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Re: Elvish to Klingon - why do we love to invent languages?

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  • swartsaxon
    Oh and I almost forgot, since we re a group about languages -- Sprachgefühl is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it s a most useful word.
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 25, 2011
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      Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages -- 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a most useful word.

      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
      >
      > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
      > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
      > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen", "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner), "ordner",
      > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel", "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich", "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
      >
      > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
      >
      > Tschüß und grüß Gott
      > Ingmar
      >
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
      > >
      > > Andrew
      > >
      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
      > > >
      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so unusual after all.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • chamavian
      Volksprachgefühl would be even more useful, don t you agree ;-)
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 25, 2011
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        "Volksprachgefühl" would be even more useful, don't you agree ;-)

        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@...> wrote:
        >
        > Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages -- 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a most useful word.
        >
        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
        > >
        > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
        > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
        > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen", "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner), "ordner",
        > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel", "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich", "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
        > >
        > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
        > >
        > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
        > > Ingmar
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
        > > >
        > > > Andrew
        > > >
        > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so unusual after all.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • swartsaxon
        LOL, ja, wir wenden das die ganze Zeit in dieser Gruppe an.
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 25, 2011
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          LOL, ja, wir wenden das die ganze Zeit in dieser Gruppe an.

          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
          >
          > "Volksprachgefühl" would be even more useful, don't you agree ;-)
          >
          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages -- 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a most useful word.
          > >
          > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
          > > >
          > > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
          > > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
          > > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen", "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner), "ordner",
          > > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel", "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich", "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
          > > >
          > > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
          > > >
          > > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
          > > > Ingmar
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
          > > > >
          > > > > Andrew
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so unusual after all.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • David
          This is quite a poignant reminder of one of my biggest objections to Leicht-Deutsch -- it s the condescending and patronizing attitude. I have a great deal of
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 27, 2011
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            This is quite a poignant reminder of one of my biggest objections to Leicht-Deutsch -- it's the condescending and patronizing attitude. I have a great deal of respect for the German language and find it to have its own intrinsic beauty. I acknowledge that it can in parts be difficult to learn, I wish that I spoke it better -- but this is true of most languages. And most things that are worth doing, require some application of effort and commitment. It's patronizing in that it seems to assume that Ausländer are too lazy or stupid to learn to speak German correctly.

            A simplified German, such as this Kolonial-Deutsch is not going to prepare speakers for full and equal interaction with German-speaking culture. Surely one would want to learn German so one can consume/appreciate German media (literature, music, film, TV etc), do business with German-speaking organizations and live and work in German-speaking countries. Instead the speakers of Kolonial-Deutsch might give the impression of speaking German like a mentally-challenged child. Particularly if the vocabulary is restricted like the 500 number you described. It seems that Kolonial-Deutsch was preparing speakers only for the most menial roles in society.

            In short, German is difficult, but if you wish to fully interact or integrate with German-speaking societies/economies, then learning it properly is worth the effort.

            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Hermann Philipps <hphilipps@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ja, ganz recht! And soon I'll place the whole book "Kolonial-Deutsch"
            > as an easily readable transcribed version into the files section. The
            > simplified grammar is quite convincing, just the word list (500 words)
            > is somewhat meagre for 'hochstehende Europäer' although quite
            > sufficient for most 'Neger' as so convincingly expounded by the
            > retired captain and privy councillor Dr. jur. Emil Schwörer.
            >
            > That simplified German grammar plus the rich German vocabulary would
            > immediately open the beauty of the German language to all those who
            > hitherto desperately tried to come to grips with the intricacies of
            > German but had to fail miserably because of the quagmires of this
            > formidable language. Quite honestly, I would never even vaguely have
            > felt a desire to learn German, were I not accidentally born German and
            > learning this language without being aware of what was happening.
            >
            > Only now I'm getting aware of the possibility that German may have
            > some interesting aspects to it, after all.
            >
            > May I add a few nice words? -- Großmaul, Quatschkopf, Kotzbrocken,
            > Herzeleid, Weltschmerz, Gottesgabe, Untermensch, Ochsentour ... well,
            > once one has started ...
            >
            > Hermann
            >
            >
            >
            > chamavian schrieb:
            > >
            > >
            > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German
            > > loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
            > >
            > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
            > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
            > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen",
            > > "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner),
            > > "ordner",
            > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel",
            > > "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich",
            > > "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
            > >
            > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too,
            > > e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
            > >
            > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
            > > Ingmar
            > >
            > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words
            > > like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
            > > >
            > > > Andrew
            > > >
            > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of
            > > weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so
            > > unusual after all.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • chamavian
            Well, for me it is just Spielerei
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 28, 2011
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              Well, for me it is just 'Spielerei'

              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is quite a poignant reminder of one of my biggest objections to Leicht-Deutsch -- it's the condescending and patronizing attitude. I have a great deal of respect for the German language and find it to have its own intrinsic beauty. I acknowledge that it can in parts be difficult to learn, I wish that I spoke it better -- but this is true of most languages. And most things that are worth doing, require some application of effort and commitment. It's patronizing in that it seems to assume that Ausländer are too lazy or stupid to learn to speak German correctly.
              >
              > A simplified German, such as this Kolonial-Deutsch is not going to prepare speakers for full and equal interaction with German-speaking culture. Surely one would want to learn German so one can consume/appreciate German media (literature, music, film, TV etc), do business with German-speaking organizations and live and work in German-speaking countries. Instead the speakers of Kolonial-Deutsch might give the impression of speaking German like a mentally-challenged child. Particularly if the vocabulary is restricted like the 500 number you described. It seems that Kolonial-Deutsch was preparing speakers only for the most menial roles in society.
              >
              > In short, German is difficult, but if you wish to fully interact or integrate with German-speaking societies/economies, then learning it properly is worth the effort.
              >
              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Hermann Philipps <hphilipps@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Ja, ganz recht! And soon I'll place the whole book "Kolonial-Deutsch"
              > > as an easily readable transcribed version into the files section. The
              > > simplified grammar is quite convincing, just the word list (500 words)
              > > is somewhat meagre for 'hochstehende Europäer' although quite
              > > sufficient for most 'Neger' as so convincingly expounded by the
              > > retired captain and privy councillor Dr. jur. Emil Schwörer.
              > >
              > > That simplified German grammar plus the rich German vocabulary would
              > > immediately open the beauty of the German language to all those who
              > > hitherto desperately tried to come to grips with the intricacies of
              > > German but had to fail miserably because of the quagmires of this
              > > formidable language. Quite honestly, I would never even vaguely have
              > > felt a desire to learn German, were I not accidentally born German and
              > > learning this language without being aware of what was happening.
              > >
              > > Only now I'm getting aware of the possibility that German may have
              > > some interesting aspects to it, after all.
              > >
              > > May I add a few nice words? -- Großmaul, Quatschkopf, Kotzbrocken,
              > > Herzeleid, Weltschmerz, Gottesgabe, Untermensch, Ochsentour ... well,
              > > once one has started ...
              > >
              > > Hermann
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > chamavian schrieb:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German
              > > > loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
              > > >
              > > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
              > > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
              > > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen",
              > > > "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner),
              > > > "ordner",
              > > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel",
              > > > "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich",
              > > > "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
              > > >
              > > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too,
              > > > e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
              > > >
              > > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
              > > > Ingmar
              > > >
              > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > > "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words
              > > > like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
              > > > >
              > > > > Andrew
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of
              > > > weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so
              > > > unusual after all.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Hermann Philipps
              Hi David, Firstly: ... What you may perceive as condescension does not target at any lazyness or stupidity on the part of non-native speakers of German.
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 29, 2011
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                Hi David,

                Firstly:
                "
                >It's patronizing in that it seems to assume that Ausländer are too
                >lazy or stupid to learn to speak German correctly.
                "

                What you may perceive as condescension does not target at any lazyness
                or stupidity on the part of non-native speakers of German. It's just
                this incredible mess called the German language. We are surprised,
                amazed and astonished whenever a non-native speaks German fairly well.
                This does not happen often.

                With regard to Schwörer's Kolonial-Deutsch you are right.
                But don'take this too seriously. It's just a historical footnote.

                It might still be interesting to pursue a simplified German-like
                conlang along the lines of K. D. Visitors to Germany or Austria could
                surprise the natives with a fairly (although not quite) correct German
                when asking for the way, etc. It's another question if they would
                understand the natives' answers, though.

                Herzliche Grüße quer durch den Erdball,
                Hermann


                David schrieb:
                >
                >
                > This is quite a poignant reminder of one of my biggest objections to
                > Leicht-Deutsch -- it's the condescending and patronizing attitude. I
                > have a great deal of respect for the German language and find it to have
                > its own intrinsic beauty. I acknowledge that it can in parts be
                > difficult to learn, I wish that I spoke it better -- but this is true of
                > most languages. And most things that are worth doing, require some
                > application of effort and commitment. It's patronizing in that it seems
                > to assume that Ausländer are too lazy or stupid to learn to speak German
                > correctly.
                >
                > A simplified German, such as this Kolonial-Deutsch is not going to
                > prepare speakers for full and equal interaction with German-speaking
                > culture. Surely one would want to learn German so one can
                > consume/appreciate German media (literature, music, film, TV etc), do
                > business with German-speaking organizations and live and work in
                > German-speaking countries. Instead the speakers of Kolonial-Deutsch
                > might give the impression of speaking German like a mentally-challenged
                > child. Particularly if the vocabulary is restricted like the 500 number
                > you described. It seems that Kolonial-Deutsch was preparing speakers
                > only for the most menial roles in society.
                >
                > In short, German is difficult, but if you wish to fully interact or
                > integrate with German-speaking societies/economies, then learning it
                > properly is worth the effort.
                >
                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > Hermann Philipps <hphilipps@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Ja, ganz recht! And soon I'll place the whole book "Kolonial-Deutsch"
                > > as an easily readable transcribed version into the files section. The
                > > simplified grammar is quite convincing, just the word list (500 words)
                > > is somewhat meagre for 'hochstehende Europäer' although quite
                > > sufficient for most 'Neger' as so convincingly expounded by the
                > > retired captain and privy councillor Dr. jur. Emil Schwörer.
                > >
                > > That simplified German grammar plus the rich German vocabulary would
                > > immediately open the beauty of the German language to all those who
                > > hitherto desperately tried to come to grips with the intricacies of
                > > German but had to fail miserably because of the quagmires of this
                > > formidable language. Quite honestly, I would never even vaguely have
                > > felt a desire to learn German, were I not accidentally born German and
                > > learning this language without being aware of what was happening.
                > >
                > > Only now I'm getting aware of the possibility that German may have
                > > some interesting aspects to it, after all.
                > >
                > > May I add a few nice words? -- Großmaul, Quatschkopf, Kotzbrocken,
                > > Herzeleid, Weltschmerz, Gottesgabe, Untermensch, Ochsentour ... well,
                > > once one has started ...
                > >
                > > Hermann
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > chamavian schrieb:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German
                > > > loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
                > > >
                > > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
                > > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
                > > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen",
                > > > "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober"
                > (=kellner),
                > > > "ordner",
                > > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel",
                > > > "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich",
                > > > "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
                > > >
                > > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too,
                > > > e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
                > > >
                > > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
                > > > Ingmar
                > > >
                > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > > "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words
                > > > like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
                > > > >
                > > > > Andrew
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of
                > > > weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@>
                > wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so
                > > > unusual after all.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > >
                > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
              • nordslesviger
                ... I agree very much. I have been travelling and living in several countries where English was the second or third language. And I have often experienced that
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Hermann Philipps <hphilipps@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It might still be interesting to pursue a simplified German-like
                  > conlang along the lines of K. D.

                  I agree very much. I have been travelling and living in several countries where English was the second or third language. And I have often experienced that even with a very limited vocabulary and a simplified (wrong) grammar people actually can have a useful and meaningful communication.

                  I also think that literature written in Ogden's Basic English prove that a simplified natural language is a perfect tool for writing and communication.

                  Björn
                • adam.skoog
                  Because... English is completely incapable of forming a word using its own vocabulary, such as language feeling , I suppose?
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 6, 2011
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                    Because... English is completely incapable of forming a word using its own vocabulary, such as "language feeling", I suppose?

                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages -- 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a most useful word.
                    >
                    > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
                    > >
                    > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
                    > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
                    > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen", "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner), "ordner",
                    > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel", "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich", "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
                    > >
                    > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
                    > >
                    > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
                    > > Ingmar
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
                    > > >
                    > > > Andrew
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so unusual after all.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Hermann Philipps
                    Well, well ... English DOES in fact form millions of highly complex compound nouns from its own vocabulary. But in English, such expressions usually are not
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 6, 2011
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                      Well, well ...

                      English DOES in fact form millions of highly complex compound nouns
                      from its own vocabulary. But in English, such expressions usually are
                      not spelled as one word as in Dutch or German where this fact alone
                      prevents overdoing it with compound expressions.

                      English is far more flexible in such word formations because this
                      language can easily string together words of all categories. This
                      often drove me crazy when during my professional career I had to
                      translate compound expressions such as:

                      1) ... the "wide range input Switched Mode Power Supply Unit".
                      2)... the "super high performance ‘Linedancer‘ VASP4096 standalone
                      programmable DSP device" available early next year".
                      3) ... The "blue under-screen cleaner paper advance default setting"
                      has been changed to 20mm.
                      4) The "under screen cleaner paste ridge removal defect" fixed
                      5) ... which facilitates efficient "multi-vendor, multi-device,
                      single-chain in-system programming".
                      6) ... represents the first "full-chip, multi-million gate capacity
                      Register Transfer Level design verification design tool" that
                      accelerates ...
                      7) The Sea View Hotel is a "full service deluxe European style
                      completely renovated 220 guestroom beachfront hotel" ...

                      Or what do you think of this beauty:

                      8) MULTIVISION is an "all digital general purpose high resolution
                      cardiac, ob/gyn, radiology, vascular and small parts system" with
                      optional 3D and stress echo.

                      English really can and does produce the most horrible and
                      incomprehensible compound expressions imaginable. Without special
                      knowledge it often is not possible to figure out how the various parts
                      of such long compound expressions hang together.

                      For ordinary English compound nouns see:
                      http://www.learnenglish.de/basics/compoundwords.html







                      adam.skoog schrieb:
                      >
                      >
                      > Because... English is completely incapable of forming a word using its
                      > own vocabulary, such as "language feeling", I suppose?
                      >
                      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages --
                      > 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a
                      > most useful word.
                      > >
                      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German
                      > loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
                      > > >
                      > > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
                      > > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
                      > > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen",
                      > "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner),
                      > "ordner",
                      > > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel",
                      > "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich",
                      > "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
                      > > >
                      > > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages
                      > too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
                      > > >
                      > > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
                      > > > Ingmar
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German
                      > words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Andrew
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of
                      > weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon" <anjarrette@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so
                      > unusual after all.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • David Parke
                      Agreed in English, they are often strictly categorised as phrases rather than words. And En can make some quite elegant ones such as look and feel . That s
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 6, 2011
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                        Agreed in English, they are often strictly categorised as phrases rather
                        than words. And En can make some quite elegant ones such as "look and
                        feel". That's every bit as pithy as "Sprachgefuhl".

                        On 6/12/2011 22:37, Hermann Philipps wrote:
                        > Well, well ...
                        >
                        > English DOES in fact form millions of highly complex compound nouns
                        > from its own vocabulary. But in English, such expressions usually are
                        > not spelled as one word as in Dutch or German where this fact alone
                        > prevents overdoing it with compound expressions.
                        >
                        > English is far more flexible in such word formations because this
                        > language can easily string together words of all categories. This
                        > often drove me crazy when during my professional career I had to
                        > translate compound expressions such as:
                        >
                        > 1) ... the "wide range input Switched Mode Power Supply Unit".
                        > 2)... the "super high performance 'Linedancer' VASP4096 standalone
                        > programmable DSP device" available early next year".
                        > 3) ... The "blue under-screen cleaner paper advance default setting"
                        > has been changed to 20mm.
                        > 4) The "under screen cleaner paste ridge removal defect" fixed
                        > 5) ... which facilitates efficient "multi-vendor, multi-device,
                        > single-chain in-system programming".
                        > 6) ... represents the first "full-chip, multi-million gate capacity
                        > Register Transfer Level design verification design tool" that
                        > accelerates ...
                        > 7) The Sea View Hotel is a "full service deluxe European style
                        > completely renovated 220 guestroom beachfront hotel" ...
                        >
                        > Or what do you think of this beauty:
                        >
                        > 8) MULTIVISION is an "all digital general purpose high resolution
                        > cardiac, ob/gyn, radiology, vascular and small parts system" with
                        > optional 3D and stress echo.
                        >
                        > English really can and does produce the most horrible and
                        > incomprehensible compound expressions imaginable. Without special
                        > knowledge it often is not possible to figure out how the various parts
                        > of such long compound expressions hang together.
                        >
                        > For ordinary English compound nouns see:
                        > http://www.learnenglish.de/basics/compoundwords.html
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > adam.skoog schrieb:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Because... English is completely incapable of forming a word using its
                        >> own vocabulary, such as "language feeling", I suppose?
                        >>
                        >> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com<mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        >> "swartsaxon"<anjarrette@...> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages --
                        >> 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a
                        >> most useful word.
                        >> >
                        >> > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"<roerd096@> wrote:
                        >> > >
                        >> > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German
                        >> loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
                        >> > >
                        >> > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
                        >> > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
                        >> > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen",
                        >> "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner),
                        >> "ordner",
                        >> > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel",
                        >> "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich",
                        >> "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
                        >> > >
                        >> > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages
                        >> too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
                        >> > >
                        >> > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
                        >> > > Ingmar
                        >> > >
                        >> > >
                        >> > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"<anjarrette@> wrote:
                        >> > > >
                        >> > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German
                        >> words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
                        >> > > >
                        >> > > > Andrew
                        >> > > >
                        >> > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"<roerd096@> wrote:
                        >> > > > >
                        >> > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of
                        >> weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
                        >> > > > >
                        >> > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"<anjarrette@> wrote:
                        >> > > > > >
                        >> > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so
                        >> unusual after all.
                        >> > > > > >
                        >> > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"<roerd096@> wrote:
                        >> > > > > > >
                        >> > > > > > >
                        >> http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
                        >> > > > > > >
                        >> > > > > >
                        >> > > > >
                        >> > > >
                        >> > >
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4053 - Release Date: 12/02/11 19:41:00
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Hermann Philipps
                        That s right. In fact, it s nothing but envy on our part when we occasionally criticize the English language for its sloppyness. Here is what Jacob Grimm read
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 6, 2011
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                          That's right. In fact, it's nothing but envy on our part when we
                          occasionally criticize the English language for its sloppyness.

                          Here is what Jacob Grimm read coram the Prussian Academy of Sciences
                          in 1851:

                          "Was das gewicht und ergebnis dieser erörterungen angeht, so mag ich
                          mit einem einzigen aber entschiedenen beispiel ihrer beinahe enthoben
                          sein. Keine unter allen neueren sprachen hat gerade durch das aufgeben
                          und zerrütten alter lautgesetze, durch den Wegfall beinahe sämmtlicher
                          flexionen eine größere kraft und stärke empfangen als die englische
                          und von ihrer nicht einmal lehrbaren, nur lernbaren fülle freier
                          mitteltöne ist eine wesentliche gewalt des ausdrucks abhängig
                          geworden, wie sie vielleicht noch nie einer andern menschlichen zunge
                          zu gebote stand. Ihre ganze überaus geistige, wunderbar geglückte
                          anlage und durchbildung war hervorgegangen aus einer überraschenden
                          Vermählung der beiden edelsten sprachen des späteren Europas, der
                          germanischen und romanischen, und bekannt ist wie im englischen sich
                          beide zu einander verhalten, indem jene bei weitem die sinnliche
                          grundlage hergab, diese die geistigen begriffe zuführte. Ja die
                          englische sprache, von der nicht umsonst auch der größte und
                          überlegenste dichter der neuen zeit im gegensatze zur classischen
                          alten poesie, ich kann natürlich nur Shakespeare meinen, gezeugt und
                          getragen worden ist, sie darf mit vollem recht eine Weltsprache heißen
                          und scheint gleich dem englischen volk ausersehn künftig noch in
                          höherem maße an allen enden der erde zu walten. Denn an reichthum,
                          vernunft und gedrängter fuge lässt sich keine aller noch lebenden
                          sprachen ihr an die seite setzen, auch unsre deutsche nicht, die
                          zerrissen ist wie wir selbst zerrissen sind, und erst manche gebrechen
                          von sich abschütteln müßte ehe sie kühn mit in die laufbahn träte:
                          doch einige wohlthuende erinnerungen wird sie darbieten und wer möchte
                          ihr die hoffnung abschneiden? Die Schönheit menschlicher sprache
                          blühte nicht im anfang, sondern in ihrer mitte; ihre reichste frucht
                          wird sie erst einmal in der zukunft darreichen."




                          David Parke schrieb:
                          >
                          >
                          > Agreed in English, they are often strictly categorised as phrases rather
                          > than words. And En can make some quite elegant ones such as "look and
                          > feel". That's every bit as pithy as "Sprachgefuhl".
                          >
                          > On 6/12/2011 22:37, Hermann Philipps wrote:
                          > > Well, well ...
                          > >
                          > > English DOES in fact form millions of highly complex compound nouns
                          > > from its own vocabulary. But in English, such expressions usually are
                          > > not spelled as one word as in Dutch or German where this fact alone
                          > > prevents overdoing it with compound expressions.
                          > >
                          > > English is far more flexible in such word formations because this
                          > > language can easily string together words of all categories. This
                          > > often drove me crazy when during my professional career I had to
                          > > translate compound expressions such as:
                          > >
                          > > 1) ... the "wide range input Switched Mode Power Supply Unit".
                          > > 2)... the "super high performance 'Linedancer' VASP4096 standalone
                          > > programmable DSP device" available early next year".
                          > > 3) ... The "blue under-screen cleaner paper advance default setting"
                          > > has been changed to 20mm.
                          > > 4) The "under screen cleaner paste ridge removal defect" fixed
                          > > 5) ... which facilitates efficient "multi-vendor, multi-device,
                          > > single-chain in-system programming".
                          > > 6) ... represents the first "full-chip, multi-million gate capacity
                          > > Register Transfer Level design verification design tool" that
                          > > accelerates ...
                          > > 7) The Sea View Hotel is a "full service deluxe European style
                          > > completely renovated 220 guestroom beachfront hotel" ...
                          > >
                          > > Or what do you think of this beauty:
                          > >
                          > > 8) MULTIVISION is an "all digital general purpose high resolution
                          > > cardiac, ob/gyn, radiology, vascular and small parts system" with
                          > > optional 3D and stress echo.
                          > >
                          > > English really can and does produce the most horrible and
                          > > incomprehensible compound expressions imaginable. Without special
                          > > knowledge it often is not possible to figure out how the various parts
                          > > of such long compound expressions hang together.
                          > >
                          > > For ordinary English compound nouns see:
                          > > http://www.learnenglish.de/basics/compoundwords.html
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > adam.skoog schrieb:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Because... English is completely incapable of forming a word using its
                          > >> own vocabulary, such as "language feeling", I suppose?
                          > >>
                          > >> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > >> "swartsaxon"<anjarrette@...> wrote:
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Oh and I almost forgot, since we're a group about languages --
                          > >> 'Sprachgefühl' is much beloved of English-speaking linguists, it's a
                          > >> most useful word.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"<roerd096@> wrote:
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Ja, and do yo know "Fingerspitzengefühl", it is used as a German
                          > >> loanword in Dutch for a special kind of fine instinct or intuition.
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Other much used German loans in Dutch are for instance:
                          > >> > > "Aha erlebnis", "berufsverbot", "bühne", "einzelgänger", "heimweh",
                          > >> > > "hüttenkäse", "kellner", "kitsch", "krimi", "langlaufen",
                          > >> "leitmotiv","Mannschaft", "muesli", "Neanderthaler", "ober" (=kellner),
                          > >> "ordner",
                          > >> > > "pils"(pilsener), "poltergesist", "ramsch", "schmink", "schnabbel",
                          > >> "schnaps", "schnitzel", "über", "umlaut", "unheimisch/unheimlich",
                          > >> "weltschmerz", and last but not least "zum kotzen!"
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > I'm curious how many of these words are loans in other languages
                          > >> too, e.g. Swedish, Danish or even English.
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Tschüß und grüß Gott
                          > >> > > Ingmar
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"<anjarrette@> wrote:
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Love that word 'weltfremd'. It's one of those perfect German
                          > >> words like Schadenfreude and Übermensch.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Andrew
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"<roerd096@> wrote:
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > > Yeah, you'd almost think that we're normal guys instead of
                          > >> weltfremd lingo nerds ;-)
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "swartsaxon"<anjarrette@> wrote:
                          > >> > > > > >
                          > >> > > > > > Reading this makes me feel validated, that my hobby is not so
                          > >> unusual after all.
                          > >> > > > > >
                          > >> > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "chamavian"<roerd096@> wrote:
                          > >> > > > > > >
                          > >> > > > > > >
                          > >>
                          > http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/16/elvish-klingon-and-esperanto%E2%80%94why-do-we-love-to-invent-languages/
                          > >> > > > > > >
                          > >> > > > > >
                          > >> > > > >
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> >
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > > Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4053 - Release Date:
                          > 12/02/11 19:41:00
                          > >
                          >
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                          >
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