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Re: [folkspraak] More prepositions

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  • Daan
    2001-06-14im ... suden norden osten vesten linken rekten - I thought we use -en for plurals and infinitives, so why not here too? ... Against-over (gejnover)
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 14, 2001
      2001-06-14im

      tungol65 v�m�t�g�cen:

      >sudan nordan ostan vestan
      >linkan rektan
      >dissejdan � on this side of datsejdan � on that side of

      suden norden osten vesten linken rekten - I thought we use -en for plurals and infinitives, so why not here too?

      >GEJN "against" GER gegen; ICE gegn
      >
      >To me against is used when something is on a vertical surface. So a
      >picture would hang "against" a wall.
      >
      >"de bild hange gejn de mur � the picture hangs on/against the wall"
      >"de besom lende gejn de mur � the broom leant against the wall"
      >
      >MOT locational meaning "opposite"
      >
      >"de auto ar mot min hus � the car is opposite my house"
      >
      Against-over (gejnover) will be better for me - "tegenover" in Dutch and "Gegen�ber" in German are litterally that.
    • Peter Reep
      ... months ... is ... of ... How about: == de Hus ar ostan av de Stadje; de Hus ar ostan fran de Stadje However, I prefer an de link to linkan , thus: ==
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
        A couple of initial thoughts:
        --- In folkspraak@y..., "tungol65" <robert.young24@n...> wrote:
        > AN locative meaning "at, by, in, in the location of"
        >
        > "an de strand – on the beach"
        > "an de dorp – in the village"
        > "an de kirk – in/at the church"
        > "an de see – by the lake"
        >
        > temporal meaning "at, in, on"
        >
        > "an seven ur – at seven o'clock"
        > "an fridag – on Friday"
        > "an juli – in july"
        >
        > English uses at, on or in depending on whether hours, days or
        months
        > are referred to. "an" would translate all three.
        >
        > As "AN" is a general would to show location it could form compounds
        > with points of the compass etc, as follows:-
        >
        > sudan nordan ostan vestan
        > "de dorp ar sudan de bergen – the village is south of the mountains"
        > "de kirk ar osten de stad – the church is east of the of the town"
        >
        > linkan rektan
        > "min hus ar linkan de ald brug – my hus is to the left of the old
        > bridge"
        >
        > dissejdan – on this side of datsejdan – on that side of
        > "de slot ar datsejdan de flot – the castle is on that side of the
        > river"
        >
        > This might need some polishing, to distinguish between "the house
        is
        > on the eastern side of the village" and "the house is to the east
        of
        > the village"

        How about:
        ==> de Hus ar ostan av de Stadje; de Hus ar ostan fran de Stadje
        However, I prefer "an de link" to "linkan", thus:
        ==> de Hus ar an de ost av de Stadje; de Hus ar an de ost fran de
        Stadje
        >
        >
        > FOR locative meaning "before, in front of"
        >
        > "for de kirk – in front of the church, before the church"
        >
        > temporal meaning "before"
        >
        > "ik skal rese for fimf ur – I shall travel before five o'clock"
        > "ten minuten for nin – ten minutes to nine, ten to nine"
        >
        >
        > AFTER locative meaning "behind, to the rear of"
        >
        > "de bom ar after de hus – the tree is behind the house"
        > "de kind site after de stul – the child sits behind the chair"
        >
        > temporal meaning "after"
        >
        > "ik singde after min sister – I sang after my sister"

        How would you say "I sang behind my sister"(ie I was on the back row
        and she was on the front)?
        I think I prefer "hinder" or "behind" for the locative

        > "vi gade after tva dagen an min sisters hus – we went after two
        days
        > at my sister's house"
        > "aht minuten after middag – eight minutes past midday"
        >
        > conditional meaning "according to, after, by"
        >
        > "ik farde na min broders hus after sin riktingen – I drove to my
        > brother's house according to his directions"
        > "dat buk ar after Dickens – that book is by Dickens"
        > "dis bild ar after min frend – this picture is by my friend"
        > "ik arvde de hus after min fader – I inherited the house from my
        > father"
        > "de kind var after sin onkel hete – the child was named after his
        > uncle"
        >
        >
      • tungol65
        ... plurals and infinitives, so why not here too? These end in -an not -en, they are not plurals but prepositions derived from points of the compass. ... a ...
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
          --- In folkspraak@y..., "Daan" <dgoedkoop@g...> wrote:
          > 2001-06-14im
          >
          > tungol65 vümëtügécen:
          >
          > >sudan nordan ostan vestan
          > >linkan rektan
          > >dissejdan – on this side of datsejdan – on that side of
          >
          > suden norden osten vesten linken rekten - I thought we use -en for
          plurals and infinitives, so why not here too?

          These end in -an not -en, they are not plurals but prepositions
          derived from points of the compass.

          > >GEJN "against" GER gegen; ICE gegn
          > >
          > >To me against is used when something is on a vertical surface. So
          a
          > >picture would hang "against" a wall.
          > >
          > >"de bild hange gejn de mur – the picture hangs on/against the wall"
          > >"de besom lende gejn de mur – the broom leant against the wall"
          > >
          > >MOT locational meaning "opposite"
          > >
          > >"de auto ar mot min hus – the car is opposite my house"
          > >
          > Against-over (gejnover) will be better for me - "tegenover" in
          Dutch and "Gegenüber" in German are litterally that.
        • tungol65
          ... compounds ... mountains ... Looks good ostan - at the east(ern side of) and ostan av - to the east of ... row ... Good point, I have no problem with
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
            --- In folkspraak@y..., "Peter Reep" <peter_reep@y...> wrote:
            > A couple of initial thoughts:
            > --- In folkspraak@y..., "tungol65" <robert.young24@n...> wrote:
            > > AN locative meaning "at, by, in, in the location of"
            > >
            > > "an de strand – on the beach"
            > > "an de dorp – in the village"
            > > "an de kirk – in/at the church"
            > > "an de see – by the lake"
            > >
            > > temporal meaning "at, in, on"
            > >
            > > "an seven ur – at seven o'clock"
            > > "an fridag – on Friday"
            > > "an juli – in july"
            > >
            > > English uses at, on or in depending on whether hours, days or
            > months
            > > are referred to. "an" would translate all three.
            > >
            > > As "AN" is a general would to show location it could form
            compounds
            > > with points of the compass etc, as follows:-
            > >
            > > sudan nordan ostan vestan
            > > "de dorp ar sudan de bergen – the village is south of the
            mountains"
            > > "de kirk ar osten de stad – the church is east of the of the town"
            > >
            > > linkan rektan
            > > "min hus ar linkan de ald brug – my hus is to the left of the old
            > > bridge"
            > >
            > > dissejdan – on this side of datsejdan – on that side of
            > > "de slot ar datsejdan de flot – the castle is on that side of the
            > > river"
            > >
            > > This might need some polishing, to distinguish between "the house
            > is
            > > on the eastern side of the village" and "the house is to the east
            > of
            > > the village"
            >
            > How about:
            > ==> de Hus ar ostan av de Stadje; de Hus ar ostan fran de Stadje
            > However, I prefer "an de link" to "linkan", thus:
            > ==> de Hus ar an de ost av de Stadje; de Hus ar an de ost fran de
            > Stadje

            Looks good "ostan - at the east(ern side of)" and "ostan av - to the
            east of"

            > > FOR locative meaning "before, in front of"
            > >
            > > "for de kirk – in front of the church, before the church"
            > >
            > > temporal meaning "before"
            > >
            > > "ik skal rese for fimf ur – I shall travel before five o'clock"
            > > "ten minuten for nin – ten minutes to nine, ten to nine"
            > >
            > >
            > > AFTER locative meaning "behind, to the rear of"
            > >
            > > "de bom ar after de hus – the tree is behind the house"
            > > "de kind site after de stul – the child sits behind the chair"
            > >
            > > temporal meaning "after"
            > >
            > > "ik singde after min sister – I sang after my sister"
            >
            > How would you say "I sang behind my sister"(ie I was on the back
            row
            > and she was on the front)?
            > I think I prefer "hinder" or "behind" for the locative

            Good point, I have no problem with keeping "hinder or behind" to show
            the locative.

            > > "vi gade after tva dagen an min sisters hus – we went after two
            > days
            > > at my sister's house"
            > > "aht minuten after middag – eight minutes past midday"
            > >
            > > conditional meaning "according to, after, by"
            > >
            > > "ik farde na min broders hus after sin riktingen – I drove to my
            > > brother's house according to his directions"
            > > "dat buk ar after Dickens – that book is by Dickens"
            > > "dis bild ar after min frend – this picture is by my friend"
            > > "ik arvde de hus after min fader – I inherited the house from my
            > > father"
            > > "de kind var after sin onkel hete – the child was named after his
            > > uncle"

            In enhed ond fredskap Robert
          • wordwulf
            ... Or instrumental. To me, conditional sounds too much as if you re talking about the verb. ... I guess I would prefer just to say De hus ar ost av de
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
              --- In folkspraak@y..., "tungol65" <robert.young24@n...> wrote:
              > I thought I'd post my suggestions and ideas for a preposition system
              > for comment.
              >
              > I think our prepositions should be as unambiguous as possible and
              > avoid the idiomatic usage commonly found in most Germanic languages.
              > I have therefore defined them as clearly as possible, and given
              > examples of their use.
              >
              > It seems to me that there are three types of prepositions:-
              >
              > Those showing, where something happens, which I shall refer to as
              > Locative.
              > Those showing, when or for how long something happens, which I shall
              > refer to as Temporal.
              > Those showing, the manner, reason etc of why or how something
              > happens, which I shall refer to, for want of anything better, as
              > Conditional.

              Or instrumental. To me, 'conditional' sounds too much as if you're
              talking about the verb.
              >
              > As is the case with many of the Germanic languages a preposition has
              > more than one meaning, depending on whether it is used to show
              > location, time or manner. I have followed this as closely as
              > possible, to avoid having lots of different prepositions.
              > In doing this I have imagined the passing of time as being like a
              > journey along a path or road, to correlate the meanings. With the
              > other prepositions I have tried to stick to historic or current
              > Folkspraak usage.
              >
              >
              > AN locative meaning "at, by, in, in the location of"
              >
              > "an de strand – on the beach"
              > "an de dorp – in the village"
              > "an de kirk – in/at the church"
              > "an de see – by the lake"
              >
              > temporal meaning "at, in, on"
              >
              > "an seven ur – at seven o'clock"
              > "an fridag – on Friday"
              > "an juli – in july"
              >
              > English uses at, on or in depending on whether hours, days or months
              > are referred to. "an" would translate all three.
              >
              > As "AN" is a general would to show location it could form compounds
              > with points of the compass etc, as follows:-
              >
              > sudan nordan ostan vestan
              > "de dorp ar sudan de bergen – the village is south of the mountains"
              > "de kirk ar osten de stad – the church is east of the of the town"
              >
              > linkan rektan
              > "min hus ar linkan de ald brug – my hus is to the left of the old
              > bridge"
              >
              > dissejdan – on this side of datsejdan – on that side of
              > "de slot ar datsejdan de flot – the castle is on that side of the
              > river"
              >
              > This might need some polishing, to distinguish between "the house is
              > on the eastern side of the village" and "the house is to the east of
              > the village"

              I guess I would prefer just to say 'De hus ar ost av de dorp.' or 'De
              hus ar vest fran de dorp.' 'De slot ar an de flots ostsid.'
              >
              >
              > FOR locative meaning "before, in front of"
              >
              > "for de kirk – in front of the church, before the church"
              >
              > temporal meaning "before"
              >
              > "ik skal rese for fimf ur – I shall travel before five o'clock"
              > "ten minuten for nin – ten minutes to nine, ten to nine"
              >
              >
              > AFTER locative meaning "behind, to the rear of"
              >
              > "de bom ar after de hus – the tree is behind the house"
              > "de kind site after de stul – the child sits behind the chair"
              >
              > temporal meaning "after"
              >
              > "ik singde after min sister – I sang after my sister"
              > "vi gade after tva dagen an min sisters hus – we went after two days
              > at my sister's house"
              > "aht minuten after middag – eight minutes past midday"
              >
              > conditional meaning "according to, after, by"
              >
              > "ik farde na min broders hus after sin riktingen – I drove to my
              > brother's house according to his directions"
              > "dat buk ar after Dickens – that book is by Dickens"
              > "dis bild ar after min frend – this picture is by my friend"
              > "ik arvde de hus after min fader – I inherited the house from my
              > father"
              > "de kind var after sin onkel hete – the child was named after his
              > uncle"

              I think we should keep *hinder for the locative meaning 'behind'.
              >
              >
              > TIL locative meaning "up to (but not beyond)"
              >
              > "ik lopde til min fader – I ran up to my father"
              > "de svan svimde til de brug – the swan swam up to the bridge"
              >
              > temporal meaning "until"
              >
              > "hi watede til siks ur – he waited until six o'clock"
              > "ik arbete til ik ar trat – I work until I am tired"
              >
              > OP "on, upon, on the (horizontal) surface of (and in contact with)"
              >
              > "de kop ar op de tafel – the cup is on the table"
              > "de fogel site op de dak – the bird sits on the roof"
              > "de kat vande op de gras – the cat walks on the grass"

              And in this category I would put: 'De bok ar op Folksprak skrivt.'
              (Ger. Das Buch ist auf Folksprach geschrieben. Swe. Boken ar skrivit
              pa Folksprak.)
              >
              > IN "in, within, inside (a physical structure)"
              >
              > "de fru are in de hus – the woman is in the house"
              > "de buk ar in de kist – the book is in the box"
              >
              > UNDER locative meaning "under, below (a surface)"
              >
              > "de hund ar under de tafel – the dog is under the table"
              > "de knav svime under de vater – the boy swims under the water"
              >
              > OVER locative meaning "over, above (but not in contact with)"
              >
              > "de vogel flige over de hus – the bird flies over the hus"
              > "de glok ringde over min hovd – the bell rang above my head"
              >
              > conditional meaning "about, concerning (a matter or subject)"
              >
              > "ik fragde over his broder – I asked about his brother"
              > "ik wile to spreke over din lathed – I want to speak about your
              > lateness"
              > "vi denk over her oft – we think about her often"
              >
              > DURG locative meaning "through, passing from one point to another"
              > (of an enclosed object)
              >
              > "dei resde durg de vald – they travel through the forest"
              > "ik svime durg de vater – I swim trough the water"
              >
              > temporal meaning "during, for a certain period of time"
              >
              > "de fru singde durg en ur – the woman sang for an hour"
              > "hi arbete durg fridag – he works during Friday" (through out the
              > day), just doing some work on Friday would be "hi arbete an fridag"
              >
              > ELANG "along (a surface)" in the same direction as the thing
              > traveled, such as a road, path, river.
              >
              > "vi fare elang de strat - we drive along the road"
              > "vi drefde elang de flot - we drifted along the river"

              I guess I would propose *andlang or just *lang.
              >
              > but
              >
              > "de vater flode durg de ror - the water flowed through/along the
              pipe"
              > "de auto fare durg de tunnel - the car drives through/along the
              > tunnel"
              >
              > Here I wanted a word to translate "across", most other Germanic
              > languages seem to use the same word as "over", but to my English way
              > of thinking there is a difference.
              >
              > "we walk across the field" (we go directly from one point to
              another)
              > "we walk over the field" (we go indirectly, wandering about a bit)
              >
              > Any suggestions?

              Why don't we use something like *omdurk to mean we walk around through
              the field and something like *opover to mean 'cross' the field?
              >
              > GEJN "against" GER gegen; ICE gegn
              >
              > To me against is used when something is on a vertical surface. So a
              > picture would hang "against" a wall.
              >
              > "de bild hange gejn de mur – the picture hangs on/against the wall"
              > "de besom lende gejn de mur – the broom leant against the wall"
              >
              > MOT locational meaning "opposite"
              >
              > "de auto ar mot min hus – the car is opposite my house"
              >
              > conditional meaning "contrary to"
              >
              > "ik ferkopde min grotmoders ring, mot min faders villen – I sold my
              > grandmother's ring, contrary to my father's wishes"
              >
              > NA "to, towards, in the direction of"
              >
              > "hi gade na de dorp – he went to the village"
              > "de kind gae na de strand – the child goes to the beach"
              >
              > FRA "from, away from"

              *fran?
              >
              > "hi lope fra de tiger – he runs (away) from the tiger"
              > "de fogel flige fra de foks – the bird flies away from the foks"
              > "ik komde fra de dorp – I came from the village"
              >
              > temporal meaning "since"
              >
              > "ik have watede fra tva ur – I have waited since two o'clock"
              >
              > I would use NA and FRA in combination with other prepositions to
              > indicate movement. This is done by using accusative and dative cases
              > in German and Icelandic. English uses combinations of prepositions
              > and Norwegian adverbial constructions. It would work like this
              >
              > "de mus lope under de tafel – the mouse runs under the table" (it
              > runs about under there)
              > "de mus lope na under de tafel – the mouse runs (to) under the
              table"
              > (it goes to there from somewhere else)
              > "de mus lope fra under de tafel – the mouse runs from under the
              > table" (it goes from there to somewhere else)
              >
              > "de kind springe op de de stul – the child jumps on the chair"
              > "de kind springe na op de stul – the child jumps onto the chair"
              > "de kind springe fra op de stul – the child jumps from (off of) the
              > chair"
              >
              > This would distinguish between
              >
              > "vi danse in de kamer – we dance in the room"
              > "vi danse na in de kamer – we dance into the room"

              Or we could say, "Vi dans into/intil de kammer."
              >
              > "de mantel hange op de hok – the coat hangs on the hook"
              > "ik hange de mantel na op de hok – I hang the coat (up)on the hook"
              >
              > FRA OP would translate English "off" "ik falde fra op de pard – I
              > fell off the horse"
              >
              > Maybe these combinations could be abbreviated to
              >
              > N'OP, FR'OP, N'IN, FR'IN, N'UNDER, FR'UNDER
              >
              > "de kind springe n'op de stul"
              > "vi danse n'in de kamer – we dance into the room"
              > "ik falde fr'op de pard – I fell off the horse"
              >
              > UT "out of"
              >
              > This could also be rendered by "FRA IN" but I would prefer "UT" as
              it
              > is more recognisable and means the same thing. I guess it all
              depends
              > on the perspective of the observer.

              Or we could do as Swedish does with its utifran, framifran, nerifran,
              etc. and have *utfran to use with verbs of motion.
              >
              > "hi kome ut de hus – he comes out of the house"
              > "hi kome fra in de hus – he comes from within the house"
              >
              > OM locative meaning "around, about (encircling)"
              >
              > "de kinden lope om de bom – the children run around the tree"
              > "de man resde om de verld – de man traveled around the world"
              >
              > temporal meaning "around, about"
              >
              > "de postman kome om aht ur – the postman comes about eight o'clock"
              > "de blad falle fr'op de bomen om oktober – the leaves from off the
              > trees around october"
              >
              > conditional meaning "in order to, so that"
              >
              > "de tiger jage om eten – the tiger hunts in order to eat"
              > "ik gae na de dorp om brod ferkopen – I go to the village in order
              to
              > buy bread"
              >
              > AV "of, from, some of, by, (made) out of, with"
              >
              > To show possession
              >
              > "de buk av de knav - the book of the boy" I would expect the
              > usual construction would be "de knavs buk"
              >
              > To show the agent of a passive verb
              >
              > "ik ar kussde av min moder – I am kissed by my mother" (c.f. GER Ich
              > werde VON meiner Mutter geküsst)
              >
              > To show "some of"
              >
              > "ik ete de appelen – I eat the apples" (all of them)
              > "k ete av de appelen – I eat (some) of the apples" (c.f. biblical
              > English)
              >
              > To show "(made) out of"
              >
              > "en hert av sten – a heart of stone"
              > "en hus av holt – a house of wood, a wooden house"
              > or "en holthus"
              > "en brug av sten – a bridge of stone, a stone bridge"
              > or "en stenbrug"
              > "en kop av gold – a cup of gold, a golden cup" or "en
              > goldkop"
              >
              > To show an attribute or quality
              >
              > "en man av rod har – a man with red hair, a red-haired man"
              > "en kind av blu ogen – a child with blue eyes, a blue-eyed child"
              > "en man av vitenskap – a man of science"
              >
              > MED "with, in the company of"
              >
              > "ik singe med min frenden – I sing with my friends"
              > "de kind ar med sin moder – the child is with its mother"
              >
              > SONDER "without"
              >
              > "de fater kome sonder sin son – the father comes without his son"
              > "du ar sonder skuld – you are without shame"
              >
              > VID "with, by means of, with the aid of" (used to show the
              instrument
              > of an action)
              >
              > "I snede de brod vid en kniv – I cut the bread with a knife"
              > "de hund ar slagde av de knav vid en stok" – "the dog is beaten by
              > the boy with a stick"
              > "de ald man vande vid en stok – the old man walks with a stick"
              >
              > FUR "for, for the benefit of"
              >
              > "de ben are fur min hund – the bone is for my dog"
              > "de kak are fur de mejd – the cake is for the girl"
              >
              > "ik have gen luv fur him – I have no love for him"
              > "vi have gen glub fur her – we have no faith in her"
              > "du have fel glub fur din fater – you have much faith in your
              father"
              >
              > TVISK "between, among, amongst, amid"
              >
              > "de hus var tvisk de bomen – the house was between the trees"
              > "ik svime tvisk de fisken – I swim amongst the fish"
              >
              > TO "to" used to show the dative.
              >
              > "du givde de ben to de hund – you gave the bone to the dog"
              > "ik skrivde en bref to min sister – I wrote a letter to my sister"
              >
              > STED "instead, instead of"
              >
              > "han kome sted sin broder – she comes instead of her brother"
              >
              > TROTS "in spite of"
              >
              > "vi gade na de strand, trots de rejn – we went to the beach, in
              spite
              > of the rain"
              > "ik
              >
              > VEGEN "because of, on account of"
              >
              > "han fallde vegen de is – she fell beacause of the ice"
              > "de vater frese vegen de kald – the water freezes because of the
              > cold"
              >
              > In enhed ond frendskap

              Dis ar god.
              Erik
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