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Long Vowel Suggestion

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  • J. M. McDonald
    There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel, lest FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I don t think we should
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 28, 2004
      There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel, lest
      FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I
      don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something more
      Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
      looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers will
      automatically think of a long /u/).

      Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
      long here.

      long a = ä or å
      long e = ë or æ
      long i = ï or ÿ
      long o = ö or ø
      long u = ü

      These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
    • parked71
      There are a number of suggestions for indicating long/short vowels. Refer to the poll entitled: Long and short vowels, how? btw. man is a word with a short
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 28, 2004
        There are a number of suggestions for indicating long/short vowels.
        Refer to the poll entitled:

        "Long and short vowels, how? btw. man is a word with a short vowel,
        grot is a word with a long vowel."

        By far the easiest to learn and least ambiguous is wakuran_wakaran's
        dumsprák method which uses accute accents.
        I personally think that is makes words look far too much like
        Icelandic (or like some Tolkien Elflang) and none of the big Germanic
        languages use anything like it to indicate vowel length. It also make
        it harder to type words with a US keyboard. In other words, whether
        the accute accent are easily available is very dependent on what
        keyboard/keyboard driver one is using. But I still acknowledge that it
        is very unambiguous and easy to learn.
        The original Folksprak charter stated that the spelling system needed
        to be without accent marks or special characters, just the 26 basic
        roman letters. I myself am guilty of using a special characters in my
        own dialect of Folksprak, because I think it would make Folksprak
        better. English is the only big Germlang that doesn't use special
        characters in any great numbers, so I'm not in principle against them
        where their use is strictly necessary.

        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "J. M. McDonald" <jmcd_14@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
        lest
        > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I
        > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something more
        > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
        > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers will
        > automatically think of a long /u/).
        >
        > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
        > long here.
        >
        > long a = ä or å
        > long e = ë or æ
        > long i = ï or ÿ
        > long o = ö or ø
        > long u = ü
        >
        > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
      • xipirho
        Accutes for long vowels are more Germanic than diareses. At least they are actually used that way in one Germ lang (Icelandic), whereas diareses aren t used at
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
          Accutes for long vowels are more Germanic than diareses. At least they are actually used that way in one Germ lang (Icelandic), whereas diareses aren't used at all for length.

          >
          >
          > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel, lest
          > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I
          > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something more
          > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
          > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers will
          > automatically think of a long /u/).
          >
          > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
          > long here.
          >
          > long a = ä or å
          > long e = ë or æ
          > long i = ï or ÿ
          > long o = ö or ø
          > long u = ü
          >
          > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Browse the draft word lists!
          > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
          > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
          >
          > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
          > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • xipirho
          Two points: 1. Accutes can be easily typed on any keyboard by holding down Alt Gr and typing the vowel you want one on. That s why I suggested them in the
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
            Two points:

            1. Accutes can be easily typed on any keyboard by holding down 'Alt Gr' and typing the vowel you want one on. That's why I suggested them in the first place: I think anything which would make it hard for some Germ folk to type FS should be ommitted. Thus I use no diareses.

            2. It is perfectly possible to handle vowel length without use of accutes, the best methods as far as I can see being the use of the 'open syllable rule' (a la Dutch and to some extent English and German) with either vowel doubling or a trailing 'h' being used to indicate long vowels in 'closed' syllables and a double consonant to indicate short vowels in 'open' syllables.

            >
            >
            > There are a number of suggestions for indicating long/short vowels.
            > Refer to the poll entitled:
            >
            > "Long and short vowels, how? btw. man is a word with a short vowel,
            > grot is a word with a long vowel."
            >
            > By far the easiest to learn and least ambiguous is wakuran_wakaran's
            > dumsprák method which uses accute accents.
            > I personally think that is makes words look far too much like
            > Icelandic (or like some Tolkien Elflang) and none of the big Germanic
            > languages use anything like it to indicate vowel length. It also make
            > it harder to type words with a US keyboard. In other words, whether
            > the accute accent are easily available is very dependent on what
            > keyboard/keyboard driver one is using. But I still acknowledge that it
            > is very unambiguous and easy to learn.
            > The original Folksprak charter stated that the spelling system needed
            > to be without accent marks or special characters, just the 26 basic
            > roman letters. I myself am guilty of using a special characters in my
            > own dialect of Folksprak, because I think it would make Folksprak
            > better. English is the only big Germlang that doesn't use special
            > characters in any great numbers, so I'm not in principle against them
            > where their use is strictly necessary.
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "J. M. McDonald" <jmcd_14@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
            > lest
            > > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I
            > > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something more
            > > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
            > > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers will
            > > automatically think of a long /u/).
            > >
            > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
            > > long here.
            > >
            > > long a = ä or å
            > > long e = ë or æ
            > > long i = ï or ÿ
            > > long o = ö or ø
            > > long u = ü
            > >
            > > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Browse the draft word lists!
            > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
            > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
            >
            > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
            > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • wakuran_wakaran
            ... BTW, I picked it up from Xipirho, who picked it up from Icelandic.(It s just that Xipirho follows the poll results... =S) ... BTW, I don t think double
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "parked71" <parked@x> wrote:
              >
              > There are a number of suggestions for indicating long/short vowels.
              > Refer to the poll entitled:
              >
              > "Long and short vowels, how? btw. man is a word with a short vowel,
              > grot is a word with a long vowel."
              >
              > By far the easiest to learn and least ambiguous is wakuran_wakaran's
              > dumsprák method which uses accute accents.

              BTW, I picked it up from Xipirho, who picked it up from
              Icelandic.(It's just that Xipirho follows the poll results... =S)

              > I personally think that is makes words look far too much like
              > Icelandic (or like some Tolkien Elflang) and none of the big Germanic
              > languages use anything like it to indicate vowel length. It also make
              > it harder to type words with a US keyboard. In other words, whether
              > the accute accent are easily available is very dependent on what
              > keyboard/keyboard driver one is using. But I still acknowledge that it
              > is very unambiguous and easy to learn.
              > The original Folksprak charter stated that the spelling system needed
              > to be without accent marks or special characters, just the 26 basic
              > roman letters. I myself am guilty of using a special characters in my
              > own dialect of Folksprak, because I think it would make Folksprak
              > better. English is the only big Germlang that doesn't use special
              > characters in any great numbers, so I'm not in principle against them
              > where their use is strictly necessary.
              >

              BTW, I don't think double vowels are that ambiguous and illogical.
              Anyway, they probably are less ambiguous than the english spelling
              system, anyway... =S

              Another problem is stress, how to spell the difference between
              "hakkat" and "hakatt". (Not real words, I guess in this sense double
              consonants would be fine, though... Maybe using double consonants in
              case the stress is "unnatural", or something.)

              Then, there could be a possible ambiguity whether ¨s are umlauts or
              tremas, though...

              Maybe letters like æ and ø (although I use the oe ligature) could be
              individual vowels, (also sometimes indications of umlaut), whereas
              äëïöüÿ are tremas, just a thought... =S (I don't know how often tremas
              could be needed...)

              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "J. M. McDonald" <jmcd_14@y...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
              > lest
              > > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I
              > > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something more
              > > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
              > > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers will
              > > automatically think of a long /u/).
              > >
              > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
              > > long here.
              > >
              > > long a = ä or å
              > > long e = ë or æ
              > > long i = ï or ÿ
              > > long o = ö or ø
              > > long u = ü
              > >
              > > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
            • parked71
              ... they are actually used that way in one Germ lang (Icelandic), whereas diareses aren t used at all for length. Well in my own dialect, I have been using
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "xipirho" <xipirho@r...> wrote:
                > Accutes for long vowels are more Germanic than diareses. At least
                they are actually used
                that way in one Germ lang (Icelandic), whereas diareses aren't used
                at all for length.

                Well in my own dialect, I have been using diareses, not to indicate
                length, but to indicate
                where two vowels are separate syllables and NOT a dipthong. This is
                the practice in Dutch.
                I use it in words such as "konstruëren" = to build, "policië"
                =police and "chaös" = chaos.
                Of course I reckon such usage should be optional, like vowels in
                Hebrew. (A helpful tool
                for beginners, but advanced users should learn to do without them).





                >
                > >
                > >
                > > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
                lest
                > > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling.
                I
                > > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something
                more
                > > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
                > > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers
                will
                > > automatically think of a long /u/).
                > >
                > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
                > > long here.
                > >
                > > long a = ä or å
                > > long e = ë or æ
                > > long i = ï or ÿ
                > > long o = ö or ø
                > > long u = ü
                > >
                > > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Browse the draft word lists!
                > > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                > > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
                > >
                > > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                > > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • parked71
                ... vowel you want one on. That s why I suggested them in the first place: I think anything which would make it hard for some Germ folk to type FS should be
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "xipirho" <xipirho@r...> wrote:
                  > Two points:
                  >
                  > 1. Accutes can be easily typed on any keyboard by holding down 'Alt Gr' and typing the
                  vowel you want one on. That's why I suggested them in the first place: I think anything
                  which would make it hard for some Germ folk to type FS should be ommitted. Thus I use
                  no diareses.
                  >

                  Well there is no "Alt Gr" on my keyboard at home. It is a US layout keyboard, like 95% of
                  keyboards sold in Australia and New Zealand. I have to learn the ASCII codes to type
                  accented characters. On my Apple Mac at work, its much easier to render accents: To do
                  an accute I type alt+e and then the vowel I want to accent. For an umlaut/diaresis I type
                  alt+u and then the vowel.





                  > 2. It is perfectly possible to handle vowel length without use of accutes, the best
                  methods as far as I can see being the use of the 'open syllable rule' (a la Dutch and to
                  some extent English and German) with either vowel doubling or a trailing 'h' being used to
                  indicate long vowels in 'closed' syllables and a double consonant to indicate short vowels
                  in 'open' syllables.
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > There are a number of suggestions for indicating long/short vowels.
                  > > Refer to the poll entitled:
                  > >
                  > > "Long and short vowels, how? btw. man is a word with a short vowel,
                  > > grot is a word with a long vowel."
                  > >
                  > > By far the easiest to learn and least ambiguous is wakuran_wakaran's
                  > > dumsprák method which uses accute accents.
                  > > I personally think that is makes words look far too much like
                  > > Icelandic (or like some Tolkien Elflang) and none of the big Germanic
                  > > languages use anything like it to indicate vowel length. It also make
                  > > it harder to type words with a US keyboard. In other words, whether
                  > > the accute accent are easily available is very dependent on what
                  > > keyboard/keyboard driver one is using. But I still acknowledge that it
                  > > is very unambiguous and easy to learn.
                  > > The original Folksprak charter stated that the spelling system needed
                  > > to be without accent marks or special characters, just the 26 basic
                  > > roman letters. I myself am guilty of using a special characters in my
                  > > own dialect of Folksprak, because I think it would make Folksprak
                  > > better. English is the only big Germlang that doesn't use special
                  > > characters in any great numbers, so I'm not in principle against them
                  > > where their use is strictly necessary.
                  > >
                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "J. M. McDonald" <jmcd_14@y...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
                  > > lest
                  > > > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling. I
                  > > > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something more
                  > > > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
                  > > > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers will
                  > > > automatically think of a long /u/).
                  > > >
                  > > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
                  > > > long here.
                  > > >
                  > > > long a = ä or å
                  > > > long e = ë or æ
                  > > > long i = ï or ÿ
                  > > > long o = ö or ø
                  > > > long u = ü
                  > > >
                  > > > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Browse the draft word lists!
                  > > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                  > > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
                  > >
                  > > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                  > > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • wakuran_wakaran
                  ... I thought abot mentioning it s often called trema , but it seems that diaeresis and trema basically are synonyms... =S Hmmm, I thought that tremas and
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "parked71" <parked@x> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "xipirho" <xipirho@r...> wrote:
                    > > Accutes for long vowels are more Germanic than diareses. At least
                    > they are actually used
                    > that way in one Germ lang (Icelandic), whereas diareses aren't used
                    > at all for length.
                    >
                    > Well in my own dialect, I have been using diareses, not to indicate
                    > length, but to indicate
                    > where two vowels are separate syllables and NOT a dipthong. This is
                    > the practice in Dutch.
                    > I use it in words such as "konstruëren" = to build, "policië"
                    > =police and "chaös" = chaos.
                    > Of course I reckon such usage should be optional, like vowels in
                    > Hebrew. (A helpful tool
                    > for beginners, but advanced users should learn to do without them).
                    >
                    >
                    I thought abot mentioning it's often called "trema", but it seems that
                    "diaeresis" and "trema" basically are synonyms... =S

                    Hmmm, I thought that tremas and umlauts used the same character, but
                    it appears I was wrong... =S

                    From www.wikipedia.com :
                    "A similar mark (to Umlaut) is used to indicate diaeresis in other
                    languages, but the umlaut dots are very close to the letter's body in
                    a well-designed font, while the diaresis dots are a bit further above
                    — in computer screen fonts the difference is usually not noticeable,
                    but in printed material it is."

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
                    > lest
                    > > > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English spelling.
                    > I
                    > > > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something
                    > more
                    > > > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
                    > > > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers
                    > will
                    > > > automatically think of a long /u/).
                    > > >
                    > > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all vowels
                    > > > long here.
                    > > >
                    > > > long a = ä or å
                    > > > long e = ë or æ
                    > > > long i = ï or ÿ
                    > > > long o = ö or ø
                    > > > long u = ü
                    > > >
                    > > > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Browse the draft word lists!
                    > > > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                    > > > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
                    > > >
                    > > > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                    > > > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                  • parked71
                    ... vowels. ... vowel, ... wakuran_wakaran s ... Germanic ... make ... whether ... that it ... needed ... basic ... in my ... them ... A good real example
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 29, 2004
                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wakuran_wakaran" <hakans@w...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "parked71" <parked@x> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > There are a number of suggestions for indicating long/short
                      vowels.
                      > > Refer to the poll entitled:
                      > >
                      > > "Long and short vowels, how? btw. man is a word with a short
                      vowel,
                      > > grot is a word with a long vowel."
                      > >
                      > > By far the easiest to learn and least ambiguous is
                      wakuran_wakaran's
                      > > dumsprák method which uses accute accents.
                      >
                      > BTW, I picked it up from Xipirho, who picked it up from
                      > Icelandic.(It's just that Xipirho follows the poll results... =S)
                      >
                      > > I personally think that is makes words look far too much like
                      > > Icelandic (or like some Tolkien Elflang) and none of the big
                      Germanic
                      > > languages use anything like it to indicate vowel length. It also
                      make
                      > > it harder to type words with a US keyboard. In other words,
                      whether
                      > > the accute accent are easily available is very dependent on what
                      > > keyboard/keyboard driver one is using. But I still acknowledge
                      that it
                      > > is very unambiguous and easy to learn.
                      > > The original Folksprak charter stated that the spelling system
                      needed
                      > > to be without accent marks or special characters, just the 26
                      basic
                      > > roman letters. I myself am guilty of using a special characters
                      in my
                      > > own dialect of Folksprak, because I think it would make Folksprak
                      > > better. English is the only big Germlang that doesn't use special
                      > > characters in any great numbers, so I'm not in principle against
                      them
                      > > where their use is strictly necessary.
                      > >
                      >
                      > BTW, I don't think double vowels are that ambiguous and illogical.
                      > Anyway, they probably are less ambiguous than the english spelling
                      > system, anyway... =S
                      >
                      > Another problem is stress, how to spell the difference between
                      > "hakkat" and "hakatt". (Not real words, I guess in this sense double
                      > consonants would be fine, though... Maybe using double consonants in
                      > case the stress is "unnatural", or something.)


                      A good "real" example would be "kappel" versus "kapell"

                      In the Germlangs, the stress falls on the stem of native germanic
                      words. I find it relatively
                      easly to guess the stress pattern, so long as I can recognise the
                      germanic stem and
                      recognise which syllables are gramitical suffixes such as -en, -ed,
                      -de, -est, -er, -el. Also
                      prefixes such as for-, be-, ge-.
                      In Romance borrowings the stress tends to fall on the last syllable,
                      in most Germlangs
                      except English.

                      So I guess it helps a lot if one can distinguish what is a Romance
                      word such as
                      "konstruk'tion" versus a Germanic work such as "ge'bauwing"






                      >
                      > Then, there could be a possible ambiguity whether ¨s are umlauts
                      or
                      > tremas, though...
                      >
                      > Maybe letters like æ and ø (although I use the oe ligature)
                      could be
                      > individual vowels, (also sometimes indications of umlaut), whereas
                      > äëïöüÿ are tremas, just a thought... =S (I don't know how often
                      tremas
                      > could be needed...)
                      >
                      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "J. M. McDonald" <jmcd_14@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > There should definitely be a written indication of a long vowel,
                      > > lest
                      > > > FS fall into the pronunciation calamity that is English
                      spelling. I
                      > > > don't think we should use acute accents, but perhaps something
                      more
                      > > > Germanic like umlauts or something. Double vowels can get weird-
                      > > > looking and tricky (i.e. long /o/ being /oo/, English speakers
                      will
                      > > > automatically think of a long /u/).
                      > > >
                      > > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Consider all
                      vowels
                      > > > long here.
                      > > >
                      > > > long a = ä or å
                      > > > long e = ë or æ
                      > > > long i = ï or ÿ
                      > > > long o = ö or ø
                      > > > long u = ü
                      > > >
                      > > > These are only ideas... feel free to suggest others.
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