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Etymologi af Kerze/kaars

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  • David
    Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden? Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers. Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch cereus
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
      Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
      Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.

      Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" -- de ursprung af francisch "cierge".

      Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars, doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".

      Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).

      Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund werde Kerze oder kaars.
    • anjarrette
      Kluge: Mhd. , ahd. . Das Wort gehört offenbar zu ahd. Docht, Werg ; doch ist dessen Herkunft unklar. Zu der Annahme einer
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
        Kluge:

        "Mhd. <kerze>, ahd. <kerza>. Das Wort gehört offenbar zu ahd. <karz(a)> "Docht, Werg"; doch ist dessen Herkunft unklar. Zu der Annahme einer Entlehnung aus l. <charta> (s. unter <Karte>) vg. Rohlfs (s.u.): Es handelt sich eigentlich um spiralförmig gewickelte Streifen aus Birkenrinde, die vor dem Gebrauch in Öl getaucht wurden. [G. Rohlfs: Sprache und Kultur (Braunschweig 1928)]"

        My best translatation: The word belongs evidently to OHG <karz(a)> "wick, tow/oakum"; however the origin of the latter is unclear. As to the supposition of a loan from Latin <charta> (see under <Karte>) cf. Rohlfs (see below): The matter in question is actually spirally wound strips of birchbark that are dipped in oil before use.
        **********************************************************************

        Re <kaars>:

        "KERSE

        Woordsoort: znw(v.)

        Varianten: kerce, keerse, keirse, keerce, caerse, keers, caers, carce

        Modern lemma: kaars
        (kerce, keerse, keirse, keerce, caerse, keers, caers, carce), znw. vr. Mhd. hd. kerze; mnd. kerse, kars, karse; ohd. cherza, charza; ndl. kaars. Over den oorsprong van dit woord, dat mogelijk aan het Hd. is ontleend en niet aan het Lat., zie Franck 406 op kaars.

        +ᴁKaars. Lat. candela. Kil. keersse, candela.

        Sie rechten die tafele, kersen daer op, broot, scotelen ende enen cop, L. o. H. 1796.
        Kersen ende lampten … ontstaken, Sp. IV 1, 67, 36.
        Hare ogen lichten … alse ene kerse, die scinen heft claer, Rose 3069.
        Die kerse liecht bat in der nacht, die men vore draecht dan achter, N. Doct. 2301 (var. licht).
        Vor dat onser vrouwen dach leden sy, dat men kaersen draget, Merl. 13295, Vlaanderen, 1410-1430 (Vrouwendag of Maria Lichtmis; lat. dies Candelarum; fr. Chandeleur; zie Reinsb.-Duringsf. Kal. Belg. 1, 89; Duc.2 83).
        Die caersen te oliëne, Rek. d. Cam. 3, 65.
        Smeer smelten noch kaersen maken, Wfri. Stadr. 2, 24, 28. XVI
        ᨧ carcen, tpont van II gr., Rek. v. Middelb. 53; ook 54, Vlaanderen, 1364-1365.
        Van carssen te makene, Rek. v. Brugge v. 1302, 115, Vlaanderen, 1302-1303 (var. kersen).
        Een kerse, diemen uutblaest, Lsp. I, 17, 22.
        Gheen wollenwever en sel werken bi caersen, Keurb. v. Haarl. 85, Holland.
        (Als) men den dooden kersen set (zijn lijkdienst viert), Kerk. Cl. 207, Brabant, 1390-1405.
        Van een keerse van een pont was, Rek. d. Buurk. 122, Holland.
        Nyemant en sal meer keersen hebben daer een dode is, dan vier stalkeersen, elke keerse van sesse ponden groot, ende twe keersen opten dode, R. v. Utr. 1, 23, 44.
        So zouden alle de keersen tot deer kerken bliven, ald.
        Stalkeersen of ghedrayde keersen, ald.
        Die edele nacht … was van menigher kerce claer, Franc. 5648, Vlaanderen, 1301-1350.
        Dat die wint … ses kercen uteblies, 8241, Vlaanderen, 1301-1350.
        Al es dine keerce uutgegaen, 8470, Vlaanderen, 1301-1350.
        Een trop (bundel) kersen, die daer stoet, greep soe, Sp. IV 2, 24, 80 (lat. arreptis candelis).
        Dat si … met kersen bleven lesende, IV 5, vs. 66.
        Ene wassene kersse, II 6, 48, 21; vgl. 24.
        (Si) gaen dolen voor eenen sant met stocken ofte met kersen, Jan Yp. 171, Vlaanderen, 1401-1500.
        Van een groter kerse tonsen zoemer (lastpaard) bouf XXI sc. tornoyse (waarschijnlijk eene kaars (in een lantaarn?) om op reis te gebruiken), Invent. v. Br. 1, 294.
        Van eene grote kerse ende van andre kersen te Parijs, ald.
        Hi dede die kersen uut also houde, dat hem dat licht niet deren en soude, ende ginc slapen, Lanc. II, 14001, Vlaanderen, 1315-1330 (vgl. 13990: hi sach daer in een (nl. pawelgoen) kersen bernende claer).
        Hi vaert den duvelvolen waert mit sijnre kerse, met sinen brande, recht also Caynis (l. Cayms) offerande, N. Doct. 2470.
        Die (paus) sette te Pascheavonde te wijene den keyser (l. die kerse, IIde Part., bl. 518) ende te benedijene, Sp. III 8, 29, 87 (lat. benedictionem cerei).
        Int selve jaer voor onser Vrouwen dach; dat men kersen draget, Sp. IV 4, 50, 1 fragm. B. (Maria Lichtmis; lat. festum candelarum; fr. Chandeleur). Zie nog Bed. d. M. 327; 331; Natuurk. 637 (kersen; varr. keersen, kaersen); 670; 672; 690; enz.
        ᴁBij openbare verkoopingen werd eene kaars gebrand. De opbieder, op wiens bod de kaars uitging, bleef kooper als hoogst en laatst biedende (Stallaert 120b op de keerse bannen). Vgl. Van Dale 600: "onder den hoed verkoopen, oude wijze van verkoopen; zoolang een kaarsje onder een hoed brandde", en op kaars: "(oudt.) iets met het uitbranden van de kaars verkoopen, zóó verkoopen, dat hij die bij het uitgaan der kaars aan het bod was, kooper bleef; verkoopen met één, twee of drie kaarsbrandingen (-barningen), in dit geval werden er achtereenvolgens of met eene tusschenruimte van 8 of 14 dagen een, twee of drie kleine kaarsjes opgebrand." Vgl. Invent. v. Br. 6, 547: "Ten loyalen cope, by den bernenne van der kersse telkens recht meest daer omme biedende …, den XV en dach van November, daer deerste kersse was berrende, ende de tweeste kersse den XX en dach van der zelver maent," en: "inne ghestelt, verhoocht ende thenden byden kerssen uutganc ghebleven J. als leste verhoghere ende meest daer omme biedende," alsmede kersebarninge.
        Verpachten ende verhueren alle die stroomen ende wateren van visscheriën … ende soo voort van termynen tot termynen …, diemen tot elcken wtganck vander termynen inder kercken … sal doen veylen in eenre herberghen daer op te sitten met hoghen ende verdueren en (l. ende) met wtgaende bernende kerssen ende den hoochsten koopman dair aff ontfanghen, Oork. v. Helmond 210, Brabant, ?-1700.
        Ic zal den heere … die (beesten) moghen ghebieden te vercoopene up den eersten Zondach naer dat se ghevanghen worden by verhoghinghe metter keersse naer tkercghebot, Cout. v. Brugge 1, 249. Zie nog twee voorbeelden bij Stallaert 120.
        Aanm.
        Niet geheel zeker is de beteekenis van kerse (kersse), Gesch. v. Antw. 3, 541: "Aldus sal men gaen, yerst de kerssen vanden ambachten, alsoo gewoonlic es …; daer na sullen volgen de jouffrouwen uuter firmarien in Clapdorp." Waarschijnlijk is de bedoeling "de gilden, welke, kaarsen dragende, aan den omgang deel namen." De bet. gemeente, gezelschap, welke in de noot t. a. p. aan het woord wordt toegekend, is er te eenenmale vreemd aan."


        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
        >
        > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
        > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
        >
        > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" -- de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
        >
        > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars, doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
        >
        > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
        >
        > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund werde Kerze oder kaars.
        >
      • anjarrette
        KAARS Woordsoort: znw.(v.) Modern lemma: kaars — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse, caerse, mnd. kerse, karse, nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
          KAARS

          Woordsoort: znw.(v.)

          Modern lemma: kaars
          — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse, caerse, mnd. kerse, karse, nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en kertsche: verg. ohd. cherza, charza, mhd. nhd. kerze. Daarnaast gelijkbet. mnd. kerte (hierbij on. kerti, deensch kjerte), noordfriesch kerte, kärte. Hoe de verschillende vormen en vormengroepen tot elkander in betrekking staan, welke hun gemeenschappelijke (?) oorsprong is, en menig ander punt in de geschiedenis van dit woord, is nog in 't geheel niet zeker; men zie voor de verschillende gevoelens en gissingen de bekende etymol. en andere wdbb.; voor enkele gelijkbet. niet-Germ. woorden: KERN in Tijdschr. 18, 132 vlg.
          +1. Het bekende middel tot verlichting dat bestaat uit een ronde staaf van was, talk (roet, smeer, "vet"), stearine of eene andere derg. stof, met een lemmet of pit van vlas of katoen.

          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
          >
          > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
          > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
          >
          > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" -- de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
          >
          > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars, doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
          >
          > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
          >
          > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund werde Kerze oder kaars.
          >
        • David Parke
          Tanken Andrew! Dis etymolgis, warut komme dee? Is dar en website for Kluge? Wat is din nederlandisch reference? Is dar oek en website for dis? Ik ha nu
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
            Tanken Andrew!
            Dis etymolgis, warut komme dee? Is dar en website for Kluge? Wat is din
            nederlandisch reference? Is dar oek en website for dis?

            Ik ha nu andtekkd dis in Etymonline:

            taper (n.)
            O.E. tapur, taper "candle," not found outside Eng., possibly a
            dissimilated borrowing from L. papyrus (see papyrus), which was used in
            M.L. and some Romance languages for "wick of a candle" (e.g. It. papijo
            "wick"), since these often were made from the pith of papyrus. Cf. also
            Ger. kerze "candle," from O.H.G. charza, from L. charta, from Gk.
            khartes "papyrus, roll made from papyrus, wick made from pith of
            papyrus." The verb meaning "to shoot up like a flame or spire" is
            attested from 1589; sense of "gradually decrease in size, force, etc."
            first recorded 1610.

            So ut Latinisch charta, ursprung af Karte?

            This evokes the idea of the ancient Germanics being not just
            pre-literate, but actively disdainful of writing.
            Maps -- I use them for starting fire!
            What next, we'll discover that the German word for toilet paper is from
            the Latin word for book?

            anjarrette wrote:
            >
            > KAARS
            >
            > Woordsoort: znw.(v.)
            >
            > Modern lemma: kaars
            > — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse, caerse, mnd. kerse, karse,
            > nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en kertsche: verg. ohd. cherza,
            > charza, mhd. nhd. kerze. Daarnaast gelijkbet. mnd. kerte (hierbij on.
            > kerti, deensch kjerte), noordfriesch kerte, kärte. Hoe de
            > verschillende vormen en vormengroepen tot elkander in betrekking
            > staan, welke hun gemeenschappelijke (?) oorsprong is, en menig ander
            > punt in de geschiedenis van dit woord, is nog in 't geheel niet zeker;
            > men zie voor de verschillende gevoelens en gissingen de bekende
            > etymol. en andere wdbb.; voor enkele gelijkbet. niet-Germ. woorden:
            > KERN in Tijdschr. 18, 132 vlg.
            > +1. Het bekende middel tot verlichting dat bestaat uit een ronde staaf
            > van was, talk (roet, smeer, "vet"), stearine of eene andere derg.
            > stof, met een lemmet of pit van vlas of katoen.
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
            > > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
            > >
            > > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" --
            > de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
            > >
            > > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars,
            > doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
            > >
            > > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en
            > proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de
            > endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de
            > Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
            > >
            > > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund
            > werde Kerze oder kaars.
            > >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
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            >
            >
          • anjarrette
            Ik weet nik of er is en website for Kluge. Ik besitte sin Deutsches Etymologisches Wörterbuch , egenlik fotokopien fan de book in de bibliotek. (Ik schrive
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 10, 2010
              Ik weet nik of er is en website for Kluge. Ik besitte sin "Deutsches Etymologisches Wörterbuch", egenlik fotokopien fan de book in de bibliotek. (Ik schrive fermischd folkspraak-nederlands-ander Germanisch, ik is unseker over de grammatik, wordschat, en rechtspelling)

              Nederlandisch Etymologi: http://gtb.inl.nl/

              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tanken Andrew!
              > Dis etymolgis, warut komme dee? Is dar en website for Kluge? Wat is din
              > nederlandisch reference? Is dar oek en website for dis?
              >
              > Ik ha nu andtekkd dis in Etymonline:
              >
              > taper (n.)
              > O.E. tapur, taper "candle," not found outside Eng., possibly a
              > dissimilated borrowing from L. papyrus (see papyrus), which was used in
              > M.L. and some Romance languages for "wick of a candle" (e.g. It. papijo
              > "wick"), since these often were made from the pith of papyrus. Cf. also
              > Ger. kerze "candle," from O.H.G. charza, from L. charta, from Gk.
              > khartes "papyrus, roll made from papyrus, wick made from pith of
              > papyrus." The verb meaning "to shoot up like a flame or spire" is
              > attested from 1589; sense of "gradually decrease in size, force, etc."
              > first recorded 1610.
              >
              > So ut Latinisch charta, ursprung af Karte?
              >
              > This evokes the idea of the ancient Germanics being not just
              > pre-literate, but actively disdainful of writing.
              > Maps -- I use them for starting fire!
              > What next, we'll discover that the German word for toilet paper is from
              > the Latin word for book?
              >
              > anjarrette wrote:
              > >
              > > KAARS
              > >
              > > Woordsoort: znw.(v.)
              > >
              > > Modern lemma: kaars
              > > — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse, caerse, mnd. kerse, karse,
              > > nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en kertsche: verg. ohd. cherza,
              > > charza, mhd. nhd. kerze. Daarnaast gelijkbet. mnd. kerte (hierbij on.
              > > kerti, deensch kjerte), noordfriesch kerte, kärte. Hoe de
              > > verschillende vormen en vormengroepen tot elkander in betrekking
              > > staan, welke hun gemeenschappelijke (?) oorsprong is, en menig ander
              > > punt in de geschiedenis van dit woord, is nog in 't geheel niet zeker;
              > > men zie voor de verschillende gevoelens en gissingen de bekende
              > > etymol. en andere wdbb.; voor enkele gelijkbet. niet-Germ. woorden:
              > > KERN in Tijdschr. 18, 132 vlg.
              > > +1. Het bekende middel tot verlichting dat bestaat uit een ronde staaf
              > > van was, talk (roet, smeer, "vet"), stearine of eene andere derg.
              > > stof, met een lemmet of pit van vlas of katoen.
              > >
              > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
              > > > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
              > > >
              > > > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" --
              > > de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
              > > >
              > > > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars,
              > > doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
              > > >
              > > > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en
              > > proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de
              > > endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de
              > > Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
              > > >
              > > > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund
              > > werde Kerze oder kaars.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00
              > >
              > >
              >
            • anjarrette
              ... Nice joke, but I think a little unfair since the etymology above clearly states that Greek sometimes had the meaning wick made from pith of
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 10, 2010
                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tanken Andrew!
                > Dis etymolgis, warut komme dee? Is dar en website for Kluge? Wat is din
                > nederlandisch reference? Is dar oek en website for dis?
                >
                > Ik ha nu andtekkd dis in Etymonline:
                >
                > taper (n.)
                > O.E. tapur, taper "candle," not found outside Eng., possibly a
                > dissimilated borrowing from L. papyrus (see papyrus), which was used in
                > M.L. and some Romance languages for "wick of a candle" (e.g. It. papijo
                > "wick"), since these often were made from the pith of papyrus. Cf. also
                > Ger. kerze "candle," from O.H.G. charza, from L. charta, from Gk.
                > khartes "papyrus, roll made from papyrus, wick made from pith of
                > papyrus." The verb meaning "to shoot up like a flame or spire" is
                > attested from 1589; sense of "gradually decrease in size, force, etc."
                > first recorded 1610.
                >
                > So ut Latinisch charta, ursprung af Karte?
                >
                > This evokes the idea of the ancient Germanics being not just
                > pre-literate, but actively disdainful of writing.
                > Maps -- I use them for starting fire!
                > What next, we'll discover that the German word for toilet paper is from
                > the Latin word for book?

                Nice joke, but I think a little unfair since the etymology above clearly states that Greek <khartes> sometimes had the meaning "wick made from pith of papyrus", and it is obviously this meaning that had to have been borrowed into OHG (if indeed <karza> is from Latin or Greek, which Kluge says is not clear). Note as I said before that OHG <karza> meant "wick" or "tow/oakum", beside <kerza> "candle". Also as Kluge states, the early German candles were made of spirally wound birchbark strips, so the meaning "roll of papyrus" might also have led to the OHG meaning.

                I'm not so sure they were truly actively disdainful of writing. They did have the runic alphabet after all. I think it was just a case of writing coming later to the Germanics than to the Greeks and Latins. I don't really see where you get the idea of maps being used to start fire. As I have said, it is not the "map" meaning of charta/khartes that was borrowed (if it was borrowed). And the English meaning "to shoot up like a flame or spire" clearly is a secondary development arising from the observed motion of candle-flames. <taper>'s earliest meanings are always "candle", with no verb, and the 1589 verb obviously arose from observation of candle-flames. There is no implied use of maps to start fires here. But maybe you're just being sarcastic (unjustifiably in my opinion) or trying to find humor in the uncertainty of this etymology, I don't know, but I hope to correct what appears to be a slightly contemptuous attitude you have towards the early Germanic languages and peoples. I really don't think there is any justification for this attitude -- not that it bothers me that much (or that I think ill of you), everyone is entitled to an opinion.




                >
                > anjarrette wrote:
                > >
                > > KAARS
                > >
                > > Woordsoort: znw.(v.)
                > >
                > > Modern lemma: kaars
                > > — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse, caerse, mnd. kerse, karse,
                > > nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en kertsche: verg. ohd. cherza,
                > > charza, mhd. nhd. kerze. Daarnaast gelijkbet. mnd. kerte (hierbij on.
                > > kerti, deensch kjerte), noordfriesch kerte, kärte. Hoe de
                > > verschillende vormen en vormengroepen tot elkander in betrekking
                > > staan, welke hun gemeenschappelijke (?) oorsprong is, en menig ander
                > > punt in de geschiedenis van dit woord, is nog in 't geheel niet zeker;
                > > men zie voor de verschillende gevoelens en gissingen de bekende
                > > etymol. en andere wdbb.; voor enkele gelijkbet. niet-Germ. woorden:
                > > KERN in Tijdschr. 18, 132 vlg.
                > > +1. Het bekende middel tot verlichting dat bestaat uit een ronde staaf
                > > van was, talk (roet, smeer, "vet"), stearine of eene andere derg.
                > > stof, met een lemmet of pit van vlas of katoen.
                > >
                > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
                > > > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
                > > >
                > > > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" --
                > > de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
                > > >
                > > > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars,
                > > doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
                > > >
                > > > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en
                > > proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de
                > > endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de
                > > Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
                > > >
                > > > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund
                > > werde Kerze oder kaars.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > > Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00
                > >
                > >
                >
              • David Parke
                It is of course a joke. It reminds me of a character in a Terry Pratchett book called Cohan the Barbarian. He was very fond of a good book. Especially if the
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 10, 2010
                  It is of course a joke. It reminds me of a character in a Terry
                  Pratchett book called Cohan the Barbarian.
                  He was very fond of a good book. Especially if the pages dry and
                  flammable or soft and absorbant...



                  anjarrette wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tanken Andrew!
                  > > Dis etymolgis, warut komme dee? Is dar en website for Kluge? Wat is din
                  > > nederlandisch reference? Is dar oek en website for dis?
                  > >
                  > > Ik ha nu andtekkd dis in Etymonline:
                  > >
                  > > taper (n.)
                  > > O.E. tapur, taper "candle," not found outside Eng., possibly a
                  > > dissimilated borrowing from L. papyrus (see papyrus), which was used in
                  > > M.L. and some Romance languages for "wick of a candle" (e.g. It. papijo
                  > > "wick"), since these often were made from the pith of papyrus. Cf. also
                  > > Ger. kerze "candle," from O.H.G. charza, from L. charta, from Gk.
                  > > khartes "papyrus, roll made from papyrus, wick made from pith of
                  > > papyrus." The verb meaning "to shoot up like a flame or spire" is
                  > > attested from 1589; sense of "gradually decrease in size, force, etc."
                  > > first recorded 1610.
                  > >
                  > > So ut Latinisch charta, ursprung af Karte?
                  > >
                  > > This evokes the idea of the ancient Germanics being not just
                  > > pre-literate, but actively disdainful of writing.
                  > > Maps -- I use them for starting fire!
                  > > What next, we'll discover that the German word for toilet paper is from
                  > > the Latin word for book?
                  >
                  > Nice joke, but I think a little unfair since the etymology above
                  > clearly states that Greek <khartes> sometimes had the meaning "wick
                  > made from pith of papyrus", and it is obviously this meaning that had
                  > to have been borrowed into OHG (if indeed <karza> is from Latin or
                  > Greek, which Kluge says is not clear). Note as I said before that OHG
                  > <karza> meant "wick" or "tow/oakum", beside <kerza> "candle". Also as
                  > Kluge states, the early German candles were made of spirally wound
                  > birchbark strips, so the meaning "roll of papyrus" might also have led
                  > to the OHG meaning.
                  >
                  > I'm not so sure they were truly actively disdainful of writing. They
                  > did have the runic alphabet after all. I think it was just a case of
                  > writing coming later to the Germanics than to the Greeks and Latins. I
                  > don't really see where you get the idea of maps being used to start
                  > fire. As I have said, it is not the "map" meaning of charta/khartes
                  > that was borrowed (if it was borrowed). And the English meaning "to
                  > shoot up like a flame or spire" clearly is a secondary development
                  > arising from the observed motion of candle-flames. <taper>'s earliest
                  > meanings are always "candle", with no verb, and the 1589 verb
                  > obviously arose from observation of candle-flames. There is no implied
                  > use of maps to start fires here. But maybe you're just being sarcastic
                  > (unjustifiably in my opinion) or trying to find humor in the
                  > uncertainty of this etymology, I don't know, but I hope to correct
                  > what appears to be a slightly contemptuous attitude you have towards
                  > the early Germanic languages and peoples. I really don't think there
                  > is any justification for this attitude -- not that it bothers me that
                  > much (or that I think ill of you), everyone is entitled to an opinion.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > anjarrette wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > KAARS
                  > > >
                  > > > Woordsoort: znw.(v.)
                  > > >
                  > > > Modern lemma: kaars
                  > > > — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse, caerse, mnd. kerse, karse,
                  > > > nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en kertsche: verg. ohd. cherza,
                  > > > charza, mhd. nhd. kerze. Daarnaast gelijkbet. mnd. kerte (hierbij on.
                  > > > kerti, deensch kjerte), noordfriesch kerte, kärte. Hoe de
                  > > > verschillende vormen en vormengroepen tot elkander in betrekking
                  > > > staan, welke hun gemeenschappelijke (?) oorsprong is, en menig ander
                  > > > punt in de geschiedenis van dit woord, is nog in 't geheel niet
                  > zeker;
                  > > > men zie voor de verschillende gevoelens en gissingen de bekende
                  > > > etymol. en andere wdbb.; voor enkele gelijkbet. niet-Germ. woorden:
                  > > > KERN in Tijdschr. 18, 132 vlg.
                  > > > +1. Het bekende middel tot verlichting dat bestaat uit een ronde
                  > staaf
                  > > > van was, talk (roet, smeer, "vet"), stearine of eene andere derg.
                  > > > stof, met een lemmet of pit van vlas of katoen.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
                  > > > > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch
                  > "cereus" --
                  > > > de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars,
                  > > > doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en
                  > > > proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de
                  > > > endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de
                  > > > Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund
                  > > > werde Kerze oder kaars.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > > Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date:
                  > 03/08/10 19:33:00
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                  >
                  >
                • Andrew Jarrette
                  Oh, OK then. I thought it was another sarcastic piece like your earlier mocking of the Germanic peoples (in which you opined that they don t seem to have a
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 11, 2010
                    Oh, OK then. I thought it was another sarcastic piece like your earlier mocking of the Germanic peoples (in which you opined that they don't seem to have a word for "secure/safe/sure"). I may be a little oversensitive about 'Germanicdom'.

                    --- On Thu, 3/11/10, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:

                    > From: David Parke <parked@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: Etymologi af Kerze/kaars
                    > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    > Received: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 1:12 AM
                    > It is of course a joke. It reminds me
                    > of a character in a Terry
                    > Pratchett book called Cohan the Barbarian.
                    > He was very fond of a good book. Especially if the pages
                    > dry and
                    > flammable or soft and absorbant...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > anjarrette wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David
                    > Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Tanken Andrew!
                    > > > Dis etymolgis, warut komme dee? Is dar en website
                    > for Kluge? Wat is din
                    > > > nederlandisch reference? Is dar oek en website
                    > for dis?
                    > > >
                    > > > Ik ha nu andtekkd dis in Etymonline:
                    > > >
                    > > > taper (n.)
                    > > > O.E. tapur, taper "candle," not found outside
                    > Eng., possibly a
                    > > > dissimilated borrowing from L. papyrus (see
                    > papyrus), which was used in
                    > > > M.L. and some Romance languages for "wick of a
                    > candle" (e.g. It. papijo
                    > > > "wick"), since these often were made from the
                    > pith of papyrus. Cf. also
                    > > > Ger. kerze "candle," from O.H.G. charza, from L.
                    > charta, from Gk.
                    > > > khartes "papyrus, roll made from papyrus, wick
                    > made from pith of
                    > > > papyrus." The verb meaning "to shoot up like a
                    > flame or spire" is
                    > > > attested from 1589; sense of "gradually decrease
                    > in size, force, etc."
                    > > > first recorded 1610.
                    > > >
                    > > > So ut Latinisch charta, ursprung af Karte?
                    > > >
                    > > > This evokes the idea of the ancient Germanics
                    > being not just
                    > > > pre-literate, but actively disdainful of
                    > writing.
                    > > > Maps -- I use them for starting fire!
                    > > > What next, we'll discover that the German word
                    > for toilet paper is from
                    > > > the Latin word for book?
                    > >
                    > > Nice joke, but I think a little unfair since the
                    > etymology above
                    > > clearly states that Greek <khartes> sometimes
                    > had the meaning "wick
                    > > made from pith of papyrus", and it is obviously this
                    > meaning that had
                    > > to have been borrowed into OHG (if indeed
                    > <karza> is from Latin or
                    > > Greek, which Kluge says is not clear). Note as I said
                    > before that OHG
                    > > <karza> meant "wick" or "tow/oakum", beside
                    > <kerza> "candle". Also as
                    > > Kluge states, the early German candles were made of
                    > spirally wound
                    > > birchbark strips, so the meaning "roll of papyrus"
                    > might also have led
                    > > to the OHG meaning.
                    > >
                    > > I'm not so sure they were truly actively disdainful of
                    > writing. They
                    > > did have the runic alphabet after all. I think it was
                    > just a case of
                    > > writing coming later to the Germanics than to the
                    > Greeks and Latins. I
                    > > don't really see where you get the idea of maps being
                    > used to start
                    > > fire. As I have said, it is not the "map" meaning of
                    > charta/khartes
                    > > that was borrowed (if it was borrowed). And the
                    > English meaning "to
                    > > shoot up like a flame or spire" clearly is a secondary
                    > development
                    > > arising from the observed motion of candle-flames.
                    > <taper>'s earliest
                    > > meanings are always "candle", with no verb, and the
                    > 1589 verb
                    > > obviously arose from observation of candle-flames.
                    > There is no implied
                    > > use of maps to start fires here. But maybe you're just
                    > being sarcastic
                    > > (unjustifiably in my opinion) or trying to find humor
                    > in the
                    > > uncertainty of this etymology, I don't know, but I
                    > hope to correct
                    > > what appears to be a slightly contemptuous attitude
                    > you have towards
                    > > the early Germanic languages and peoples. I really
                    > don't think there
                    > > is any justification for this attitude -- not that it
                    > bothers me that
                    > > much (or that I think ill of you), everyone is
                    > entitled to an opinion.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > anjarrette wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > KAARS
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Woordsoort: znw.(v.)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Modern lemma: kaars
                    > > > > — KEERS —, znw. vr. Mnl. kerse, keerse,
                    > caerse, mnd. kerse, karse,
                    > > > > nnd. kers, kars, maar ook kartse en
                    > kertsche: verg. ohd. cherza,
                    > > > > charza, mhd. nhd. kerze. Daarnaast
                    > gelijkbet. mnd. kerte (hierbij on.
                    > > > > kerti, deensch kjerte), noordfriesch kerte,
                    > kärte. Hoe de
                    > > > > verschillende vormen en vormengroepen tot
                    > elkander in betrekking
                    > > > > staan, welke hun gemeenschappelijke (?)
                    > oorsprong is, en menig ander
                    > > > > punt in de geschiedenis van dit woord, is
                    > nog in 't geheel niet
                    > > zeker;
                    > > > > men zie voor de verschillende gevoelens en
                    > gissingen de bekende
                    > > > > etymol. en andere wdbb.; voor enkele
                    > gelijkbet. niet-Germ. woorden:
                    > > > > KERN in Tijdschr. 18, 132 vlg.
                    > > > > +1. Het bekende middel tot verlichting dat
                    > bestaat uit een ronde
                    > > staaf
                    > > > > van was, talk (roet, smeer, "vet"), stearine
                    > of eene andere derg.
                    > > > > stof, met een lemmet of pit van vlas of
                    > katoen.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > "David" <parked@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis
                    > worden?
                    > > > > > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears,
                    > Afrikaans kers.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden
                    > komme ut latinisch
                    > > "cereus" --
                    > > > > de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is
                    > moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars,
                    > > > > doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut
                    > "cereus".
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis
                    > worden komme ut moegliker en
                    > > > > proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert-
                    > oder *karti-. Dann is de
                    > > > > endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden
                    > de resultat af de
                    > > > > Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to
                    > ald hoech tydisch z).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening
                    > ut latinisch cereus kund
                    > > > > werde Kerze oder kaars.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > > > > Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database:
                    > 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date:
                    > > 03/08/10 19:33:00
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > > Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 -
                    > Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                    > >
                    > >   
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >     folkspraak-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • adam.skoog
                    Icelandic also has a cognate to Danish kærte/kerte; kerti. It has the same meaning.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 6 2:00 PM
                      Icelandic also has a cognate to Danish kærte/kerte; kerti. It has the same meaning.

                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Witte Enigen her de etymologi af dis worden?
                      > Oek Platt kars, Frisisch kears, Afrikaans kers.
                      >
                      > Min fyrst fermoding is dat dis worden komme ut latinisch "cereus" -- de ursprung af francisch "cierge".
                      >
                      > Doch Danisch ha oek "kerte", dis is moeglik kognat mid Kerze/kaars, doch "kerte" sej ut nejt so moeglik ut "cereus".
                      >
                      > Infall is DA kerte kognat, dann dis worden komme ut moegliker en proto-germanisch ursprung, magschej *kert- oder *karti-. Dann is de endlik konsonant in de Tydisch ond NL worden de resultat af de Hoech-Tydisch konsonant ferandring (PG *t to ald hoech tydisch z).
                      >
                      > Doch ik fermod dat en ald genog lening ut latinisch cereus kund werde Kerze oder kaars.
                      >
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