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Re: Correlatives

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  • David
    Thanks, that s a good bit of research. And identifies an important issue when inventing words for Folksprak: Should we struggle along just finding words that
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 23, 2013
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      Thanks, that's a good bit of research.

      And identifies an important issue when inventing words for Folksprak:
      Should we struggle along just finding words that are common to as many Germanic languages as possible for such important parts of the language? (such as personal pronouns, demonstrative, relative and interrogative pronouns)

      This will likely identify some words that most people can recognize. But also it's likely to be a haphazard and illogical collection of words. And such a method is likely to find some significant gaps -- where there simplyy aren't any words common to all or even most of the Germanic languages. (eg it's easy to find a identify a good word for "we". -- it's much harder to identify one for "hers".) Not so much of an issue for personal pronouns -- those who have attempted it have come up with systems that just almost work. Thanks for the good summary of these in the Wiki. But for those annoying words such as "someone", "everywhere", it's not quite as easy.

      Or do we create some schematic and logical system that might not be natural -- but should at least be easy to learn.

      By the way if you wish to keep researching this, you could check Ingmar's grammar of Middelsprak, and my dictionary/grammar of Frenkisch.

      A dictionary of Frenkisch can be found here:

      https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx0T9Dxrods1NjYwMGU2NzYtN2QyYy00ZjkwLTliODUtMTRjYjI5ZGY5MmE1&hl=en_US

      And the grammar here:
      https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Bx0T9Dxrods1OWI3N2U1NmUtZjNjZi00NmUzLWFlYjItNTQ2NTYxN2QzMmY1&hl=en_US

      I suggest opening the html file in Word and doing a search for "prn." (this should find you all the pronouns". Search for "conj." to find conjunctions and "adv." to find adverbs. My Frenkisch vocabulary has a slightly more complete number of "correlatives" than my Folksprak grammar of 2006. Eventually in Frenkisch I ran out of options based on natural germanic languages for such words and made a few synthetic ones: such as "elshwat" for anything/something and "elsmenn" for anyone/anybody/someone.

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Fenris <fenris.kcf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hy
      >
      > While filling the Wiki with content, i noticed that there aren't many
      > proposals for the correlatives yet and the few, that are included in the
      > Wiki yet (see Correlatives
      > <http://folkspraak.bfadmin.schokokeks.org/wiki/index.php?title=Pronouns#Correlatives>),
      > don't yield a complete concept how to form all the correlatives (mostly
      > the undefined, the universal and the negative ones are lacking). Of
      > course some words wouldn't make sense or aren't really necessary and
      > others are implicit (e.g. posession could be expressed by
      > person-correlative + genitive-affix), but still the tables are quite
      > empty. I would appreciate if the authors of the referenced proposals
      > could correct/complete the tables (and of course also the other content
      > of the Wiki if they want).
      >
      > I wondered if it would be better to make a totally systematic scheme or
      > one, that considers a compromise for every single correlative according
      > to the different situations in the Germanic languages, which could
      > become problematic since there are a some false friends among the
      > correlatives between the Germanic languages (e.g. /some///som/). I guess
      > for the relative pronouns we could either use the interrogative ones
      > (like German, Dutch and English in most situations does) or one single
      > word for all domains (like /som/ in Norwegian and probably other
      > Scandinavian languages as well).
      >
      > I'm reluctant to present my own proposal, because if i'd start making
      > one i probably wouldn't stop after the correlatives, though i think we
      > don't need another grammar-proposal right now :)
      >
      > Greetings,
      > Christian
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Fenris
      OK, so i ve integrated Ingmars pronouns as well. Unfortunately the correlatives-table of his proposal is also quite empty. I will also include Frenkish
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 26, 2013
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        OK, so i've integrated Ingmars pronouns as well. Unfortunately the
        correlatives-table of his proposal is also quite empty. I will also
        include Frenkish shortly.

        I made a little tool to view the pronouns of the different languages and
        proposals (see Personal Pronouns
        <http://folkspraak.bfadmin.schokokeks.org/?page=personal_pronouns> and
        Correlatives
        <http://folkspraak.bfadmin.schokokeks.org/?page=correlatives>) for
        easier comparison. Some natural languages are still missing or
        incomplete, especially Afrikaans, Yiddish and Icelandic (which i would
        consider quite an important factor for Folkspraak, since it is the
        closest one to Proto-Germanic AFAIK). Whoever knows the missing words,
        please tell me and i will include them (Google is not a good reference
        here).

        I also made a draft <http://tinyurl.com/a2ok39n> for an own proposal for
        the correlatives: The endings are supposed to be the words for the
        specific domains (*tid* ~ /time/, *sted* ~ /location/, *man* ~
        /human///person/, ...) except for thing and possession. The prefixes for
        the universal (*al-*), undefined (*et-*) and negative (*iq-*)
        correlatives are taken from different Germanic languages and their
        vowels resemble their semantics: "a" is spoken with an open mouth and
        "i" with a closed one, "e" is somewhere in between. The symbol *q* shall
        represent the [?]-sound; replace it with *ng*, if you like. Any
        suggestions on it?

        Greetings,
        Christian


        PS: I'm not sure if it was a good idea to address this subject when
        there is still no agreement on the grammar or even the
        orthography/phonology... sorry :/



        Am 24.02.2013 02:36, schrieb David:
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks, that's a good bit of research.
        >
        > And identifies an important issue when inventing words for Folksprak:
        > Should we struggle along just finding words that are common to as many
        > Germanic languages as possible for such important parts of the
        > language? (such as personal pronouns, demonstrative, relative and
        > interrogative pronouns)
        >
        > This will likely identify some words that most people can recognize.
        > But also it's likely to be a haphazard and illogical collection of
        > words. And such a method is likely to find some significant gaps --
        > where there simplyy aren't any words common to all or even most of the
        > Germanic languages. (eg it's easy to find a identify a good word for
        > "we". -- it's much harder to identify one for "hers".) Not so much of
        > an issue for personal pronouns -- those who have attempted it have
        > come up with systems that just almost work. Thanks for the good
        > summary of these in the Wiki. But for those annoying words such as
        > "someone", "everywhere", it's not quite as easy.
        >
        > Or do we create some schematic and logical system that might not be
        > natural -- but should at least be easy to learn.
        >
        > By the way if you wish to keep researching this, you could check
        > Ingmar's grammar of Middelsprak, and my dictionary/grammar of Frenkisch.
        >
        > A dictionary of Frenkisch can be found here:
        >
        > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx0T9Dxrods1NjYwMGU2NzYtN2QyYy00ZjkwLTliODUtMTRjYjI5ZGY5MmE1&hl=en_US
        > <https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx0T9Dxrods1NjYwMGU2NzYtN2QyYy00ZjkwLTliODUtMTRjYjI5ZGY5MmE1&hl=en_US>
        >
        > And the grammar here:
        > https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Bx0T9Dxrods1OWI3N2U1NmUtZjNjZi00NmUzLWFlYjItNTQ2NTYxN2QzMmY1&hl=en_US
        > <https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Bx0T9Dxrods1OWI3N2U1NmUtZjNjZi00NmUzLWFlYjItNTQ2NTYxN2QzMmY1&hl=en_US>
        >
        > I suggest opening the html file in Word and doing a search for "prn."
        > (this should find you all the pronouns". Search for "conj." to find
        > conjunctions and "adv." to find adverbs. My Frenkisch vocabulary has a
        > slightly more complete number of "correlatives" than my Folksprak
        > grammar of 2006. Eventually in Frenkisch I ran out of options based on
        > natural germanic languages for such words and made a few synthetic
        > ones: such as "elshwat" for anything/something and "elsmenn" for
        > anyone/anybody/someone.
        >
        >
        >
        >



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