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Re: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?

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  • David Parke
    Yiddish isn t the only dialect of German that uses [S] for the ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of German rather than a
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 15, 2010
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      Yiddish isn't the only "dialect" of German that uses [S] for the
      ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of
      German rather than a distinct language). And a typical English speaker
      normally would hear the standard ich-laut as [S]. If you're not trained
      in German, you don't have the attunement to hear the distinction.
      But you're probably right. In English "fresh" can mean having chutzpah.
      So it sound's like the kind of vocabulary related to human relationships
      that's likely to be borrowed from Yiddish.

      It's not possible to say that EN fresh is borrowed from German/Yiddish
      frech without qualifying that statement.. Obviously English already had
      "fresh" BEFORE the linguistic contact that occured with German
      /Austrian/Swiss/Ashkenazic immigrants. But in the period of contact in
      19th century America, EN fresh acquired the meaning of DE/Yiddish frech.
      It didn't loose it's original meaning, it just added much of the meaning
      of "frech" to the mix. The dialect of the Americans most likely didn't
      include "freck". This word is archaic in English and restricted now to
      only certain dialects. An English-speaker who is aware of "freck" would
      be (I'd speculate), less likely to equate DE frech with fresh and more
      likely to equate it with freck.

      The meaning of *FREKK that I have added is "FREKK a. = fresh, bold,
      impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy, saucy"
      That's the meanings shared by EN fresh, DE frech and Scandy
      fræk/frekk/fräck. Note, it's SHARED meanings, not ALL meanings.
      It doesn't seem to have quite as an extremely obscene meaning as the
      Scandy word.


      chamavian wrote:
      >
      > My guess would be that American fresh would not come directly from
      > German "frech", but from a Yiddish pronunciation "fresh" of the same
      > word. Like in Yiddish "ish" vs German "ich", the ich-laut [C] of
      > German became sh [S] in Yiddish.
      > And it's just the kind of word that American English would borrow from
      > Yiddish.
      > But I don't know if that's true in this case, it's just my own theory
      >
      > Ingmar
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > And I now see that German frech is not related to frisch etc. It's
      > > related to obvious cognates such as DA fræk, NO frekk, SV fräck. It's
      > > also related to NL vrek (noun meaning a miser) and EN dialect freck.
      > > Probably also EN freak. And there's a probable reason that EN fresh
      > > shares some meaning with DE frech and that is that DE frech was
      > probably
      > > borrowed into American English. Or if not exactly borrowed, some of the
      > > meaning of DE frech rubbed off onto EN fresh.
      > >
      > > So I have now added a new word to my vocab
      > > FREKK
      > > a. = fresh, bold, impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy,
      > saucy
      > > cf EN fresh, freak, freck, NL vrek, DE frech, DA fræk, NO frekk, SV
      > fräck.
      > > f. PG ??
      > >
      > > David wrote:
      > > >
      > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
      > > >
      > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
      > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
      > > >
      > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
      > > >
      > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
      > > > for the vowel.
      > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that consonants
      > > > go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
      > > >
      > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
      > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
      > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
      > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
      > > > EN just has fresh.
      > > >
      > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
      > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
      > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
      > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would
      > all
      > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
      > > >
      > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
      > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
      > > > (related by way of PIE)
      > > >
      > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
      > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a huge
      > > > can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning between
      > > > *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
      > link to
      > > > which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like ENglish
      > > > or German and only have a single word.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date:
      > 01/14/10 19:35:00
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
      >
      >
    • David Parke
      The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot contact and influence by
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 15, 2010
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        The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from
        Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot
        contact and influence by French, the words in those languages were
        influenced by the French words. Eg Old English already had "fersc". The
        Norman's arrive and bring old French "freis" with them which has enough
        of the same meaning to be obviously the same word. It doesn't simply
        replace OE fersc, but it does influence it's form and meaning. It's not
        the only time this happened. Norman French had many Germanic borrowings.
        Some of these Germanic words replaced or influenced the native English
        cognate.
        Possibly something similar happened in Dutch. Or my theory is that vers
        is the older Dutch word. In a later period, Dutch also borrowed German
        frisch, which was adapted in form to *fris. It had a subtly different
        meaning or context, which was the motivation for acquiring it.


        "vers = fresh (nothing more nothing less)". That's kind of
        linguistically naive.There is almost always more than one word for any
        particular concept. And any one word almost alway has more than one
        meaning/concept attached to it.
        "fresh" means a whole lot of things! "vers" means a whole lot of things!

        Dutch fris would often be translated to EN fresh, as would NL vers. The
        meanings of those two Dutch words seem to all fall within the range of
        meanings of EN fresh.

        If you are going to have 2 separate words (Like Dutch or Scandy), and
        have *frisch and *fersch/fresch, you have the problem of deciding which
        meanings go with which words. You can't just simply say NL vers is the
        exact equivalent to SV färsk and NL fris to SV frisk.
        And I don't think that it's definitely possible to say that
        "SV färsk = NL vers
        and SV frisk = NL fris
        but SV färsk ≠ NL fris".

        I don't think that would be a totally accurate statement.

        So if you had 2 separate words, which meaning/context to associate with
        which word would be entirely a matter of opinion and native language
        habbits. A Dutch speaker might be using *fersch where a Danish speaker
        might assume to use *frisch. And a German or English or French speaker
        would flip-flop at random between *frisch and *fersch. Or use one to the
        total exclusion of the other.

        My opinion is that e-versions of these cognates are slightly more
        prevalent. There are e-versions in EN fresh, NL vers, Scandy fersk.
        There are i-versions in NL fris, DE frisch, and Scandy frisk. But as a
        tie-breaker, there is Romance frais/fresco and Russian presnyj
        If we must have one word, I think with an e vowel is preferable.

        Andrew Jarrette wrote:
        >
        >
        > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
        > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
        > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
        > "frisch" (for both meanings).
        >
        > >Stephan
        >
        > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
        > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
        > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
        > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
        > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
        > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
        > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
        > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
        > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
        > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
        > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
        > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development)).
        > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
        > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
        > cool" in English (at least where I live).
        >
        > Andrew
        >
        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
        > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
        >
        > >
        >
        > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
        > for the vowel.
        >
        > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
        > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
        >
        > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
        >
        > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
        >
        > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
        >
        > > EN just has fresh.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
        > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
        > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
        > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
        > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
        > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
        > (related by way of PIE)
        >
        > >
        >
        > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
        >
        > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
        > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
        > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
        > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
        > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
        >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
        >
        >
      • chamavian
        For the meanings of the Dutch word fris , click below: http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=fris
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 16, 2010
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          For the meanings of the Dutch word "fris", click below:

          http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=fris

          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
          >
          > The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from
          > Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot
          > contact and influence by French, the words in those languages were
          > influenced by the French words. Eg Old English already had "fersc". The
          > Norman's arrive and bring old French "freis" with them which has enough
          > of the same meaning to be obviously the same word. It doesn't simply
          > replace OE fersc, but it does influence it's form and meaning. It's not
          > the only time this happened. Norman French had many Germanic borrowings.
          > Some of these Germanic words replaced or influenced the native English
          > cognate.
          > Possibly something similar happened in Dutch. Or my theory is that vers
          > is the older Dutch word. In a later period, Dutch also borrowed German
          > frisch, which was adapted in form to *fris. It had a subtly different
          > meaning or context, which was the motivation for acquiring it.
          >
          >
          > "vers = fresh (nothing more nothing less)". That's kind of
          > linguistically naive.There is almost always more than one word for any
          > particular concept. And any one word almost alway has more than one
          > meaning/concept attached to it.
          > "fresh" means a whole lot of things! "vers" means a whole lot of things!
          >
          > Dutch fris would often be translated to EN fresh, as would NL vers. The
          > meanings of those two Dutch words seem to all fall within the range of
          > meanings of EN fresh.
          >
          > If you are going to have 2 separate words (Like Dutch or Scandy), and
          > have *frisch and *fersch/fresch, you have the problem of deciding which
          > meanings go with which words. You can't just simply say NL vers is the
          > exact equivalent to SV färsk and NL fris to SV frisk.
          > And I don't think that it's definitely possible to say that
          > "SV färsk = NL vers
          > and SV frisk = NL fris
          > but SV färsk ≠ NL fris".
          >
          > I don't think that would be a totally accurate statement.
          >
          > So if you had 2 separate words, which meaning/context to associate with
          > which word would be entirely a matter of opinion and native language
          > habbits. A Dutch speaker might be using *fersch where a Danish speaker
          > might assume to use *frisch. And a German or English or French speaker
          > would flip-flop at random between *frisch and *fersch. Or use one to the
          > total exclusion of the other.
          >
          > My opinion is that e-versions of these cognates are slightly more
          > prevalent. There are e-versions in EN fresh, NL vers, Scandy fersk.
          > There are i-versions in NL fris, DE frisch, and Scandy frisk. But as a
          > tie-breaker, there is Romance frais/fresco and Russian presnyj
          > If we must have one word, I think with an e vowel is preferable.
          >
          > Andrew Jarrette wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
          > > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
          > > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
          > > "frisch" (for both meanings).
          > >
          > > >Stephan
          > >
          > > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
          > > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
          > > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
          > > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
          > > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
          > > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
          > > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
          > > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
          > > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
          > > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
          > > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
          > > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development)).
          > > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
          > > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
          > > cool" in English (at least where I live).
          > >
          > > Andrew
          > >
          > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
          > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
          > > for the vowel.
          > >
          > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
          > > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
          > >
          > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
          > >
          > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
          > >
          > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
          > >
          > > > EN just has fresh.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
          > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
          > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
          > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
          > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
          > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
          > > (related by way of PIE)
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
          > >
          > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
          > > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
          > > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
          > > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
          > > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
          > >
          > >
          >
        • chamavian
          And for vers : http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=vers
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 16, 2010
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            And for "vers":

            http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=vers

            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > For the meanings of the Dutch word "fris", click below:
            >
            > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=fris
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
            > >
            > > The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from
            > > Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot
            > > contact and influence by French, the words in those languages were
            > > influenced by the French words. Eg Old English already had "fersc". The
            > > Norman's arrive and bring old French "freis" with them which has enough
            > > of the same meaning to be obviously the same word. It doesn't simply
            > > replace OE fersc, but it does influence it's form and meaning. It's not
            > > the only time this happened. Norman French had many Germanic borrowings.
            > > Some of these Germanic words replaced or influenced the native English
            > > cognate.
            > > Possibly something similar happened in Dutch. Or my theory is that vers
            > > is the older Dutch word. In a later period, Dutch also borrowed German
            > > frisch, which was adapted in form to *fris. It had a subtly different
            > > meaning or context, which was the motivation for acquiring it.
            > >
            > >
            > > "vers = fresh (nothing more nothing less)". That's kind of
            > > linguistically naive.There is almost always more than one word for any
            > > particular concept. And any one word almost alway has more than one
            > > meaning/concept attached to it.
            > > "fresh" means a whole lot of things! "vers" means a whole lot of things!
            > >
            > > Dutch fris would often be translated to EN fresh, as would NL vers. The
            > > meanings of those two Dutch words seem to all fall within the range of
            > > meanings of EN fresh.
            > >
            > > If you are going to have 2 separate words (Like Dutch or Scandy), and
            > > have *frisch and *fersch/fresch, you have the problem of deciding which
            > > meanings go with which words. You can't just simply say NL vers is the
            > > exact equivalent to SV färsk and NL fris to SV frisk.
            > > And I don't think that it's definitely possible to say that
            > > "SV färsk = NL vers
            > > and SV frisk = NL fris
            > > but SV färsk ≠ NL fris".
            > >
            > > I don't think that would be a totally accurate statement.
            > >
            > > So if you had 2 separate words, which meaning/context to associate with
            > > which word would be entirely a matter of opinion and native language
            > > habbits. A Dutch speaker might be using *fersch where a Danish speaker
            > > might assume to use *frisch. And a German or English or French speaker
            > > would flip-flop at random between *frisch and *fersch. Or use one to the
            > > total exclusion of the other.
            > >
            > > My opinion is that e-versions of these cognates are slightly more
            > > prevalent. There are e-versions in EN fresh, NL vers, Scandy fersk.
            > > There are i-versions in NL fris, DE frisch, and Scandy frisk. But as a
            > > tie-breaker, there is Romance frais/fresco and Russian presnyj
            > > If we must have one word, I think with an e vowel is preferable.
            > >
            > > Andrew Jarrette wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
            > > > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
            > > > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
            > > > "frisch" (for both meanings).
            > > >
            > > > >Stephan
            > > >
            > > > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
            > > > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
            > > > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
            > > > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
            > > > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
            > > > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
            > > > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
            > > > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
            > > > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
            > > > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
            > > > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
            > > > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development)).
            > > > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
            > > > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
            > > > cool" in English (at least where I live).
            > > >
            > > > Andrew
            > > >
            > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
            > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
            > > > for the vowel.
            > > >
            > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
            > > > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
            > > >
            > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
            > > >
            > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
            > > >
            > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
            > > >
            > > > > EN just has fresh.
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
            > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
            > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
            > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
            > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
            > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
            > > > (related by way of PIE)
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
            > > >
            > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
            > > > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
            > > > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
            > > > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
            > > > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Andrew Jarrette
            Webster s New World College Dictionary says that is from German , confused with ( new, not
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
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              Webster's New World College Dictionary says that <fresh (2) 'bold, saucy, impertinent, impudent'> is from German <frech>, confused with <fresh (1)> ('new, not preserved, etc.), and that <fresh (2)> is an Americanism.

              Andrew

              --- On Fri, 1/15/10, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:

              From: David Parke <parked@...>
              Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
              To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:59 PM

              Yiddish isn't the only "dialect" of German that uses [S] for the
              ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of
              German rather than a distinct language). And a typical English speaker
              normally would hear the standard ich-laut as [S]. If you're not trained
              in German, you don't have the attunement to hear the distinction.
              But you're probably right. In English "fresh" can mean having chutzpah.
              So it sound's like the kind of vocabulary related to human relationships
              that's likely to be borrowed from Yiddish.

              It's not possible to say that EN fresh is borrowed from German/Yiddish
              frech without qualifying that statement.. Obviously English already had
              "fresh" BEFORE the linguistic contact that occured with German
              /Austrian/Swiss/Ashkenazic immigrants. But in the period of contact in
              19th century America, EN fresh acquired the meaning of DE/Yiddish frech.
              It didn't loose it's original meaning, it just added much of the meaning
              of "frech" to the mix. The dialect of the Americans most likely didn't
              include "freck". This word is archaic in English and restricted now to
              only certain dialects. An English-speaker who is aware of "freck" would
              be (I'd speculate), less likely to equate DE frech with fresh and more
              likely to equate it with freck.

              The meaning of *FREKK that I have added is "FREKK a. = fresh, bold,
              impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy, saucy"
              That's the meanings shared by EN fresh, DE frech and Scandy
              fræk/frekk/fräck. Note, it's SHARED meanings, not ALL meanings.
              It doesn't seem to have quite as an extremely obscene meaning as the
              Scandy word.


              chamavian wrote:
              >
              > My guess would be that American fresh would not come directly from
              > German "frech", but from a Yiddish pronunciation "fresh" of the same
              > word. Like in Yiddish "ish" vs German "ich", the ich-laut [C] of
              > German became sh [S] in Yiddish.
              > And it's just the kind of word that American English would borrow from
              > Yiddish.
              > But I don't know if that's true in this case, it's just my own theory
              >
              > Ingmar
              >
              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > And I now see that German frech is not related to frisch etc. It's
              > > related to obvious cognates such as DA fræk, NO frekk, SV fräck. It's
              > > also related to NL vrek (noun meaning a miser) and EN dialect freck.
              > > Probably also EN freak. And there's a probable reason that EN fresh
              > > shares some meaning with DE frech and that is that DE frech was
              > probably
              > > borrowed into American English. Or if not exactly borrowed, some of the
              > > meaning of DE frech rubbed off onto EN fresh.
              > >
              > > So I have now added a new word to my vocab
              > > FREKK
              > > a. = fresh, bold, impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy,
              > saucy
              > > cf EN fresh, freak, freck, NL vrek, DE frech, DA fræk, NO frekk, SV
              > fräck.
              > > f. PG ??
              > >
              > > David wrote:
              > > >
              > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
              > > >
              > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
              > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
              > > >
              > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
              > > >
              > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
              > > > for the vowel.
              > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that consonants
              > > > go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
              > > >
              > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
              > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
              > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
              > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
              > > > EN just has fresh.
              > > >
              > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
              > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
              > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
              > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would
              > all
              > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
              > > >
              > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
              > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
              > > > (related by way of PIE)
              > > >
              > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
              > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a huge
              > > > can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning between
              > > > *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
              > link to
              > > > which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like ENglish
              > > > or German and only have a single word.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date:
              > 01/14/10 19:35:00
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
              >
              >   



              ------------------------------------

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David
              Well I would say that *frekk is a good word for Folksprak based at least in part on EN fresh and DE frech, Scandy frekk. It seems that only in Dutch is the
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
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                Well I would say that *frekk is a good word for Folksprak based at least in part on EN fresh and DE frech, Scandy frekk.
                It seems that only in Dutch is the cognate missing that cluster of meanings.
                Dutch does in fact have VREK, which is cognate. But it's got a different meaning, a whole different part of speech. It's a noun meaning something like EN miser or scrooge.

                I would say that EN fresh with the sense of saucy or pert is not a part of my normal English variety (an Americanism). But it's definitely a usage that I passively understand. We get the American TV sit-com "The Fresh Prince of Belle-Air" in New Zealand also.


                I'm still none the wiser about whether Folksprak should have *fresch or *frisch or even *fersch. I'm not particularly in favour of one or the other, since there are merits to all of those forms. But I think that it would be unwise to have BOTH, so we need to settle on one.

                Well, maybe we could have both if it was a tomayto/tomahto type of situation -- with both words being exactly evivalent and able to be used interchangeably according to individual preference.

                But I don't like the idea of having BOTH *frisch and *fresch as separate words with separate meanings. (The situation with NL fris/vers and Scandy frisk/fersk). Basically the difference in meanings is too subtle and it would be difficult to systematically decide which word held which meaning.


                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:
                >
                > Webster's New World College Dictionary says that <fresh (2) 'bold, saucy, impertinent, impudent'> is from German <frech>, confused with <fresh (1)> ('new, not preserved, etc.), and that <fresh (2)> is an Americanism.
                >
                > Andrew
                >
                > --- On Fri, 1/15/10, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: David Parke <parked@...>
                > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > Received: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:59 PM
                >
                > Yiddish isn't the only "dialect" of German that uses [S] for the
                > ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of
                > German rather than a distinct language). And a typical English speaker
                > normally would hear the standard ich-laut as [S]. If you're not trained
                > in German, you don't have the attunement to hear the distinction.
                > But you're probably right. In English "fresh" can mean having chutzpah.
                > So it sound's like the kind of vocabulary related to human relationships
                > that's likely to be borrowed from Yiddish.
                >
                > It's not possible to say that EN fresh is borrowed from German/Yiddish
                > frech without qualifying that statement.. Obviously English already had
                > "fresh" BEFORE the linguistic contact that occured with German
                > /Austrian/Swiss/Ashkenazic immigrants. But in the period of contact in
                > 19th century America, EN fresh acquired the meaning of DE/Yiddish frech.
                > It didn't loose it's original meaning, it just added much of the meaning
                > of "frech" to the mix. The dialect of the Americans most likely didn't
                > include "freck". This word is archaic in English and restricted now to
                > only certain dialects. An English-speaker who is aware of "freck" would
                > be (I'd speculate), less likely to equate DE frech with fresh and more
                > likely to equate it with freck.
                >
                > The meaning of *FREKK that I have added is "FREKK a. = fresh, bold,
                > impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy, saucy"
                > That's the meanings shared by EN fresh, DE frech and Scandy
                > fræk/frekk/fräck. Note, it's SHARED meanings, not ALL meanings.
                > It doesn't seem to have quite as an extremely obscene meaning as the
                > Scandy word.
                >
                >
                > chamavian wrote:
                > >
                > > My guess would be that American fresh would not come directly from
                > > German "frech", but from a Yiddish pronunciation "fresh" of the same
                > > word. Like in Yiddish "ish" vs German "ich", the ich-laut [C] of
                > > German became sh [S] in Yiddish.
                > > And it's just the kind of word that American English would borrow from
                > > Yiddish.
                > > But I don't know if that's true in this case, it's just my own theory
                > >
                > > Ingmar
                > >
                > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > And I now see that German frech is not related to frisch etc. It's
                > > > related to obvious cognates such as DA fræk, NO frekk, SV fräck. It's
                > > > also related to NL vrek (noun meaning a miser) and EN dialect freck.
                > > > Probably also EN freak. And there's a probable reason that EN fresh
                > > > shares some meaning with DE frech and that is that DE frech was
                > > probably
                > > > borrowed into American English. Or if not exactly borrowed, some of the
                > > > meaning of DE frech rubbed off onto EN fresh.
                > > >
                > > > So I have now added a new word to my vocab
                > > > FREKK
                > > > a. = fresh, bold, impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy,
                > > saucy
                > > > cf EN fresh, freak, freck, NL vrek, DE frech, DA fræk, NO frekk, SV
                > > fräck.
                > > > f. PG ??
                > > >
                > > > David wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                > > > >
                > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                > > > >
                > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                > > > >
                > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                > > > > for the vowel.
                > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that consonants
                > > > > go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                > > > >
                > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                > > > > EN just has fresh.
                > > > >
                > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would
                > > all
                > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                > > > >
                > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                > > > > (related by way of PIE)
                > > > >
                > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a huge
                > > > > can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning between
                > > > > *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                > > link to
                > > > > which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like ENglish
                > > > > or German and only have a single word.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date:
                > > 01/14/10 19:35:00
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
                > >
                > >   
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • David
                According to that website, vers can be a synonym for fris and vise-versa. They both also share the synonyms nieuw and schoon . So there is some overlap
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
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                  According to that website, "vers" can be a synonym for "fris and vise-versa. They both also share the synonyms "nieuw" and "schoon".
                  So there is some overlap in meaning apparently.

                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > And for "vers":
                  >
                  > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=vers
                  >
                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > For the meanings of the Dutch word "fris", click below:
                  > >
                  > > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=fris
                  > >
                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from
                  > > > Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot
                  > > > contact and influence by French, the words in those languages were
                  > > > influenced by the French words. Eg Old English already had "fersc". The
                  > > > Norman's arrive and bring old French "freis" with them which has enough
                  > > > of the same meaning to be obviously the same word. It doesn't simply
                  > > > replace OE fersc, but it does influence it's form and meaning. It's not
                  > > > the only time this happened. Norman French had many Germanic borrowings.
                  > > > Some of these Germanic words replaced or influenced the native English
                  > > > cognate.
                  > > > Possibly something similar happened in Dutch. Or my theory is that vers
                  > > > is the older Dutch word. In a later period, Dutch also borrowed German
                  > > > frisch, which was adapted in form to *fris. It had a subtly different
                  > > > meaning or context, which was the motivation for acquiring it.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "vers = fresh (nothing more nothing less)". That's kind of
                  > > > linguistically naive.There is almost always more than one word for any
                  > > > particular concept. And any one word almost alway has more than one
                  > > > meaning/concept attached to it.
                  > > > "fresh" means a whole lot of things! "vers" means a whole lot of things!
                  > > >
                  > > > Dutch fris would often be translated to EN fresh, as would NL vers. The
                  > > > meanings of those two Dutch words seem to all fall within the range of
                  > > > meanings of EN fresh.
                  > > >
                  > > > If you are going to have 2 separate words (Like Dutch or Scandy), and
                  > > > have *frisch and *fersch/fresch, you have the problem of deciding which
                  > > > meanings go with which words. You can't just simply say NL vers is the
                  > > > exact equivalent to SV färsk and NL fris to SV frisk.
                  > > > And I don't think that it's definitely possible to say that
                  > > > "SV färsk = NL vers
                  > > > and SV frisk = NL fris
                  > > > but SV färsk ≠ NL fris".
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't think that would be a totally accurate statement.
                  > > >
                  > > > So if you had 2 separate words, which meaning/context to associate with
                  > > > which word would be entirely a matter of opinion and native language
                  > > > habbits. A Dutch speaker might be using *fersch where a Danish speaker
                  > > > might assume to use *frisch. And a German or English or French speaker
                  > > > would flip-flop at random between *frisch and *fersch. Or use one to the
                  > > > total exclusion of the other.
                  > > >
                  > > > My opinion is that e-versions of these cognates are slightly more
                  > > > prevalent. There are e-versions in EN fresh, NL vers, Scandy fersk.
                  > > > There are i-versions in NL fris, DE frisch, and Scandy frisk. But as a
                  > > > tie-breaker, there is Romance frais/fresco and Russian presnyj
                  > > > If we must have one word, I think with an e vowel is preferable.
                  > > >
                  > > > Andrew Jarrette wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                  > > > > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                  > > > > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                  > > > > "frisch" (for both meanings).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >Stephan
                  > > > >
                  > > > > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
                  > > > > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
                  > > > > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
                  > > > > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
                  > > > > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
                  > > > > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
                  > > > > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
                  > > > > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
                  > > > > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
                  > > > > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
                  > > > > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
                  > > > > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development)).
                  > > > > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
                  > > > > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                  > > > > cool" in English (at least where I live).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Andrew
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                  > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                  > > > > for the vowel.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                  > > > > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > EN just has fresh.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                  > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                  > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                  > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
                  > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                  > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                  > > > > (related by way of PIE)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                  > > > > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                  > > > > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                  > > > > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
                  > > > > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • chamavian
                  yes, but een verse appel is not the same as een frisse appel. the former is a fresh, i.e. new, apple, the latter a fresh-tasting or a cold apple. when a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
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                    yes, but
                    een verse appel
                    is not the same as
                    een frisse appel.
                    the former is a fresh, i.e. new, apple, the latter a fresh-tasting or a cold apple.

                    when a company wants to employ new people with new ideas, they can say

                    we hebben vers bloed nodig, frisse gezichten met verse, frisse plannen om een frisse wind door ons bedrijf te laten waaien

                    we need fresh blood, fresh faces with fresh, fresh plans to let a fresh wind blow through our company



                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > According to that website, "vers" can be a synonym for "fris and vise-versa. They both also share the synonyms "nieuw" and "schoon".
                    > So there is some overlap in meaning apparently.
                    >
                    > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > And for "vers":
                    > >
                    > > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=vers
                    > >
                    > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > For the meanings of the Dutch word "fris", click below:
                    > > >
                    > > > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=fris
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from
                    > > > > Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot
                    > > > > contact and influence by French, the words in those languages were
                    > > > > influenced by the French words. Eg Old English already had "fersc". The
                    > > > > Norman's arrive and bring old French "freis" with them which has enough
                    > > > > of the same meaning to be obviously the same word. It doesn't simply
                    > > > > replace OE fersc, but it does influence it's form and meaning. It's not
                    > > > > the only time this happened. Norman French had many Germanic borrowings.
                    > > > > Some of these Germanic words replaced or influenced the native English
                    > > > > cognate.
                    > > > > Possibly something similar happened in Dutch. Or my theory is that vers
                    > > > > is the older Dutch word. In a later period, Dutch also borrowed German
                    > > > > frisch, which was adapted in form to *fris. It had a subtly different
                    > > > > meaning or context, which was the motivation for acquiring it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "vers = fresh (nothing more nothing less)". That's kind of
                    > > > > linguistically naive.There is almost always more than one word for any
                    > > > > particular concept. And any one word almost alway has more than one
                    > > > > meaning/concept attached to it.
                    > > > > "fresh" means a whole lot of things! "vers" means a whole lot of things!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Dutch fris would often be translated to EN fresh, as would NL vers. The
                    > > > > meanings of those two Dutch words seem to all fall within the range of
                    > > > > meanings of EN fresh.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If you are going to have 2 separate words (Like Dutch or Scandy), and
                    > > > > have *frisch and *fersch/fresch, you have the problem of deciding which
                    > > > > meanings go with which words. You can't just simply say NL vers is the
                    > > > > exact equivalent to SV färsk and NL fris to SV frisk.
                    > > > > And I don't think that it's definitely possible to say that
                    > > > > "SV färsk = NL vers
                    > > > > and SV frisk = NL fris
                    > > > > but SV färsk ≠ NL fris".
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't think that would be a totally accurate statement.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So if you had 2 separate words, which meaning/context to associate with
                    > > > > which word would be entirely a matter of opinion and native language
                    > > > > habbits. A Dutch speaker might be using *fersch where a Danish speaker
                    > > > > might assume to use *frisch. And a German or English or French speaker
                    > > > > would flip-flop at random between *frisch and *fersch. Or use one to the
                    > > > > total exclusion of the other.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My opinion is that e-versions of these cognates are slightly more
                    > > > > prevalent. There are e-versions in EN fresh, NL vers, Scandy fersk.
                    > > > > There are i-versions in NL fris, DE frisch, and Scandy frisk. But as a
                    > > > > tie-breaker, there is Romance frais/fresco and Russian presnyj
                    > > > > If we must have one word, I think with an e vowel is preferable.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Andrew Jarrette wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                    > > > > > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                    > > > > > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                    > > > > > "frisch" (for both meanings).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >Stephan
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
                    > > > > > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
                    > > > > > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
                    > > > > > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
                    > > > > > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
                    > > > > > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
                    > > > > > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
                    > > > > > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
                    > > > > > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
                    > > > > > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
                    > > > > > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
                    > > > > > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development)).
                    > > > > > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
                    > > > > > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                    > > > > > cool" in English (at least where I live).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Andrew
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                    > > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                    > > > > > for the vowel.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                    > > > > > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > EN just has fresh.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                    > > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                    > > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                    > > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
                    > > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                    > > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                    > > > > > (related by way of PIE)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                    > > > > > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                    > > > > > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                    > > > > > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
                    > > > > > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > > > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • David
                    I d still say that the obvious translation into English of BOTH fris and vers would be fresh . Or to frisch when translating to German. Fresh can mean new
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
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                      I'd still say that the obvious translation into English of BOTH fris and vers would be "fresh". Or to "frisch" when translating to German.



                      "Fresh" can mean new and young, but also cool and crisp or even warm and soft. It perhaps just focusing on the positive aspects of being new and young. When we praise an apple for being fresh, it should be cold and crisp. When we praise bread for being fresh, it should if anything be warm and soft -- attributes not normally associated with fresh apples. Cold and hard bread isn't generally regarded as fresh.

                      English and German might come across as frustratingly vague a Dutch speaker in that respect.

                      But there are other issues where English has two words where another language might make do with one. Eg English has both Human and Humane. English speakers would insist that there is (sometimes) a difference. But other languages (such as IL) might have just "humano" to translate both the English words.

                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > yes, but
                      > een verse appel
                      > is not the same as
                      > een frisse appel.
                      > the former is a fresh, i.e. new, apple, the latter a fresh-tasting or a cold apple.
                      >
                      > when a company wants to employ new people with new ideas, they can say
                      >
                      > we hebben vers bloed nodig, frisse gezichten met verse, frisse plannen om een frisse wind door ons bedrijf te laten waaien
                      >
                      > we need fresh blood, fresh faces with fresh, fresh plans to let a fresh wind blow through our company
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > According to that website, "vers" can be a synonym for "fris and vise-versa. They both also share the synonyms "nieuw" and "schoon".
                      > > So there is some overlap in meaning apparently.
                      > >
                      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > And for "vers":
                      > > >
                      > > > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=vers
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > For the meanings of the Dutch word "fris", click below:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=fris
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The borrowings in the Romance languages (frais/fresco) are from
                      > > > > > Germanic. Although in the case of English and Dutch, because of a lot
                      > > > > > contact and influence by French, the words in those languages were
                      > > > > > influenced by the French words. Eg Old English already had "fersc". The
                      > > > > > Norman's arrive and bring old French "freis" with them which has enough
                      > > > > > of the same meaning to be obviously the same word. It doesn't simply
                      > > > > > replace OE fersc, but it does influence it's form and meaning. It's not
                      > > > > > the only time this happened. Norman French had many Germanic borrowings.
                      > > > > > Some of these Germanic words replaced or influenced the native English
                      > > > > > cognate.
                      > > > > > Possibly something similar happened in Dutch. Or my theory is that vers
                      > > > > > is the older Dutch word. In a later period, Dutch also borrowed German
                      > > > > > frisch, which was adapted in form to *fris. It had a subtly different
                      > > > > > meaning or context, which was the motivation for acquiring it.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "vers = fresh (nothing more nothing less)". That's kind of
                      > > > > > linguistically naive.There is almost always more than one word for any
                      > > > > > particular concept. And any one word almost alway has more than one
                      > > > > > meaning/concept attached to it.
                      > > > > > "fresh" means a whole lot of things! "vers" means a whole lot of things!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Dutch fris would often be translated to EN fresh, as would NL vers. The
                      > > > > > meanings of those two Dutch words seem to all fall within the range of
                      > > > > > meanings of EN fresh.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > If you are going to have 2 separate words (Like Dutch or Scandy), and
                      > > > > > have *frisch and *fersch/fresch, you have the problem of deciding which
                      > > > > > meanings go with which words. You can't just simply say NL vers is the
                      > > > > > exact equivalent to SV färsk and NL fris to SV frisk.
                      > > > > > And I don't think that it's definitely possible to say that
                      > > > > > "SV färsk = NL vers
                      > > > > > and SV frisk = NL fris
                      > > > > > but SV färsk ≠ NL fris".
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I don't think that would be a totally accurate statement.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So if you had 2 separate words, which meaning/context to associate with
                      > > > > > which word would be entirely a matter of opinion and native language
                      > > > > > habbits. A Dutch speaker might be using *fersch where a Danish speaker
                      > > > > > might assume to use *frisch. And a German or English or French speaker
                      > > > > > would flip-flop at random between *frisch and *fersch. Or use one to the
                      > > > > > total exclusion of the other.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > My opinion is that e-versions of these cognates are slightly more
                      > > > > > prevalent. There are e-versions in EN fresh, NL vers, Scandy fersk.
                      > > > > > There are i-versions in NL fris, DE frisch, and Scandy frisk. But as a
                      > > > > > tie-breaker, there is Romance frais/fresco and Russian presnyj
                      > > > > > If we must have one word, I think with an e vowel is preferable.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Andrew Jarrette wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                      > > > > > > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                      > > > > > > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                      > > > > > > "frisch" (for both meanings).
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >Stephan
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
                      > > > > > > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
                      > > > > > > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
                      > > > > > > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
                      > > > > > > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
                      > > > > > > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
                      > > > > > > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
                      > > > > > > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
                      > > > > > > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
                      > > > > > > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
                      > > > > > > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
                      > > > > > > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development)).
                      > > > > > > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
                      > > > > > > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                      > > > > > > cool" in English (at least where I live).
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Andrew
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                      > > > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                      > > > > > > for the vowel.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                      > > > > > > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > EN just has fresh.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                      > > > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                      > > > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                      > > > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
                      > > > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                      > > > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                      > > > > > > (related by way of PIE)
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                      > > > > > > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                      > > > > > > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                      > > > > > > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
                      > > > > > > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > > > > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Andrew Jarrette
                      ... From: David Subject: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch? To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 3:50 PM  
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- On Sun, 1/17/10, David <parked@...> wrote:

                        From: David <parked@...>
                        Subject: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                        To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 3:50 PM







                         









                        Well I would say that *frekk is a good word for Folksprak based at least in part on EN fresh and DE frech, Scandy frekk.

                        It seems that only in Dutch is the cognate missing that cluster of meanings.

                        Dutch does in fact have VREK, which is cognate. But it's got a different meaning, a whole different part of speech. It's a noun meaning something like EN miser or scrooge.



                        I would say that EN fresh with the sense of saucy or pert is not a part of my normal English variety (an Americanism) . But it's definitely a usage that I passively understand. We get the American TV sit-com "The Fresh Prince of Belle-Air" in New Zealand also.__________________________________________________________
                        I think Brits usually use the term "cheeky" where (some) Americans might say "fresh".  Is "cheeky" used in NZ?
                        __________________________________________________________

                        I'm still none the wiser about whether Folksprak should have *fresch or *frisch or even *fersch. I'm not particularly in favour of one or the other, since there are merits to all of those forms. But I think that it would be unwise to have BOTH, so we need to settle on one.

                        __________________________________________________________I really don't see why we mustn't have both -- Dutch and Scandinavian do just fine with both, it seems.  I think accuracy of meaning is a worthy goal, and having the two words improves accuracy of meaning, if one is used to mean only "new (unpreserved, undecomposed, not stale, etc.)" (the Germanic meaning) while the other is used to mean only  "crisp, cool" (the French meaning), or any other distinct meaning.  Dutch has other meanings for <fris> such as "lively" and several others, but one need choose only one.__________________________________________________________
                        Well, maybe we could have both if it was a tomayto/tomahto type of situation -- with both words being exactly evivalent and able to be used interchangeably according to individual preference.

                        __________________________________________________________Why complicate things?  If only one meaning is to occur, then one needs only one word.  If we have two distinct meanings, then we need two words.__________________________________________________________

                        But I don't like the idea of having BOTH *frisch and *fresch as separate words with separate meanings. (The situation with NL fris/vers and Scandy frisk/fersk) . Basically the difference in meanings is too subtle and it would be difficult to systematically decide which word held which meaning.__________________________________________________________One need not maintain a subtle difference in meaning between *frisch and *fresch.  One could refer only to newness of condition, while the other could refer only to weather/outdoor conditions.  Or one of  the other meanings of the Dutch and Scandinavian words, as long as it is sufficiently different from the "new" meaning.By the way, I said that "fresh" is little used in the sense "crisply cool" where I live.  I forgot about the common expression "fresh air", the only case I know of where "fresh" does have the sense of "crisp, cool" in common use (where I live).  However, in "fresh air" the word "fresh"
                        is perceived as meaning "not stale", i.e. opposed to the stale air of the indoors -- and also "clean", not polluted, along the lines of "not decomposed".  Such air is usually cool and breezy, as opposed to hot humid air that often brings pollutants from factories and industrial sites to the south, and is associated with being sweaty, therefore feeling less "clean" than cooler air.  In any case, for me at least, and I think for most people, "fresh air" is not necessarily crisply cool air, it means fundamentally "clean outdoor air".
                        Andrew

                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ ...> wrote:

                        >

                        > Webster's New World College Dictionary says that <fresh (2) 'bold, saucy, impertinent, impudent'> is from German <frech>, confused with <fresh (1)> ('new, not preserved, etc.), and that <fresh (2)> is an Americanism.

                        >

                        > Andrew

                        >

                        > --- On Fri, 1/15/10, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > From: David Parke <parked@...>

                        > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?

                        > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                        > Received: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:59 PM

                        >

                        > Yiddish isn't the only "dialect" of German that uses [S] for the

                        > ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of

                        > German rather than a distinct language). And a typical English speaker

                        > normally would hear the standard ich-laut as [S]. If you're not trained

                        > in German, you don't have the attunement to hear the distinction.

                        > But you're probably right. In English "fresh" can mean having chutzpah..

                        > So it sound's like the kind of vocabulary related to human relationships

                        > that's likely to be borrowed from Yiddish.

                        >

                        > It's not possible to say that EN fresh is borrowed from German/Yiddish

                        > frech without qualifying that statement.. Obviously English already had

                        > "fresh" BEFORE the linguistic contact that occured with German

                        > /Austrian/Swiss/ Ashkenazic immigrants. But in the period of contact in

                        > 19th century America, EN fresh acquired the meaning of DE/Yiddish frech.

                        > It didn't loose it's original meaning, it just added much of the meaning

                        > of "frech" to the mix. The dialect of the Americans most likely didn't

                        > include "freck". This word is archaic in English and restricted now to

                        > only certain dialects. An English-speaker who is aware of "freck" would

                        > be (I'd speculate), less likely to equate DE frech with fresh and more

                        > likely to equate it with freck.

                        >

                        > The meaning of *FREKK that I have added is "FREKK a. = fresh, bold,

                        > impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy, saucy"

                        > That's the meanings shared by EN fresh, DE frech and Scandy

                        > fræk/frekk/frä ck. Note, it's SHARED meanings, not ALL meanings.

                        > It doesn't seem to have quite as an extremely obscene meaning as the

                        > Scandy word.

                        >

                        >

                        > chamavian wrote:

                        > >

                        > > My guess would be that American fresh would not come directly from

                        > > German "frech", but from a Yiddish pronunciation "fresh" of the same

                        > > word. Like in Yiddish "ish" vs German "ich", the ich-laut [C] of

                        > > German became sh [S] in Yiddish.

                        > > And it's just the kind of word that American English would borrow from

                        > > Yiddish.

                        > > But I don't know if that's true in this case, it's just my own theory

                        > >

                        > > Ingmar

                        > >

                        > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                        > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:

                        > > >

                        > > >

                        > > > And I now see that German frech is not related to frisch etc. It's

                        > > > related to obvious cognates such as DA fræk, NO frekk, SV fräck. It's

                        > > > also related to NL vrek (noun meaning a miser) and EN dialect freck.

                        > > > Probably also EN freak. And there's a probable reason that EN fresh

                        > > > shares some meaning with DE frech and that is that DE frech was

                        > > probably

                        > > > borrowed into American English. Or if not exactly borrowed, some of the

                        > > > meaning of DE frech rubbed off onto EN fresh.

                        > > >

                        > > > So I have now added a new word to my vocab

                        > > > FREKK

                        > > > a. = fresh, bold, impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy,

                        > > saucy

                        > > > cf EN fresh, freak, freck, NL vrek, DE frech, DA fræk, NO frekk, SV

                        > > fräck.

                        > > > f. PG ??

                        > > >

                        > > > David wrote:

                        > > > >

                        > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.

                        > > > >

                        > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,

                        > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young

                        > > > >

                        > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently

                        > > > >

                        > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be

                        > > > > for the vowel.

                        > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that consonants

                        > > > > go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.

                        > > > >

                        > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.

                        > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.

                        > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.

                        > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)

                        > > > > EN just has fresh.

                        > > > >

                        > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from

                        > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV

                        > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist

                        > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would

                        > > all

                        > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.

                        > > > >

                        > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and

                        > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.

                        > > > > (related by way of PIE)

                        > > > >

                        > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.

                        > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a huge

                        > > > > can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning between

                        > > > > *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to

                        > > link to

                        > > > > which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like ENglish

                        > > > > or German and only have a single word.

                        > > > >

                        > > > >

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                        > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                        > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

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                      • David
                        Cheeky would be more common in NZ English than fresh . And I had never noticed before that cheeky isn t actively used by Americans. Fresh might have a
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 17, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          "Cheeky" would be more common in NZ English than "fresh". And I had never noticed before that "cheeky" isn't actively used by Americans.
                          "Fresh" might have a slightly more raunchy implication than "cheeky", when it is used at all. So if I gave a complement to a female colleague about her hair being ruffled/tussled and hinted that the reason for this disheveled state was due to a sexual encounter, I would be "fresh".



                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Sun, 1/17/10, David <parked@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: David <parked@...>
                          > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                          > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 3:50 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Well I would say that *frekk is a good word for Folksprak based at least in part on EN fresh and DE frech, Scandy frekk.
                          >
                          > It seems that only in Dutch is the cognate missing that cluster of meanings.
                          >
                          > Dutch does in fact have VREK, which is cognate. But it's got a different meaning, a whole different part of speech. It's a noun meaning something like EN miser or scrooge.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I would say that EN fresh with the sense of saucy or pert is not a part of my normal English variety (an Americanism) . But it's definitely a usage that I passively understand. We get the American TV sit-com "The Fresh Prince of Belle-Air" in New Zealand also.__________________________________________________________
                          > I think Brits usually use the term "cheeky" where (some) Americans might say "fresh".  Is "cheeky" used in NZ?
                          > __________________________________________________________
                          >
                          > I'm still none the wiser about whether Folksprak should have *fresch or *frisch or even *fersch. I'm not particularly in favour of one or the other, since there are merits to all of those forms. But I think that it would be unwise to have BOTH, so we need to settle on one.
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________I really don't see why we mustn't have both -- Dutch and Scandinavian do just fine with both, it seems.  I think accuracy of meaning is a worthy goal, and having the two words improves accuracy of meaning, if one is used to mean only "new (unpreserved, undecomposed, not stale, etc.)" (the Germanic meaning) while the other is used to mean only  "crisp, cool" (the French meaning), or any other distinct meaning.  Dutch has other meanings for <fris> such as "lively" and several others, but one need choose only one.__________________________________________________________
                          > Well, maybe we could have both if it was a tomayto/tomahto type of situation -- with both words being exactly evivalent and able to be used interchangeably according to individual preference.
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________Why complicate things?  If only one meaning is to occur, then one needs only one word.  If we have two distinct meanings, then we need two words.__________________________________________________________
                          >
                          > But I don't like the idea of having BOTH *frisch and *fresch as separate words with separate meanings. (The situation with NL fris/vers and Scandy frisk/fersk) . Basically the difference in meanings is too subtle and it would be difficult to systematically decide which word held which meaning.__________________________________________________________One need not maintain a subtle difference in meaning between *frisch and *fresch.  One could refer only to newness of condition, while the other could refer only to weather/outdoor conditions.  Or one of  the other meanings of the Dutch and Scandinavian words, as long as it is sufficiently different from the "new" meaning.By the way, I said that "fresh" is little used in the sense "crisply cool" where I live.  I forgot about the common expression "fresh air", the only case I know of where "fresh" does have the sense of "crisp, cool" in common use (where I live).  However, in "fresh air" the word "fresh"
                          > is perceived as meaning "not stale", i.e. opposed to the stale air of the indoors -- and also "clean", not polluted, along the lines of "not decomposed".  Such air is usually cool and breezy, as opposed to hot humid air that often brings pollutants from factories and industrial sites to the south, and is associated with being sweaty, therefore feeling less "clean" than cooler air.  In any case, for me at least, and I think for most people, "fresh air" is not necessarily crisply cool air, it means fundamentally "clean outdoor air".
                          > Andrew
                          >
                          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Webster's New World College Dictionary says that <fresh (2) 'bold, saucy, impertinent, impudent'> is from German <frech>, confused with <fresh (1)> ('new, not preserved, etc.), and that <fresh (2)> is an Americanism.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Andrew
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > --- On Fri, 1/15/10, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > From: David Parke <parked@>
                          >
                          > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                          >
                          > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                          >
                          > > Received: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:59 PM
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Yiddish isn't the only "dialect" of German that uses [S] for the
                          >
                          > > ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of
                          >
                          > > German rather than a distinct language). And a typical English speaker
                          >
                          > > normally would hear the standard ich-laut as [S]. If you're not trained
                          >
                          > > in German, you don't have the attunement to hear the distinction.
                          >
                          > > But you're probably right. In English "fresh" can mean having chutzpah..
                          >
                          > > So it sound's like the kind of vocabulary related to human relationships
                          >
                          > > that's likely to be borrowed from Yiddish.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > It's not possible to say that EN fresh is borrowed from German/Yiddish
                          >
                          > > frech without qualifying that statement.. Obviously English already had
                          >
                          > > "fresh" BEFORE the linguistic contact that occured with German
                          >
                          > > /Austrian/Swiss/ Ashkenazic immigrants. But in the period of contact in
                          >
                          > > 19th century America, EN fresh acquired the meaning of DE/Yiddish frech.
                          >
                          > > It didn't loose it's original meaning, it just added much of the meaning
                          >
                          > > of "frech" to the mix. The dialect of the Americans most likely didn't
                          >
                          > > include "freck". This word is archaic in English and restricted now to
                          >
                          > > only certain dialects. An English-speaker who is aware of "freck" would
                          >
                          > > be (I'd speculate), less likely to equate DE frech with fresh and more
                          >
                          > > likely to equate it with freck.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > The meaning of *FREKK that I have added is "FREKK a. = fresh, bold,
                          >
                          > > impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy, saucy"
                          >
                          > > That's the meanings shared by EN fresh, DE frech and Scandy
                          >
                          > > fræk/frekk/frä ck. Note, it's SHARED meanings, not ALL meanings.
                          >
                          > > It doesn't seem to have quite as an extremely obscene meaning as the
                          >
                          > > Scandy word.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > chamavian wrote:
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > My guess would be that American fresh would not come directly from
                          >
                          > > > German "frech", but from a Yiddish pronunciation "fresh" of the same
                          >
                          > > > word. Like in Yiddish "ish" vs German "ich", the ich-laut [C] of
                          >
                          > > > German became sh [S] in Yiddish.
                          >
                          > > > And it's just the kind of word that American English would borrow from
                          >
                          > > > Yiddish.
                          >
                          > > > But I don't know if that's true in this case, it's just my own theory
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > Ingmar
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                          >
                          > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > And I now see that German frech is not related to frisch etc. It's
                          >
                          > > > > related to obvious cognates such as DA fræk, NO frekk, SV fräck. It's
                          >
                          > > > > also related to NL vrek (noun meaning a miser) and EN dialect freck.
                          >
                          > > > > Probably also EN freak. And there's a probable reason that EN fresh
                          >
                          > > > > shares some meaning with DE frech and that is that DE frech was
                          >
                          > > > probably
                          >
                          > > > > borrowed into American English. Or if not exactly borrowed, some of the
                          >
                          > > > > meaning of DE frech rubbed off onto EN fresh.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > So I have now added a new word to my vocab
                          >
                          > > > > FREKK
                          >
                          > > > > a. = fresh, bold, impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy,
                          >
                          > > > saucy
                          >
                          > > > > cf EN fresh, freak, freck, NL vrek, DE frech, DA fræk, NO frekk, SV
                          >
                          > > > fräck.
                          >
                          > > > > f. PG ??
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > David wrote:
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                          >
                          > > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                          >
                          > > > > > for the vowel.
                          >
                          > > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that consonants
                          >
                          > > > > > go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                          >
                          > > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                          >
                          > > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                          >
                          > > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                          >
                          > > > > > EN just has fresh.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                          >
                          > > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                          >
                          > > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                          >
                          > > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would
                          >
                          > > > all
                          >
                          > > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                          >
                          > > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                          >
                          > > > > > (related by way of PIE)
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                          >
                          > > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a huge
                          >
                          > > > > > can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning between
                          >
                          > > > > > *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                          >
                          > > > link to
                          >
                          > > > > > which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like ENglish
                          >
                          > > > > > or German and only have a single word.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
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                          > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          >
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                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
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                          > > > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/14/10 19:35:00
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                          >
                          > > >   
                          >
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                          > >
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                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                        • David
                          I m pleased to announce that I have uncovered an antonym for *frisch and *frekk... in addition to ald of course... FAD a. = stale, bland, insipid, vapid,
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 18, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'm pleased to announce that I have uncovered an antonym for *frisch and *frekk... in addition to "ald" of course...

                            FAD
                            a. = stale, bland, insipid, vapid, flat
                            cf EN fade (archaic as adjective), also faded; DE fad/fade, DA fad, SV fadd, FR fade.
                            f. OFr fade, of obscure origin, possibly f. ProtoRomance *fatidus a portmanteau of L. fatuus and vapidus

                            And I am somewhat bemused that it's another word with no representation in Dutch. Normally FS gets something from Dutch...
                            Any other ideas for "stale" words? NL flauw seems to have cognates in NO/SV flau and DE flau but the shared meaning might not be exactly like EN stale.


                            And here's a semi-synonmyn for *frekk:

                            DRIST
                            a. = bold, brazen, daring, forward, impudent
                            cf NL driest, DE dreist, DA/NO/SV dristig
                            f. Old Saxon thrîsti, f. PG *thrinhstia-, related to *thringan


                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "Cheeky" would be more common in NZ English than "fresh". And I had never noticed before that "cheeky" isn't actively used by Americans.
                            > "Fresh" might have a slightly more raunchy implication than "cheeky", when it is used at all. So if I gave a complement to a female colleague about her hair being ruffled/tussled and hinted that the reason for this disheveled state was due to a sexual encounter, I would be "fresh".
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- On Sun, 1/17/10, David <parked@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > From: David <parked@>
                            > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                            > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 3:50 PM
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Well I would say that *frekk is a good word for Folksprak based at least in part on EN fresh and DE frech, Scandy frekk.
                            > >
                            > > It seems that only in Dutch is the cognate missing that cluster of meanings.
                            > >
                            > > Dutch does in fact have VREK, which is cognate. But it's got a different meaning, a whole different part of speech. It's a noun meaning something like EN miser or scrooge.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I would say that EN fresh with the sense of saucy or pert is not a part of my normal English variety (an Americanism) . But it's definitely a usage that I passively understand. We get the American TV sit-com "The Fresh Prince of Belle-Air" in New Zealand also.__________________________________________________________
                            > > I think Brits usually use the term "cheeky" where (some) Americans might say "fresh".  Is "cheeky" used in NZ?
                            > > __________________________________________________________
                            > >
                            > > I'm still none the wiser about whether Folksprak should have *fresch or *frisch or even *fersch. I'm not particularly in favour of one or the other, since there are merits to all of those forms. But I think that it would be unwise to have BOTH, so we need to settle on one.
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________________________________I really don't see why we mustn't have both -- Dutch and Scandinavian do just fine with both, it seems.  I think accuracy of meaning is a worthy goal, and having the two words improves accuracy of meaning, if one is used to mean only "new (unpreserved, undecomposed, not stale, etc.)" (the Germanic meaning) while the other is used to mean only  "crisp, cool" (the French meaning), or any other distinct meaning.  Dutch has other meanings for <fris> such as "lively" and several others, but one need choose only one.__________________________________________________________
                            > > Well, maybe we could have both if it was a tomayto/tomahto type of situation -- with both words being exactly evivalent and able to be used interchangeably according to individual preference.
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________________________________Why complicate things?  If only one meaning is to occur, then one needs only one word.  If we have two distinct meanings, then we need two words.__________________________________________________________
                            > >
                            > > But I don't like the idea of having BOTH *frisch and *fresch as separate words with separate meanings. (The situation with NL fris/vers and Scandy frisk/fersk) . Basically the difference in meanings is too subtle and it would be difficult to systematically decide which word held which meaning.__________________________________________________________One need not maintain a subtle difference in meaning between *frisch and *fresch.  One could refer only to newness of condition, while the other could refer only to weather/outdoor conditions.  Or one of  the other meanings of the Dutch and Scandinavian words, as long as it is sufficiently different from the "new" meaning.By the way, I said that "fresh" is little used in the sense "crisply cool" where I live.  I forgot about the common expression "fresh air", the only case I know of where "fresh" does have the sense of "crisp, cool" in common use (where I live).  However, in "fresh air" the word "fresh"
                            > > is perceived as meaning "not stale", i.e. opposed to the stale air of the indoors -- and also "clean", not polluted, along the lines of "not decomposed".  Such air is usually cool and breezy, as opposed to hot humid air that often brings pollutants from factories and industrial sites to the south, and is associated with being sweaty, therefore feeling less "clean" than cooler air.  In any case, for me at least, and I think for most people, "fresh air" is not necessarily crisply cool air, it means fundamentally "clean outdoor air".
                            > > Andrew
                            > >
                            > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ ...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > Webster's New World College Dictionary says that <fresh (2) 'bold, saucy, impertinent, impudent'> is from German <frech>, confused with <fresh (1)> ('new, not preserved, etc.), and that <fresh (2)> is an Americanism.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > Andrew
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > --- On Fri, 1/15/10, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > From: David Parke <parked@>
                            > >
                            > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                            > >
                            > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                            > >
                            > > > Received: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:59 PM
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > Yiddish isn't the only "dialect" of German that uses [S] for the
                            > >
                            > > > ich-laut. (If Yiddish could be considered a dialect or a creole of
                            > >
                            > > > German rather than a distinct language). And a typical English speaker
                            > >
                            > > > normally would hear the standard ich-laut as [S]. If you're not trained
                            > >
                            > > > in German, you don't have the attunement to hear the distinction.
                            > >
                            > > > But you're probably right. In English "fresh" can mean having chutzpah..
                            > >
                            > > > So it sound's like the kind of vocabulary related to human relationships
                            > >
                            > > > that's likely to be borrowed from Yiddish.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > It's not possible to say that EN fresh is borrowed from German/Yiddish
                            > >
                            > > > frech without qualifying that statement.. Obviously English already had
                            > >
                            > > > "fresh" BEFORE the linguistic contact that occured with German
                            > >
                            > > > /Austrian/Swiss/ Ashkenazic immigrants. But in the period of contact in
                            > >
                            > > > 19th century America, EN fresh acquired the meaning of DE/Yiddish frech.
                            > >
                            > > > It didn't loose it's original meaning, it just added much of the meaning
                            > >
                            > > > of "frech" to the mix. The dialect of the Americans most likely didn't
                            > >
                            > > > include "freck". This word is archaic in English and restricted now to
                            > >
                            > > > only certain dialects. An English-speaker who is aware of "freck" would
                            > >
                            > > > be (I'd speculate), less likely to equate DE frech with fresh and more
                            > >
                            > > > likely to equate it with freck.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > The meaning of *FREKK that I have added is "FREKK a. = fresh, bold,
                            > >
                            > > > impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy, saucy"
                            > >
                            > > > That's the meanings shared by EN fresh, DE frech and Scandy
                            > >
                            > > > fræk/frekk/frä ck. Note, it's SHARED meanings, not ALL meanings.
                            > >
                            > > > It doesn't seem to have quite as an extremely obscene meaning as the
                            > >
                            > > > Scandy word.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > chamavian wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > My guess would be that American fresh would not come directly from
                            > >
                            > > > > German "frech", but from a Yiddish pronunciation "fresh" of the same
                            > >
                            > > > > word. Like in Yiddish "ish" vs German "ich", the ich-laut [C] of
                            > >
                            > > > > German became sh [S] in Yiddish.
                            > >
                            > > > > And it's just the kind of word that American English would borrow from
                            > >
                            > > > > Yiddish.
                            > >
                            > > > > But I don't know if that's true in this case, it's just my own theory
                            > >
                            > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > Ingmar
                            > >
                            > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                            > >
                            > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > And I now see that German frech is not related to frisch etc. It's
                            > >
                            > > > > > related to obvious cognates such as DA fræk, NO frekk, SV fräck. It's
                            > >
                            > > > > > also related to NL vrek (noun meaning a miser) and EN dialect freck.
                            > >
                            > > > > > Probably also EN freak. And there's a probable reason that EN fresh
                            > >
                            > > > > > shares some meaning with DE frech and that is that DE frech was
                            > >
                            > > > > probably
                            > >
                            > > > > > borrowed into American English. Or if not exactly borrowed, some of the
                            > >
                            > > > > > meaning of DE frech rubbed off onto EN fresh.
                            > >
                            > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > So I have now added a new word to my vocab
                            > >
                            > > > > > FREKK
                            > >
                            > > > > > a. = fresh, bold, impertinent, impudent, cool, forward, pert, sassy,
                            > >
                            > > > > saucy
                            > >
                            > > > > > cf EN fresh, freak, freck, NL vrek, DE frech, DA fræk, NO frekk, SV
                            > >
                            > > > > fräck.
                            > >
                            > > > > > f. PG ??
                            > >
                            > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > David wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                            > >
                            > > > > > > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                            > >
                            > > > > > > for the vowel.
                            > >
                            > > > > > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that consonants
                            > >
                            > > > > > > go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                            > >
                            > > > > > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                            > >
                            > > > > > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                            > >
                            > > > > > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                            > >
                            > > > > > > EN just has fresh.
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                            > >
                            > > > > > > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                            > >
                            > > > > > > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                            > >
                            > > > > > > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would
                            > >
                            > > > > all
                            > >
                            > > > > > > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                            > >
                            > > > > > > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                            > >
                            > > > > > > (related by way of PIE)
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                            > >
                            > > > > > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a huge
                            > >
                            > > > > > > can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning between
                            > >
                            > > > > > > *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                            > >
                            > > > > link to
                            > >
                            > > > > > > which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like ENglish
                            > >
                            > > > > > > or German and only have a single word.
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
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                            > > > >   
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                            > >
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                            > >
                            > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
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                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                          • Stephan Schneider
                            Andrew, adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though. Stephan
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2010
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                              Andrew,

                              adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.

                              Stephan




                              ________________________________
                              Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...>
                              An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                              Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr
                              Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?


                              >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                              the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                              then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                              "frisch" (for both meanings).

                              >Stephan

                              That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ). I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                              cool" in English (at least where I live).

                              Andrew

                              --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:

                              >

                              > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.

                              >

                              > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                              airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young

                              >

                              > adv. = freshly, newly, recently

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be for the vowel.

                              > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                              consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.

                              >

                              > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.

                              > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.

                              > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.

                              > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)

                              > EN just has fresh.

                              >

                              > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                              language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                              färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                              that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
                              translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.

                              >

                              > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                              Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                              (related by way of PIE)

                              >

                              > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.

                              > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                              huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                              between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                              link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
                              ENglish or German and only have a single word.

                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                            • Andrew Jarrette
                              Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two separated meanings.  But you say that we should first try having one word for all of the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 19, 2010
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                                Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two separated meanings.  But you say that we should first try having one word for all of the meanings, as in German and English.  Note that I explained that in English (at least as I know it and speak it) <fresh> doesn't really mean 'crisply cool' when referring to weather phenomena, it really means 'not stale' - i.e. new air, air that has not been stagnant (as it usually is when indoors and as it often is when it is hot or humid).  Such air, or weather, is most often crisp and cool, but honestly I never think of "fresh air" or "fresh wind" as primarily "cool", I always think of them as primarily "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc., all suggestive of newness, being untainted, not having deteriorated, as more primary non-fresh items such as fish and meat usually are).  So if we were to use one word for two meanings, I would suggest that we be
                                careful as to whether it would have a primary meaning of "cool", or whether this meaning would be a secondary development of "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.).  If it had a primary meaning of "(crisply) cool", I think we'd need a separate word for that, whereas if the meaning "(crisply) cool" was a secondary interpretation of a more fundamental meaning "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.), then I might be more supportive of the idea of having a single word for all the meanings of English <fresh> or German <frisch>.  I hope what I'm saying is clear.

                                Andrew

                                --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...> wrote:

                                From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...>
                                Subject: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                                Received: Monday, January 18, 2010, 12:48 PM







                                 









                                Andrew,



                                adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.



                                Stephan



                                ____________ _________ _________ __

                                Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@yahoo. ca>

                                An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                                Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr

                                Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?



                                >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be

                                the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,

                                then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep

                                "frisch" (for both meanings).



                                >Stephan



                                That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ). I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply

                                cool" in English (at least where I live).



                                Andrew



                                --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:



                                >



                                > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.



                                >



                                > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,

                                airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young



                                >



                                > adv. = freshly, newly, recently



                                >



                                >



                                >



                                > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be for the vowel.



                                > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that

                                consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.



                                >



                                > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.



                                > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.



                                > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.



                                > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)



                                > EN just has fresh.



                                >



                                > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from

                                language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV

                                färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist

                                that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all

                                translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.



                                >



                                > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and

                                Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.

                                (related by way of PIE)



                                >



                                > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.



                                > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a

                                huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning

                                between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to

                                link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like

                                ENglish or German and only have a single word.



                                >



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                              • Stephan Schneider
                                Andrew, you say that, if I prefer a one-word-solution, I should define, which meaning is the primary meaning, and which meaning is derived from it. It looks to
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 19, 2010
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                                  Andrew,

                                  you say that, if I prefer a one-word-solution, I should define, which meaning is the primary meaning, and which meaning is derived from it.
                                  It looks to me that the idea of "cool" came after "unchanged". This is what Kluge suggests (but we cannot say for certain).
                                  My personal understanding is this: when I open the window and let in fresh air, the air is fresh (not consumed) and fresh (not heated up to room temperature). In both cases "fresh" means "unchanged", "in it's original state", hence the conotation "cool". I hope I understood you better now?

                                  quoted from Kluge:
                                  frisch Adj std. (11. Jh.), mhd, vrisch, ahd. frisc, mndd. versch, vers, varsch, mndl. versch. Aus wg. *friska- Adj. "frisch", auch in ae. fersc, afr. fersk. Außergermanisch keine sichere Entsprechung. Offenbar auf (ig.) *preska- gehen zurück lit. preskas "süß, ungesäuert, frisch, fade", russ. presnyj "ungesäuert, süß, fade". Aber wie ist das vom Germanischen vorausgesetzte -i- zu vermiteln? Nach Mentz als "dem Ursprung nach" zu l. priscus und vielleicht weiter zu den genannten baltisch-slavischen Wörtern. - Präfixableitung: erfrischen; Partikelableitung: auffrischen; -frisch ist in der modernen Sprache ein Halbsuffix (besonderes in der Werbesprache).
                                  Ebenso nndl. vers, ne. fresh; -> Fresko, -> Frischling, -> Sommerfrische. - Mentz, F. ZVS 65 (1938), 263-265; Heidermanns (1993), 216 f.

                                  Regards,
                                  Stephan



                                  ________________________________
                                  Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...>
                                  An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                                  Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 20. Januar 2010, 7:38:58 Uhr
                                  Betreff: Re: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?


                                  Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two separated meanings. But you say that we should first try having one word for all of the meanings, as in German and English. Note that I explained that in English (at least as I know it and speak it) <fresh> doesn't really mean 'crisply cool' when referring to weather phenomena, it really means 'not stale' - i.e. new air, air that has not been stagnant (as it usually is when indoors and as it often is when it is hot or humid). Such air, or weather, is most often crisp and cool, but honestly I never think of "fresh air" or "fresh wind" as primarily "cool", I always think of them as primarily "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc., all suggestive of newness, being untainted, not having deteriorated, as more primary non-fresh items such as fish and meat usually are). So if we were to use one word for two meanings, I would suggest that we be
                                  careful as to whether it would have a primary meaning of "cool", or whether this meaning would be a secondary development of "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.). If it had a primary meaning of "(crisply) cool", I think we'd need a separate word for that, whereas if the meaning "(crisply) cool" was a secondary interpretation of a more fundamental meaning "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.), then I might be more supportive of the idea of having a single word for all the meanings of English <fresh> or German <frisch>. I hope what I'm saying is clear.

                                  Andrew

                                  --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de> wrote:

                                  From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de>
                                  Subject: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                  To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Received: Monday, January 18, 2010, 12:48 PM



                                  Andrew,

                                  adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.

                                  Stephan

                                  ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ yahoo. ca>

                                  An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                                  Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr

                                  Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?

                                  >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be

                                  the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,

                                  then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep

                                  "frisch" (for both meanings).

                                  >Stephan

                                  That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ). I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply

                                  cool" in English (at least where I live).

                                  Andrew

                                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:

                                  >

                                  > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.

                                  >

                                  > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,

                                  airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young

                                  >

                                  > adv. = freshly, newly, recently

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be for the vowel.

                                  > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that

                                  consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.

                                  >

                                  > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.

                                  > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers..

                                  > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.

                                  > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)

                                  > EN just has fresh.

                                  >

                                  > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from

                                  language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV

                                  färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist

                                  that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all

                                  translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.

                                  >

                                  > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and

                                  Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.

                                  (related by way of PIE)

                                  >

                                  > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.

                                  > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a

                                  huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning

                                  between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to

                                  link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like

                                  ENglish or German and only have a single word.

                                  >

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                                • David Parke
                                  My main objection splitting into 2 words is this: Dutch vers isn t the exact unambiguous equivalent to Scandy fersk/färsk Dutch fris isn t the exact
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 20, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    My main objection splitting into 2 words is this:
                                    Dutch vers isn't the exact unambiguous equivalent to Scandy fersk/färsk
                                    Dutch fris isn't the exact unambiguous equivalent to Scandy frisk
                                    Dutch vers isn't exactly not equivalent to Scandy frisk.

                                    The concepts might be split over 2 words in Dutch and Scandy, but the
                                    form of the split isn't exactly the same.
                                    So if we had had 2 words for FS, how would we decide where to split the
                                    meanings? We don't have an indisputable example to follow with Dutch and
                                    Scandy. So the spit we make would be arbitrary and whimsical.

                                    But NL fris+vers is probably still a reasonable approximation of SV
                                    färsk+frisk+fräsch.
                                    Or NL fris+vers is probably a reasonable approximation of EN fresh or DE
                                    frisch. The two Dutch words together encompass a range of meaning
                                    similar to the single German word or English word.

                                    I think it'd be better to lump all the meanings into a single word. But
                                    we should acknowledge that in any particular language the word(s) have
                                    subtly different meanings, or preferred meanings or usages or contexts.
                                    This is the situation with any group of cognates. Assuming that
                                    fresh=frisch=frisk=vers=vars=fersk=fris=frais
                                    can be convenient. This sort of assumption is how we expect FS to be
                                    easy to learn and allow for instant at-sight comprehension. It is also a
                                    lazy and naive assumption which can get you into trouble. At-sight
                                    comprehension should only take you so far. Eventually you need to
                                    consult a dictionary and learn a language properly.

                                    The meaning that I suggest for *fresch would be all meanings that are
                                    used by 3 or more of the source language units. The preferred/primary
                                    meanings should be those shared by ALL or the most source language units.

                                    In my Frenkisch word "fresch", these are the meanings based on the above
                                    criteria:
                                    a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen, airy,
                                    chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                                    adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                                    a. = frisch; neu; unberührt; kühl; grün
                                    прил. = бодрый; здоровый; недавний; неиспорченный; новый; свежий;
                                    чистый; ядреный; прохладный; живой; другой; молодой; невозмутимый;
                                    холодный; незрелый; неопытный; сырой; зеленый; неспелый
                                    нареч. = бодро; заново; недавно; свежо; только что; вновь

                                    I've arrived at that by consulting many many translation dictionaries
                                    from the various source languages into English. I come up with a list of
                                    English synonyms of meanings for each of the source languages. I count
                                    synonyms and any that were shared across 3+ source languages are in the
                                    definition above. Note that for Frenkisch, FR frais and RU presnyj were
                                    included.
                                    I repeated the same procedure also translating into German. The Russian
                                    definition is based on the shared translations of the EN and DE
                                    definitions above.

                                    Some of the words in the definition might seem a little odd. Green and
                                    wet seem strange to an English speaker. But I think that they are in the
                                    context of wood.
                                    "Fresch timmer is swar to brenne ond kanne byge ferr befor breke"

                                    Andrew Jarrette wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two
                                    > separated meanings. But you say that we should first try having one
                                    > word for all of the meanings, as in German and English. Note that I
                                    > explained that in English (at least as I know it and speak it) <fresh>
                                    > doesn't really mean 'crisply cool' when referring to weather
                                    > phenomena, it really means 'not stale' - i.e. new air, air that has
                                    > not been stagnant (as it usually is when indoors and as it often is
                                    > when it is hot or humid). Such air, or weather, is most often crisp
                                    > and cool, but honestly I never think of "fresh air" or "fresh wind" as
                                    > primarily "cool", I always think of them as primarily "not stale, not
                                    > stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc., all
                                    > suggestive of newness, being untainted, not having deteriorated, as
                                    > more primary non-fresh items such as fish and meat usually are). So if
                                    > we were to use one word for two meanings, I would suggest that we be
                                    > careful as to whether it would have a primary meaning of "cool", or
                                    > whether this meaning would be a secondary development of "not stale,
                                    > not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy",
                                    > etc.). If it had a primary meaning of "(crisply) cool", I think we'd
                                    > need a separate word for that, whereas if the meaning "(crisply) cool"
                                    > was a secondary interpretation of a more fundamental meaning "not
                                    > stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not
                                    > stuffy", etc.), then I might be more supportive of the idea of having
                                    > a single word for all the meanings of English <fresh> or German
                                    > <frisch>. I hope what I'm saying is clear.
                                    >
                                    > Andrew
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...
                                    > <mailto:stefichjo%40yahoo.de>> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@... <mailto:stefichjo%40yahoo.de>>
                                    > Subject: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                    > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Received: Monday, January 18, 2010, 12:48 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Andrew,
                                    >
                                    > adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no
                                    > harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.
                                    >
                                    > Stephan
                                    >
                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    >
                                    > Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@yahoo. ca>
                                    >
                                    > An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                    >
                                    > Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr
                                    >
                                    > Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                    >
                                    > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                                    >
                                    > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                                    >
                                    > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                                    >
                                    > "frisch" (for both meanings).
                                    >
                                    > >Stephan
                                    >
                                    > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably
                                    > originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so
                                    > Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand
                                    > into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English
                                    > <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning
                                    > ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting
                                    > <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply
                                    > cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English
                                    > <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc
                                    > > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE
                                    > <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE
                                    > <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ).
                                    > I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the
                                    > French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                                    >
                                    > cool" in English (at least where I live).
                                    >
                                    > Andrew
                                    >
                                    > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                                    >
                                    > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be
                                    > for the vowel.
                                    >
                                    > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                                    >
                                    > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                                    >
                                    > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers.
                                    >
                                    > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                                    >
                                    > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                                    >
                                    > > EN just has fresh.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                                    >
                                    > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                                    >
                                    > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                                    >
                                    > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
                                    >
                                    > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                                    >
                                    > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                                    >
                                    > (related by way of PIE)
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                                    >
                                    > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                                    >
                                    > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                                    >
                                    > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                                    >
                                    > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
                                    >
                                    > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
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                                  • Andrew Jarrette
                                    Kluge says that Germanic *friskaz comes from PIE *priskos, var. *proiskos, frisch, nicht durch Gärung sauer geworden .  I think it first referred to the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 20, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Kluge says that Germanic *friskaz comes from PIE *priskos, var. *proiskos, "frisch, nicht durch Gärung sauer geworden".  I think it first referred to the freshness of milk (not yet sour) and the idea of "not become sour" developed into "unfermented, unleavened" (of bread) in Slavic, while in Germanic the idea shifted to "not spoiled" and therefore was applied to meat and fish in addition to milk (just my hypothesis).  Lithuanian <préskas> "ungesäuert" he says is a borrowing from Slavic, where PIE *oi regularly became *ê (long e) which was borrowed into Lithuanian as é (OCSlavonic <prêsnù>(<ù> = short u) "frisch, ungesäuert").  So the original was not *preskos, and the original meaning perhaps referred to the freshness of milk.

                                      What you say about "unchanged, in its original state", may also be true as the original meaning, but given the preponderance of usages with food and drink in both early Germanic and Slavic, I would wager that "ungesäuert" was the original meaning, and that "noch nicht abgenutzt" developed out of that (because unsoured milk was in an early state, and unconsumed items are also in an early state).  However, on second thought, *priskos is probably related to *pr-, *pro-, *pri- meaning "first, early" (Latin <primus>, and also <priscus> "old, ancient", also the root of English <first>, Swedish <första>, Old English <forma> "first" and <fruma> "original", with cognates in other Germanic languages), so you may be quite right about the original meaning being "in its original state".  So I may have to retract the idea of its original usage referring to food and drink being unsoured.  Nevertheless, I still feel that in English the dominant sense is "not
                                      spoiled" ("unverdorben"), and that's kind of what I understand about "fresh air" (as I explained it previously).

                                      It seems that two of us (you, David) prefer one word encompassing all the meanings of <frisch>, while Ingmar I'm not sure of.  So far, I'm outnumbered, so if one word is preferred, I won't complain anymore.  I would vote for <frisch> (because I'm a purist at heart), but I recognize what David pointed out, that the majority of Germanic languages (and non-Germanic languages) have <e> or a symbol which means /e/ (<ä>), so if that's what's decided on, I have no complaint.

                                      Andrew

                                      --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...> wrote:

                                      From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...>
                                      Subject: AW: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                      To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                                      Received: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 2:22 AM







                                       









                                      Andrew,



                                      you say that, if I prefer a one-word-solution, I should define, which meaning is the primary meaning, and which meaning is derived from it.

                                      It looks to me that the idea of "cool" came after "unchanged". This is what Kluge suggests (but we cannot say for certain).

                                      My personal understanding is this: when I open the window and let in fresh air, the air is fresh (not consumed) and fresh (not heated up to room temperature) . In both cases "fresh" means "unchanged", "in it's original state", hence the conotation "cool". I hope I understood you better now?



                                      quoted from Kluge:

                                      frisch Adj std. (11. Jh.), mhd, vrisch, ahd. frisc, mndd. versch, vers, varsch, mndl. versch. Aus wg. *friska- Adj. "frisch", auch in ae. fersc, afr. fersk. Außergermanisch keine sichere Entsprechung. Offenbar auf (ig..) *preska- gehen zurück lit. preskas "süß, ungesäuert, frisch, fade", russ. presnyj "ungesäuert, süß, fade". Aber wie ist das vom Germanischen vorausgesetzte -i- zu vermiteln? Nach Mentz als "dem Ursprung nach" zu l. priscus und vielleicht weiter zu den genannten baltisch-slavischen Wörtern. - Präfixableitung: erfrischen; Partikelableitung: auffrischen; -frisch ist in der modernen Sprache ein Halbsuffix (besonderes in der Werbesprache) .

                                      Ebenso nndl. vers, ne. fresh; -> Fresko, -> Frischling, -> Sommerfrische.. - Mentz, F. ZVS 65 (1938), 263-265; Heidermanns (1993), 216 f.



                                      Regards,

                                      Stephan



                                      ____________ _________ _________ __

                                      Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@yahoo. ca>

                                      An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                                      Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 20. Januar 2010, 7:38:58 Uhr

                                      Betreff: Re: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?



                                      Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two separated meanings. But you say that we should first try having one word for all of the meanings, as in German and English. Note that I explained that in English (at least as I know it and speak it) <fresh> doesn't really mean 'crisply cool' when referring to weather phenomena, it really means 'not stale' - i.e. new air, air that has not been stagnant (as it usually is when indoors and as it often is when it is hot or humid). Such air, or weather, is most often crisp and cool, but honestly I never think of "fresh air" or "fresh wind" as primarily "cool", I always think of them as primarily "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc., all suggestive of newness, being untainted, not having deteriorated, as more primary non-fresh items such as fish and meat usually are). So if we were to use one word for two meanings, I would suggest that we be

                                      careful as to whether it would have a primary meaning of "cool", or whether this meaning would be a secondary development of "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.). If it had a primary meaning of "(crisply) cool", I think we'd need a separate word for that, whereas if the meaning "(crisply) cool" was a secondary interpretation of a more fundamental meaning "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.), then I might be more supportive of the idea of having a single word for all the meanings of English <fresh> or German <frisch>. I hope what I'm saying is clear.



                                      Andrew



                                      --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de> wrote:



                                      From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de>

                                      Subject: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?

                                      To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                                      Received: Monday, January 18, 2010, 12:48 PM



                                      Andrew,



                                      adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.



                                      Stephan



                                      ____________ _________ _________ __



                                      Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ yahoo. ca>



                                      An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com



                                      Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr



                                      Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?



                                      >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be



                                      the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,



                                      then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep



                                      "frisch" (for both meanings).



                                      >Stephan



                                      That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ). I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply



                                      cool" in English (at least where I live).



                                      Andrew



                                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:



                                      >



                                      > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.



                                      >



                                      > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,



                                      airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young



                                      >



                                      > adv. = freshly, newly, recently



                                      >



                                      >



                                      >



                                      > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be for the vowel.



                                      > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that



                                      consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.



                                      >



                                      > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.



                                      > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers..



                                      > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.



                                      > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)



                                      > EN just has fresh.



                                      >



                                      > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from



                                      language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV



                                      färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist



                                      that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all



                                      translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.



                                      >



                                      > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and



                                      Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.



                                      (related by way of PIE)



                                      >



                                      > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.



                                      > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a



                                      huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning



                                      between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to



                                      link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like



                                      ENglish or German and only have a single word.



                                      >



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                                    • David
                                      I am currently using *fresch with an e. It s my preference by a tiny margin. But I am not totally attached to it, and would be prepared to use *frisch instead.
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 20, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I am currently using *fresch with an e. It's my preference by a tiny margin. But I am not totally attached to it, and would be prepared to use *frisch instead.
                                        As far as the metathesis of the consonants is concerned, even if we decide on a "e" vowel we had better stick with *fresch instead of *fersch. I think that *fersch is too many steps removed from German frisch. BOTH a different vowel and a different order of letters.

                                        I was looking last night at Google Translate and it seems that *frisk is a very widely traveled Germanic root. I also found Estonian värske and Albanian freskët, Greek fréskos, Hungarian friss, Filipino presko.

                                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Kluge says that Germanic *friskaz comes from PIE *priskos, var. *proiskos, "frisch, nicht durch Gärung sauer geworden".  I think it first referred to the freshness of milk (not yet sour) and the idea of "not become sour" developed into "unfermented, unleavened" (of bread) in Slavic, while in Germanic the idea shifted to "not spoiled" and therefore was applied to meat and fish in addition to milk (just my hypothesis).  Lithuanian <préskas> "ungesäuert" he says is a borrowing from Slavic, where PIE *oi regularly became *ê (long e) which was borrowed into Lithuanian as é (OCSlavonic <prêsnù>(<ù> = short u) "frisch, ungesäuert").  So the original was not *preskos, and the original meaning perhaps referred to the freshness of milk.
                                        >
                                        > What you say about "unchanged, in its original state", may also be true as the original meaning, but given the preponderance of usages with food and drink in both early Germanic and Slavic, I would wager that "ungesäuert" was the original meaning, and that "noch nicht abgenutzt" developed out of that (because unsoured milk was in an early state, and unconsumed items are also in an early state).  However, on second thought, *priskos is probably related to *pr-, *pro-, *pri- meaning "first, early" (Latin <primus>, and also <priscus> "old, ancient", also the root of English <first>, Swedish <första>, Old English <forma> "first" and <fruma> "original", with cognates in other Germanic languages), so you may be quite right about the original meaning being "in its original state".  So I may have to retract the idea of its original usage referring to food and drink being unsoured.  Nevertheless, I still feel that in English the dominant sense is "not
                                        > spoiled" ("unverdorben"), and that's kind of what I understand about "fresh air" (as I explained it previously).
                                        >
                                        > It seems that two of us (you, David) prefer one word encompassing all the meanings of <frisch>, while Ingmar I'm not sure of.  So far, I'm outnumbered, so if one word is preferred, I won't complain anymore.  I would vote for <frisch> (because I'm a purist at heart), but I recognize what David pointed out, that the majority of Germanic languages (and non-Germanic languages) have <e> or a symbol which means /e/ (<ä>), so if that's what's decided on, I have no complaint.
                                        >
                                        > Andrew
                                        >
                                        > --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...>
                                        > Subject: AW: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                        > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Received: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 2:22 AM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Andrew,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > you say that, if I prefer a one-word-solution, I should define, which meaning is the primary meaning, and which meaning is derived from it.
                                        >
                                        > It looks to me that the idea of "cool" came after "unchanged". This is what Kluge suggests (but we cannot say for certain).
                                        >
                                        > My personal understanding is this: when I open the window and let in fresh air, the air is fresh (not consumed) and fresh (not heated up to room temperature) . In both cases "fresh" means "unchanged", "in it's original state", hence the conotation "cool". I hope I understood you better now?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > quoted from Kluge:
                                        >
                                        > frisch Adj std. (11. Jh.), mhd, vrisch, ahd. frisc, mndd. versch, vers, varsch, mndl. versch. Aus wg. *friska- Adj. "frisch", auch in ae. fersc, afr. fersk. Außergermanisch keine sichere Entsprechung. Offenbar auf (ig..) *preska- gehen zurück lit. preskas "süß, ungesäuert, frisch, fade", russ. presnyj "ungesäuert, süß, fade". Aber wie ist das vom Germanischen vorausgesetzte -i- zu vermiteln? Nach Mentz als "dem Ursprung nach" zu l. priscus und vielleicht weiter zu den genannten baltisch-slavischen Wörtern. - Präfixableitung: erfrischen; Partikelableitung: auffrischen; -frisch ist in der modernen Sprache ein Halbsuffix (besonderes in der Werbesprache) .
                                        >
                                        > Ebenso nndl. vers, ne. fresh; -> Fresko, -> Frischling, -> Sommerfrische.. - Mentz, F. ZVS 65 (1938), 263-265; Heidermanns (1993), 216 f.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        > Stephan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                        >
                                        > Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@yahoo. ca>
                                        >
                                        > An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                        >
                                        > Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 20. Januar 2010, 7:38:58 Uhr
                                        >
                                        > Betreff: Re: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two separated meanings. But you say that we should first try having one word for all of the meanings, as in German and English. Note that I explained that in English (at least as I know it and speak it) <fresh> doesn't really mean 'crisply cool' when referring to weather phenomena, it really means 'not stale' - i.e. new air, air that has not been stagnant (as it usually is when indoors and as it often is when it is hot or humid). Such air, or weather, is most often crisp and cool, but honestly I never think of "fresh air" or "fresh wind" as primarily "cool", I always think of them as primarily "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc., all suggestive of newness, being untainted, not having deteriorated, as more primary non-fresh items such as fish and meat usually are). So if we were to use one word for two meanings, I would suggest that we be
                                        >
                                        > careful as to whether it would have a primary meaning of "cool", or whether this meaning would be a secondary development of "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.). If it had a primary meaning of "(crisply) cool", I think we'd need a separate word for that, whereas if the meaning "(crisply) cool" was a secondary interpretation of a more fundamental meaning "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.), then I might be more supportive of the idea of having a single word for all the meanings of English <fresh> or German <frisch>. I hope what I'm saying is clear.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Andrew
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de>
                                        >
                                        > Subject: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                        >
                                        > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                        >
                                        > Received: Monday, January 18, 2010, 12:48 PM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Andrew,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Stephan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ yahoo. ca>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "frisch" (for both meanings).
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >Stephan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ). I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > cool" in English (at least where I live).
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Andrew
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be for the vowel.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers..
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > EN just has fresh.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > (related by way of PIE)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                                      • chamavian
                                        I prefer frisch in both cases.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 20, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I prefer "frisch" in both cases.


                                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Kluge says that Germanic *friskaz comes from PIE *priskos, var. *proiskos, "frisch, nicht durch Gärung sauer geworden".  I think it first referred to the freshness of milk (not yet sour) and the idea of "not become sour" developed into "unfermented, unleavened" (of bread) in Slavic, while in Germanic the idea shifted to "not spoiled" and therefore was applied to meat and fish in addition to milk (just my hypothesis).  Lithuanian <préskas> "ungesäuert" he says is a borrowing from Slavic, where PIE *oi regularly became *ê (long e) which was borrowed into Lithuanian as é (OCSlavonic <prêsnù>(<ù> = short u) "frisch, ungesäuert").  So the original was not *preskos, and the original meaning perhaps referred to the freshness of milk.
                                          >
                                          > What you say about "unchanged, in its original state", may also be true as the original meaning, but given the preponderance of usages with food and drink in both early Germanic and Slavic, I would wager that "ungesäuert" was the original meaning, and that "noch nicht abgenutzt" developed out of that (because unsoured milk was in an early state, and unconsumed items are also in an early state).  However, on second thought, *priskos is probably related to *pr-, *pro-, *pri- meaning "first, early" (Latin <primus>, and also <priscus> "old, ancient", also the root of English <first>, Swedish <första>, Old English <forma> "first" and <fruma> "original", with cognates in other Germanic languages), so you may be quite right about the original meaning being "in its original state".  So I may have to retract the idea of its original usage referring to food and drink being unsoured.  Nevertheless, I still feel that in English the dominant sense is "not
                                          > spoiled" ("unverdorben"), and that's kind of what I understand about "fresh air" (as I explained it previously).
                                          >
                                          > It seems that two of us (you, David) prefer one word encompassing all the meanings of <frisch>, while Ingmar I'm not sure of.  So far, I'm outnumbered, so if one word is preferred, I won't complain anymore.  I would vote for <frisch> (because I'm a purist at heart), but I recognize what David pointed out, that the majority of Germanic languages (and non-Germanic languages) have <e> or a symbol which means /e/ (<ä>), so if that's what's decided on, I have no complaint.
                                          >
                                          > Andrew
                                          >
                                          > --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...>
                                          > Subject: AW: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                          > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Received: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 2:22 AM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Andrew,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > you say that, if I prefer a one-word-solution, I should define, which meaning is the primary meaning, and which meaning is derived from it.
                                          >
                                          > It looks to me that the idea of "cool" came after "unchanged". This is what Kluge suggests (but we cannot say for certain).
                                          >
                                          > My personal understanding is this: when I open the window and let in fresh air, the air is fresh (not consumed) and fresh (not heated up to room temperature) . In both cases "fresh" means "unchanged", "in it's original state", hence the conotation "cool". I hope I understood you better now?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > quoted from Kluge:
                                          >
                                          > frisch Adj std. (11. Jh.), mhd, vrisch, ahd. frisc, mndd. versch, vers, varsch, mndl. versch. Aus wg. *friska- Adj. "frisch", auch in ae. fersc, afr. fersk. Außergermanisch keine sichere Entsprechung. Offenbar auf (ig..) *preska- gehen zurück lit. preskas "süß, ungesäuert, frisch, fade", russ. presnyj "ungesäuert, süß, fade". Aber wie ist das vom Germanischen vorausgesetzte -i- zu vermiteln? Nach Mentz als "dem Ursprung nach" zu l. priscus und vielleicht weiter zu den genannten baltisch-slavischen Wörtern. - Präfixableitung: erfrischen; Partikelableitung: auffrischen; -frisch ist in der modernen Sprache ein Halbsuffix (besonderes in der Werbesprache) .
                                          >
                                          > Ebenso nndl. vers, ne. fresh; -> Fresko, -> Frischling, -> Sommerfrische.. - Mentz, F. ZVS 65 (1938), 263-265; Heidermanns (1993), 216 f.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Stephan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                          >
                                          > Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@yahoo. ca>
                                          >
                                          > An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                          >
                                          > Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 20. Januar 2010, 7:38:58 Uhr
                                          >
                                          > Betreff: Re: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for the support for my idea of having two words with two separated meanings. But you say that we should first try having one word for all of the meanings, as in German and English. Note that I explained that in English (at least as I know it and speak it) <fresh> doesn't really mean 'crisply cool' when referring to weather phenomena, it really means 'not stale' - i.e. new air, air that has not been stagnant (as it usually is when indoors and as it often is when it is hot or humid). Such air, or weather, is most often crisp and cool, but honestly I never think of "fresh air" or "fresh wind" as primarily "cool", I always think of them as primarily "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc., all suggestive of newness, being untainted, not having deteriorated, as more primary non-fresh items such as fish and meat usually are). So if we were to use one word for two meanings, I would suggest that we be
                                          >
                                          > careful as to whether it would have a primary meaning of "cool", or whether this meaning would be a secondary development of "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.). If it had a primary meaning of "(crisply) cool", I think we'd need a separate word for that, whereas if the meaning "(crisply) cool" was a secondary interpretation of a more fundamental meaning "not stale, not stagnant" (or "not polluted" or "not dusty" or "not stuffy", etc.), then I might be more supportive of the idea of having a single word for all the meanings of English <fresh> or German <frisch>. I hope what I'm saying is clear.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Andrew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@yahoo. de>
                                          >
                                          > Subject: AW: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                          >
                                          > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                          >
                                          > Received: Monday, January 18, 2010, 12:48 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Andrew,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > adding a French loan is a good alternative, I think. (It would do no harm.) I would try using the Germanic borrowing for both meanings though.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Stephan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Von: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@ yahoo. ca>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Gesendet: Freitag, den 15. Januar 2010, 22:26:22 Uhr
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: fresch or frisch?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >The WG / PG stem is indicated as frisk-, therefore "frisch" would be
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > the first choice. If a >majority of languages tend to E for the vowel,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > then it should be "fresch". Since it seems to >be 50/50, let's keep
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > "frisch" (for both meanings).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >Stephan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > That's right, it's from Germanic *frisk-, which I think probably originally meant "unsalted" (fish, meat) or "not salty" (water) -- so Old English <fersc>. It's easy to see how such a meaning could expand into the present main sense of German <frisch>, Dutch <vers>, English <fresh>. I would suggest keeping <frisch> for the primary meaning ('not preserved, not decomposed, not stale', etc.) while adopting <fress> or <fresch> from French <frais> for the meaning "crisply cool". The French word is a borrowing from Germanic; some say English <fresh> may be borrowed from Old French, however the metathesis *fersc > *fresc is a normal Middle English development (cf. <grass> from OE <gærs>, <cress> from OE <cerse>, and Middle English <bresten> from OE <berstan> (but Modern English <burst>, an alternative development) ). I would say the English word may have some meanings influenced by the French word, but I think it is little used in the meaning "crisply
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > cool" in English (at least where I live).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Andrew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > For a word meaning something like EN fresh.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > a. = fresh, recent, sweet, chilly, cool, brisk, new, green, keen,
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                                          > airy, chill, healthy, clean, crisp, new-laid, vigorous, wet, young
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                                          > >
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                                          > > adv. = freshly, newly, recently
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                                          > > It's not obvious to me what the majority or consensus form would be for the vowel.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > For that matter, it's not totally obvious what order that
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > consonants go in. In some languages, there is metathesis of the r.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Some langs have more than one cognate word for this.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > eg NL has BOTH fris and vers..
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > SV has färsk, fräsch and frisk. DA and NO have BOTH fersk and frisk.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > DE just has frisch (unless frech is related)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > EN just has fresh.
                                          >
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                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > The exact meanings. senses and usages are subtly different from
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > language to language. Also in the case of NL fris/vers and SV
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > färsk/frisk, DA fersk/frisk speakers of those languages would insist
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > that the 2 words have different meanings -- even though they would all
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          > translate to just EN fresh or just DE frisch.
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Also there are Romance cognates such as FR frais/fraiche and
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          > Ital/Sp/Port fresco (borrowed from Germanic). And Russian presnyj.
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                                          > (related by way of PIE)
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                                          > > My preference is for "FRESCH" with an E.
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                                          > > You could have both, (2 words instead of 1), but that raises a
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > huge can of worms of what would be the exact difference in meaning
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          > between *frisch and *fresch and how would you decide which meanings to
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > link to which word and which would be overlapping. Easier to be like
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                                          > ENglish or German and only have a single word.
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                                          > >
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                                        • chamavian
                                          I assume that Greek fréskos and Albanian freskët are from Italian, Filipino presko from Spanish and Hungarian friss from German. But Estonian värske with V?
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 21, 2010
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                                            I assume that Greek fréskos and Albanian freskët are from Italian, Filipino presko from Spanish and Hungarian friss from German.
                                            But Estonian värske with V? Well, the only possibility would be from Low Saxon (=Low German), which had v- for f- in many cases, and methatesis, both like Dutch versch (now: vers).

                                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:

                                            > I was looking last night at Google Translate and it seems that *frisk is a very widely traveled Germanic root. I also found Estonian värske and Albanian freskët, Greek fréskos, Hungarian friss, Filipino presko.
                                            >
                                          • David
                                            It seems Estonian consonant phonology has no [f] sound. [f] is only used in recent foreign loans. Värske wouldn t be recent. It s possible that it s from
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 21, 2010
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                                              It seems Estonian consonant phonology has no [f] sound. [f] is only used in recent foreign loans. Värske wouldn't be recent. It's possible that it's from Scandy fersk and the "f" was mapped to the nearest native phoneme. Or like you say, the Low German that it borrowed from might have been using [v] like Dutch.

                                              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I assume that Greek fréskos and Albanian freskët are from Italian, Filipino presko from Spanish and Hungarian friss from German.
                                              > But Estonian värske with V? Well, the only possibility would be from Low Saxon (=Low German), which had v- for f- in many cases, and methatesis, both like Dutch versch (now: vers).
                                              >
                                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > I was looking last night at Google Translate and it seems that *frisk is a very widely traveled Germanic root. I also found Estonian värske and Albanian freskët, Greek fréskos, Hungarian friss, Filipino presko.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • chamavian
                                              Yes... Nowadays all Low German varieties in Germany have [f] like German, where Dutch has v-. The orthography of German in words like Vater, vier, vor, von,
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 22, 2010
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                                                Yes...

                                                Nowadays all Low German varieties in Germany have [f] like German, where Dutch has v-.
                                                The orthography of German in words like Vater, vier, vor, von, ver- etc. shows that there must have been a different pronunciation than just [f] in the past.

                                                Also one could say that the Dutch system is congruent, having

                                                Germanic s => z
                                                Germanic f => v
                                                Germanic th => dh => d

                                                whereas German and Low German have only s => z and th => d (through dh), but f = f.

                                                My guess is that German and Low German once had f => v too, but that this development was reversed again later. Maybe when German w was changed towards [v], it came to close to the prono of v?
                                                And in Dutch, w and v are pronounced sufficiently different so that v could maintain its voiced character.

                                                Low German in Germany may have taken over the High German prono of v as f. In the Netherlands, Low Saxon which is actually the same language as Low German in Germany, still pronounces v as [v], not as [f].

                                                Btw many Dutch sociolects, e.g. that of Amsterdam, do have voiceless pronunciations of z and v as [s] and [f], probably due to Frisian influence. Amsterdam lies very close to the former Frisophone areas and received a lot of "immigrants" from Friesland in the last centuries.
                                                Btw this tendency towards voicelessness also effects Dutch g [G], which becomes ch [x] in many pronos.

                                                In much of the South, centre and East of the Netherlands and in Belgium, v, z and g are always pronounced as voiced consonants.

                                                Ingmar







                                                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > It seems Estonian consonant phonology has no [f] sound. [f] is only used in recent foreign loans. Värske wouldn't be recent. It's possible that it's from Scandy fersk and the "f" was mapped to the nearest native phoneme. Or like you say, the Low German that it borrowed from might have been using [v] like Dutch.
                                                >
                                                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > I assume that Greek fréskos and Albanian freskët are from Italian, Filipino presko from Spanish and Hungarian friss from German.
                                                > > But Estonian värske with V? Well, the only possibility would be from Low Saxon (=Low German), which had v- for f- in many cases, and methatesis, both like Dutch versch (now: vers).
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > I was looking last night at Google Translate and it seems that *frisk is a very widely traveled Germanic root. I also found Estonian värske and Albanian freskët, Greek fréskos, Hungarian friss, Filipino presko.
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
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