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Re: Even more fronking animals

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  • wakuran_wakaran
    ... ... nasal ... sense) Also, it seems that english have borrowed the word torsk . It seems that in modern swedish, kabeljo doesn t mean
    Message 1 of 41 , Dec 7, 2004
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      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "parked71" <parked@x> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "parked71" <parked@x> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran"
      <hakans@w...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yo, the last goose was mainly used as a springboard for a
      nasal
      > > > > ingvaeonic discussion, but here I have food for truly bestial
      > > > > animated animal thoughts.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1st: Cod, Codfish...
      > > > >
      > > > > English: Cod, Codfish
      > > > > German: Kabeljau, Dorsch
      > > > > Dutch: Kabeljauw, Spruw
      > > > > Scandinavian: Torsk (Also, Kabeljo, in certain cuisiniary
      sense)

      Also, it seems that english have borrowed the word "torsk". It seems
      that in modern swedish, "kabeljo" doesn't mean "cod" anymore.
      My "Svenska Akademins Ordlista" (Dictionary of the Swedish Academy)
      from 1986 tells that it means "Salted and dried ling". Oh well, some
      semantic fluctuation is acceptable... =S

      Btw, "Ling" seems to have widespread cognates. English: Ling,
      German:Leng or Lengfisch, Dutch: Leng? Swedish: Långa and Danish:
      Lange

      It's derived from Long originally so perhaps L(ae)ng(e?) or
      "L(ae)ng(e?)-fisc" I use the same ae ligature in L(ae)ng(eth)e
      (Length), to keep the connection to Lang(Long).

      > > > >
      > > > > Other languages:
      > > > >
      > > > > French: Morue, Cabillaud
      > > > > Spanish: (metathetized?) Bacalao
      > > > > Portuguese: (metathetized?) Bacalhau
      > >
      > >
      > > From the SEOB
      > >
      > > kabeljo, 1637: kabeliou, cabelaw rn.
      > > m.; ännu på 1800-t. stavat kabeljå,
      > > ka-beljau; jämte Ity., ty. kabeljau osv.
      > > från mholl. cabbelyau m. m. Därjämte
      > > höll. bakeljauw från spän. bacal(l)ao
      > > (motsv. i portug. o. bask.), som man
      > > fört till lat. baculus, käpp; alltså
      > > 'stockfisk'. Kanske dock i stället den senare
      > > benämningen beror på ombildning av
      > > den förra. Dunkelt.
      > >
      > > I think this says the Swedish word comes from (Low) German which
      > > comes from Dutch
      > > which comes from Spanish or perhaps Portugese or Basque.
      Ultimately
      > > from Latin
      > > "bacalus: So it was the Dutch who metathetized the word, shame on
      > > them.
      > > Either the French coincidentally metathetized their word or they
      > also
      > > borrowed it from
      > > Dutch/Flemish or Low German.
      > >
      > > BTW "Stockfish" is also used in English. Any of the other
      Germlangs
      > > use similar words?
      > >

      German seems to have "stockfisch". The english word is borrowed from
      middle dutch stocvisch, so it seems LIKELY that dutch would
      have "stokvis".

      > >
      > It says *kab?l(j)? probably comes from middle dutch, and *bak?l?(o)
      > probably comes from spanish or portuguese. "Jämte=in addition to,"
      > next to "Därjämte=also." The last part means, roughly
      > translated: "that has been linked to Latin Bacalus, (Walking?) Cane
      > (Stick?), that is 'Stockfish', Maybe the latter naming is a
      > metathesis of the former. Obscure."
      >
      > SAOB gives:
      > ETYMOLOGI: [jfr ä. d. kab(b)elo(w) m. m., d. kabliau, mnt. kabelow
      m.
      > m., t. kabeljau, eng. cabilliau; av holl. kabeljauw, av mnl.
      cabeljau
      > m. m.; jfr mnl. o. holl. bakeljauw, kabeljo (i bet. 2), ävensom
      span.
      > bacallao, port. bacalh~ao, kabeljo (i bet. 2); förh. mellan
      formerna
      > holl. bakeljauw o. kabeljauw är oklart]
      >
      > "The relationship between the forms holl. bakeljauw and kabeljauw
      is
      > unclear."
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I once read a book about the history of cod fishing. It had
      > several
      > > > pages devoted to
      > > > etymology of the words for cod in different langs. Of which I
      > don't
      > > > remember any :-)
      > > >
      > > > Dorsch and Torsk look very cognate. Suggesting a ProtoGermanic
      > form
      > > > of *thorsk.
      > > >
      > > > I think the French Cabillaud is cognate with the German and
      Dutch.
      > > > The Spanish/Portuguese words do look metathetized from the
      > French.
      > > > BUT could it be possible that French metathetised the word which
      > > > originally came from
      > > > Spanish???
      > > > The Portugese and Spanish are massive consumers of salted cod
      and
      > > > have been since the middle ages.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Grimms German dictionary gives no help whatsoever for
      etymology.
      > But
      > > > it hints that in German it might also be spelt as "Kabiliau"
      > > >
      > > > Now is the word in German and Dutch a Romance borrowing or is
      the
      > > > French/Spanish/Portugese word borrowed from the Germlangs?
      > > >
      > > > The Latin taxinomy refers to "gadiforms" for fish that are
      related
      > > to
      > > > cod. And the IL word for cod is "gado".
      > > >
      > > > It's surprising that a form based on "kabeljau" never got into
      > > > Interlingua. Its present in two
      > > > of the contributing languages (French and Spanish) and is
      present
      > in
      > > > one of the languages
      > > > of last resort (German).
      > > >
      > > > I would, in my rules for selecting words for FS, which allows
      for
      > a
      > > > language of last resort, allow a word similar to "kabeljau" to
      be
      > > > used.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > There's also a norwegian cod, called "Skrei", it seems that
      the
      > > > > norwegians have managed to export this trademark quite
      > > > > successfully... =S A random search on the Internet gave
      examples
      > > of
      > > > > websites in norwegian, english, german, dutch, spanish and
      > french.
      > > > >
      > > > > This would give us the words:
      > > > > 1. Kábeljau (or Dorsc/(Thorn?)orsch)
      > > > > 2. Skrei
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Another animal, or at least fictive creature is the "Smurf".
      > > > >
      > > > > (French original): Schtroumpf
      > > > >
      > > > > English: Smurf
      > > > > German: Schlumpf
      > > > > Dutch: Smurf
      > > > > Swedish: Smurf
      > > > > Danish: Smølf, earlier Snøvs
      > > > > Norwegian: Smurf
      > > > >
      > > > > I think "Smurf" would be a rather unique FS word, in that it
      > > > denotes
      > > > > a fairy tale creature with a name different from the original
      > > name.
      > > > >
      > > > > What is interesting is that the word seems to be dutch in
      > origin,
      > > > and
      > > > > not english, the swedish word seems to date back to at least
      > the
      > > > > early 70's, and the dutch word to somewhere in the eary
      60's...
      > > > >
      > > > > The smurfs didn't seem to hit it big in anglophone countries
      > > until
      > > > > the animated show in the 80's, which is relatively late... I
      > > wonder
      > > > > if the english marketing agencies took the word "Smurf" from
      > the
      > > > > dutch.
      > > > >
      > > > > (I could say "smurfing animals in the subject headline, but I
      > > liked
      > > > > the sound of "fronking"...)
      > > >
      > > > I read the comic books long before the awful animated show came
      > > along.
    • Roly Sookias
      Well I got my information from http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/dutch.htm ...it seems right in English, Dutch, German, Spanish, and the rest of Dutch, so I
      Message 41 of 41 , Dec 12, 2004
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        Well I got my information from
        http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/dutch.htm

        ...it seems right in English, Dutch, German, Spanish, and the rest of
        Dutch, so I can't think it's wrong about this....

        parked71 wrote:

        >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Roly Sookias <xipirho@r...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >>You may've seen my message, but just to reiterate what i said,
        >>
        >>
        >'knul' in
        >
        >
        >>Dutch would be said [knYl] - that's the sound in German 'müss'.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >Any Netherlanders (or Belgians) able to clear up this disagreement?
        >
        >I learnt what I know of Dutch from a "teach yourself..." book that was
        >at least 50 years old. And it's been a long long time, 10 years at
        >least, since I read the book. But I think it said that the short "u"
        >sound, as in words such as "bus","kunt" and "knul" , in dutch is
        >pronounced /9/. This would be similar to the "ö" vowel sound in
        >German "göttlich" or "erschöpft".
        >
        >The long "u" sound in Dutch, as in words such as "vuur", "zuur" and
        >"avontuur", is pronouned /y:/ which is a similar to a long version of
        >/Y/ that you suggest. And like the "ü" in German "trügen".
        >
        >The same book said that Dutch long vowels tend to be short by
        >standards of other languages. The book used the IPA symbol for
        >half-long vowels for dutch long vowels which is rendered in SAMPA as
        >/:\/
        >So Dutch "boek" was rendered as /bu:\k/ and "zuur" as /zy:\r/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Browse the draft word lists!
        >http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
        >http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
        >
        >Browse Folkspraak-related links!
        >http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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