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Re: [folkspraak] Digest Number 445

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  • Brian Davis
    Hallo, Folksprakeren! No honorific pronouns, please. Polite titles like Herr or Fru should suffice. The general evolutionary trend in languages is to simplify,
    Message 1 of 4 , May 10, 2003
      Hallo, Folksprakeren!

      No honorific pronouns, please. Polite titles like Herr or Fru should
      suffice. The general evolutionary trend in languages is to simplify, and
      Folksprak has maintained its simplicity in orthography, grammar, spelling,
      vocabulary. Lets keep it that way!

      Brian


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 4:12 AM
      Subject: [folkspraak] Digest Number 445

      . Re: Re: Honorifics
      > From: Xipirho <xipirho@...>

      > Message: 2
      > Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:21:17 +0100
      > From: Xipirho <xipirho@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: Honorifics
      >
      > hier hier.
      >
      >
      > On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:35 Europe/London, tungol65 wrote:
      >
      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wordwulf" <eparsels@n...> wrote:
      > >> God dag, folksprakeren,
      > >> I have been wondering if we should use honorific forms of the
      > >> pronouns, such as the German du/Sie thing. Originally, the
      > > Germanic
      > >> languages had two forms of 'you', *thu (sorry, no thorn character)
      > > and
      > >> *juz. The first one, ancestor of English 'thou' and German 'du',
      > >> referred to a single person, of whatever rank. The second pronoun,
      > >> ancestor of English 'ye/you' and German 'ihr', referred to more
      > > than
      > >> one person, again of whatever rank. During the later Middle Ages,
      > >> though, the custom of referring to persons above you on the social
      > >> scale in the 3rd person (as in "would his Honor care for some more
      > >> wine?" spoken by a servant to his master) while those above you
      > > still
      > >> referred to you using the original pronouns. It was a sort of
      > > verbal
      > >> equivalent to keeping your eyes averted in the presence of the high
      > >> and mighty. In other words, if you weren't one yourself, you
      > > didn't
      > >> look aristocrats in the eye, and you didn't speek directly to
      > > them.
      > >> The custom was borrowed from the Romance languages, where there was
      > > a
      > >> longer history, going back to the Roman Empire, of vast social
      > >> differences. The neuveaux aristocrats of Germanic Europe, in order
      > >> to "get culture" from Romance Europe, aped this practice along with
      > >> so much else of Romance, especially French, culture. Thus the
      > >> Germans not only decided that inferiors needed to refer to their
      > >> betters in the third person, but also in the plural, again aping
      > >> French custom, where vous, from the Latin plural pronoun vos,
      > > meaning
      > >> y'all, even when the person addressed is singular. Talk about the
      > >> need for ego-compensation! But hey! What else is money and power
      > >> good for, but to impress all the groveling scum with how important
      > >> you are.
      > >> So now we have a situation where some of the Germanic languages,
      > > such
      > >> as German, have a special honorific form of 2nd person address.
      > >> Others, such as English, do not. What do we want to do with
      > >> Folksprak? Do we go with an honorific, or do we keep the
      > > distinction
      > >> purely one of singular vs. plural?
      > >> Vat tenke je om dis?
      > >> Erik
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi all, I haven't posted for a while. Personally I think we should
      > > avoid honorifics and just have a distinction between singular and
      > > plural.
      > >
      > > Regards Robert
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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      > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      > > ~->
      > >
      > > Browse the draft word lists!
      > > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
      > > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
      > >
      > > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
      > > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
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      >
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      >
      >
      >
    • wordwulf
      ... simplify, and ... spelling, ... God dag, Folksprakeren, Okay! Vi vill have gen honorifics . Ik tenke ok so. Herr ond Fru ar god genoh for
      Message 2 of 4 , May 12, 2003
        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Davis" <brian.davis@i...>
        wrote:
        > Hallo, Folksprakeren!
        >
        > No honorific pronouns, please. Polite titles like Herr or Fru should
        > suffice. The general evolutionary trend in languages is to
        simplify, and
        > Folksprak has maintained its simplicity in orthography, grammar,
        spelling,
        > vocabulary. Lets keep it that way!
        >
        > Brian

        God dag, Folksprakeren,
        Okay! Vi vill have gen 'honorifics'. Ik tenke ok so. "Herr"
        ond "Fru" ar god genoh for Folksprak. So, vi vill bruke "du" for en
        person, ond "je" for de mertal. (Or sumvat lik dat)

        Okay, hu vill vi sage "hello" ond "good-bye" o.s.f.? "God dag" ar nu
        brukt. Her ar en par mer vorden:
        farvel 'farewell'
        god aven 'good evening'
        god morgen 'good morning'
        god naht 'good night'
        hallo 'hello'
        Ik tenke vi kunne bruke dem for grytingen ond farvelen. Vat tenke je
        om disen?

        Hello, Folksprakers,
        Okay! We will have no 'honorifics'. I think so too. "Herr"
        and "Fru" are good enough for Folksprak. So, we will use "du" for
        one person, and "je" for the plural. (or something like that)

        Okay, how will we say "hello" and "good-bye" and so forth? "God dag"
        is now used. Here (above) are a few more words:

        I think we can use them for greetings and farewells. What do you
        think about these?

        Erik
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
        > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 4:12 AM
        > Subject: [folkspraak] Digest Number 445
        >
        > . Re: Re: Honorifics
        > > From: Xipirho <xipirho@r...>
        >
        > > Message: 2
        > > Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:21:17 +0100
        > > From: Xipirho <xipirho@r...>
        > > Subject: Re: Re: Honorifics
        > >
        > > hier hier.
        > >
        > >
        > > On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:35 Europe/London, tungol65 wrote:
        > >
        > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wordwulf" <eparsels@n...>
        wrote:
        > > >> God dag, folksprakeren,
        > > >> I have been wondering if we should use honorific forms of the
        > > >> pronouns, such as the German du/Sie thing. Originally, the
        > > > Germanic
        > > >> languages had two forms of 'you', *thu (sorry, no thorn
        character)
        > > > and
        > > >> *juz. The first one, ancestor of English 'thou' and
        German 'du',
        > > >> referred to a single person, of whatever rank. The second
        pronoun,
        > > >> ancestor of English 'ye/you' and German 'ihr', referred to more
        > > > than
        > > >> one person, again of whatever rank. During the later Middle
        Ages,
        > > >> though, the custom of referring to persons above you on the
        social
        > > >> scale in the 3rd person (as in "would his Honor care for some
        more
        > > >> wine?" spoken by a servant to his master) while those above you
        > > > still
        > > >> referred to you using the original pronouns. It was a sort of
        > > > verbal
        > > >> equivalent to keeping your eyes averted in the presence of the
        high
        > > >> and mighty. In other words, if you weren't one yourself, you
        > > > didn't
        > > >> look aristocrats in the eye, and you didn't speek directly to
        > > > them.
        > > >> The custom was borrowed from the Romance languages, where
        there was
        > > > a
        > > >> longer history, going back to the Roman Empire, of vast social
        > > >> differences. The neuveaux aristocrats of Germanic Europe, in
        order
        > > >> to "get culture" from Romance Europe, aped this practice along
        with
        > > >> so much else of Romance, especially French, culture. Thus the
        > > >> Germans not only decided that inferiors needed to refer to
        their
        > > >> betters in the third person, but also in the plural, again
        aping
        > > >> French custom, where vous, from the Latin plural pronoun vos,
        > > > meaning
        > > >> y'all, even when the person addressed is singular. Talk about
        the
        > > >> need for ego-compensation! But hey! What else is money and
        power
        > > >> good for, but to impress all the groveling scum with how
        important
        > > >> you are.
        > > >> So now we have a situation where some of the Germanic
        languages,
        > > > such
        > > >> as German, have a special honorific form of 2nd person address.
        > > >> Others, such as English, do not. What do we want to do with
        > > >> Folksprak? Do we go with an honorific, or do we keep the
        > > > distinction
        > > >> purely one of singular vs. plural?
        > > >> Vat tenke je om dis?
        > > >> Erik
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi all, I haven't posted for a while. Personally I think we
        should
        > > > avoid honorifics and just have a distinction between singular
        and
        > > > plural.
        > > >
        > > > Regards Robert
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > > ---------------------~-->
        > > > Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
        > > > No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
        > > > Try Netflix for FREE!
        > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/IYOolB/TM
        > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
        -----
        > > > ~->
        > > >
        > > > Browse the draft word lists!
        > > > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
        > > > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
        > > >
        > > > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
        > > > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
      • Xipirho
        that sounds fine to me, but why en for one? - i thaut it was an ? also how about hej and haj for hey and hi ?
        Message 3 of 4 , May 12, 2003
          that sounds fine to me, but why "en" for one? - i thaut it was "an"?
          also how about "hej" and "haj" for "hey" and "hi"?


          On Monday, May 12, 2003, at 18:27 Europe/London, wordwulf wrote:

          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Davis" <brian.davis@i...>
          > wrote:
          >> Hallo, Folksprakeren!
          >>
          >> No honorific pronouns, please. Polite titles like Herr or Fru should
          >> suffice. The general evolutionary trend in languages is to
          > simplify, and
          >> Folksprak has maintained its simplicity in orthography, grammar,
          > spelling,
          >> vocabulary. Lets keep it that way!
          >>
          >> Brian
          >
          > God dag, Folksprakeren,
          > Okay! Vi vill have gen 'honorifics'. Ik tenke ok so. "Herr"
          > ond "Fru" ar god genoh for Folksprak. So, vi vill bruke "du" for en
          > person, ond "je" for de mertal. (Or sumvat lik dat)
          >
          > Okay, hu vill vi sage "hello" ond "good-bye" o.s.f.? "God dag" ar nu
          > brukt. Her ar en par mer vorden:
          > farvel 'farewell'
          > god aven 'good evening'
          > god morgen 'good morning'
          > god naht 'good night'
          > hallo 'hello'
          > Ik tenke vi kunne bruke dem for grytingen ond farvelen. Vat tenke je
          > om disen?
          >
          > Hello, Folksprakers,
          > Okay! We will have no 'honorifics'. I think so too. "Herr"
          > and "Fru" are good enough for Folksprak. So, we will use "du" for
          > one person, and "je" for the plural. (or something like that)
          >
          > Okay, how will we say "hello" and "good-bye" and so forth? "God dag"
          > is now used. Here (above) are a few more words:
          >
          > I think we can use them for greetings and farewells. What do you
          > think about these?
          >
          > Erik
          >>
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
          >> To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 4:12 AM
          >> Subject: [folkspraak] Digest Number 445
          >>
          >> . Re: Re: Honorifics
          >>> From: Xipirho <xipirho@r...>
          >>
          >>> Message: 2
          >>> Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:21:17 +0100
          >>> From: Xipirho <xipirho@r...>
          >>> Subject: Re: Re: Honorifics
          >>>
          >>> hier hier.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:35 Europe/London, tungol65 wrote:
          >>>
          >>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "wordwulf" <eparsels@n...>
          > wrote:
          >>>>> God dag, folksprakeren,
          >>>>> I have been wondering if we should use honorific forms of the
          >>>>> pronouns, such as the German du/Sie thing. Originally, the
          >>>> Germanic
          >>>>> languages had two forms of 'you', *thu (sorry, no thorn
          > character)
          >>>> and
          >>>>> *juz. The first one, ancestor of English 'thou' and
          > German 'du',
          >>>>> referred to a single person, of whatever rank. The second
          > pronoun,
          >>>>> ancestor of English 'ye/you' and German 'ihr', referred to more
          >>>> than
          >>>>> one person, again of whatever rank. During the later Middle
          > Ages,
          >>>>> though, the custom of referring to persons above you on the
          > social
          >>>>> scale in the 3rd person (as in "would his Honor care for some
          > more
          >>>>> wine?" spoken by a servant to his master) while those above you
          >>>> still
          >>>>> referred to you using the original pronouns. It was a sort of
          >>>> verbal
          >>>>> equivalent to keeping your eyes averted in the presence of the
          > high
          >>>>> and mighty. In other words, if you weren't one yourself, you
          >>>> didn't
          >>>>> look aristocrats in the eye, and you didn't speek directly to
          >>>> them.
          >>>>> The custom was borrowed from the Romance languages, where
          > there was
          >>>> a
          >>>>> longer history, going back to the Roman Empire, of vast social
          >>>>> differences. The neuveaux aristocrats of Germanic Europe, in
          > order
          >>>>> to "get culture" from Romance Europe, aped this practice along
          > with
          >>>>> so much else of Romance, especially French, culture. Thus the
          >>>>> Germans not only decided that inferiors needed to refer to
          > their
          >>>>> betters in the third person, but also in the plural, again
          > aping
          >>>>> French custom, where vous, from the Latin plural pronoun vos,
          >>>> meaning
          >>>>> y'all, even when the person addressed is singular. Talk about
          > the
          >>>>> need for ego-compensation! But hey! What else is money and
          > power
          >>>>> good for, but to impress all the groveling scum with how
          > important
          >>>>> you are.
          >>>>> So now we have a situation where some of the Germanic
          > languages,
          >>>> such
          >>>>> as German, have a special honorific form of 2nd person address.
          >>>>> Others, such as English, do not. What do we want to do with
          >>>>> Folksprak? Do we go with an honorific, or do we keep the
          >>>> distinction
          >>>>> purely one of singular vs. plural?
          >>>>> Vat tenke je om dis?
          >>>>> Erik
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> Hi all, I haven't posted for a while. Personally I think we
          > should
          >>>> avoid honorifics and just have a distinction between singular
          > and
          >>>> plural.
          >>>>
          >>>> Regards Robert
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >>>> ---------------------~-->
          >>>> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
          >>>> No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
          >>>> Try Netflix for FREE!
          >>>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/IYOolB/TM
          >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
          > -----
          >>>> ~->
          >>>>
          >>>> Browse the draft word lists!
          >>>> http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
          >>>> http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
          >>>>
          >>>> Browse Folkspraak-related links!
          >>>> http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          > ______________________________________________________________________
          > __
          >>>
          > ______________________________________________________________________
          > __
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ---------------------~-->
          > Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
          > No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
          > Try Netflix for FREE!
          > http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/IYOolB/TM
          > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          > ~->
          >
          > Browse the draft word lists!
          > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
          > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
          >
          > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
          > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • Realm of Lykosha
          Regarding honorifics: In an alien artificial language I learned, there is only three titles used: one for stranger one for respected one and one for noble
          Message 4 of 4 , May 13, 2003
            Regarding honorifics:

            In an alien artificial language I learned, there is only three titles
            used:

            one for stranger
            one for "respected one"
            and one for "noble one" -- the last for anyone who is clanleader (the
            governmental system is clan by clan). Personally, I think that's
            about as complicated as any honorofic system should get.

            Just my opinion, mind you.........

            Kasimir Hunter
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