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The French G

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  • David
    I ll call this French G but that is a simplification of this phenomenon. German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 4, 2010
      I'll call this "French G" but that is a simplification of this phenomenon.
      German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound instead of the default German [g] sound. Words such as "Garage", "Genie", "Gelee", "rangieren" etc. In 90% of those cases, there is a cognate in English with the "g" having a [dZ] sound, words in Dutch where the "g" is [zj] instead of [G] and in Swedish with [sj] instead of [g] or [j]. This [Z] sound in German is not native to German and is only used in these French borrowings.
      The prono in German is quite a good predictor of how the cognate will behave in other Germlangs. It's quite uncommon to have the "g" sound as [Z] in German but NOT [zj]/[dZ]/[sj] in other Germlangs.
      They are always Romance borrowings, almost always directly from French.
      Although there are a number of exceptions. For example, "g" in English, when before a i,e or y will be [dZ] even in words that come more directly from Latin. Eg EN genitals has a [dZ] sound. In German, cognates to these words, if they are from Latin (and not particularly from French), will keep the predicatable "g" = [g] rule. So DE Genitalen has a [g] sound.
      I'd assume that the other continental Germlangs follow the German pattern. (eg most Latin borrowings have the "g" following the normal orthography rules, with a few French exceptions).

      So there is quite a significant class of words where the "g" is used but doesn't follow the predictable, standard rules of orthography.

      Only Norwegian seems to have regularized this phoneme to use to its standard othography. In NO, the cognate words often use "sj" instead. eg garasje. Or maybe not, Norsk has "geni" and "gelé" using an initial [sj] sound...

      So the question for FS is, how do we pronounce this? How do we spell it?
      Do we, for example, use the same sound as for "sch". Or something different such as [Z]?
      Do we spell it like the original French? Or make the orthography regular and change it to fit other words with the same sound. Eg, do we spell [ga"ra:S@] as "garaasche" or "garage"? Or [ga"raa:zj@] as "garazje".
    • Stephan Schneider
      garage is an interesting word. In EN, [Z] is a rare sound and [dZ] is more often, it is easier to pronounce. In German, too. Many pronounce [Z] as [dZ] in
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 7, 2010
        "garage" is an interesting word. In EN, [Z] is a rare sound and [dZ] is more often, it is easier to pronounce. In German, too. Many pronounce [Z] as [dZ] in German.
        As a sidenote, when I passed the holidays in Saxony (Germany), I heard the word "garage" pronounced with a [g], which was likely to be a joke of hypercorrectness, since Saxons do have a "French g", for instance "Jäger" is pronounced with [Z].
        Another sidenote: "garage", from "garer", which means "to shelter", *might be* cognate with "to ware", DE "wahren", according to Kluge.

        I suggest to keep the French spelling and to pronounce g as [Z], [dZ], [sj], [S] (I prefer [Z]).


        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'll call this "French G" but that is a simplification of this phenomenon.
        > German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound instead of the default German [g] sound. Words such as "Garage", "Genie", "Gelee", "rangieren" etc. In 90% of those cases, there is a cognate in English with the "g" having a [dZ] sound, words in Dutch where the "g" is [zj] instead of [G] and in Swedish with [sj] instead of [g] or [j]. This [Z] sound in German is not native to German and is only used in these French borrowings.
        > The prono in German is quite a good predictor of how the cognate will behave in other Germlangs. It's quite uncommon to have the "g" sound as [Z] in German but NOT [zj]/[dZ]/[sj] in other Germlangs.
        > They are always Romance borrowings, almost always directly from French.
        > Although there are a number of exceptions. For example, "g" in English, when before a i,e or y will be [dZ] even in words that come more directly from Latin. Eg EN genitals has a [dZ] sound. In German, cognates to these words, if they are from Latin (and not particularly from French), will keep the predicatable "g" = [g] rule. So DE Genitalen has a [g] sound.
        > I'd assume that the other continental Germlangs follow the German pattern. (eg most Latin borrowings have the "g" following the normal orthography rules, with a few French exceptions).
        >
        > So there is quite a significant class of words where the "g" is used but doesn't follow the predictable, standard rules of orthography.
        >
        > Only Norwegian seems to have regularized this phoneme to use to its standard othography. In NO, the cognate words often use "sj" instead. eg garasje. Or maybe not, Norsk has "geni" and "gelé" using an initial [sj] sound...
        >
        > So the question for FS is, how do we pronounce this? How do we spell it?
        > Do we, for example, use the same sound as for "sch". Or something different such as [Z]?
        > Do we spell it like the original French? Or make the orthography regular and change it to fit other words with the same sound. Eg, do we spell [ga"ra:S@] as "garaasche" or "garage"? Or [ga"raa:zj@] as "garazje".
        >
      • David
        My preference is for using [Z]. I started out thinking it should be [S] because I didn t want to add extra phonemes that some people might have difficulty
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 7, 2010
          My preference is for using [Z]. I started out thinking it should be [S] because I didn't want to add extra phonemes that some people might have difficulty pronouncing.
          I have gone back to [Z], because it makes the spelling system slightly more regular. If we have [S] then everytime we hear [S], we need to decide whether it must be spelled with a "sch" or a "g". It's already irregular enough when you can't see a "g" and know with certainty how to pronounce it!

          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Stephan Schneider" <stefichjo@...> wrote:
          >
          > "garage" is an interesting word. In EN, [Z] is a rare sound and [dZ] is more often, it is easier to pronounce. In German, too. Many pronounce [Z] as [dZ] in German.
          > As a sidenote, when I passed the holidays in Saxony (Germany), I heard the word "garage" pronounced with a [g], which was likely to be a joke of hypercorrectness, since Saxons do have a "French g", for instance "Jäger" is pronounced with [Z].
          > Another sidenote: "garage", from "garer", which means "to shelter", *might be* cognate with "to ware", DE "wahren", according to Kluge.
          >
          > I suggest to keep the French spelling and to pronounce g as [Z], [dZ], [sj], [S] (I prefer [Z]).
          >
          >
          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I'll call this "French G" but that is a simplification of this phenomenon.
          > > German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound instead of the default German [g] sound. Words such as "Garage", "Genie", "Gelee", "rangieren" etc. In 90% of those cases, there is a cognate in English with the "g" having a [dZ] sound, words in Dutch where the "g" is [zj] instead of [G] and in Swedish with [sj] instead of [g] or [j]. This [Z] sound in German is not native to German and is only used in these French borrowings.
          > > The prono in German is quite a good predictor of how the cognate will behave in other Germlangs. It's quite uncommon to have the "g" sound as [Z] in German but NOT [zj]/[dZ]/[sj] in other Germlangs.
          > > They are always Romance borrowings, almost always directly from French.
          > > Although there are a number of exceptions. For example, "g" in English, when before a i,e or y will be [dZ] even in words that come more directly from Latin. Eg EN genitals has a [dZ] sound. In German, cognates to these words, if they are from Latin (and not particularly from French), will keep the predicatable "g" = [g] rule. So DE Genitalen has a [g] sound.
          > > I'd assume that the other continental Germlangs follow the German pattern. (eg most Latin borrowings have the "g" following the normal orthography rules, with a few French exceptions).
          > >
          > > So there is quite a significant class of words where the "g" is used but doesn't follow the predictable, standard rules of orthography.
          > >
          > > Only Norwegian seems to have regularized this phoneme to use to its standard othography. In NO, the cognate words often use "sj" instead. eg garasje. Or maybe not, Norsk has "geni" and "gelé" using an initial [sj] sound...
          > >
          > > So the question for FS is, how do we pronounce this? How do we spell it?
          > > Do we, for example, use the same sound as for "sch". Or something different such as [Z]?
          > > Do we spell it like the original French? Or make the orthography regular and change it to fit other words with the same sound. Eg, do we spell [ga"ra:S@] as "garaasche" or "garage"? Or [ga"raa:zj@] as "garazje".
          > >
          >
        • Stephan Schneider
          Then we both prefer [Z], good! :) ________________________________ Von: David An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 7.
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 7, 2010
            Then we both prefer [Z], good! :)



            ________________________________
            Von: David <parked@...>
            An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
            Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 7. Januar 2010, 21:02:42 Uhr
            Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: The French G


            My preference is for using [Z]. I started out thinking it should be [S] because I didn't want to add extra phonemes that some people might have difficulty pronouncing.
            I have gone back to [Z], because it makes the spelling system slightly more regular. If we have [S] then everytime we hear [S], we need to decide whether it must be spelled with a "sch" or a "g". It's already irregular enough when you can't see a "g" and know with certainty how to pronounce it!

            --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "Stephan Schneider" <stefichjo@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > "garage" is an interesting word. In EN, [Z] is a rare sound and [dZ] is more often, it is easier to pronounce. In German, too. Many pronounce [Z] as [dZ] in German..
            > As a sidenote, when I passed the holidays in Saxony (Germany), I heard the word "garage" pronounced with a [g], which was likely to be a joke of hypercorrectness, since Saxons do have a "French g", for instance "Jäger" is pronounced with [Z].
            > Another sidenote: "garage", from "garer", which means "to shelter", *might be* cognate with "to ware", DE "wahren", according to Kluge.
            >
            > I suggest to keep the French spelling and to pronounce g as [Z], [dZ], [sj], [S] (I prefer [Z]).
            >
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I'll call this "French G" but that is a simplification of this phenomenon.
            > > German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound instead of the default German [g] sound. Words such as "Garage", "Genie", "Gelee", "rangieren" etc. In 90% of those cases, there is a cognate in English with the "g" having a [dZ] sound, words in Dutch where the "g" is [zj] instead of [G] and in Swedish with [sj] instead of [g] or [j]. This [Z] sound in German is not native to German and is only used in these French borrowings.
            > > The prono in German is quite a good predictor of how the cognate will behave in other Germlangs. It's quite uncommon to have the "g" sound as [Z] in German but NOT [zj]/[dZ]/[sj] in other Germlangs.
            > > They are always Romance borrowings, almost always directly from French.
            > > Although there are a number of exceptions. For example, "g" in English, when before a i,e or y will be [dZ] even in words that come more directly from Latin.. Eg EN genitals has a [dZ] sound. In German, cognates to these words, if they are from Latin (and not particularly from French), will keep the predicatable "g" = [g] rule. So DE Genitalen has a [g] sound.
            > > I'd assume that the other continental Germlangs follow the German pattern. (eg most Latin borrowings have the "g" following the normal orthography rules, with a few French exceptions).
            > >
            > > So there is quite a significant class of words where the "g" is used but doesn't follow the predictable, standard rules of orthography.
            > >
            > > Only Norwegian seems to have regularized this phoneme to use to its standard othography. In NO, the cognate words often use "sj" instead. eg garasje. Or maybe not, Norsk has "geni" and "gelé" using an initial [sj] sound...
            > >
            > > So the question for FS is, how do we pronounce this? How do we spell it?
            > > Do we, for example, use the same sound as for "sch". Or something different such as [Z]?
            > > Do we spell it like the original French? Or make the orthography regular and change it to fit other words with the same sound. Eg, do we spell [ga"ra:S@] as "garaasche" or "garage"? Or [ga"raa:zj@] as "garazje".
            > >
            >




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          • chamavian
            Me too, pronounce [Z] and spell g. Btw in Dutch garage, horloge are pronounced with [Z], but in many Dutch and Low Saxon dialects, it s [zi] instead of [Z@],
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 8, 2010
              Me too, pronounce [Z] and spell g.

              Btw in Dutch garage, horloge are pronounced with [Z], but in many Dutch and Low Saxon dialects, it's [zi] instead of [Z@], e.g. Low Saxon:

              halozie [ha"lo:zi] vs Standard Dutch horloge [hOr"lo:uZ@]
              garazie [Ga"Ra:zi] vs Standard Dutch garage [xa"ra:Z@]

              Ingmar

              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@...> wrote:
              >
              > Then we both prefer [Z], good! :)
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > Von: David <parked@...>
              > An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
              > Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 7. Januar 2010, 21:02:42 Uhr
              > Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: The French G
              >
              >
              > My preference is for using [Z]. I started out thinking it should be [S] because I didn't want to add extra phonemes that some people might have difficulty pronouncing.
              > I have gone back to [Z], because it makes the spelling system slightly more regular. If we have [S] then everytime we hear [S], we need to decide whether it must be spelled with a "sch" or a "g". It's already irregular enough when you can't see a "g" and know with certainty how to pronounce it!
              >
              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "Stephan Schneider" <stefichjo@ ..> wrote:
              > >
              > > "garage" is an interesting word. In EN, [Z] is a rare sound and [dZ] is more often, it is easier to pronounce. In German, too. Many pronounce [Z] as [dZ] in German..
              > > As a sidenote, when I passed the holidays in Saxony (Germany), I heard the word "garage" pronounced with a [g], which was likely to be a joke of hypercorrectness, since Saxons do have a "French g", for instance "Jäger" is pronounced with [Z].
              > > Another sidenote: "garage", from "garer", which means "to shelter", *might be* cognate with "to ware", DE "wahren", according to Kluge.
              > >
              > > I suggest to keep the French spelling and to pronounce g as [Z], [dZ], [sj], [S] (I prefer [Z]).
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I'll call this "French G" but that is a simplification of this phenomenon.
              > > > German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound instead of the default German [g] sound. Words such as "Garage", "Genie", "Gelee", "rangieren" etc. In 90% of those cases, there is a cognate in English with the "g" having a [dZ] sound, words in Dutch where the "g" is [zj] instead of [G] and in Swedish with [sj] instead of [g] or [j]. This [Z] sound in German is not native to German and is only used in these French borrowings.
              > > > The prono in German is quite a good predictor of how the cognate will behave in other Germlangs. It's quite uncommon to have the "g" sound as [Z] in German but NOT [zj]/[dZ]/[sj] in other Germlangs.
              > > > They are always Romance borrowings, almost always directly from French.
              > > > Although there are a number of exceptions. For example, "g" in English, when before a i,e or y will be [dZ] even in words that come more directly from Latin.. Eg EN genitals has a [dZ] sound. In German, cognates to these words, if they are from Latin (and not particularly from French), will keep the predicatable "g" = [g] rule. So DE Genitalen has a [g] sound.
              > > > I'd assume that the other continental Germlangs follow the German pattern. (eg most Latin borrowings have the "g" following the normal orthography rules, with a few French exceptions).
              > > >
              > > > So there is quite a significant class of words where the "g" is used but doesn't follow the predictable, standard rules of orthography.
              > > >
              > > > Only Norwegian seems to have regularized this phoneme to use to its standard othography. In NO, the cognate words often use "sj" instead. eg garasje. Or maybe not, Norsk has "geni" and "gelé" using an initial [sj] sound...
              > > >
              > > > So the question for FS is, how do we pronounce this? How do we spell it?
              > > > Do we, for example, use the same sound as for "sch". Or something different such as [Z]?
              > > > Do we spell it like the original French? Or make the orthography regular and change it to fit other words with the same sound. Eg, do we spell [ga"ra:S@] as "garaasche" or "garage"? Or [ga"raa:zj@] as "garazje".
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails.
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              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Stephan Schneider
              3/3 then! :) ________________________________ Von: chamavian An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com Gesendet: Freitag, den 8. Januar 2010,
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 8, 2010
                3/3 then! :)



                ________________________________
                Von: chamavian <roerd096@...>
                An: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                Gesendet: Freitag, den 8. Januar 2010, 14:56:45 Uhr
                Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: The French G


                Me too, pronounce [Z] and spell g.

                Btw in Dutch garage, horloge are pronounced with [Z], but in many Dutch and Low Saxon dialects, it's [zi] instead of [Z@], e.g. Low Saxon:

                halozie [ha"lo:zi] vs Standard Dutch horloge [hOr"lo:uZ@]
                garazie [Ga"Ra:zi] vs Standard Dutch garage [xa"ra:Z@]

                Ingmar

                --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Stephan Schneider <stefichjo@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > Then we both prefer [Z], good! :)
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > Von: David <parked@....>
                > An: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                > Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 7. Januar 2010, 21:02:42 Uhr
                > Betreff: [folkspraak] Re: The French G
                >
                >
                > My preference is for using [Z]. I started out thinking it should be [S] because I didn't want to add extra phonemes that some people might have difficulty pronouncing.
                > I have gone back to [Z], because it makes the spelling system slightly more regular. If we have [S] then everytime we hear [S], we need to decide whether it must be spelled with a "sch" or a "g". It's already irregular enough when you can't see a "g" and know with certainty how to pronounce it!
                >
                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "Stephan Schneider" <stefichjo@ ..> wrote:
                > >
                > > "garage" is an interesting word. In EN, [Z] is a rare sound and [dZ] is more often, it is easier to pronounce. In German, too. Many pronounce [Z] as [dZ] in German..
                > > As a sidenote, when I passed the holidays in Saxony (Germany), I heard the word "garage" pronounced with a [g], which was likely to be a joke of hypercorrectness, since Saxons do have a "French g", for instance "Jäger" is pronounced with [Z].
                > > Another sidenote: "garage", from "garer", which means "to shelter", *might be* cognate with "to ware", DE "wahren", according to Kluge.
                > >
                > > I suggest to keep the French spelling and to pronounce g as [Z], [dZ], [sj], [S] (I prefer [Z]).
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I'll call this "French G" but that is a simplification of this phenomenon.
                > > > German has a large number of words, including common ones that use a [Z] sound instead of the default German [g] sound. Words such as "Garage", "Genie", "Gelee", "rangieren" etc. In 90% of those cases, there is a cognate in English with the "g" having a [dZ] sound, words in Dutch where the "g" is [zj] instead of [G] and in Swedish with [sj] instead of [g] or [j]. This [Z] sound in German is not native to German and is only used in these French borrowings.
                > > > The prono in German is quite a good predictor of how the cognate will behave in other Germlangs. It's quite uncommon to have the "g" sound as [Z] in German but NOT [zj]/[dZ]/[sj] in other Germlangs..
                > > > They are always Romance borrowings, almost always directly from French.
                > > > Although there are a number of exceptions. For example, "g" in English, when before a i,e or y will be [dZ] even in words that come more directly from Latin.. Eg EN genitals has a [dZ] sound. In German, cognates to these words, if they are from Latin (and not particularly from French), will keep the predicatable "g" = [g] rule. So DE Genitalen has a [g] sound.
                > > > I'd assume that the other continental Germlangs follow the German pattern. (eg most Latin borrowings have the "g" following the normal orthography rules, with a few French exceptions).
                > > >
                > > > So there is quite a significant class of words where the "g" is used but doesn't follow the predictable, standard rules of orthography.
                > > >
                > > > Only Norwegian seems to have regularized this phoneme to use to its standard othography. In NO, the cognate words often use "sj" instead. eg garasje. Or maybe not, Norsk has "geni" and "gelé" using an initial [sj] sound....
                > > >
                > > > So the question for FS is, how do we pronounce this? How do we spell it?
                > > > Do we, for example, use the same sound as for "sch". Or something different such as [Z]?
                > > > Do we spell it like the original French? Or make the orthography regular and change it to fit other words with the same sound. Eg, do we spell [ga"ra:S@] as "garaasche" or "garage"? Or [ga"raa:zj@] as "garazje".
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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