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Re: Frenkisch (f)or Folkspraak?

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  • chamavian
    I started working at the FS grammar this morning, but I must say I m not going very fast yet, it s quite a lot of work so it may last a while before it will be
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 2, 2012
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      I started working at the FS grammar this morning, but I must say I'm not going very fast yet, it's quite a lot of work so it may last a while before it will be ready. But I'm happy I've begun, and it's fun

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ja. I didn't have my break yet, still worked this last week, but now I'm having a few days off, so hopefully some time left To Do The Job.
      >
      > Thanks for your words, mate. Actually I'm okay, but for the last one and a half month or so, it's not going well with my mother, she got very depressed and could hardly be alone anymore, so my sisters and I spent a lot of nights in our old rooms... and quite a few days granny-sitting.
      > Maybe it's also because her husband and her mother died within a few months, and she's feeling lonely all alone in that big house, but honestly she's had this troubles before, about ten years ago, and now when I think back,
      > I remember when I was about 7 years old, my mom had to go to what they called a "rest house" because of "over tensions" (overspanning)
      > She used to tell us that she wouldn't make it until 40 years, well, now she's 72, but... Well, hopefully the medication will start to work and she'll be better.
      >
      > I'll look at the grammar, already printed the new wordbook for a start
      > so...
      >
      > And to everyone:
      > een zalig uiteinde en een gelukkig nieuw jaar gewenst!
      >
      > Ingmar
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Ingmar,
      > > I hope you're taking advantage of the Christmas break to work on the new
      > > Folksprak grammar. No seriously, I hope you're having a rest and
      > > spending some time with your family -- I appreciate it's been a busy and
      > > difficult year for you. It's hard to find any silver-lining from the
      > > grief of losing your father. May you and your family have some happier
      > > times in the coming year :-)
      > >
      > > PLURALIZING NOUNS:
      > >
      > > In regard to the eagerly awaited Folksprak grammar: Please have free
      > > reign to do this as you think works best, just try to keep it somewhat
      > > compatible with my existing dictionaries. I trust you. I'd like to raise
      > > the issue of pluralization of nouns. I'm aware that your preference is
      > > for the normal plural method to be adding a -e to nouns. This is OK with
      > > me, although it's not the same as Frenkisch, where I use a -en suffix.
      > > I would suggest:
      > >
      > > 1. the normal method is adding -e to the noun stem for nouns that end in
      > > a stressed / non-schwa syllable. So "bok" (book) is made plural as
      > > "boke". "Sonn" (sun) is pluralized as "sonne" and "biljett" is
      > > pluralized as "biljette". And "karakterisacion" (characterization) is
      > > made plural as "karakterisacione".
      > >
      > > 2. We try to keep the number of nouns that end in -e in the singular to
      > > a minimum. This won't always be possible, but if there are dubious
      > > nouns, where it is unclear whether the majority of source languages end
      > > in a vowel or not, we should choose to end in no vowel. For example, the
      > > FS word for "berry" (bere) and "shadow" (shade) or breakdown (panne)
      > > should probably end in -e in the singular. In the case of *nekk, it's
      > > more controversial where it should be *nekk or *nekke. Let's go with
      > > *nekk to avoid as many singular nouns ending in -e as possible.
      > >
      > > 3. We have an alternative ending for nouns ending in a schwa vowel. This
      > > is to avoid awkward pronunciations and ambiguous spellings with several
      > > schwas in sequence. So nouns ending in unstressed schwa vowels use a
      > > different plural ending, ie "-s". That is typical endings such as "-er,
      > > "-en", "-el" and of course "-e" should form the plural with "-s: So
      > > "teken" (sign) is pluralized as "tekens", "shade" is pluralized as
      > > "shades" and "cirkel" (circle) is pluralized as "cirkels".
      > >
      > > So the rule that I propose is:
      > > If a noun ends in a stressed syllable or a non-schwa syllable, then the
      > > plural suffix should be "-e".
      > > If a noun ends in a schwa syllable, then the plural suffix should be -s.
      > >
      > >
      > > Note that this is similar to, but NOT the same as Middelsprake. If I
      > > recall your Middelsprake rules correctly, all multi-syllable nouns used
      > > "-s" for the plural, regardless of whether the final syllable was
      > > stressed/non-schwa or not. So in Middelsprake, the plural of "station"
      > > was "stations". For my proposal for Folksprak, the plural of "stacion"
      > > would be "statione".
      > >
      > > This is also similar to the rules for Dutch, where most nouns ending in
      > > -er, -en, -el, use a -s ending, otherwise the normal ending is -en.
      > >
      > > One good way to teach or remember the proposed plural rule is:
      > > Pluralized nouns MUST end in an un-stressed and schwa-vowel syllable.
      > >
      > >
      > > This still leaves a tricky issue with "Latin" words that have the
      > > original Latin (or Greek) case ending in the singular. Typically, these
      > > are words ending in -us, -um, and -is. Words like *datum, *museum,
      > > *fokus, *konus, *basis, *tesis.
      > > My opinion is, when there is doubt, eliminate the endings. Often there
      > > are situations where some of the source languages retain the ending, and
      > > others have modernized/discarded the ending. Eg English has both "base"
      > > and "basis". Engllish has "thesis", Dutch as "these". In cases where
      > > there is lack of agreement, favour the noun form that drops these
      > > endings. After that, it's up to you how to pluralize the remaining
      > > words. In Frenkisch, I decided to create a new rule for pluralizing
      > > words ending in -us, -um or -is. In Folksprak, such a rule may not be
      > > desirable. But you still need some rules for where the stress falls on
      > > such words and the implications of how to pluralize them. Don't blame
      > > me, but all our source languages have such words and need to have rules
      > > or exceptions to rules on how to stress them and to pluralize them.
      > >
      > > On 21/12/2011 19:14, chamavian wrote:
      > > >
      > > > But I'm still from the sweet sixties, you know (l'annee fameuse de
      > > > soixante-neuf)... Anyway, far out that you made our Wordbok "tiny",
      > > > now I'll have to wait till I'm alone and can print it.
      > > >
      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Du is bar alder als ek! Nu is niht de tid to pensionaere di! Ek ha
      > > > > makede en nyw Wordbok for di. Dis is bloet 107 A4-bladen!
      > > > >
      > > > > On 20/12/2011 23:12, chamavian wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Ah, that would be great. For me as a 40 plus guy I prefer printed
      > > > > > papers that I can hold in my hands and go through over reading from
      > > > > > a PC screen
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, Hermann Philipps
      > > > > > <hphilipps@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The html file can be manipulated with a relatively small amount of
      > > > > > > work in a way to reduce it to about 100 A4 pages as I did recently
      > > > > > > with the English-Frenkisch and Frenkisch-English dictionaries.
      > > > > > > I have just uploaded the English-Frenkish one as a PDF file for your
      > > > > > > information. Unfortunately I don't know any more how I did it but I
      > > > > > > should be able to do the same for the Folksprak thing.
      > > > > > > I can provide that as HTML, PDF and Microsoft Word DOC.
      > > > > > > Give me a few days because currently I am too busy with other stuff.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hermann
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > David Parke schrieb:
      > > > > > > > I just made a PDF of the file. It came to 1922 A4s. That will
      > > > kill
      > > > > > a lot
      > > > > > > > of trees.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > On 20/12/2011 18:32, chamavian wrote:
      > > > > > > >> Embarrassing: I tried to print the English to Folksprak Wordbook
      > > > > > at my
      > > > > > > >> office yesterday, but the file was so immense, the copies kept
      > > > > > coming.
      > > > > > > >> I didn't know how to stop it first, only after maybe a hundred
      > > > > > pages I
      > > > > > > >> found out how to cancel. And that was only half way the letter B
      > > > > > ! My
      > > > > > > >> colleagues were looking at me, wondering what I was doing ;-)
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
      > > > <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>> OK I'll do that
      > > > > > > >>>
      > > > > > > >>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>> Use the dictionaries in the "Wordboken" folder of the Yahoo
      > > > > > > >> Folkspraak group. The words in those dictionaries are
      > > > folksprakified
      > > > > > > >> -- eg "bok" instead of "bouk", "drive" instead of "dryve".
      > > > > > > >>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
      > > > <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>> OK, I shall write the FS grammar. I don't know when it will be
      > > > > > > >> ready but I promise. And I'll use the Frenkisch dictionaries etc
      > > > > > for that.
      > > > > > > >>>>> Ingmar
      > > > > > > >>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Many of those "improvements" to my beloved Frenkisch are
      > > > > > > >> already a part
      > > > > > > >>>>>> of the dictionary that I did for Folksprak earlier this year.
      > > > > > > >> It's
      > > > > > > >>>>>> essentially the Frenkisch lexicon with a major simplification
      > > > > > > >> to the
      > > > > > > >>>>>> phonology and spelling. The biggest difference is the
      > > > > > > >> phonology of
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Frenkisch is dominated by features common to German, English
      > > > > > > >> and Dutch.
      > > > > > > >>>>>> The Folksprak phonology has a vowel system more like
      > > > > > > >> Scandinavian and
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Low German (original long vowels remain pure rather than
      > > > > > > >> evolving into
      > > > > > > >>>>>> diphthongs).
      > > > > > > >>>>>> See the document in the files section called "differences
      > > > > > > >> between FS and
      > > > > > > >>>>>> FK.pdf" for a summary of the major differences in
      > > > phonology and
      > > > > > > >>>>>> orthography.
      > > > > > > >>>>>> I've also hosted the file here:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > >
      > > > https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bx0T9Dxrods1ZjUyMzI3MzktM2ZlMy00Mzk1LWI3ODAtM2NjMzA4ODFkNmNm
      > > > > > > >>>>>> I think that right now, a more urgent need is for a grammar
      > > > > > > >> document to
      > > > > > > >>>>>> tie with the dictionaries. I've noticed several requests,
      > > > from
      > > > > > > >> casually
      > > > > > > >>>>>> interested people, for a grammar. Even with a good
      > > > dictionary, a
      > > > > > > >>>>>> language is impossible to speak without a grammar. I assume
      > > > > > > >> those people
      > > > > > > >>>>>> start out interested, can't find an easily accessible
      > > > grammar,
      > > > > > > >> get
      > > > > > > >>>>>> disappointed and leave never to visit folksprak again,
      > > > > > > >>>>>> I think a priority should be getting an grammar document
      > > > > > > >> published. This
      > > > > > > >>>>>> should build on and use the vocabulary in the dictionaries.
      > > > > > > >>>>>> It need such basics as:
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Pronunciation and spelling guide
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Articles -- definite, indefinite
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Pronouns -- personal, demostrative and interrogative
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Nouns -- plural forming rules
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Adjectives -- comparatives, superlatives, adverbs,
      > > > irregulars (eg
      > > > > > > >>>>>> god/better/best)
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Verbs -- infinitives, present, past, perfect. future,
      > > > auxiliaries
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Essential adverbs and prepositions
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Word order -- basic syntax, questions, clauses
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Rather than the grammar be another thing with my influence
      > > > > > > >> stamped all
      > > > > > > >>>>>> over it, and adapted from Frenkisch, I really wish somebody
      > > > > > > >> else would
      > > > > > > >>>>>> have go at writing this. Perhaps Ingmar could write the
      > > > > > > >> grammar --
      > > > > > > >>>>>> preferably trying to keep it compatible as possible with my
      > > > > > > >>>>>> dictionaries. I promise that if Ingmar writes a grammar, I
      > > > > > > >> will not
      > > > > > > >>>>>> criticize or nit-pick it too much. So even if he wants to
      > > > change
      > > > > > > >>>>>> Frenkisch's "kunne" into a regular verb with the past
      > > > tense of
      > > > > > > >>>>>> "kannede"(yuck), I'd accept that, just so we could see some
      > > > > > > >> progress..
      > > > > > > >>>>>> I'll even adapt the dictionaries to fit with it, if the
      > > > > > > >> grammar author
      > > > > > > >>>>>> feels the need to change the form of pronouns etc.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>> One other point I'd like to raise that would contribute a lot
      > > > > > > >> to the
      > > > > > > >>>>>> development of Folksprak, is that some other people should
      > > > > > > >> research /
      > > > > > > >>>>>> propose / contribute some words. The Frenkisch lexicon
      > > > has now
      > > > > > > >> passed
      > > > > > > >>>>>> 6000 words which a quite respectable vocabulary size. But
      > > > it's
      > > > > > > >> still
      > > > > > > >>>>>> not enough. Every time I try to write in Frenkisch or
      > > > > > > >> Folksprak, I
      > > > > > > >>>>>> still find myself struggling to find word to express myself.
      > > > > > > >> Sometimes
      > > > > > > >>>>>> for quite basic or essential concepts. And often I must
      > > > invent
      > > > > > > >> words
      > > > > > > >>>>>> on-the-fly, as and when I need them. So come on, propose some
      > > > > > > >> new words
      > > > > > > >>>>>> for the dictionary! And if you are writing something in
      > > > FS and
      > > > > > > >> "invent"
      > > > > > > >>>>>> a new FSish word, don't just use it once in your prose and
      > > > > > > >> then forget
      > > > > > > >>>>>> about it. Post on the Group the new words that you've created
      > > > > > > >> and what
      > > > > > > >>>>>> they should mean and the justification for these words
      > > > (eg the
      > > > > > > >> source
      > > > > > > >>>>>> language words that the new word is based on). Then I can
      > > > keep
      > > > > > > >> track of
      > > > > > > >>>>>> these words and add them to future versions of the
      > > > dictionary.
      > > > > > > >> Some
      > > > > > > >>>>>> people (ie conlangers) enjoy making up languages as they go
      > > > > > > >> along. But
      > > > > > > >>>>>> most people just want the words and grammatical rules that
      > > > > > > >> they need
      > > > > > > >>>>>> presented to them pre-digested.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>> On 14/12/2011 18:19, chamavian wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Thanks Andrew, I agree on most points, but I still think an
      > > > > > > >> AE sound
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> is necessary, and it's part of the already existing
      > > > > > > >> Frenkisch, which
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> imo we shouldn't want to change structurally now, if we'd
      > > > > > > >> choose it as
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> the base for Folkspraek.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Btw what I meant with "give your opinions" was especially
      > > > > > > >> about that
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> proposal of mine: taking Frekish as the base for Folkspraak.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> I'd like to hear more
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"
      > > > > > > >> <anjarrette@>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>> I agree with Hermann that the apostrophe should be
      > > > > > > >> replaced with
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> 'e', and that <j> in words such as <berejt>, <naij>, etc.
      > > > > > > >> should be
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> replaced with <ch> pronounced /x/.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Personally I don't like having /E:/ without corresponding
      > > > > > > >> /O:/ (and
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> also feel that if you already have /e:/, you don't need /E:/
      > > > > > > >> -- and
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> also prefer to distinguish vowels more qualitatively than
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> quantitatively, it makes them easier to recognize and also
      > > > > > > >> easier to
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> distinguish when singing e.g.). I would get rid of <ai> or
      > > > > > > >> <ae> and
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> replace it by <a>, a long /a:/ or /A:/. Or else make <ai> be
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> pronounced /aj/ rather than /E:/ (and <ei> could be /Ej/).
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Andrew
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
      > > > > > > >> <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Great. I wonder what other members think about this.
      > > > > > > >> Give your
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> opinions, please
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Hermann"
      > > > > > > >> <hphilipps@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I'm all for it. And I would favour frenkish.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The annoying apostophe could simply be replaced by an
      > > > > > > >> 'e' (and
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> pronounced like a 'schwa' or dropped altogether such as in
      > > > > > > >> "eng'lish".
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The 'j' as in 'berejt' probably was an attempt to take
      > > > > > > >> the
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> English pronounciation into account, but it makes such words
      > > > > > > >> somewhat
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> more unrecognizable. Perhaps 'gh' would be good, but 'ch' is
      > > > > > > >> faster to
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> write. etc., etc.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Let's go ahead in this way, please.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hermann
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
      > > > > > > >> <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, sent to early, I'll finish my message now:
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Listen up please guys. I hope you're enjoying the
      > > > > > > >> funny Dutch
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> movies I sent here the last few weeks, but...
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we haven't talked a lot (or at all) about Folkspraak
      > > > > > > >> anymore
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> lately.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't seem to be such an interesting subject
      > > > > > > >> anymore.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Only way to get a reaction from our once FS activist
      > > > > > > >> David
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Parke is posting something about pinguins, snails or singers
      > > > > > > >> from
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Kiwonia ;-)
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sad but true, but there still is no Folkspraak. Or
      > > > > > > >> maybe I
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> should say: there is not one Folkspraak, because of course
      > > > > > > >> we have
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> several varieties that are pretty well developped, such as
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Middelsprake and Frenkisch, especially the latter.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it's time that we should take a decision, make
      > > > > > > >> a choice,
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> instead of keeping discussing endlessly.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I for me say: let's take David Parke's Frenkisch as
      > > > > > > >> a base and
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> call it just Folkspraak. Then consequently make it not only
      > > > > > > >> Dave's
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> personal project anymore, but give others the right to bring
      > > > > > > >> up their
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> ideas and change some minor things, for instance in the
      > > > > > > >> orthography or
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> whatever.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Then we have the chance to make Folkspraak a common
      > > > > > > >> project
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> again, depending not only on two or three people with a big
      > > > > > > >> mouth.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Because we've seen so often that other members or
      > > > > > > >> newbies
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> quitting or getting back to silence after asking for
      > > > > > > >> guidelines or for
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> THE Folkspraak in vain. When we've got a solid base which
      > > > > > > >> people can
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> work on a little, Folkspraak has something to offer again.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/frenkisch/
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Below a sample text in Frenkisch from our own Hermann.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Personally I must say I'd like some spelling rules
      > > > > > > >> altered,
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> such as "ai" [E:] in "aivend", I think that could better be
      > > > > > > >> "aevend",
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> also we might consider whether "-j" (Dutch/German
      > > > > > > >> "-ch",
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> English "-gh") such as in "berejt", "hw-" as in "hwann"
      > > > and the
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> annoying apostrophe "-'-" as in brek'd or fliej'd.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> But these are details now, first I'd like to have
      > > > > > > >> your opinion,
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> should we take Frenkisch (f)or Folkspraak?
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ingmar
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Berejt aut Tudischland: Kou steut mid en moped
      > > > > > > >> tousamen
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "De niewntejnde af oktober, 2011. Forig
      > > > > > > >> mondagaivend hadd en
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> seventejnjairig
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> jonge en onbehaglik meuting mid en kou in de torp
      > > > > > > >> Much (naij
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bonn an de Ryn).
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ongefair om twentig-ein our tritig reid de jonge
      > > > > > > >> mid syn
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> moped (Vespa) fra
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hevinghausen tou Scheidhof, hwann plutslik en kou
      > > > > > > >> storm'd
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> aut de boschen op de
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> straite. De Vespa steuted wider de kou, ond de
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> seventejnjairige sturted en
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> brek'd en arm. De kou, fermoudlik reud-braun,
      > > > > > > >> fliej'd. Nejts
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> is kenn'd
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> betreffend de toustand af de dier."
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ick greut all,
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hermann
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > > > > > >>>>>>> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4075 - Release
      > > > > > > >> Date: 12/11/11 19:34:00
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > > >>>>>>
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > > > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > > > > > >> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4084 - Release Date:
      > > > > > 12/16/11 07:34:00
      > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > > > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4091 - Release Date:
      > > > 12/19/11 19:34:00
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4091 - Release Date: 12/19/11 19:34:00
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • Hermann Philipps
      Quite understandable. Take your time, and a gelukkig nieuw jaar! Hermann
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 3, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Quite understandable. Take your time, and a gelukkig nieuw jaar!
        Hermann

        chamavian schrieb:
        >
        >
        > I started working at the FS grammar this morning, but I must say I'm not
        > going very fast yet, it's quite a lot of work so it may last a while
        > before it will be ready. But I'm happy I've begun, and it's fun
        >
        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ja. I didn't have my break yet, still worked this last week, but now
        > I'm having a few days off, so hopefully some time left To Do The Job.
        > >
        > > Thanks for your words, mate. Actually I'm okay, but for the last one
        > and a half month or so, it's not going well with my mother, she got very
        > depressed and could hardly be alone anymore, so my sisters and I spent a
        > lot of nights in our old rooms... and quite a few days granny-sitting.
        > > Maybe it's also because her husband and her mother died within a few
        > months, and she's feeling lonely all alone in that big house, but
        > honestly she's had this troubles before, about ten years ago, and now
        > when I think back,
        > > I remember when I was about 7 years old, my mom had to go to what
        > they called a "rest house" because of "over tensions" (overspanning)
        > > She used to tell us that she wouldn't make it until 40 years, well,
        > now she's 72, but... Well, hopefully the medication will start to work
        > and she'll be better.
        > >
        > > I'll look at the grammar, already printed the new wordbook for a start
        > > so...
        > >
        > > And to everyone:
        > > een zalig uiteinde en een gelukkig nieuw jaar gewenst!
        > >
        > > Ingmar
        > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Ingmar,
        > > > I hope you're taking advantage of the Christmas break to work on
        > the new
        > > > Folksprak grammar. No seriously, I hope you're having a rest and
        > > > spending some time with your family -- I appreciate it's been a
        > busy and
        > > > difficult year for you. It's hard to find any silver-lining from the
        > > > grief of losing your father. May you and your family have some happier
        > > > times in the coming year :-)
        > > >
        > > > PLURALIZING NOUNS:
        > > >
        > > > In regard to the eagerly awaited Folksprak grammar: Please have free
        > > > reign to do this as you think works best, just try to keep it somewhat
        > > > compatible with my existing dictionaries. I trust you. I'd like to
        > raise
        > > > the issue of pluralization of nouns. I'm aware that your preference is
        > > > for the normal plural method to be adding a -e to nouns. This is OK
        > with
        > > > me, although it's not the same as Frenkisch, where I use a -en suffix.
        > > > I would suggest:
        > > >
        > > > 1. the normal method is adding -e to the noun stem for nouns that
        > end in
        > > > a stressed / non-schwa syllable. So "bok" (book) is made plural as
        > > > "boke". "Sonn" (sun) is pluralized as "sonne" and "biljett" is
        > > > pluralized as "biljette". And "karakterisacion" (characterization) is
        > > > made plural as "karakterisacione".
        > > >
        > > > 2. We try to keep the number of nouns that end in -e in the
        > singular to
        > > > a minimum. This won't always be possible, but if there are dubious
        > > > nouns, where it is unclear whether the majority of source languages
        > end
        > > > in a vowel or not, we should choose to end in no vowel. For
        > example, the
        > > > FS word for "berry" (bere) and "shadow" (shade) or breakdown (panne)
        > > > should probably end in -e in the singular. In the case of *nekk, it's
        > > > more controversial where it should be *nekk or *nekke. Let's go with
        > > > *nekk to avoid as many singular nouns ending in -e as possible.
        > > >
        > > > 3. We have an alternative ending for nouns ending in a schwa vowel.
        > This
        > > > is to avoid awkward pronunciations and ambiguous spellings with
        > several
        > > > schwas in sequence. So nouns ending in unstressed schwa vowels use a
        > > > different plural ending, ie "-s". That is typical endings such as
        > "-er,
        > > > "-en", "-el" and of course "-e" should form the plural with "-s: So
        > > > "teken" (sign) is pluralized as "tekens", "shade" is pluralized as
        > > > "shades" and "cirkel" (circle) is pluralized as "cirkels".
        > > >
        > > > So the rule that I propose is:
        > > > If a noun ends in a stressed syllable or a non-schwa syllable, then
        > the
        > > > plural suffix should be "-e".
        > > > If a noun ends in a schwa syllable, then the plural suffix should
        > be -s.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Note that this is similar to, but NOT the same as Middelsprake. If I
        > > > recall your Middelsprake rules correctly, all multi-syllable nouns
        > used
        > > > "-s" for the plural, regardless of whether the final syllable was
        > > > stressed/non-schwa or not. So in Middelsprake, the plural of "station"
        > > > was "stations". For my proposal for Folksprak, the plural of "stacion"
        > > > would be "statione".
        > > >
        > > > This is also similar to the rules for Dutch, where most nouns
        > ending in
        > > > -er, -en, -el, use a -s ending, otherwise the normal ending is -en.
        > > >
        > > > One good way to teach or remember the proposed plural rule is:
        > > > Pluralized nouns MUST end in an un-stressed and schwa-vowel syllable.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > This still leaves a tricky issue with "Latin" words that have the
        > > > original Latin (or Greek) case ending in the singular. Typically,
        > these
        > > > are words ending in -us, -um, and -is. Words like *datum, *museum,
        > > > *fokus, *konus, *basis, *tesis.
        > > > My opinion is, when there is doubt, eliminate the endings. Often there
        > > > are situations where some of the source languages retain the
        > ending, and
        > > > others have modernized/discarded the ending. Eg English has both
        > "base"
        > > > and "basis". Engllish has "thesis", Dutch as "these". In cases where
        > > > there is lack of agreement, favour the noun form that drops these
        > > > endings. After that, it's up to you how to pluralize the remaining
        > > > words. In Frenkisch, I decided to create a new rule for pluralizing
        > > > words ending in -us, -um or -is. In Folksprak, such a rule may not be
        > > > desirable. But you still need some rules for where the stress falls on
        > > > such words and the implications of how to pluralize them. Don't blame
        > > > me, but all our source languages have such words and need to have
        > rules
        > > > or exceptions to rules on how to stress them and to pluralize them.
        > > >
        > > > On 21/12/2011 19:14, chamavian wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > But I'm still from the sweet sixties, you know (l'annee fameuse de
        > > > > soixante-neuf)... Anyway, far out that you made our Wordbok "tiny",
        > > > > now I'll have to wait till I'm alone and can print it.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Du is bar alder als ek! Nu is niht de tid to pensionaere di! Ek ha
        > > > > > makede en nyw Wordbok for di. Dis is bloet 107 A4-bladen!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On 20/12/2011 23:12, chamavian wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Ah, that would be great. For me as a 40 plus guy I prefer printed
        > > > > > > papers that I can hold in my hands and go through over
        > reading from
        > > > > > > a PC screen
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, Hermann Philipps
        > > > > > > <hphilipps@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The html file can be manipulated with a relatively small
        > amount of
        > > > > > > > work in a way to reduce it to about 100 A4 pages as I did
        > recently
        > > > > > > > with the English-Frenkisch and Frenkisch-English dictionaries.
        > > > > > > > I have just uploaded the English-Frenkish one as a PDF file
        > for your
        > > > > > > > information. Unfortunately I don't know any more how I did
        > it but I
        > > > > > > > should be able to do the same for the Folksprak thing.
        > > > > > > > I can provide that as HTML, PDF and Microsoft Word DOC.
        > > > > > > > Give me a few days because currently I am too busy with
        > other stuff.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hermann
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > David Parke schrieb:
        > > > > > > > > I just made a PDF of the file. It came to 1922 A4s. That
        > will
        > > > > kill
        > > > > > > a lot
        > > > > > > > > of trees.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > On 20/12/2011 18:32, chamavian wrote:
        > > > > > > > >> Embarrassing: I tried to print the English to Folksprak
        > Wordbook
        > > > > > > at my
        > > > > > > > >> office yesterday, but the file was so immense, the
        > copies kept
        > > > > > > coming.
        > > > > > > > >> I didn't know how to stop it first, only after maybe a
        > hundred
        > > > > > > pages I
        > > > > > > > >> found out how to cancel. And that was only half way the
        > letter B
        > > > > > > ! My
        > > > > > > > >> colleagues were looking at me, wondering what I was
        > doing ;-)
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > >> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
        > > > > <roerd096@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>> OK I'll do that
        > > > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > > > >>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@>
        > wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>> Use the dictionaries in the "Wordboken" folder of the
        > Yahoo
        > > > > > > > >> Folkspraak group. The words in those dictionaries are
        > > > > folksprakified
        > > > > > > > >> -- eg "bok" instead of "bouk", "drive" instead of "dryve".
        > > > > > > > >>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
        > > > > <roerd096@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>> OK, I shall write the FS grammar. I don't know when
        > it will be
        > > > > > > > >> ready but I promise. And I'll use the Frenkisch
        > dictionaries etc
        > > > > > > for that.
        > > > > > > > >>>>> Ingmar
        > > > > > > > >>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke
        > <parked@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Many of those "improvements" to my beloved Frenkisch are
        > > > > > > > >> already a part
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> of the dictionary that I did for Folksprak earlier
        > this year.
        > > > > > > > >> It's
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> essentially the Frenkisch lexicon with a major
        > simplification
        > > > > > > > >> to the
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> phonology and spelling. The biggest difference is the
        > > > > > > > >> phonology of
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Frenkisch is dominated by features common to German,
        > English
        > > > > > > > >> and Dutch.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> The Folksprak phonology has a vowel system more like
        > > > > > > > >> Scandinavian and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Low German (original long vowels remain pure rather than
        > > > > > > > >> evolving into
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> diphthongs).
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> See the document in the files section called
        > "differences
        > > > > > > > >> between FS and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> FK.pdf" for a summary of the major differences in
        > > > > phonology and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> orthography.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> I've also hosted the file here:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bx0T9Dxrods1ZjUyMzI3MzktM2ZlMy00Mzk1LWI3ODAtM2NjMzA4ODFkNmNm
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> I think that right now, a more urgent need is for a
        > grammar
        > > > > > > > >> document to
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> tie with the dictionaries. I've noticed several
        > requests,
        > > > > from
        > > > > > > > >> casually
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> interested people, for a grammar. Even with a good
        > > > > dictionary, a
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> language is impossible to speak without a grammar. I
        > assume
        > > > > > > > >> those people
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> start out interested, can't find an easily accessible
        > > > > grammar,
        > > > > > > > >> get
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> disappointed and leave never to visit folksprak again,
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> I think a priority should be getting an grammar document
        > > > > > > > >> published. This
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> should build on and use the vocabulary in the
        > dictionaries.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> It need such basics as:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Pronunciation and spelling guide
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Articles -- definite, indefinite
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Pronouns -- personal, demostrative and interrogative
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Nouns -- plural forming rules
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Adjectives -- comparatives, superlatives, adverbs,
        > > > > irregulars (eg
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> god/better/best)
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Verbs -- infinitives, present, past, perfect. future,
        > > > > auxiliaries
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Essential adverbs and prepositions
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Word order -- basic syntax, questions, clauses
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Rather than the grammar be another thing with my
        > influence
        > > > > > > > >> stamped all
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> over it, and adapted from Frenkisch, I really wish
        > somebody
        > > > > > > > >> else would
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> have go at writing this. Perhaps Ingmar could write the
        > > > > > > > >> grammar --
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> preferably trying to keep it compatible as possible
        > with my
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> dictionaries. I promise that if Ingmar writes a
        > grammar, I
        > > > > > > > >> will not
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> criticize or nit-pick it too much. So even if he
        > wants to
        > > > > change
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> Frenkisch's "kunne" into a regular verb with the past
        > > > > tense of
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> "kannede"(yuck), I'd accept that, just so we could
        > see some
        > > > > > > > >> progress..
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> I'll even adapt the dictionaries to fit with it, if the
        > > > > > > > >> grammar author
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> feels the need to change the form of pronouns etc.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> One other point I'd like to raise that would
        > contribute a lot
        > > > > > > > >> to the
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> development of Folksprak, is that some other people
        > should
        > > > > > > > >> research /
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> propose / contribute some words. The Frenkisch lexicon
        > > > > has now
        > > > > > > > >> passed
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> 6000 words which a quite respectable vocabulary
        > size. But
        > > > > it's
        > > > > > > > >> still
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> not enough. Every time I try to write in Frenkisch or
        > > > > > > > >> Folksprak, I
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> still find myself struggling to find word to express
        > myself.
        > > > > > > > >> Sometimes
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> for quite basic or essential concepts. And often I must
        > > > > invent
        > > > > > > > >> words
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> on-the-fly, as and when I need them. So come on,
        > propose some
        > > > > > > > >> new words
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> for the dictionary! And if you are writing something in
        > > > > FS and
        > > > > > > > >> "invent"
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> a new FSish word, don't just use it once in your
        > prose and
        > > > > > > > >> then forget
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> about it. Post on the Group the new words that
        > you've created
        > > > > > > > >> and what
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> they should mean and the justification for these words
        > > > > (eg the
        > > > > > > > >> source
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> language words that the new word is based on). Then
        > I can
        > > > > keep
        > > > > > > > >> track of
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> these words and add them to future versions of the
        > > > > dictionary.
        > > > > > > > >> Some
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> people (ie conlangers) enjoy making up languages as
        > they go
        > > > > > > > >> along. But
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> most people just want the words and grammatical
        > rules that
        > > > > > > > >> they need
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> presented to them pre-digested.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> On 14/12/2011 18:19, chamavian wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Thanks Andrew, I agree on most points, but I still
        > think an
        > > > > > > > >> AE sound
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> is necessary, and it's part of the already existing
        > > > > > > > >> Frenkisch, which
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> imo we shouldn't want to change structurally now,
        > if we'd
        > > > > > > > >> choose it as
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the base for Folkspraek.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Btw what I meant with "give your opinions" was
        > especially
        > > > > > > > >> about that
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> proposal of mine: taking Frekish as the base for
        > Folkspraak.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I'd like to hear more
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"
        > > > > > > > >> <anjarrette@>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> I agree with Hermann that the apostrophe should be
        > > > > > > > >> replaced with
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> 'e', and that <j> in words such as <berejt>,
        > <naij>, etc.
        > > > > > > > >> should be
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> replaced with <ch> pronounced /x/.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Personally I don't like having /E:/ without
        > corresponding
        > > > > > > > >> /O:/ (and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> also feel that if you already have /e:/, you don't
        > need /E:/
        > > > > > > > >> -- and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> also prefer to distinguish vowels more
        > qualitatively than
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> quantitatively, it makes them easier to recognize
        > and also
        > > > > > > > >> easier to
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> distinguish when singing e.g.). I would get rid of
        > <ai> or
        > > > > > > > >> <ae> and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> replace it by <a>, a long /a:/ or /A:/. Or else
        > make <ai> be
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> pronounced /aj/ rather than /E:/ (and <ei> could be
        > /Ej/).
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Andrew
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
        > > > > > > > >> <roerd096@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Great. I wonder what other members think about this.
        > > > > > > > >> Give your
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> opinions, please
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Hermann"
        > > > > > > > >> <hphilipps@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I'm all for it. And I would favour frenkish.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The annoying apostophe could simply be replaced
        > by an
        > > > > > > > >> 'e' (and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> pronounced like a 'schwa' or dropped altogether
        > such as in
        > > > > > > > >> "eng'lish".
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The 'j' as in 'berejt' probably was an attempt
        > to take
        > > > > > > > >> the
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> English pronounciation into account, but it makes
        > such words
        > > > > > > > >> somewhat
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> more unrecognizable. Perhaps 'gh' would be good,
        > but 'ch' is
        > > > > > > > >> faster to
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> write. etc., etc.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Let's go ahead in this way, please.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hermann
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
        > > > > > > > >> <roerd096@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, sent to early, I'll finish my message now:
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Listen up please guys. I hope you're enjoying the
        > > > > > > > >> funny Dutch
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> movies I sent here the last few weeks, but...
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we haven't talked a lot (or at all) about
        > Folkspraak
        > > > > > > > >> anymore
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> lately.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't seem to be such an interesting subject
        > > > > > > > >> anymore.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Only way to get a reaction from our once FS
        > activist
        > > > > > > > >> David
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Parke is posting something about pinguins, snails
        > or singers
        > > > > > > > >> from
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Kiwonia ;-)
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sad but true, but there still is no Folkspraak. Or
        > > > > > > > >> maybe I
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> should say: there is not one Folkspraak, because of
        > course
        > > > > > > > >> we have
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> several varieties that are pretty well developped,
        > such as
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Middelsprake and Frenkisch, especially the latter.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it's time that we should take a decision,
        > make
        > > > > > > > >> a choice,
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> instead of keeping discussing endlessly.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I for me say: let's take David Parke's Frenkisch as
        > > > > > > > >> a base and
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> call it just Folkspraak. Then consequently make it
        > not only
        > > > > > > > >> Dave's
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> personal project anymore, but give others the right
        > to bring
        > > > > > > > >> up their
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> ideas and change some minor things, for instance in the
        > > > > > > > >> orthography or
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> whatever.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Then we have the chance to make Folkspraak a common
        > > > > > > > >> project
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> again, depending not only on two or three people
        > with a big
        > > > > > > > >> mouth.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Because we've seen so often that other members or
        > > > > > > > >> newbies
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> quitting or getting back to silence after asking for
        > > > > > > > >> guidelines or for
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> THE Folkspraak in vain. When we've got a solid base
        > which
        > > > > > > > >> people can
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> work on a little, Folkspraak has something to offer
        > again.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/frenkisch/
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Below a sample text in Frenkisch from our own
        > Hermann.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Personally I must say I'd like some spelling rules
        > > > > > > > >> altered,
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> such as "ai" [E:] in "aivend", I think that could
        > better be
        > > > > > > > >> "aevend",
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> also we might consider whether "-j" (Dutch/German
        > > > > > > > >> "-ch",
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> English "-gh") such as in "berejt", "hw-" as in
        > "hwann"
        > > > > and the
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> annoying apostrophe "-'-" as in brek'd or fliej'd.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> But these are details now, first I'd like to have
        > > > > > > > >> your opinion,
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> should we take Frenkisch (f)or Folkspraak?
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ingmar
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Berejt aut Tudischland: Kou steut mid en moped
        > > > > > > > >> tousamen
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "De niewntejnde af oktober, 2011. Forig
        > > > > > > > >> mondagaivend hadd en
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> seventejnjairig
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> jonge en onbehaglik meuting mid en kou in de torp
        > > > > > > > >> Much (naij
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bonn an de Ryn).
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ongefair om twentig-ein our tritig reid de jonge
        > > > > > > > >> mid syn
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> moped (Vespa) fra
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hevinghausen tou Scheidhof, hwann plutslik en kou
        > > > > > > > >> storm'd
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> aut de boschen op de
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> straite. De Vespa steuted wider de kou, ond de
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> seventejnjairige sturted en
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> brek'd en arm. De kou, fermoudlik reud-braun,
        > > > > > > > >> fliej'd. Nejts
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> is kenn'd
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> betreffend de toustand af de dier."
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ick greut all,
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hermann
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4075 -
        > Release
        > > > > > > > >> Date: 12/11/11 19:34:00
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > > > >>>>>>
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > > > > > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > > > > > > >> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4084 -
        > Release Date:
        > > > > > > 12/16/11 07:34:00
        > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > > > > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4091 - Release Date:
        > > > > 12/19/11 19:34:00
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4091 - Release Date:
        > 12/19/11 19:34:00
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
      • chamavian
        To you (all) as well! I just came back from the cinema, watched Sherlock Holmes 2, very entertaining
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 3, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          To you (all) as well!
          I just came back from the cinema, watched Sherlock Holmes 2, very entertaining

          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Hermann Philipps <hphilipps@...> wrote:
          >
          > Quite understandable. Take your time, and a gelukkig nieuw jaar!
          > Hermann
          >
          > chamavian schrieb:
          > >
          > >
          > > I started working at the FS grammar this morning, but I must say I'm not
          > > going very fast yet, it's quite a lot of work so it may last a while
          > > before it will be ready. But I'm happy I've begun, and it's fun
          > >
          > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Ja. I didn't have my break yet, still worked this last week, but now
          > > I'm having a few days off, so hopefully some time left To Do The Job.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks for your words, mate. Actually I'm okay, but for the last one
          > > and a half month or so, it's not going well with my mother, she got very
          > > depressed and could hardly be alone anymore, so my sisters and I spent a
          > > lot of nights in our old rooms... and quite a few days granny-sitting.
          > > > Maybe it's also because her husband and her mother died within a few
          > > months, and she's feeling lonely all alone in that big house, but
          > > honestly she's had this troubles before, about ten years ago, and now
          > > when I think back,
          > > > I remember when I was about 7 years old, my mom had to go to what
          > > they called a "rest house" because of "over tensions" (overspanning)
          > > > She used to tell us that she wouldn't make it until 40 years, well,
          > > now she's 72, but... Well, hopefully the medication will start to work
          > > and she'll be better.
          > > >
          > > > I'll look at the grammar, already printed the new wordbook for a start
          > > > so...
          > > >
          > > > And to everyone:
          > > > een zalig uiteinde en een gelukkig nieuw jaar gewenst!
          > > >
          > > > Ingmar
          > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi Ingmar,
          > > > > I hope you're taking advantage of the Christmas break to work on
          > > the new
          > > > > Folksprak grammar. No seriously, I hope you're having a rest and
          > > > > spending some time with your family -- I appreciate it's been a
          > > busy and
          > > > > difficult year for you. It's hard to find any silver-lining from the
          > > > > grief of losing your father. May you and your family have some happier
          > > > > times in the coming year :-)
          > > > >
          > > > > PLURALIZING NOUNS:
          > > > >
          > > > > In regard to the eagerly awaited Folksprak grammar: Please have free
          > > > > reign to do this as you think works best, just try to keep it somewhat
          > > > > compatible with my existing dictionaries. I trust you. I'd like to
          > > raise
          > > > > the issue of pluralization of nouns. I'm aware that your preference is
          > > > > for the normal plural method to be adding a -e to nouns. This is OK
          > > with
          > > > > me, although it's not the same as Frenkisch, where I use a -en suffix.
          > > > > I would suggest:
          > > > >
          > > > > 1. the normal method is adding -e to the noun stem for nouns that
          > > end in
          > > > > a stressed / non-schwa syllable. So "bok" (book) is made plural as
          > > > > "boke". "Sonn" (sun) is pluralized as "sonne" and "biljett" is
          > > > > pluralized as "biljette". And "karakterisacion" (characterization) is
          > > > > made plural as "karakterisacione".
          > > > >
          > > > > 2. We try to keep the number of nouns that end in -e in the
          > > singular to
          > > > > a minimum. This won't always be possible, but if there are dubious
          > > > > nouns, where it is unclear whether the majority of source languages
          > > end
          > > > > in a vowel or not, we should choose to end in no vowel. For
          > > example, the
          > > > > FS word for "berry" (bere) and "shadow" (shade) or breakdown (panne)
          > > > > should probably end in -e in the singular. In the case of *nekk, it's
          > > > > more controversial where it should be *nekk or *nekke. Let's go with
          > > > > *nekk to avoid as many singular nouns ending in -e as possible.
          > > > >
          > > > > 3. We have an alternative ending for nouns ending in a schwa vowel.
          > > This
          > > > > is to avoid awkward pronunciations and ambiguous spellings with
          > > several
          > > > > schwas in sequence. So nouns ending in unstressed schwa vowels use a
          > > > > different plural ending, ie "-s". That is typical endings such as
          > > "-er,
          > > > > "-en", "-el" and of course "-e" should form the plural with "-s: So
          > > > > "teken" (sign) is pluralized as "tekens", "shade" is pluralized as
          > > > > "shades" and "cirkel" (circle) is pluralized as "cirkels".
          > > > >
          > > > > So the rule that I propose is:
          > > > > If a noun ends in a stressed syllable or a non-schwa syllable, then
          > > the
          > > > > plural suffix should be "-e".
          > > > > If a noun ends in a schwa syllable, then the plural suffix should
          > > be -s.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Note that this is similar to, but NOT the same as Middelsprake. If I
          > > > > recall your Middelsprake rules correctly, all multi-syllable nouns
          > > used
          > > > > "-s" for the plural, regardless of whether the final syllable was
          > > > > stressed/non-schwa or not. So in Middelsprake, the plural of "station"
          > > > > was "stations". For my proposal for Folksprak, the plural of "stacion"
          > > > > would be "statione".
          > > > >
          > > > > This is also similar to the rules for Dutch, where most nouns
          > > ending in
          > > > > -er, -en, -el, use a -s ending, otherwise the normal ending is -en.
          > > > >
          > > > > One good way to teach or remember the proposed plural rule is:
          > > > > Pluralized nouns MUST end in an un-stressed and schwa-vowel syllable.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > This still leaves a tricky issue with "Latin" words that have the
          > > > > original Latin (or Greek) case ending in the singular. Typically,
          > > these
          > > > > are words ending in -us, -um, and -is. Words like *datum, *museum,
          > > > > *fokus, *konus, *basis, *tesis.
          > > > > My opinion is, when there is doubt, eliminate the endings. Often there
          > > > > are situations where some of the source languages retain the
          > > ending, and
          > > > > others have modernized/discarded the ending. Eg English has both
          > > "base"
          > > > > and "basis". Engllish has "thesis", Dutch as "these". In cases where
          > > > > there is lack of agreement, favour the noun form that drops these
          > > > > endings. After that, it's up to you how to pluralize the remaining
          > > > > words. In Frenkisch, I decided to create a new rule for pluralizing
          > > > > words ending in -us, -um or -is. In Folksprak, such a rule may not be
          > > > > desirable. But you still need some rules for where the stress falls on
          > > > > such words and the implications of how to pluralize them. Don't blame
          > > > > me, but all our source languages have such words and need to have
          > > rules
          > > > > or exceptions to rules on how to stress them and to pluralize them.
          > > > >
          > > > > On 21/12/2011 19:14, chamavian wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > But I'm still from the sweet sixties, you know (l'annee fameuse de
          > > > > > soixante-neuf)... Anyway, far out that you made our Wordbok "tiny",
          > > > > > now I'll have to wait till I'm alone and can print it.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Du is bar alder als ek! Nu is niht de tid to pensionaere di! Ek ha
          > > > > > > makede en nyw Wordbok for di. Dis is bloet 107 A4-bladen!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > On 20/12/2011 23:12, chamavian wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Ah, that would be great. For me as a 40 plus guy I prefer printed
          > > > > > > > papers that I can hold in my hands and go through over
          > > reading from
          > > > > > > > a PC screen
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, Hermann Philipps
          > > > > > > > <hphilipps@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The html file can be manipulated with a relatively small
          > > amount of
          > > > > > > > > work in a way to reduce it to about 100 A4 pages as I did
          > > recently
          > > > > > > > > with the English-Frenkisch and Frenkisch-English dictionaries.
          > > > > > > > > I have just uploaded the English-Frenkish one as a PDF file
          > > for your
          > > > > > > > > information. Unfortunately I don't know any more how I did
          > > it but I
          > > > > > > > > should be able to do the same for the Folksprak thing.
          > > > > > > > > I can provide that as HTML, PDF and Microsoft Word DOC.
          > > > > > > > > Give me a few days because currently I am too busy with
          > > other stuff.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hermann
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > David Parke schrieb:
          > > > > > > > > > I just made a PDF of the file. It came to 1922 A4s. That
          > > will
          > > > > > kill
          > > > > > > > a lot
          > > > > > > > > > of trees.
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > On 20/12/2011 18:32, chamavian wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >> Embarrassing: I tried to print the English to Folksprak
          > > Wordbook
          > > > > > > > at my
          > > > > > > > > >> office yesterday, but the file was so immense, the
          > > copies kept
          > > > > > > > coming.
          > > > > > > > > >> I didn't know how to stop it first, only after maybe a
          > > hundred
          > > > > > > > pages I
          > > > > > > > > >> found out how to cancel. And that was only half way the
          > > letter B
          > > > > > > > ! My
          > > > > > > > > >> colleagues were looking at me, wondering what I was
          > > doing ;-)
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > > > >> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
          > > > > > <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>> OK I'll do that
          > > > > > > > > >>>
          > > > > > > > > >>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@>
          > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>> Use the dictionaries in the "Wordboken" folder of the
          > > Yahoo
          > > > > > > > > >> Folkspraak group. The words in those dictionaries are
          > > > > > folksprakified
          > > > > > > > > >> -- eg "bok" instead of "bouk", "drive" instead of "dryve".
          > > > > > > > > >>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
          > > > > > <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>> OK, I shall write the FS grammar. I don't know when
          > > it will be
          > > > > > > > > >> ready but I promise. And I'll use the Frenkisch
          > > dictionaries etc
          > > > > > > > for that.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>> Ingmar
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke
          > > <parked@>
          > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Many of those "improvements" to my beloved Frenkisch are
          > > > > > > > > >> already a part
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> of the dictionary that I did for Folksprak earlier
          > > this year.
          > > > > > > > > >> It's
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> essentially the Frenkisch lexicon with a major
          > > simplification
          > > > > > > > > >> to the
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> phonology and spelling. The biggest difference is the
          > > > > > > > > >> phonology of
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Frenkisch is dominated by features common to German,
          > > English
          > > > > > > > > >> and Dutch.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> The Folksprak phonology has a vowel system more like
          > > > > > > > > >> Scandinavian and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Low German (original long vowels remain pure rather than
          > > > > > > > > >> evolving into
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> diphthongs).
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> See the document in the files section called
          > > "differences
          > > > > > > > > >> between FS and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> FK.pdf" for a summary of the major differences in
          > > > > > phonology and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> orthography.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I've also hosted the file here:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bx0T9Dxrods1ZjUyMzI3MzktM2ZlMy00Mzk1LWI3ODAtM2NjMzA4ODFkNmNm
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I think that right now, a more urgent need is for a
          > > grammar
          > > > > > > > > >> document to
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> tie with the dictionaries. I've noticed several
          > > requests,
          > > > > > from
          > > > > > > > > >> casually
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> interested people, for a grammar. Even with a good
          > > > > > dictionary, a
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> language is impossible to speak without a grammar. I
          > > assume
          > > > > > > > > >> those people
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> start out interested, can't find an easily accessible
          > > > > > grammar,
          > > > > > > > > >> get
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> disappointed and leave never to visit folksprak again,
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I think a priority should be getting an grammar document
          > > > > > > > > >> published. This
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> should build on and use the vocabulary in the
          > > dictionaries.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> It need such basics as:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Pronunciation and spelling guide
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Articles -- definite, indefinite
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Pronouns -- personal, demostrative and interrogative
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Nouns -- plural forming rules
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Adjectives -- comparatives, superlatives, adverbs,
          > > > > > irregulars (eg
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> god/better/best)
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Verbs -- infinitives, present, past, perfect. future,
          > > > > > auxiliaries
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Essential adverbs and prepositions
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Word order -- basic syntax, questions, clauses
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Rather than the grammar be another thing with my
          > > influence
          > > > > > > > > >> stamped all
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> over it, and adapted from Frenkisch, I really wish
          > > somebody
          > > > > > > > > >> else would
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> have go at writing this. Perhaps Ingmar could write the
          > > > > > > > > >> grammar --
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> preferably trying to keep it compatible as possible
          > > with my
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> dictionaries. I promise that if Ingmar writes a
          > > grammar, I
          > > > > > > > > >> will not
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> criticize or nit-pick it too much. So even if he
          > > wants to
          > > > > > change
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Frenkisch's "kunne" into a regular verb with the past
          > > > > > tense of
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> "kannede"(yuck), I'd accept that, just so we could
          > > see some
          > > > > > > > > >> progress..
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I'll even adapt the dictionaries to fit with it, if the
          > > > > > > > > >> grammar author
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> feels the need to change the form of pronouns etc.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> One other point I'd like to raise that would
          > > contribute a lot
          > > > > > > > > >> to the
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> development of Folksprak, is that some other people
          > > should
          > > > > > > > > >> research /
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> propose / contribute some words. The Frenkisch lexicon
          > > > > > has now
          > > > > > > > > >> passed
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> 6000 words which a quite respectable vocabulary
          > > size. But
          > > > > > it's
          > > > > > > > > >> still
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> not enough. Every time I try to write in Frenkisch or
          > > > > > > > > >> Folksprak, I
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> still find myself struggling to find word to express
          > > myself.
          > > > > > > > > >> Sometimes
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> for quite basic or essential concepts. And often I must
          > > > > > invent
          > > > > > > > > >> words
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> on-the-fly, as and when I need them. So come on,
          > > propose some
          > > > > > > > > >> new words
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> for the dictionary! And if you are writing something in
          > > > > > FS and
          > > > > > > > > >> "invent"
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> a new FSish word, don't just use it once in your
          > > prose and
          > > > > > > > > >> then forget
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> about it. Post on the Group the new words that
          > > you've created
          > > > > > > > > >> and what
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> they should mean and the justification for these words
          > > > > > (eg the
          > > > > > > > > >> source
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> language words that the new word is based on). Then
          > > I can
          > > > > > keep
          > > > > > > > > >> track of
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> these words and add them to future versions of the
          > > > > > dictionary.
          > > > > > > > > >> Some
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> people (ie conlangers) enjoy making up languages as
          > > they go
          > > > > > > > > >> along. But
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> most people just want the words and grammatical
          > > rules that
          > > > > > > > > >> they need
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> presented to them pre-digested.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On 14/12/2011 18:19, chamavian wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Thanks Andrew, I agree on most points, but I still
          > > think an
          > > > > > > > > >> AE sound
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> is necessary, and it's part of the already existing
          > > > > > > > > >> Frenkisch, which
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> imo we shouldn't want to change structurally now,
          > > if we'd
          > > > > > > > > >> choose it as
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the base for Folkspraek.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Btw what I meant with "give your opinions" was
          > > especially
          > > > > > > > > >> about that
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> proposal of mine: taking Frekish as the base for
          > > Folkspraak.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I'd like to hear more
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"
          > > > > > > > > >> <anjarrette@>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> I agree with Hermann that the apostrophe should be
          > > > > > > > > >> replaced with
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> 'e', and that <j> in words such as <berejt>,
          > > <naij>, etc.
          > > > > > > > > >> should be
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> replaced with <ch> pronounced /x/.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Personally I don't like having /E:/ without
          > > corresponding
          > > > > > > > > >> /O:/ (and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> also feel that if you already have /e:/, you don't
          > > need /E:/
          > > > > > > > > >> -- and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> also prefer to distinguish vowels more
          > > qualitatively than
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> quantitatively, it makes them easier to recognize
          > > and also
          > > > > > > > > >> easier to
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> distinguish when singing e.g.). I would get rid of
          > > <ai> or
          > > > > > > > > >> <ae> and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> replace it by <a>, a long /a:/ or /A:/. Or else
          > > make <ai> be
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> pronounced /aj/ rather than /E:/ (and <ei> could be
          > > /Ej/).
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Andrew
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
          > > > > > > > > >> <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Great. I wonder what other members think about this.
          > > > > > > > > >> Give your
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> opinions, please
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Hermann"
          > > > > > > > > >> <hphilipps@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I'm all for it. And I would favour frenkish.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The annoying apostophe could simply be replaced
          > > by an
          > > > > > > > > >> 'e' (and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> pronounced like a 'schwa' or dropped altogether
          > > such as in
          > > > > > > > > >> "eng'lish".
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The 'j' as in 'berejt' probably was an attempt
          > > to take
          > > > > > > > > >> the
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> English pronounciation into account, but it makes
          > > such words
          > > > > > > > > >> somewhat
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> more unrecognizable. Perhaps 'gh' would be good,
          > > but 'ch' is
          > > > > > > > > >> faster to
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> write. etc., etc.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Let's go ahead in this way, please.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hermann
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"
          > > > > > > > > >> <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, sent to early, I'll finish my message now:
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Listen up please guys. I hope you're enjoying the
          > > > > > > > > >> funny Dutch
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> movies I sent here the last few weeks, but...
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we haven't talked a lot (or at all) about
          > > Folkspraak
          > > > > > > > > >> anymore
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> lately.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't seem to be such an interesting subject
          > > > > > > > > >> anymore.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Only way to get a reaction from our once FS
          > > activist
          > > > > > > > > >> David
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Parke is posting something about pinguins, snails
          > > or singers
          > > > > > > > > >> from
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Kiwonia ;-)
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sad but true, but there still is no Folkspraak. Or
          > > > > > > > > >> maybe I
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> should say: there is not one Folkspraak, because of
          > > course
          > > > > > > > > >> we have
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> several varieties that are pretty well developped,
          > > such as
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Middelsprake and Frenkisch, especially the latter.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it's time that we should take a decision,
          > > make
          > > > > > > > > >> a choice,
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> instead of keeping discussing endlessly.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I for me say: let's take David Parke's Frenkisch as
          > > > > > > > > >> a base and
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> call it just Folkspraak. Then consequently make it
          > > not only
          > > > > > > > > >> Dave's
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> personal project anymore, but give others the right
          > > to bring
          > > > > > > > > >> up their
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> ideas and change some minor things, for instance in the
          > > > > > > > > >> orthography or
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> whatever.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Then we have the chance to make Folkspraak a common
          > > > > > > > > >> project
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> again, depending not only on two or three people
          > > with a big
          > > > > > > > > >> mouth.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Because we've seen so often that other members or
          > > > > > > > > >> newbies
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> quitting or getting back to silence after asking for
          > > > > > > > > >> guidelines or for
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> THE Folkspraak in vain. When we've got a solid base
          > > which
          > > > > > > > > >> people can
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> work on a little, Folkspraak has something to offer
          > > again.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/frenkisch/
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Below a sample text in Frenkisch from our own
          > > Hermann.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Personally I must say I'd like some spelling rules
          > > > > > > > > >> altered,
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> such as "ai" [E:] in "aivend", I think that could
          > > better be
          > > > > > > > > >> "aevend",
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> also we might consider whether "-j" (Dutch/German
          > > > > > > > > >> "-ch",
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> English "-gh") such as in "berejt", "hw-" as in
          > > "hwann"
          > > > > > and the
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> annoying apostrophe "-'-" as in brek'd or fliej'd.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> But these are details now, first I'd like to have
          > > > > > > > > >> your opinion,
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> should we take Frenkisch (f)or Folkspraak?
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ingmar
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Berejt aut Tudischland: Kou steut mid en moped
          > > > > > > > > >> tousamen
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "De niewntejnde af oktober, 2011. Forig
          > > > > > > > > >> mondagaivend hadd en
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> seventejnjairig
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> jonge en onbehaglik meuting mid en kou in de torp
          > > > > > > > > >> Much (naij
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bonn an de Ryn).
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ongefair om twentig-ein our tritig reid de jonge
          > > > > > > > > >> mid syn
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> moped (Vespa) fra
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hevinghausen tou Scheidhof, hwann plutslik en kou
          > > > > > > > > >> storm'd
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> aut de boschen op de
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> straite. De Vespa steuted wider de kou, ond de
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> seventejnjairige sturted en
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> brek'd en arm. De kou, fermoudlik reud-braun,
          > > > > > > > > >> fliej'd. Nejts
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> is kenn'd
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> betreffend de toustand af de dier."
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ick greut all,
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hermann
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4075 -
          > > Release
          > > > > > > > > >> Date: 12/11/11 19:34:00
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > > > > > > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > > > > > > > >> Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4084 -
          > > Release Date:
          > > > > > > > 12/16/11 07:34:00
          > > > > > > > > >>
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > > > > > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4091 - Release Date:
          > > > > > 12/19/11 19:34:00
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > > > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4091 - Release Date:
          > > 12/19/11 19:34:00
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
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