      I do think I see a leaning towards High German (or at least What I
      rememeber from high school and early college)

      Since I comming into this late and have been thinking about this for
      independently I am sorry if rerunning old issues.

      I would like to see the more comprehensive congnate list if you can
      post or point me to it, thanks.

      remember what make this stand the test of time is rapid adoption.

      --- In folkspraak@egroups.com, Dan Dawes <dawes@m...> wrote:
      > Here is the proposed Folkspraak grammar from the site.
      > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/folkgrammar.htm
      >
      > Grammar of Folkspraak
      > Version 0.5.2
      >
      > [Version 1.0.0, when achieved, will indicate that the grammar design
      is
      > frozen]
      >
      > by Dan Dawes
      >
      >
      >
      > Release Notes
      > 0.5.0 - Dan Dawes' initial version, June 29, 1999
      >
      > 0.5.1 - Jeffrey Henning's first copy editing and formatting session,
      June
      > 29, 1999
      >
      > 0.5.2 - Jeffrey Henning's second editing and formatting session,
      correcting
      > typos identified by Dan and integrating some of Dan's e-mailed
      comments into
      > the introduction
      >
      > Your comments are welcome - please join the Folkspraak mailing list.
      >
      >
      >
      > Introduction
      > The primary tongues of the currently used Germanic languages of
      Western
      > Europe can be viewed as one, if in each the traits that distinguish
      it from
      > its sister Germanic languages are disregarded. The result is
      Folkspraak,
      > which differs from the natural Germanic languages from which it is
      derived
      > as a personality type differs from the individuals it represents. -
      > Folkspraak is derived from English, German, Dutch and the
      Scandinavian
      > languages, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish, treated as one group. It
      is the
      > common Germanic language of all Germanic speaking peoples and is
      understood,
      > like a streamlined version of one's native Germanic tongue.
      >
      > While the Folkspraak lexical building is a separate effort, grammar
      of
      > course cannot be formulated in the absence of words. Therefore, a
      few
      > grammatical words have been chosen under the assumption that these
      words
      > would be adopted in the Folkspraak lexicon. If this is not in fact
      the case,
      > the grammatical point can be easily deduced and correctly applied to
      the
      > intended word, which is adopted into the Folkspraak lexicon. If a
      word form
      > or root appears or is understandable in three of the four Germanic
      languages
      > (counting the Scandinavian languages as one), then it is adopted
      into
      > Folkspraak.
      >
      > Here is the proposed grammar for Folkspraak. I have been thinking
      about this
      > for awhile. I have not seen any other attempts. I modeled the
      approach
      > closely after the grammatical approach of Interlingua, except I have
      > Germanized it. This is an earnest approach to devise a grammar that
      would be
      > simple, easy to learn and easy to master, and would seem familiar in
      some
      > degree to any speaker of German, English, Dutch and the Scandinavian
      > languages. The goal would be to have all speakers of German,
      English, Dutch
      > and the Scandinavian languages
      > be able to at least partially read Folkspraak without any prior
      exposure to
      > it and be able to understand the gist.
      >
      > Now with the proposed grammar defined, we will circulate it on the
      web and
      > see if we can move together in a reasoned manner to a consensus.
      Even in
      > grammar it comes down in many cases to just making a judgment and a
      decision
      > among a number of plausibly equally valid alternatives. If we could
      test the
      > proposal by having a number of native speakers from each group
      evaluate the
      > intelligibility of the grammar in some kind of survey, then we could
      be
      > semi-objective. In a perfect world, we would have native speakers
      from each
      > language with no exposure to the other languages try to read the
      text
      > according to various grammars and
      > lexicons. The most readily intelligible grammar and lexicon to such
      a reader
      > would win.
      >
      >
      >
      > Spelling & Pronunciation
      > The letters are those of the standard Roman alphabet without stress
      marks or
      > other diacritical signs. The PRONUNCIATION is on the whole
      "classical"
      > (vowels as in modern German; 'c' before 'e', 'i', 'y' like 's' or
      'ts',
      > otherwise like 'k'; 'th' like 't'; 'ph' like 'f'; etc.). The STRESS
      is
      > "natural" if it falls most frequently on the vowel before the last
      > consonant.
      >
      >
      >
      > Articles
      > Definite Article
      > The word for "the" is der for all genders (masculine, feminine and
      neuter)
      > and numbers (singular and plural).
      >
      > Indefinite Article
      > The word for "a" / "an" is en for all genders (restricted to the
      singular).
      >
      > Word Order
      > Articles precede the noun they modify (e.g., der Man, "the man").
      >
      > Nouns
      > Capitalization
      > Nouns are capitalized as in German to assist in distinguishing when
      a word
      > is used as a noun rather than another form. For example, the verb
      > infinitives can be used as nouns simply by capitalizing the word.
      >
      > Number
      > Singular Nouns
      > The canonical form of a noun is unmarked for singular (e.g., Man =
      "man").
      >
      > Plural Nouns
      > The plural of nouns ends in -ens after consonants and -ns after
      vowels in
      > all genders. For example, Man = "man" becomes Manens = "men".
      >
      > Case
      > Nouns do not change form for case.
      >
      > Dative Nouns
      > Indirect objects (dative) are always formed by the preposition zu =
      "to", as
      > in ik gebe der Buk zu hem = "I give the book to him."
      >
      > Possessive Nouns
      > Possession (genitive) is always formed by von, e.g. Det bine der Buk
      von
      > John = "It is the book of John." Folkspraak has no analogue to the
      -?s
      > possessive form.
      >
      > Adjectives & Adverbs
      > Adjectives
      > The adjective is invariable. It shows no agreement in form with the
      noun or
      > pronoun it modifies.
      >
      > Word Order
      > It precedes the noun that it modifies. For example, en gud Man = "a
      good
      > man".
      >
      > Adverb
      > Derived Adverbs
      > Adverbs are derived from adjectives by the addition of -lik. For
      example,
      > neu = "new" becomes neulik = "newly".
      >
      > Primary Adverbs
      > Folkspraak has, of course, so-called primary adverbs, which are not
      derived
      > from adjectives and do not end in -lik.
      >
      > Comparatives
      > The comparative degree of adjectives and adverbs is expressed by
      mehr, the
      > superlative by der mehr. Degrees of inferiority are similarly
      expressed by
      > minus and der minus.
      >
      > Personal Pronouns, Possessive Adjectives
      > The personal pronouns have two distinct forms used as subject and
      object
      > (either direct or indirect) respectively.
      >
      > Capitalization
      > Any form of the pronoun can be made into a formal form by
      capitalizing it
      > where used, otherwise it is assumed to be the familiar form when
      used in
      > lower case.
      >
      > Word Order
      > The object form normally follows the verb.
      >
      > The indirect form always takes the preposition zu = "to" and usually
      > precedes the object.
      >
      > The possessive adjective occurs immediately before the noun it
      qualifies.
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject Pronouns
      > Singular English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > I
      > ich
      > ik
      > jeg
      > jeg
      > Jag
      > ik
      >
      > you
      > du
      > Jij, Je
      > du
      > du
      > du, ni
      > du
      >
      > he
      > er
      > Hij
      > han
      > han
      > Han
      > hie
      >
      > she
      > sie
      > Zij
      > hun
      > hun
      > Hon
      > shie
      >
      > it
      > es
      > Het
      > det
      > det
      > den, det
      > det
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Plural
      > English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > we
      > wir
      > Wij
      > vi
      > vi
      > vi
      > vi
      >
      > you
      > Sie
      > Je, U
      > i, de
      > dere
      > ni
      > u
      >
      > they
      > sie
      > zij
      > de
      > de
      > de
      > de
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Object Pronouns
      > Singular English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > me
      > mir, mich
      > mij, me
      > mig
      > meg
      > mig
      > mi
      >
      > You
      > dir, dich
      > jou, je, u
      > dig
      > deg
      > dig
      > di
      >
      > Him
      > ihm, ihn
      > hem
      > ham
      > ham
      > honom
      > hem
      >
      > Her
      > ihr, sie
      > haar
      > hende
      > heene
      > henne
      > hen
      >
      > It
      > es, ihm
      > het
      > dem
      > den, det
      > den, det
      > den
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Plural
      > English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > Us
      > uns
      > ons
      > os
      > oss
      > oss
      > os
      >
      > You
      > euch, Sie, Ihnen
      > je, u, jullie
      > jer, dem
      > dere
      > ede, r
      > jem
      >
      > Them
      > Sie, ihnen
      > hun, hen, haar, ze
      > dem
      > dem
      > dem
      > dem
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Possessive Adjectives
      > Singular English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > my
      > mein
      > mijn
      > min, mit, mine
      > min, mitt, mine
      > min, mitt, mina
      > min
      >
      > your
      > dein
      > jouw, je, Uw,jullie
      > din, dit, dine
      > din, ditt, dine
      > din, ditt, dina
      > din
      >
      > his
      > sein
      > zijn
      > sin, sit, han, sine
      > hans
      > hans
      > sin
      >
      > her
      > ihr
      > haar
      > sin, sit, hendes, sine
      > hennes
      > hennes
      > har
      >
      > its
      > sein
      > zijn
      > sin, sit, dens, dets, sine
      > dens, dets
      > dess
      > dets
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Plural
      > English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > our
      > Unser
      > Ons, onze
      > vores, vore
      > var, vart, vare
      > var, vart, vare
      > ons
      >
      > your
      > Euer
      > je, Uw, jullie
      > jeres, eders
      > deres
      > deras
      > eures
      >
      > their
      > Ihr
      > hun
      > deres
      > deres
      > deras
      > deres
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Possessive Pronouns
      > Singular English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > mine
      > meiner
      > mijne
      > min, mit, mine
      > min, mitt, mine
      > min, mitt, mina
      > miner
      >
      > yours
      > deiner
      > jouwe, uwe
      > din, dit, dine
      > din, ditt, dine
      > din, ditt, dina
      > diner
      >
      > his
      > seiner
      > zijne
      > sin, sit, han, sine
      > hans
      > hans
      > siner
      >
      > hers
      > ihrer
      > hare
      > sin, sit, hendes, sine
      > hennes
      > hennes
      > harer
      >
      > its
      > seiner
      > zijne
      > sin, sit, dens, dets, sine
      > dens, dets
      > dess
      > detser
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Plural
      > English
      > German
      > Dutch
      > Danish
      > Norwegian
      > Swedish
      > Folkspraak
      >
      > ours
      > unserer
      > onze
      > vores, vore
      > var, vart, vare
      > var, vart, vare
      > onser
      >
      > yours
      > euerer
      > uwe
      > jeres, eders
      > deres
      > deras
      > eurer
      >
      > theirs
      > ihrer
      > hunne
      > deres
      > deres
      > deras
      > derer
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Summary
      > The Folkspraak pronouns are thus:
      >
      >
      >
      > Singular Subject
      > Object
      > Possessive Adjective
      > Possessive Pronoun
      > Reflexive
      >
      > ik
      > mi
      > min
      > miner
      > sich
      >
      > du
      > di
      > din
      > diner
      > sich
      >
      > hie
      > hem
      > sin
      > siner
      > sich
      >
      > shie
      > hen
      > har
      > harer
      > sich
      >
      > det
      > den
      > dets
      > detser
      > sich
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Plural
      > Subject
      > Object
      > Possessive Adjective
      > Possessive Pronoun
      > Reflexive
      >
      > vi
      > os
      > ons
      > onser
      > sich
      >
      > u
      > jem
      > eures
      > eurer
      > sich
      >
      > de
      > dem
      > deres
      > derer
      > sich
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Verbs
      > All verbs are regular without exception. The verb has an infinitive,
      which
      > can also be used as a noun, and two participles (past and present),
      which
      > can also be used as adjectives. Its conjugation lacks personal
      endings but
      > has a complete set of tenses (present, past, perfect, pluperfect,
      future,
      > conditional), both active and passive. It has an imperative but no
      > subjunctive.
      >
      > Word Order
      > Word order is usually subject-verb-object. A writer may depart from
      the
      > normal order for emphasis as long as the meaning is clear.
      >
      > Word order does not vary for subordinate clauses.
      >
      > The words of a verb phrase are generally used in consecutive
      positions
      > without sending any part of the verb phrase to the end of the
      sentence.
      >
      > Questions are generally verb-subject-object followed by "?".
      >
      > Verbal Prefixes
      > Verbs may be used with an inseparable and separable prefix. The
      separable
      > prefix, which is generally also a preposition, may be placed at the
      end of
      > the phrase or sentence. For example, sich aufrisen = "to get
      (someone or
      > something) up"; ik rise sich auf = "I get up"; ik rise hen auf = "I
      get her
      > up"; ik habe sich aufgerised = "I have gotten up."
      >
      > Summary
      > Infinitive
      > root + -(t)en
      > etten = to eat (note Etten = "an eating or meal") (when the root
      ends in a
      > vowel add -ten)
      >
      > Pres. Participle
      > root + -ende
      > ettende = "eating"
      >
      > Past Participle
      > ge- + root + -(t)ed
      > geetted = "eaten" (when the root ends in a vowel add -ted)
      >
      > Imperative
      > root
      > ett = "eat!"
      >
      > Present Active
      > root + -e
      > ik ette = "I eat, I am eating, I do eat", du ette, hie ette, vi
      ette, u
      > ette, de ette
      >
      > Past Active
      > root + -(t)ed
      > ik etted = "I ate, I was eating, I did eat" (when the root ends in
      a vowel
      > add -ted)
      >
      > Future Active
      > wille + infinitive
      > ik wille etten, etc. = "I shall eat"
      >
      > Conditional Active
      > kone + infinitive
      > ik kone etten = "I could eat"
      >
      > Perfect Active
      > habe + past participle
      > ik habe geetten = "I have eaten"
      >
      > Pluperfect Active
      > habed + past participle
      > ik habed geetten = "I had eaten"
      >
      > Future Perfect Active
      > wille haben + root + -(t)ed
      > ik wille haben geetted = "I shall have eaten"
      >
      > Conditional Perfect Active
      > kone haben + root + -(t)ed
      > ik kone haben geetted = "I could have eaten"
      >
      > Present Passive
      > ik bine geetted = "I am eaten"
      >
      > Past Passive
      > ik bined geetted = "I was eaten"
      >
      > Future Passive
      > ik wille binen geetted = "I shall be eaten"
      >
      > Conditional Passive
      > ik kone binen geetted = "I could be eaten"
      >
      > Perfect Passive
      > ik habe binen geetted = "I have been eaten"
      >
      > Pluperfect Passive
      > ik habed binen geetted = "I have been eaten"
      >
      > Future Perfect Passive
      > ik wille haben binen geetted = "I shall have been eaten"
      >
      > Conditional Perfect Passive
      > ik kone binen geetted = "I could have been eaten"
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Andreas Beer [mailto:abeer@g...]
      > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 11:39 AM
      > To: folkspraak@egroups.com
      > Subject: [folkspraak] Roots
      >
      >
      > Hi
      >
      > Here I'm back again after two weeks without a telephone line.
      >
      > My first question: what do you understand by saying "germanic"? Is
      it
      > german, english, dutch, danish and swedish?
      > Maybe we should put the real germanic language into this list, I've
      got an
      > encyclopediae of ethymology, where I can see the roots of the german
      > words.
      >
      > Where do we get the translations into the different languages?
      > I know the english and german words, but none of the other languages
      - is
      > there an online dictionary or something alike?
      >
      > Where should we start?
      > As it's for me, we should begin with the numbers from one to ten.
      > maybe have a look at the translations somewhere on the site:
      www.blinde-
      > kuh.de - the files name must be zahlen1-10.html
      >
      > Main question: You all translate english sentences into folkspraak,
      by
      > using english grammar!!! We should consider the usage of the grammar
      > and not adopt one without asking. I think that all germanic
      languages make
      > use of the Subject-Verb-Object order.
      > But when it's up to Phrase Structure Trees, the languages differ.
      >
      > We should create some rules of Syntax.
      > Here's a short example:
      >
      > N = Noun
      > V = Verb
      > Art = Article (do we want them?)
      > Adj = Adjective
      > Aux = Auxiliary
      > C = Complementizer
      > P = Preposition
      > S = Sentence
      > NP = Noun Phrase
      > VP = Verb Phrase
      > PP = Prepositional Phrase
      > () = optional
      > n* = can be repeated infinitely
      > || = XOR
      >
      > S -> NP + VP
      > NP -> (Art) + n*(Adj) + Noun + (PP)
      > VP -> (Aux) + V + (NP) + (PP)
      > VP -> VP + C + S
      > PP -> P + NP
      >
      > I know, my notation isn't very good, but it's an example.
      > So you can create a sentence like:
      > e.g.:
      > S
      > The cat is a small animal with a fur that you can see at night.
      >
      > NP + VP
      > The cat + is a small animal with a fur that you can see at night.
      >
      > NP + VP + C + NP + VP
      > The cat + is a small animal with a fur + that + you + can see at
      night.
      >
      > Art + N + V + NP + PP + C + N + Aux + V + PP
      > The + cat+ is + a small animal + with a fur + that + you + can + see
      + at
      > night.
      >
      > Art + N + V + Art + Adj + N + P + Art + N + C + N + Aux + V + P + N
      > The + cat+ is + a + small + animal + with + a + fur + that + you +
      can +
      > see + at + night.
      >
      > What do you think about it?
      > My studies in linguistic at the university will begin on monday, and
      I
      > already started to learn something, for good use within folkspraak,
      I hope.
      >
      > cu
      >
      > Andreas
      >
      >
      >
      > Browse the draft word lists!
      > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
      > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
      >
      > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
      > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
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