Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

Expand Messages
  • Dante Ferry
    Thanks, David, for this alternate translation. Mula ito kay DANTE. ... From: David Parke Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations To:
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 22, 2009
      Thanks, David, for this alternate translation.

      Mula ito kay DANTE.


      --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:

      From: David Parke <parked@...>
      Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
      To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:54 AM

      Hi Dante,
      My language is called "Frenkisch" but it is not based on the Frankish
      germanic language. If anything modern Dutch is the child of the language
      spoken by the Franks who ruled France (originally Roman Gaul. In Gaul,
      they stopped speaking a germanic language and learned the local vulgar
      Latin dialect. The land that they ruled and the Romance language they
      spoke came to be named after them. In the low countries some dialects of
      the Frankisch language persisted and evolved into Dutch.

      I came to that name "frenkisch" from a variety of reasons. For one, my
      frenkisch is quite influenced by French (as are most Germanic
      languages). For another thing, it has the appearance of a typical
      "Western" language. I was aware of how the word "frank" had entered into
      many languages as a word for "westerner". So it's a "westerner language".
      Not particularly compelling reasons to name it like that but I haven't
      been able to think of a better name, and it's kind of stuck now. It
      turns out that there is a real language called frenkisch/fränkisch -- a
      dialect of German. This might be a good reason for me to change my
      language's name to something else.

      Here's an alternative version of Ave Maria in frenkisch.

      Ave Marie, foll af grace
      de Heirr is mid di,
      segend is dou twischen frauwen,
      ond segend is de frukt af dyn scheut, Jesus.
      Heilig Marie, Mouder af Godd,
      Bidd for ons sunders
      Nou ond in de tyd af onser deud.
      Amen


      Dante Ferry wrote:
      >
      > Hi David,
      >
      > Indeed your translations and explanations are helpful!
      >
      > In Germanic languages Hail Mary's, "body" and "womb" are both used. I
      > have noticed "schoot" and "lichaam". So are "gebenedeit" and
      > "gezegend" In Philippine languages, which are way different from
      > Germanic, "body", "belly" and "womb" are used depending on how exact
      > the translator want his translation to be! In Tagalog (the official
      > language of the Philippines), we use "child".
      >
      > When you say "Frenkish", do you mean you based your lexicon on the
      > Frankish Germanic language?
      >
      > Mula ito kay DANTE.
      >
      > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@...
      > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
      >
      > From: David Parke <parked@... <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
      > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
      > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:09 PM
      >
      > That Hail Mary was in my own un-titled Folkspraak dialect. In my
      > "Frenkisch" dialect, it would be as follows:
      >
      > Ave Marie, foll af genaide
      > de Heirr is mid di,
      > heiligd is dou twischen frauwen,
      > ond heiligd is de frukt af dyn lyv, Jesus.
      > Heilig Marie, Mouder af Godd,
      > Bidd for ons sunders
      > Nou ond in de oor af onser deud.
      > Amen
      >
      > Even to translate with such a short text, there are some options, as I
      > have some choices for words like "grace"
      > Frenkisch also has "grace"as a word.
      >
      > "frukt af dyn lyv" mean literally "fruit of your body", not specifically
      > womb. I've had a think about it, and thanks to you "discovered" a new
      > word for the vocabulary.
      > "scheut", n. = bosom, lap, womb.
      >
      > So optionally it could be:
      > "ond heiligd is de frukt af dyn scheut, Jesus."
      >
      > Also instead of "heiligd" for benedict-, I could used "segend".
      > "heilige" and "seg'ne" mean something quite similar.
      > "segend is dou twischen frauwen"
      >
      > I've done a Pater Nostra for frenkisch as follows:
      >
      > Onser fader, dat is in de himmel
      > Dyn nam wese heiligd
      > Dyn ryk komm
      > Dyn will geschej
      > op de erd als in de himmel
      > Gev ons dis dag onser daglik breud
      > Fergev ons onser schuld
      > So fergeve wi onser schuldigers
      > Ond ferleid ons nejt
      > Doch redd ons fra uvel
      > Fordat dyn is de ryk, de macht ond de herrlikheid in all eiwigheid
      > Amen
      >
      > Hope this is helpful,
      > David
      >
      > Dante Ferry wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi David,
      > >
      > > Thank you for responding to my query. Well, the prayers I listed down
      > > are mostly "Christian", with only the Hail Mary as decidedly Catholic.
      > > Since we call Folkspraak as Intergermanic, I guess German texts would
      > > be legitimate bases. Furthermore, I have read about different
      > > Folkspraak "dialects" - in which of them is your Hail Mary translation?
      > >
      > > It is very interesting to have common synthetic languages based on
      > > natural, related languages. I have been a member of the Lingua Franca
      > > Nova Yahoo group and I was told by the organizer that "Chabacano", a
      > > Philippine Spanish Creole language, has been one of his inspirations.
      > >
      > > I do hope I can get the other prayers in the particular dialect of
      > > Folkspraak you translated the Hail Mary - with your help! I found
      > > several versions of the Our Father in the group files.
      > >
      > > Thank you and God bless.
      > >
      > > The sentence below is Tagalog for "This is from Dante."
      > >
      > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
      > >
      > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@...
      > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
      > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
      > >
      > > From: David Parke <parked@... <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
      > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
      > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
      > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 10:29 AM
      > >
      > > Welcome Dante,
      > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
      > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
      > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
      > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
      > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
      > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
      > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
      > liturgy.
      > >
      > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
      > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
      > >
      > > Latin:
      > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
      > > /Dominus tecum,/
      > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
      > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
      > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
      > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus,/
      > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
      > > /Amen/
      > >
      > > Ave Marie, full af genade
      > > de Herr is mid di,
      > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
      > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
      > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
      > > Bidd for uss synders
      > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
      > > Amen
      > >
      > > DanteF wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
      > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
      > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
      > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
      > > > Manila, Philippines
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
      > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
      > 11/20/09 19:43:00
      > >
      > >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
      >
      >   



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David
      Kia ora, bro! I don t think I ve heard the na part of that greeting used before though. Kia ora is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 22, 2009
        Kia ora, bro!

        I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".

        Kia kaha (be strong),
        David.

        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@...> wrote:
        >
        > Kia ora na, David,
        >
        > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.
        >
        > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.
        >
        > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.
        >
        >
        > Mula ito kay DANTE.
        >
        >
        > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: David Parke <parked@...>
        > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
        > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM
        >
        > Hi Dante,
        > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.
        > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and
        > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and
        > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on
        > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world
        > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a
        > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really
        > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic
        > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you
        > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God
        > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a
        > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source
        > material, it's hard to keep neutral.
        >
        > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and
        > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to
        > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it
        > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.
        >
        > Regards,
        > David Parke
        >
        >
        > Dante Ferry wrote:
        > >
        > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who
        > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same
        > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do
        > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of
        > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will
        > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother
        > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks
        > > German (don't you think?).
        > >
        > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
        > >
        > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@...
        > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
        > >
        > > From: David Parke <parked@... <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
        > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
        > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM
        > >
        > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing
        > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a
        > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could
        > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a
        > > translation for Folkspraak either.
        > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to
        > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an
        > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with
        > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.
        > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this
        > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary
        > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.
        > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a
        > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their
        > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.
        > >
        > > Harry Baker wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we
        > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe
        > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be
        > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to
        > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal
        > > > thought.
        > > > H
        > > >
        > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: David Parke <parked@... <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
        > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
        > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06
        > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
        > > >
        > > > Welcome Dante,
        > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
        > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
        > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
        > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
        > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
        > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
        > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
        > > liturgy.
        > > >
        > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
        > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
        > > >
        > > > Latin:
        > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
        > > > /Dominus tecum,/
        > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
        > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
        > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
        > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus,/
        > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
        > > > /Amen/
        > > >
        > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
        > > > de Herr is mid di,
        > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
        > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
        > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
        > > > Bidd for uss synders
        > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
        > > > Amen
        > > >
        > > > DanteF wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
        > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
        > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
        > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
        > > > > Manila, Philippines
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
        > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
        > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
        > >
        > >   
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Dante Ferry
        Kia ora David, I think I must have incorporated our own na , a Tagalog word meaning already ! Aloha from Dante. Mula ito kay DANTE. ... From: David
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 22, 2009
          Kia ora David,

          I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!

          Aloha from Dante.

          Mula ito kay DANTE.


          --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

          From: David <parked@...>
          Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
          To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM







           









          Kia ora, bro!



          I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".



          Kia kaha (be strong),

          David.



          --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

          >

          > Kia ora na, David,

          >

          > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.

          >

          > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.

          >

          > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.

          >

          >

          > Mula ito kay DANTE.

          >

          >

          > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:

          >

          > From: David Parke <parked@...>

          > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

          > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

          > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM

          >

          > Hi Dante,

          > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.

          > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and

          > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and

          > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on

          > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world

          > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a

          > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really

          > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic

          > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you

          > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God

          > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a

          > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source

          > material, it's hard to keep neutral.

          >

          > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and

          > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to

          > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it

          > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.

          >

          > Regards,

          > David Parke

          >

          >

          > Dante Ferry wrote:

          > >

          > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who

          > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same

          > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do

          > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of

          > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will

          > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother

          > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks

          > > German (don't you think?).

          > >

          > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

          > >

          > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@...

          > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:

          > >

          > > From: David Parke <parked@... <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

          > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

          > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

          > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM

          > >

          > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing

          > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a

          > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could

          > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a

          > > translation for Folkspraak either.

          > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to

          > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an

          > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with

          > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.

          > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this

          > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary

          > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.

          > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a

          > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their

          > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.

          > >

          > > Harry Baker wrote:

          > > >

          > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we

          > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe

          > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be

          > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to

          > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal

          > > > thought.

          > > > H

          > > >

          > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!

          > > >

          > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

          > > > From: David Parke <parked@... <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>

          > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

          > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

          > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

          > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06

          > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

          > > >

          > > > Welcome Dante,

          > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be

          > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between

          > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the

          > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be

          > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the

          > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail

          > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant

          > > liturgy.

          > > >

          > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin

          > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.

          > > >

          > > > Latin:

          > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/

          > > > /Dominus tecum,/

          > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/

          > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./

          > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/

          > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /

          > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./

          > > > /Amen/

          > > >

          > > > Ave Marie, full af genade

          > > > de Herr is mid di,

          > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,

          > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.

          > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,

          > > > Bidd for uss synders

          > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.

          > > > Amen

          > > >

          > > > DanteF wrote:

          > > > >

          > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the

          > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE

          > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them

          > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,

          > > > > Manila, Philippines

          > > > >

          > > > >

          > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          > > > >

          > > > >

          > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

          > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

          > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

          > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

          > > > >

          > > > >

          > > >

          > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

          > > >

          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

          > > >

          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          > > >

          > > >

          > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          > > >

          > > >

          > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

          > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

          > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

          > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

          > > >

          > > >

          > >

          > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

          > >

          > > Yahoo! Groups Links

          > >

          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          > >

          > >

          > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          > >

          > >

          > > No virus found in this incoming message.

          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

          > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00

          > >

          > >   

          >

          >

          >

          > ------------ --------- --------- ------

          >

          > Yahoo! Groups Links

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >

























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David
          Hi Dante, In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian aloha is aroha . It means love , but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 23, 2009
            Hi Dante,

            In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".
            It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.
            arohanui,
            David


            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@...> wrote:
            >
            > Kia ora David,
            >
            > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!
            >
            > Aloha from Dante.
            >
            > Mula ito kay DANTE.
            >
            >
            > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: David <parked@...>
            > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
            > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Kia ora, bro!
            >
            >
            >
            > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".
            >
            >
            >
            > Kia kaha (be strong),
            >
            > David.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Kia ora na, David,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > From: David Parke <parked@>
            >
            > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
            >
            > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
            >
            > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Hi Dante,
            >
            > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.
            >
            > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and
            >
            > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and
            >
            > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on
            >
            > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world
            >
            > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a
            >
            > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really
            >
            > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic
            >
            > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you
            >
            > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God
            >
            > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a
            >
            > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source
            >
            > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and
            >
            > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to
            >
            > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it
            >
            > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Regards,
            >
            > > David Parke
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Dante Ferry wrote:
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who
            >
            > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same
            >
            > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do
            >
            > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of
            >
            > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will
            >
            > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother
            >
            > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks
            >
            > > > German (don't you think?).
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
            >
            > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
            >
            > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
            >
            > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
            >
            > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing
            >
            > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a
            >
            > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could
            >
            > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a
            >
            > > > translation for Folkspraak either.
            >
            > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to
            >
            > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an
            >
            > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with
            >
            > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.
            >
            > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this
            >
            > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary
            >
            > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.
            >
            > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a
            >
            > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their
            >
            > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > Harry Baker wrote:
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we
            >
            > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe
            >
            > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be
            >
            > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to
            >
            > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal
            >
            > > > > thought.
            >
            > > > > H
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            >
            > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>
            >
            > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
            >
            > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
            >
            > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
            >
            > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06
            >
            > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > Welcome Dante,
            >
            > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
            >
            > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
            >
            > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
            >
            > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
            >
            > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
            >
            > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
            >
            > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
            >
            > > > liturgy.
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
            >
            > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > Latin:
            >
            > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
            >
            > > > > /Dominus tecum,/
            >
            > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
            >
            > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
            >
            > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
            >
            > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /
            >
            > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
            >
            > > > > /Amen/
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
            >
            > > > > de Herr is mid di,
            >
            > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
            >
            > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
            >
            > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
            >
            > > > > Bidd for uss synders
            >
            > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
            >
            > > > > Amen
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > DanteF wrote:
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
            >
            > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
            >
            > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
            >
            > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
            >
            > > > > > Manila, Philippines
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            >
            > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            >
            > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
            >
            > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            >
            > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            >
            > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
            >
            > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            >
            > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            >
            > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
            >
            > > >
            >
            > > >   
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • David
            Yeah, what should I do if the real Frenks demand their word back? Frenkisch does sound somewhat funny to me, because it sounds alot like freakish . Also
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 23, 2009
              Yeah, what should I do if the real "Frenks" demand their word back?

              "Frenkisch" does sound somewhat funny to me, because it sounds alot like "freakish". Also there is a Simpsons character called "Professor Frink". He's known to exclaim yiddish-sounding nonsense, or "Frinkish".

              "Tudisch" isn't going to work, because it's already the frenkisch word for "German".


              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi David (and others),
              >
              > Do you already have any ideas about what kind of different name you would possibly like to use instead of Frenkish?
              >
              > A variety of old Frankish "Thiudisk" would be appropriate, but is probaby too confusing because of the already existing language names Deutsch (German, meaning German), Duits and Diets (both Dutch, the former meaning German, the latter an archaic and nowadays politically incorrect word for Dutch/Flemish), Dutch (English), Tysk (Scandinavian, meaning German), Thiois (French, meaning Dutch/Flemish/Limburgian/German dialects in Walloon Belgium, and German dialects in France), Teutonic (from Latin Theodiscus = Germanic) etc. from the same root Thiudisk, meaning something like folkish, folk-language, people's language so actually it just meant Folkspraak ;-)
              >
              > The Frankish are also called Salians, Merovingians, Carolingians, hence "Salisch", "Mervisch" or "Karlisch" (or maybe rather
              > "Kerlisch", in order to avoid confusion with Germ/Dutch Karelisch = Karelian Finnish language) may be alternative names for Frenkisch?
              >
              > Or you could think of something like New Frenkish (Neofranconian) or even Francogermanic...
              >
              > I don't know, just thinking.
              >
              >
              > Ingmar
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Dante,
              > > My language is called "Frenkisch" but it is not based on the Frankish
              > > germanic language. If anything modern Dutch is the child of the language
              > > spoken by the Franks who ruled France (originally Roman Gaul. In Gaul,
              > > they stopped speaking a germanic language and learned the local vulgar
              > > Latin dialect. The land that they ruled and the Romance language they
              > > spoke came to be named after them. In the low countries some dialects of
              > > the Frankisch language persisted and evolved into Dutch.
              > >
              > > I came to that name "frenkisch" from a variety of reasons. For one, my
              > > frenkisch is quite influenced by French (as are most Germanic
              > > languages). For another thing, it has the appearance of a typical
              > > "Western" language. I was aware of how the word "frank" had entered into
              > > many languages as a word for "westerner". So it's a "westerner language".
              > > Not particularly compelling reasons to name it like that but I haven't
              > > been able to think of a better name, and it's kind of stuck now. It
              > > turns out that there is a real language called frenkisch/fränkisch -- a
              > > dialect of German. This might be a good reason for me to change my
              > > language's name to something else.
              > >
              > > Here's an alternative version of Ave Maria in frenkisch.
              > >
              > > Ave Marie, foll af grace
              > > de Heirr is mid di,
              > > segend is dou twischen frauwen,
              > > ond segend is de frukt af dyn scheut, Jesus.
              > > Heilig Marie, Mouder af Godd,
              > > Bidd for ons sunders
              > > Nou ond in de tyd af onser deud.
              > > Amen
              > >
              > >
              > > Dante Ferry wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi David,
              > > >
              > > > Indeed your translations and explanations are helpful!
              > > >
              > > > In Germanic languages Hail Mary's, "body" and "womb" are both used. I
              > > > have noticed "schoot" and "lichaam". So are "gebenedeit" and
              > > > "gezegend" In Philippine languages, which are way different from
              > > > Germanic, "body", "belly" and "womb" are used depending on how exact
              > > > the translator want his translation to be! In Tagalog (the official
              > > > language of the Philippines), we use "child".
              > > >
              > > > When you say "Frenkish", do you mean you based your lexicon on the
              > > > Frankish Germanic language?
              > > >
              > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
              > > >
              > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
              > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
              > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
              > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:09 PM
              > > >
              > > > That Hail Mary was in my own un-titled Folkspraak dialect. In my
              > > > "Frenkisch" dialect, it would be as follows:
              > > >
              > > > Ave Marie, foll af genaide
              > > > de Heirr is mid di,
              > > > heiligd is dou twischen frauwen,
              > > > ond heiligd is de frukt af dyn lyv, Jesus.
              > > > Heilig Marie, Mouder af Godd,
              > > > Bidd for ons sunders
              > > > Nou ond in de oor af onser deud.
              > > > Amen
              > > >
              > > > Even to translate with such a short text, there are some options, as I
              > > > have some choices for words like "grace"
              > > > Frenkisch also has "grace"as a word.
              > > >
              > > > "frukt af dyn lyv" mean literally "fruit of your body", not specifically
              > > > womb. I've had a think about it, and thanks to you "discovered" a new
              > > > word for the vocabulary.
              > > > "scheut", n. = bosom, lap, womb.
              > > >
              > > > So optionally it could be:
              > > > "ond heiligd is de frukt af dyn scheut, Jesus."
              > > >
              > > > Also instead of "heiligd" for benedict-, I could used "segend".
              > > > "heilige" and "seg'ne" mean something quite similar.
              > > > "segend is dou twischen frauwen"
              > > >
              > > > I've done a Pater Nostra for frenkisch as follows:
              > > >
              > > > Onser fader, dat is in de himmel
              > > > Dyn nam wese heiligd
              > > > Dyn ryk komm
              > > > Dyn will geschej
              > > > op de erd als in de himmel
              > > > Gev ons dis dag onser daglik breud
              > > > Fergev ons onser schuld
              > > > So fergeve wi onser schuldigers
              > > > Ond ferleid ons nejt
              > > > Doch redd ons fra uvel
              > > > Fordat dyn is de ryk, de macht ond de herrlikheid in all eiwigheid
              > > > Amen
              > > >
              > > > Hope this is helpful,
              > > > David
              > > >
              > > > Dante Ferry wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi David,
              > > > >
              > > > > Thank you for responding to my query. Well, the prayers I listed down
              > > > > are mostly "Christian", with only the Hail Mary as decidedly Catholic.
              > > > > Since we call Folkspraak as Intergermanic, I guess German texts would
              > > > > be legitimate bases. Furthermore, I have read about different
              > > > > Folkspraak "dialects" - in which of them is your Hail Mary translation?
              > > > >
              > > > > It is very interesting to have common synthetic languages based on
              > > > > natural, related languages. I have been a member of the Lingua Franca
              > > > > Nova Yahoo group and I was told by the organizer that "Chabacano", a
              > > > > Philippine Spanish Creole language, has been one of his inspirations.
              > > > >
              > > > > I do hope I can get the other prayers in the particular dialect of
              > > > > Folkspraak you translated the Hail Mary - with your help! I found
              > > > > several versions of the Our Father in the group files.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thank you and God bless.
              > > > >
              > > > > The sentence below is Tagalog for "This is from Dante."
              > > > >
              > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
              > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
              > > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
              > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
              > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
              > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 10:29 AM
              > > > >
              > > > > Welcome Dante,
              > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
              > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
              > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
              > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
              > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
              > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
              > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
              > > > liturgy.
              > > > >
              > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
              > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
              > > > >
              > > > > Latin:
              > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
              > > > > /Dominus tecum,/
              > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
              > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
              > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
              > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus,/
              > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
              > > > > /Amen/
              > > > >
              > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
              > > > > de Herr is mid di,
              > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
              > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
              > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
              > > > > Bidd for uss synders
              > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
              > > > > Amen
              > > > >
              > > > > DanteF wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
              > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
              > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
              > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
              > > > > > Manila, Philippines
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
              > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ------------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
              > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Dante Ferry
              Hello David, Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to 
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 24, 2009
                Hello David,

                Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!

                Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 

                Mula ito kay DANTE.


                --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

                From: David <parked@...>
                Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM







                 









                Hi Dante,



                In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".

                It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.

                arohanui,

                David



                --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                >

                > Kia ora David,

                >

                > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!

                >

                > Aloha from Dante.

                >

                > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                >

                >

                > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

                >

                > From: David <parked@...>

                > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >  

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > Kia ora, bro!

                >

                >

                >

                > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".

                >

                >

                >

                > Kia kaha (be strong),

                >

                > David.

                >

                >

                >

                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                >

                > >

                >

                > > Kia ora na, David,

                >

                > >

                >

                > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.

                >

                > >

                >

                > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.

                >

                > >

                >

                > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:

                >

                > >

                >

                > > From: David Parke <parked@>

                >

                > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                >

                > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                >

                > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM

                >

                > >

                >

                > > Hi Dante,

                >

                > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.

                >

                > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and

                >

                > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and

                >

                > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on

                >

                > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world

                >

                > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a

                >

                > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really

                >

                > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic

                >

                > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you

                >

                > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God

                >

                > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a

                >

                > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source

                >

                > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.

                >

                > >

                >

                > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and

                >

                > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to

                >

                > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it

                >

                > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.

                >

                > >

                >

                > > Regards,

                >

                > > David Parke

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > > Dante Ferry wrote:

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who

                >

                > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same

                >

                > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do

                >

                > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of

                >

                > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will

                >

                > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother

                >

                > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks

                >

                > > > German (don't you think?).

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@

                >

                > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                >

                > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                >

                > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                >

                > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing

                >

                > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a

                >

                > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could

                >

                > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a

                >

                > > > translation for Folkspraak either.

                >

                > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to

                >

                > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an

                >

                > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with

                >

                > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.

                >

                > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this

                >

                > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary

                >

                > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.

                >

                > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a

                >

                > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their

                >

                > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > Harry Baker wrote:

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we

                >

                > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe

                >

                > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be

                >

                > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to

                >

                > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal

                >

                > > > > thought.

                >

                > > > > H

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                >

                > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>

                >

                > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                >

                > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                >

                > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                >

                > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06

                >

                > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > Welcome Dante,

                >

                > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be

                >

                > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between

                >

                > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the

                >

                > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be

                >

                > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the

                >

                > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail

                >

                > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant

                >

                > > > liturgy.

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin

                >

                > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > Latin:

                >

                > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/

                >

                > > > > /Dominus tecum,/

                >

                > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/

                >

                > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./

                >

                > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/

                >

                > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /

                >

                > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./

                >

                > > > > /Amen/

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade

                >

                > > > > de Herr is mid di,

                >

                > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,

                >

                > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.

                >

                > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,

                >

                > > > > Bidd for uss synders

                >

                > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.

                >

                > > > > Amen

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > DanteF wrote:

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the

                >

                > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE

                >

                > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them

                >

                > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,

                >

                > > > > > Manila, Philippines

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                >

                > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                >

                > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                >

                > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > > >

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                >

                > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                >

                > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                >

                > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > > >

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                >

                > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                >

                > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00

                >

                > > >

                >

                > > >   

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                >

                > >

                >

                > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > >

                >

                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

                > >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • chamavian
                Frudisch or Frudian in English would make a nice cross-word, from Frankisch x Tudisch. Or Tankisch (E Tankian ) of course. Or even Trudisch ;-)
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 24, 2009
                  "Frudisch" or "Frudian" in English would make a nice cross-word, from Frankisch x Tudisch. Or "Tankisch" (E "Tankian") of course. Or even Trudisch ;-)



                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yeah, what should I do if the real "Frenks" demand their word back?
                  >
                  > "Frenkisch" does sound somewhat funny to me, because it sounds alot like "freakish". Also there is a Simpsons character called "Professor Frink". He's known to exclaim yiddish-sounding nonsense, or "Frinkish".
                  >
                  > "Tudisch" isn't going to work, because it's already the frenkisch word for "German".
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi David (and others),
                  > >
                  > > Do you already have any ideas about what kind of different name you would possibly like to use instead of Frenkish?
                  > >
                  > > A variety of old Frankish "Thiudisk" would be appropriate, but is probaby too confusing because of the already existing language names Deutsch (German, meaning German), Duits and Diets (both Dutch, the former meaning German, the latter an archaic and nowadays politically incorrect word for Dutch/Flemish), Dutch (English), Tysk (Scandinavian, meaning German), Thiois (French, meaning Dutch/Flemish/Limburgian/German dialects in Walloon Belgium, and German dialects in France), Teutonic (from Latin Theodiscus = Germanic) etc. from the same root Thiudisk, meaning something like folkish, folk-language, people's language so actually it just meant Folkspraak ;-)
                  > >
                  > > The Frankish are also called Salians, Merovingians, Carolingians, hence "Salisch", "Mervisch" or "Karlisch" (or maybe rather
                  > > "Kerlisch", in order to avoid confusion with Germ/Dutch Karelisch = Karelian Finnish language) may be alternative names for Frenkisch?
                  > >
                  > > Or you could think of something like New Frenkish (Neofranconian) or even Francogermanic...
                  > >
                  > > I don't know, just thinking.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Ingmar
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Dante,
                  > > > My language is called "Frenkisch" but it is not based on the Frankish
                  > > > germanic language. If anything modern Dutch is the child of the language
                  > > > spoken by the Franks who ruled France (originally Roman Gaul. In Gaul,
                  > > > they stopped speaking a germanic language and learned the local vulgar
                  > > > Latin dialect. The land that they ruled and the Romance language they
                  > > > spoke came to be named after them. In the low countries some dialects of
                  > > > the Frankisch language persisted and evolved into Dutch.
                  > > >
                  > > > I came to that name "frenkisch" from a variety of reasons. For one, my
                  > > > frenkisch is quite influenced by French (as are most Germanic
                  > > > languages). For another thing, it has the appearance of a typical
                  > > > "Western" language. I was aware of how the word "frank" had entered into
                  > > > many languages as a word for "westerner". So it's a "westerner language".
                  > > > Not particularly compelling reasons to name it like that but I haven't
                  > > > been able to think of a better name, and it's kind of stuck now. It
                  > > > turns out that there is a real language called frenkisch/fr�nkisch -- a
                  > > > dialect of German. This might be a good reason for me to change my
                  > > > language's name to something else.
                  > > >
                  > > > Here's an alternative version of Ave Maria in frenkisch.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ave Marie, foll af grace
                  > > > de Heirr is mid di,
                  > > > segend is dou twischen frauwen,
                  > > > ond segend is de frukt af dyn scheut, Jesus.
                  > > > Heilig Marie, Mouder af Godd,
                  > > > Bidd for ons sunders
                  > > > Nou ond in de tyd af onser deud.
                  > > > Amen
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Dante Ferry wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi David,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Indeed your translations and explanations are helpful!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In Germanic languages Hail Mary's, "body" and "womb" are both used. I
                  > > > > have noticed "schoot" and "lichaam". So are "gebenedeit" and
                  > > > > "gezegend" In Philippine languages, which are way different from
                  > > > > Germanic, "body", "belly" and "womb" are used depending on how exact
                  > > > > the translator want his translation to be! In Tagalog (the official
                  > > > > language of the Philippines), we use "child".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When you say "Frenkish", do you mean you based your lexicon on the
                  > > > > Frankish Germanic language?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
                  > > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                  > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:09 PM
                  > > > >
                  > > > > That Hail Mary was in my own un-titled Folkspraak dialect. In my
                  > > > > "Frenkisch" dialect, it would be as follows:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ave Marie, foll af genaide
                  > > > > de Heirr is mid di,
                  > > > > heiligd is dou twischen frauwen,
                  > > > > ond heiligd is de frukt af dyn lyv, Jesus.
                  > > > > Heilig Marie, Mouder af Godd,
                  > > > > Bidd for ons sunders
                  > > > > Nou ond in de oor af onser deud.
                  > > > > Amen
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Even to translate with such a short text, there are some options, as I
                  > > > > have some choices for words like "grace"
                  > > > > Frenkisch also has "grace"as a word.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "frukt af dyn lyv" mean literally "fruit of your body", not specifically
                  > > > > womb. I've had a think about it, and thanks to you "discovered" a new
                  > > > > word for the vocabulary.
                  > > > > "scheut", n. = bosom, lap, womb.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So optionally it could be:
                  > > > > "ond heiligd is de frukt af dyn scheut, Jesus."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Also instead of "heiligd" for benedict-, I could used "segend".
                  > > > > "heilige" and "seg'ne" mean something quite similar.
                  > > > > "segend is dou twischen frauwen"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I've done a Pater Nostra for frenkisch as follows:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Onser fader, dat is in de himmel
                  > > > > Dyn nam wese heiligd
                  > > > > Dyn ryk komm
                  > > > > Dyn will geschej
                  > > > > op de erd als in de himmel
                  > > > > Gev ons dis dag onser daglik breud
                  > > > > Fergev ons onser schuld
                  > > > > So fergeve wi onser schuldigers
                  > > > > Ond ferleid ons nejt
                  > > > > Doch redd ons fra uvel
                  > > > > Fordat dyn is de ryk, de macht ond de herrlikheid in all eiwigheid
                  > > > > Amen
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hope this is helpful,
                  > > > > David
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Dante Ferry wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi David,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thank you for responding to my query. Well, the prayers I listed down
                  > > > > > are mostly "Christian", with only the Hail Mary as decidedly Catholic.
                  > > > > > Since we call Folkspraak as Intergermanic, I guess German texts would
                  > > > > > be legitimate bases. Furthermore, I have read about different
                  > > > > > Folkspraak "dialects" - in which of them is your Hail Mary translation?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > It is very interesting to have common synthetic languages based on
                  > > > > > natural, related languages. I have been a member of the Lingua Franca
                  > > > > > Nova Yahoo group and I was told by the organizer that "Chabacano", a
                  > > > > > Philippine Spanish Creole language, has been one of his inspirations.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I do hope I can get the other prayers in the particular dialect of
                  > > > > > Folkspraak you translated the Hail Mary - with your help! I found
                  > > > > > several versions of the Our Father in the group files.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thank you and God bless.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The sentence below is Tagalog for "This is from Dante."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
                  > > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
                  > > > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>
                  > > > > <mailto:parked%40woosh.co.nz>>
                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                  > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 10:29 AM
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Welcome Dante,
                  > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
                  > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
                  > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
                  > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
                  > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
                  > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
                  > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
                  > > > > liturgy.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
                  > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Latin:
                  > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
                  > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/
                  > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
                  > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
                  > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
                  > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus,/
                  > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
                  > > > > > /Amen/
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
                  > > > > > de Herr is mid di,
                  > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
                  > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
                  > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
                  > > > > > Bidd for uss synders
                  > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
                  > > > > > Amen
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > DanteF wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
                  > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
                  > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
                  > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
                  > > > > > > Manila, Philippines
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                  > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                  > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • David
                  My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 24, 2009
                    My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years in New Zealand, shows little progress. I have suggested to him that he should try to learn Maori, because he might find it has a lot in common with his mother tongue.

                    I'm not sure to what degree the Polynesian languages are mutually intelligible, but there are some very obvious cognates such as Maori whare = Samoan fale (house). In the Polynesian languages, it seems that the vowels are very stable but the consonants seem to change more.
                    eg
                    Hawaiian "Hawai'i" (Hawaii)
                    Samoa "Savaii" (Major island in the Samoan group)
                    Maori "Hawaiki" (Legendary homeland of the Maori)

                    I have heard of one anecdote of a Cook Islander (friend of my father) traveling to Tahiti (French Polynesia) and being able to UNDERSTAND Tahitian passively. But the Tahitians refusing to actually attempt a conversation with her, insisting on using French or English.

                    Captain James Cook, when exploring New Zealand, had aboard his ship a Tahitian by the name of Tupia. He was apparently able to communicate with the Maoris with little difficulty, although the 2 communities had been separated by 1000s of kilometers of ocean for many hundreds of years.

                    So a pan-Polynesian language would be quite feasible, if there existed the motivation to construct one. My observations of the Maori language revival movement in NZ, is that most display little curiosity towards their fellow Polynesians, the movement tends to be dominated by inwards looking nationalists.


                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello David,
                    >
                    > Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!
                    >
                    > Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 
                    >
                    > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: David <parked@...>
                    > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                    > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Dante,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".
                    >
                    > It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.
                    >
                    > arohanui,
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Kia ora David,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Aloha from Dante.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > From: David <parked@>
                    >
                    > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                    >
                    > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                    >
                    > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >  
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Kia ora, bro!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Kia kaha (be strong),
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > David.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Kia ora na, David,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > From: David Parke <parked@>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Hi Dante,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Regards,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > David Parke
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Dante Ferry wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > German (don't you think?).
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > translation for Folkspraak either.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Harry Baker wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > thought.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > H
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Welcome Dante,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > liturgy.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Latin:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > /Amen/
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > de Herr is mid di,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Bidd for uss synders
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Amen
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > DanteF wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Manila, Philippines
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >   
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Dante Ferry
                    Hi David, Nice to know how old you are.  I am almost twice your age (62!).  In the Philippines, I am already a senior citizen.  We start them younger
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 24, 2009
                      Hi David,

                      Nice to know how old you are.  I am almost twice your age (62!).  In the Philippines, I am already a senior citizen.  We start them younger (60)...

                      Anyway, the anecdote of the Cook Islander going to Tahiti is probably more of an egoistic or nationalist expression on the part of the Tahitians.  I lived in Toronto, Canada in the '70's and often visited Montreal.  Together with friends, we asked directions in English.  The Montrealers either ignored us or "pretended" not to speak or understand English.  We repeated the questions in French (or "Quebecois") and voila, they responded!

                      In the Philippines, we have some 170 or so languages and dialects.  There are major and minor ones.  There is also the phenomenon of acculturation and the minorities are often the victims.  There are 10 or more languages spoken by more than a million people each.  Our so-called Filipino is based on Tagalog, the second most-spoken language.  That outrages the Cebuanos because they are more in number.  Well, the government at that time had their reasons.

                      We have been under the Spaniards and Americans and knowing the Filipinos, we pick up languages like picking up strawberries.  Our love and practice of our mother tongues are the reasons why the languages survived the imposition of Spanish and English in our everyday lives.  The "Overseas Filipino Workers" are spread all over the world and I suppose they should know the local languages if they had to survive there.  I was pleasantly surprised to know the Vatican representative to Ulaan Baatar (Mongolia) is a Filipino bishop!

                      Nice talking to you about our languages.

                      Mula ito kay DANTE.


                      --- On Tue, 11/24/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

                      From: David <parked@...>
                      Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                      To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:47 PM







                       









                      My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years in New Zealand, shows little progress. I have suggested to him that he should try to learn Maori, because he might find it has a lot in common with his mother tongue.



                      I'm not sure to what degree the Polynesian languages are mutually intelligible, but there are some very obvious cognates such as Maori whare = Samoan fale (house). In the Polynesian languages, it seems that the vowels are very stable but the consonants seem to change more.

                      eg

                      Hawaiian "Hawai'i" (Hawaii)

                      Samoa "Savaii" (Major island in the Samoan group)

                      Maori "Hawaiki" (Legendary homeland of the Maori)



                      I have heard of one anecdote of a Cook Islander (friend of my father) traveling to Tahiti (French Polynesia) and being able to UNDERSTAND Tahitian passively. But the Tahitians refusing to actually attempt a conversation with her, insisting on using French or English.



                      Captain James Cook, when exploring New Zealand, had aboard his ship a Tahitian by the name of Tupia. He was apparently able to communicate with the Maoris with little difficulty, although the 2 communities had been separated by 1000s of kilometers of ocean for many hundreds of years.



                      So a pan-Polynesian language would be quite feasible, if there existed the motivation to construct one. My observations of the Maori language revival movement in NZ, is that most display little curiosity towards their fellow Polynesians, the movement tends to be dominated by inwards looking nationalists.



                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                      >

                      > Hello David,

                      >

                      > Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!

                      >

                      > Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 

                      >

                      > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                      >

                      >

                      > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > From: David <parked@...>

                      > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                      > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                      > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >  

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Hi Dante,

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".

                      >

                      > It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.

                      >

                      > arohanui,

                      >

                      > David

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Kia ora David,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Aloha from Dante.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@> wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > From: David <parked@>

                      >

                      > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                      >

                      > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                      >

                      > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >  

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Kia ora, bro!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Kia kaha (be strong),

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > David.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Kia ora na, David,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > From: David Parke <parked@>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Hi Dante,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Regards,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > David Parke

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Dante Ferry wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > German (don't you think?).

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > translation for Folkspraak either.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Harry Baker wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > thought.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > H

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Welcome Dante,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > liturgy.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Latin:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > /Amen/

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > de Herr is mid di,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Bidd for uss synders

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Amen

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > DanteF wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > Manila, Philippines

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > >   

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dante Ferry
                      David, Here is a link to my inactive Yahoo group about Polynesia.  A Hawaiian-Filipino friend of mine started it.  He is also part Maori.
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 24, 2009
                        David,

                        Here is a link to my inactive Yahoo group about Polynesia.  A Hawaiian-Filipino friend of mine started it.  He is also part Maori.

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malayopolynesian/


                        Mula ito kay DANTE.


                        --- On Tue, 11/24/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

                        From: David <parked@...>
                        Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                        To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:47 PM







                         









                        My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years in New Zealand, shows little progress. I have suggested to him that he should try to learn Maori, because he might find it has a lot in common with his mother tongue.



                        I'm not sure to what degree the Polynesian languages are mutually intelligible, but there are some very obvious cognates such as Maori whare = Samoan fale (house). In the Polynesian languages, it seems that the vowels are very stable but the consonants seem to change more.

                        eg

                        Hawaiian "Hawai'i" (Hawaii)

                        Samoa "Savaii" (Major island in the Samoan group)

                        Maori "Hawaiki" (Legendary homeland of the Maori)



                        I have heard of one anecdote of a Cook Islander (friend of my father) traveling to Tahiti (French Polynesia) and being able to UNDERSTAND Tahitian passively. But the Tahitians refusing to actually attempt a conversation with her, insisting on using French or English.



                        Captain James Cook, when exploring New Zealand, had aboard his ship a Tahitian by the name of Tupia. He was apparently able to communicate with the Maoris with little difficulty, although the 2 communities had been separated by 1000s of kilometers of ocean for many hundreds of years.



                        So a pan-Polynesian language would be quite feasible, if there existed the motivation to construct one. My observations of the Maori language revival movement in NZ, is that most display little curiosity towards their fellow Polynesians, the movement tends to be dominated by inwards looking nationalists.



                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                        >

                        > Hello David,

                        >

                        > Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!

                        >

                        > Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 

                        >

                        > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                        >

                        >

                        > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > From: David <parked@...>

                        > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                        > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                        > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >  

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Hi Dante,

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".

                        >

                        > It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.

                        >

                        > arohanui,

                        >

                        > David

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Kia ora David,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Aloha from Dante.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@> wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > From: David <parked@>

                        >

                        > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                        >

                        > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                        >

                        > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >  

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Kia ora, bro!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Kia kaha (be strong),

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > David.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Kia ora na, David,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > From: David Parke <parked@>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Hi Dante,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Regards,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > David Parke

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Dante Ferry wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > German (don't you think?).

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > translation for Folkspraak either.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Harry Baker wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > thought.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > H

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Welcome Dante,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > liturgy.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Latin:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > /Amen/

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > de Herr is mid di,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Bidd for uss synders

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Amen

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > DanteF wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > Manila, Philippines

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > >   

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • chamavian
                        Hir in Nederland daer aere mennig mennische dat komme fran Indonesie. Mennig av dem aere av mingeled ras, dat wil saege: dee have Europeisch ond Indonesisch
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 28, 2009
                          Hir in Nederland daer aere mennig mennische dat komme fran Indonesie. Mennig av dem aere av mingeled ras, dat wil saege: dee have Europeisch ond Indonesisch foralders. Man name dem ofte "halfblood". Daer is okso een grup mid Asiatisch ond Melanesish foralders, de Molukkers oller Ambonese, ond een lyttel grup Papuas fran Ny-Guinea. Ond, interessant, okso een lyttel grup av Afrikanisch ond Asiatisch blood, fran Ghanesisch militaers dat kommede to Nederlandisch-Indie in de end av de 19de jaarhunderd.
                          Daer aere okso mennig Chinesisch Indonesiers in Nederland, dee have beginned ofte populaer restaurants hir.
                          Ond nit to forgete aere de mennig "totoks", Europeisch Nederlanders dat ware boren in Nederlandisch Indie ond have kommed to Holland after Indonesie's unavhangligheed in 1948.



                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years in New Zealand, shows little progress. I have suggested to him that he should try to learn Maori, because he might find it has a lot in common with his mother tongue.
                          >
                          > I'm not sure to what degree the Polynesian languages are mutually intelligible, but there are some very obvious cognates such as Maori whare = Samoan fale (house). In the Polynesian languages, it seems that the vowels are very stable but the consonants seem to change more.
                          > eg
                          > Hawaiian "Hawai'i" (Hawaii)
                          > Samoa "Savaii" (Major island in the Samoan group)
                          > Maori "Hawaiki" (Legendary homeland of the Maori)
                          >
                          > I have heard of one anecdote of a Cook Islander (friend of my father) traveling to Tahiti (French Polynesia) and being able to UNDERSTAND Tahitian passively. But the Tahitians refusing to actually attempt a conversation with her, insisting on using French or English.
                          >
                          > Captain James Cook, when exploring New Zealand, had aboard his ship a Tahitian by the name of Tupia. He was apparently able to communicate with the Maoris with little difficulty, although the 2 communities had been separated by 1000s of kilometers of ocean for many hundreds of years.
                          >
                          > So a pan-Polynesian language would be quite feasible, if there existed the motivation to construct one. My observations of the Maori language revival movement in NZ, is that most display little curiosity towards their fellow Polynesians, the movement tends to be dominated by inwards looking nationalists.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello David,
                          > >
                          > > Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!
                          > >
                          > > Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 
                          > >
                          > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From: David <parked@>
                          > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                          > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Dante,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".
                          > >
                          > > It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.
                          > >
                          > > arohanui,
                          > >
                          > > David
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Kia ora David,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Aloha from Dante.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > From: David <parked@>
                          > >
                          > > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                          > >
                          > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                          > >
                          > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >  
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Kia ora, bro!
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Kia kaha (be strong),
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > David.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Kia ora na, David,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > From: David Parke <parked@>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Hi Dante,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > David Parke
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Dante Ferry wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > German (don't you think?).
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > translation for Folkspraak either.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Harry Baker wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > thought.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > H
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Welcome Dante,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > liturgy.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Latin:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > /Amen/
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > de Herr is mid di,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Bidd for uss synders
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Amen
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > DanteF wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > Manila, Philippines
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > >   
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • chamavian
                          To bring the interesting but for our group actually less relevant subject of Malayo-Polynesian languages back closer to Germanic linguistics, I want to ask
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 28, 2009
                            To bring the interesting but for our group actually less relevant subject of Malayo-Polynesian languages back closer to Germanic linguistics, I want to ask your attention for Petjoh, the Dutch based creole language of former Dutch India (now Indonesia). After the Wiki discription below, I also give an example of Petjoh. For people who know a bit of Standard Dutch, it will be very interesting and funny to read and to point out the Indonesian influences (mainly from Malay, Javanese and Batawi).


                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petjo_language

                            Petjo, also known as Petjoh, Petjok, Pecok, is a Dutch-based creole language that originated among the Indos, people of mixed Dutch and Indonesian ancestry in Indonesia. The language has influences from Dutch, Javanese and Betawi. Its speakers presently live mostly in Indonesia and the Netherlands. The language is expected to become extinct by the end of the 21st century.
                            Just as the Indo European (Eurasian) community historically originated from relationships between European males and Indonesian females, its language reflects this same origin. Typified as a mixed marriage language, the grammar of Pecok is based on the maternal Malay language and the lexicon on the paternal Dutch language.
                            The main contact mechanisms responsible for the creation of Petjo are lexical re-orientation; selective replication and convergence. The original speakers of the language do not necessarily want to maintain their first language, but rather create a second one. These creative speakers of the language were probably bilingual, but more fluent in the dominant lingua franca i.e., native Malay language, than Dutch language.
                            In its overall split between grammar and lexicon, the structure of Pecok is very similar to the Media Lengua spoken in Ecuador by the Quechua Indians. With the critical difference that the much older language Pecok, has undergone late system morphemes and syntactic blends.
                            Petjo should not be confused with Javindo, a different creole language spoken in Indonesia

                            And an example of written Petjoh Snowwhite and the seven dwarves

                            "Sneeuwwitje en de seven dwergen"

                            Ister een meprou,sij sit voor de raam en seh: 'Allah,ik verlang zo naar een kind maar njang
                            mooi,niet met idoeng peseh en ramboet djagoeng."
                            En toen sij krijh verwachting een kind en betoel njang mooi: so lief,met swarte chaar en blauwe oohen en blanke vel.

                            Maar de meprou haat dood; kassian nu heef sneeuwwitje heen mama meer.

                            Haar pa hij neem een nieuwe meprou,maar dese erreh fals.
                            Zij wel mooi,maar niet als sneeuwwitje.
                            Als sij wandel met sneeuwwitje,aale mensen kijken maar en sehhen: "Wah toh,so 'n liefe meisje, so aloes,so manis!"

                            .."Perpelan ah," denk die meprou, "waarom se sehhen niet:Wah toh,so 'n mooie meprou.
                            Pakih brosje,pakih giwang! Ik sal maar laten doodmaken,die sneeuwwitje."

                            En toen sij roep een jaher en zij seh: "ik sal jouw heven veel held,als jij maak dood
                            sneeuwwitje.
                            Ja Allah,kassian,waarom toh dese,so'n mooie meisje moet dood?" "Ta perdoelie, haat jou niks
                            aan,wil je of wil je niet?"
                            "Nah ja,dan,soedah laat maar."

                            "Maar aan nieman pertellen loh en jij moet brengen de ati van sneeuwwitje. Brani soempah?"
                            "Brani"
                            De jaher,hij sweer,hij sal aan nieman pertellen.

                            ......En dan de meprou sij roep sneeuwwitje en seh: "Ajoh,jij haat mee naar de bos en soek
                            "Hoet", seh sneeuwwitje en haat mee met de jaher.

                            Als in de bos, de jaher hij pak sneeuwwitje bij de charen en roep:"Nah loe,jij moet dood."
                            De meisje chuilt maar en seh:'Allah tobat,waarom? Ik heb toh niks hedaan?"

                            "Laat maar,jij moet toh dood. Vraah ekskies."
                            "Ekskies!" roept sneeuwwitje.

                            "Kassian",denk de jaher, "nah soedah,ha maar weh."
                            En dan hij schiet een tjeleng en breng de ati bij de meprou.
                            Sij blij en sij roep;"Nah ore ore,nou ikke de mooiste van de kotta!"
                            Sneeuwwitje guilt maar en loopt maar door,daar ister heen mens,heen huis,ister niks.

                            Sij loop maar doooooor....Eindelijk sij kom bij een kleine chuis.
                            Sij ketoh tehen de deur...heen antwoord.
                            Sij ketoh noh een keer en sij goor niks.

                            Sij haat naar binnen,daar de tafel al hedek,klamboes al dich;Sneeuwwitje al kelaparan,sij eet
                            beetje soep,van andere bord sij eet aardaapel,van andere bord een beetje andijvie,andere bord een beetje vlees.

                            Als al kenjang sij verlang te slapen,sij stap in een bed.
                            "loh,veels te klein dese seh!"

                            Sij haat deruit en probeer andere bed-eerste ken niet,tweede ken niet,derde ken niet,vierde
                            ken niet-sevende ken wel.
                            "Heh,so lekker",seh sneeuwwitje en haat slapen.......

                            .....Als al donker de deur hij haat open en seven kleine mannetjes kom binnen.
                            Sij haan eerst baaien,schone slaapbroek en kebaja aan en dan zij willen eten.
                            "Loh, wie eet mijn soep",roep een ven.
                            "Koh so, waar is mijn vlees?"
                            "Tjobat,wie eet mijn aardaapel?"

                            "Ister tentoe dief,ajo soeken!"
                            Sij soeken overal,maar vinden niks.
                            "Nah,soedah,kom slapen maar."

                            "Eh,waarom mijn bed so slordeh?" roep de 1.
                            "Allah,mijn bed niet gekeboet!" roep de ander.
                            "Kijken seh,mijn goeling op de gron."

                            Nommor seven,hij kijk in sijn bed en seh sachjes:"Doe-oe,so 'n mooie meisje!"
                            Allemaal se haan kijken en sehhen"Loh,wie is dat?"
                            "Laat maar slapen",seh de baas nommor seven, "ik haat maar op de baleh-baleh."

                            Als al lich de andere dah,Sneeuwwitje wor wakker.
                            Sij wil guilen als sij seven mannetjes siet,maar dese haan lahhen en de baas hij seh:"Jij wie en wat wil jij?"

                            Sneeuwwitje pertel alles en die kleine kerels sehhen: "Soedah,blijf maar chier,jij mah
                            masak-masak,tjoetji-tjoetji,sapoe-sapoe."
                            Sij vind dat wel prettig en blijf bij die dwerhen.

                            Ondertussen de false meprou ke-enakkan.
                            Ister nieman in de kotta so mooi als sij.
                            Sij hebruik mooie kleren,banjoe wangi en kijk maar in de spiehel.
                            Als sij vraah:"Wie is de mooiste?"
                            Dan de spiegel antwoord:"jij is de mooiste."

                            Op een dah sij kijk weer in de spiehel,ister veel bedak op haar hesich en sij
                            vraag:"Spieheltje,spieheltje aan de wan,wie toh de mooiste in de lan?"

                            Dan seh de spiegel:"Eh ketjelik,Sneeuwwitje bij de dwerhen,ver over de berhen,njang duisend
                            maal schoner dan jij!"

                            De meprou sij is rasend en roep de jaher:"Jij doet wat met sneeuwwitje?Jij geb haar niet
                            doodgemaak!Wah maar jij,ik sal jou wel krijhen."
                            De false meprou haat zich perkleden,pretjies als tjina klontong en loop naar de huis van de dwerhen.

                            Sij siet sneeuwwitje en seh:"Tabeh njonja besal,maoe belih balang-balang moelah?"
                            "Tjobah,laat sien,jij geb wat?"

                            Ada loepa-loepa,blosje,penitie kebaja,soesoeh konde,sisil lamboet,wah ister veel.
                            Njonja besal heef mooie lamboet,maar niet mooie sisil.

                            Dese njang bagoes sekali,tiga pietjies sadja,wah banjak loegih,tjoba saja flobelen."
                            Zij kam en kam en druk die kam so char op de choof van sneeuwwitje,dat de meisje wor bleek en val op de grond.
                            "Lekker jij!"
                            seh de meprou en loop gauw weh.

                            Als de dwerhen thuis kom,sij sien sneeuwwitje,denken sij dood en haan maar huilen.
                            Maar de baas hij kijk hoed en trek de kam deruit.

                            Hij smeer sneeuwwitje met kajoe poetih en dan sij wor beter.
                            "Tentoe,jou stiefmoeder deze,jij mah niet meer naar buiten als wij sijn deruit."
                            "Hoet", seh sneeuwwitje..

                            De false mefrou kom teruh bij haar chuis,vraah weer aan de spiehel
                            of sij de mooiste is,maar de spiehel seh weer.
                            "Tjies,katjang boentjies,sneeuwwitje noh altet de schoonste!"
                            "Hoe ken dat,ik dach sij al dood!" En de spiehel seh:"Niet!"

                            De false meprou perkleed weer en haat weer naar de dwerhen.
                            Sneeuwwitje staat voor de raam en seh:
                            "Haat maar weh,ik mah niet naar buiten.
                            Laatst ik bijna dood!"
                            "Waarom?"

                            De meisje vertel de gele boel.
                            "Nou maar,seh.
                            Ik ben niet so gemeen hoor.
                            Ik verkoop korset-korset.
                            Wil djiprou niet sien?"
                            "nahja,kom maar chier."

                            Sneeuwwitje pas de korset en de stiefmoeder trek de veters.
                            "Adoeh,niet so char,seh!
                            Ik kan geen adem galen."

                            De meprou trek noh harderder en sneeuwwitje val neer,net als dood.
                            Als de dwerhen thuis komen,sij sien die lieve kind weer op de gron.
                            Ze maken de korset los en sneeuwwitje kan weer adem galen.

                            "Jij ben betoel-betoel tambeng,al bijna dood 1 keer,toh noh niet kapoh.
                            Jij mah niet meer kopen," sneeuwwitje krijh straf en wor ophesloten.

                            De meprou hoort weer van die spiehel,dat sneeuwwitje toh de mooiste is.
                            Sij haat dan weer perkleden,sampe bossen,en deze keer als toekang djoealan en haat met een
                            krandjang sawoh's naar de chuis van de dwerhen.

                            Alles dich daar.
                            Sij ketok,maar de deur blijf dich.
                            Sij ketok noh eens en dan de raam haat open en sneeuwwitje seh:"Haat maar weh,ik mah niks kopen,ik heb straf."
                            "Wil U geen mooie sawoh's kopen,njang soet als aroe manis!"
                            "Niet,ik geb geen geld."

                            "Boleh oetang. Tjobah,lekker dese?"
                            Zij neemp een hrote sawoh uit de mand en laat sien aan sneeuwwitje.
                            "Boleh tjobah"

                            "Ah ik wil niet ah,anders ik haat maar weer dood,net als vroeher."
                            "Mana bisa,U haat dood van sawoh? Ik sal eten de gelft."
                            Sij eet een stukje en sneeuwwitje neemp de andere stukje,maar...die met verhif en van de toekang sonder.
                            Sneeuwwitje hap derin en val dood.

                            "Mampoes loe!" seh de stiefmoeder en haat blij naar huis.
                            Als de dwerhen thuis komen,sij sien de meisje weer op de gron.
                            "Terlaloe die sneeuwwitje so onhehoorsaam,weer dood!"
                            Sij wrijven haar met kajoe poetih...gelp niet;beras kentjoer...gelp niet,niks gelp.

                            "Nou betoel dood",seh de baas.
                            Dan allemaal haan guilen,guilen maar.
                            Sneeuwwitje al twee dahen dood noh niet stink.
                            Sij wor heleg in hlazen kis voor de chuisje,zodat de dwerhen kunnen elke dah haar sien.

                            Op een dah kom een prins aan.
                            "Waddoeh,so'n mooi meisje."
                            "Ja," sehhen de dwerhen,"mooi,maar dood."
                            "Sajang sij dood,ik ben al perliep met haar.
                            Heef maar die meisje,ja?"
                            "Loh,waarvoor?"
                            "Ah,laat maar."

                            De prins wil de kis drahen op s'n hoof,maar ketabrak tehen boom.
                            De kist val op de gron,kembriang!Antjoer!!
                            Sneeuwwitje wor levend want de stuk sawoh spring uit haar keel.
                            Allemaal blij,sij haan soenen,tjeplok chier,tjeplok daar die sneeuwwitje.
                            Sij haat trouwen met de prins natierlijk.Al uit.

                            VAN M.A. De GROOT-VAN HOGEZAND








                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hir in Nederland daer aere mennig mennische dat komme fran Indonesie. Mennig av dem aere av mingeled ras, dat wil saege: dee have Europeisch ond Indonesisch foralders. Man name dem ofte "halfblood". Daer is okso een grup mid Asiatisch ond Melanesish foralders, de Molukkers oller Ambonese, ond een lyttel grup Papuas fran Ny-Guinea. Ond, interessant, okso een lyttel grup av Afrikanisch ond Asiatisch blood, fran Ghanesisch militaers dat kommede to Nederlandisch-Indie in de end av de 19de jaarhunderd.
                            > Daer aere okso mennig Chinesisch Indonesiers in Nederland, dee have beginned ofte populaer restaurants hir.
                            > Ond nit to forgete aere de mennig "totoks", Europeisch Nederlanders dat ware boren in Nederlandisch Indie ond have kommed to Holland after Indonesie's unavhangligheed in 1948.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years in New Zealand, shows little progress. I have suggested to him that he should try to learn Maori, because he might find it has a lot in common with his mother tongue.
                            > >
                            > > I'm not sure to what degree the Polynesian languages are mutually intelligible, but there are some very obvious cognates such as Maori whare = Samoan fale (house). In the Polynesian languages, it seems that the vowels are very stable but the consonants seem to change more.
                            > > eg
                            > > Hawaiian "Hawai'i" (Hawaii)
                            > > Samoa "Savaii" (Major island in the Samoan group)
                            > > Maori "Hawaiki" (Legendary homeland of the Maori)
                            > >
                            > > I have heard of one anecdote of a Cook Islander (friend of my father) traveling to Tahiti (French Polynesia) and being able to UNDERSTAND Tahitian passively. But the Tahitians refusing to actually attempt a conversation with her, insisting on using French or English.
                            > >
                            > > Captain James Cook, when exploring New Zealand, had aboard his ship a Tahitian by the name of Tupia. He was apparently able to communicate with the Maoris with little difficulty, although the 2 communities had been separated by 1000s of kilometers of ocean for many hundreds of years.
                            > >
                            > > So a pan-Polynesian language would be quite feasible, if there existed the motivation to construct one. My observations of the Maori language revival movement in NZ, is that most display little curiosity towards their fellow Polynesians, the movement tends to be dominated by inwards looking nationalists.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello David,
                            > > >
                            > > > Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!
                            > > >
                            > > > Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 
                            > > >
                            > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > From: David <parked@>
                            > > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                            > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >  
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Dante,
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".
                            > > >
                            > > > It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.
                            > > >
                            > > > arohanui,
                            > > >
                            > > > David
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Kia ora David,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Aloha from Dante.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > From: David <parked@>
                            > > >
                            > > > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations
                            > > >
                            > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                            > > >
                            > > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >  
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Kia ora, bro!
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Kia kaha (be strong),
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > David.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Kia ora na, David,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Hi Dante,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Regards,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > David Parke
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Dante Ferry wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > German (don't you think?).
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > translation for Folkspraak either.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Harry Baker wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > thought.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > H
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Welcome Dante,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > liturgy.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Latin:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > /Amen/
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > de Herr is mid di,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Bidd for uss synders
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Amen
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > DanteF wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Manila, Philippines
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > >   
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Dante Ferry
                            Very interesting to learn about Petjoh.  I can pinpoint the Malay characteristics in the reduplicated words.  I have not heard of it before.  Most Southeast
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 29, 2009
                              Very interesting to learn about Petjoh.  I can pinpoint the Malay characteristics in the reduplicated words.  I have not heard of it before.  Most Southeast Asian Creoles are Portuguese and Spanish, mixed with Malay languages and Chinese.  There are three actively-spoken "Chabacano" languages, of Spanish admixture, in the Philippines.  Only one, Zamboanguenyo, is spoken by about 250,000.  Cavitenyo and Ternatenyo are fast being assimilated into Filipino because the places they are spoken in are surrounded by Tagalog speakers.  Thankfully, there are revival and conservationist groups

                              Would there be Christian prayers in Petjoh? 

                              Mula ito kay DANTE.


                              --- On Sun, 11/29/09, chamavian <roerd096@...> wrote:

                              From: chamavian <roerd096@...>
                              Subject: [folkspraak] Petjoh (was: prayer translations)
                              To: folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 8:29 AM







                               









                              To bring the interesting but for our group actually less relevant subject of Malayo-Polynesian languages back closer to Germanic linguistics, I want to ask your attention for Petjoh, the Dutch based creole language of former Dutch India (now Indonesia). After the Wiki discription below, I also give an example of Petjoh. For people who know a bit of Standard Dutch, it will be very interesting and funny to read and to point out the Indonesian influences (mainly from Malay, Javanese and Batawi).



                              http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Petjo_language



                              Petjo, also known as Petjoh, Petjok, Pecok, is a Dutch-based creole language that originated among the Indos, people of mixed Dutch and Indonesian ancestry in Indonesia. The language has influences from Dutch, Javanese and Betawi. Its speakers presently live mostly in Indonesia and the Netherlands. The language is expected to become extinct by the end of the 21st century.

                              Just as the Indo European (Eurasian) community historically originated from relationships between European males and Indonesian females, its language reflects this same origin. Typified as a mixed marriage language, the grammar of Pecok is based on the maternal Malay language and the lexicon on the paternal Dutch language.

                              The main contact mechanisms responsible for the creation of Petjo are lexical re-orientation; selective replication and convergence. The original speakers of the language do not necessarily want to maintain their first language, but rather create a second one. These creative speakers of the language were probably bilingual, but more fluent in the dominant lingua franca i.e., native Malay language, than Dutch language.

                              In its overall split between grammar and lexicon, the structure of Pecok is very similar to the Media Lengua spoken in Ecuador by the Quechua Indians. With the critical difference that the much older language Pecok, has undergone late system morphemes and syntactic blends.

                              Petjo should not be confused with Javindo, a different creole language spoken in Indonesia



                              And an example of written Petjoh Snowwhite and the seven dwarves



                              "Sneeuwwitje en de seven dwergen"



                              Ister een meprou,sij sit voor de raam en seh: 'Allah,ik verlang zo naar een kind maar njang

                              mooi,niet met idoeng peseh en ramboet djagoeng."

                              En toen sij krijh verwachting een kind en betoel njang mooi: so lief,met swarte chaar en blauwe oohen en blanke vel.



                              Maar de meprou haat dood; kassian nu heef sneeuwwitje heen mama meer.



                              Haar pa hij neem een nieuwe meprou,maar dese erreh fals.

                              Zij wel mooi,maar niet als sneeuwwitje.

                              Als sij wandel met sneeuwwitje, aale mensen kijken maar en sehhen: "Wah toh,so 'n liefe meisje, so aloes,so manis!"



                              .."Perpelan ah," denk die meprou, "waarom se sehhen niet:Wah toh,so 'n mooie meprou.

                              Pakih brosje,pakih giwang! Ik sal maar laten doodmaken,die sneeuwwitje. "



                              En toen sij roep een jaher en zij seh: "ik sal jouw heven veel held,als jij maak dood

                              sneeuwwitje.

                              Ja Allah,kassian, waarom toh dese,so'n mooie meisje moet dood?" "Ta perdoelie, haat jou niks

                              aan,wil je of wil je niet?"

                              "Nah ja,dan,soedah laat maar."



                              "Maar aan nieman pertellen loh en jij moet brengen de ati van sneeuwwitje. Brani soempah?"

                              "Brani"

                              De jaher,hij sweer,hij sal aan nieman pertellen.



                              ......En dan de meprou sij roep sneeuwwitje en seh: "Ajoh,jij haat mee naar de bos en soek

                              "Hoet", seh sneeuwwitje en haat mee met de jaher.



                              Als in de bos, de jaher hij pak sneeuwwitje bij de charen en roep:"Nah loe,jij moet dood."

                              De meisje chuilt maar en seh:'Allah tobat,waarom? Ik heb toh niks hedaan?"



                              "Laat maar,jij moet toh dood. Vraah ekskies."

                              "Ekskies!" roept sneeuwwitje.



                              "Kassian",denk de jaher, "nah soedah,ha maar weh."

                              En dan hij schiet een tjeleng en breng de ati bij de meprou.

                              Sij blij en sij roep;"Nah ore ore,nou ikke de mooiste van de kotta!"

                              Sneeuwwitje guilt maar en loopt maar door,daar ister heen mens,heen huis,ister niks.



                              Sij loop maar doooooor.... Eindelijk sij kom bij een kleine chuis.

                              Sij ketoh tehen de deur...heen antwoord.

                              Sij ketoh noh een keer en sij goor niks.



                              Sij haat naar binnen,daar de tafel al hedek,klamboes al dich;Sneeuwwitje al kelaparan,sij eet

                              beetje soep,van andere bord sij eet aardaapel,van andere bord een beetje andijvie,andere bord een beetje vlees.



                              Als al kenjang sij verlang te slapen,sij stap in een bed.

                              "loh,veels te klein dese seh!"



                              Sij haat deruit en probeer andere bed-eerste ken niet,tweede ken niet,derde ken niet,vierde

                              ken niet-sevende ken wel.

                              "Heh,so lekker",seh sneeuwwitje en haat slapen...... .



                              .....Als al donker de deur hij haat open en seven kleine mannetjes kom binnen.

                              Sij haan eerst baaien,schone slaapbroek en kebaja aan en dan zij willen eten.

                              "Loh, wie eet mijn soep",roep een ven.

                              "Koh so, waar is mijn vlees?"

                              "Tjobat,wie eet mijn aardaapel?"



                              "Ister tentoe dief,ajo soeken!"

                              Sij soeken overal,maar vinden niks.

                              "Nah,soedah, kom slapen maar."



                              "Eh,waarom mijn bed so slordeh?" roep de 1.

                              "Allah,mijn bed niet gekeboet!" roep de ander.

                              "Kijken seh,mijn goeling op de gron."



                              Nommor seven,hij kijk in sijn bed en seh sachjes:"Doe- oe,so 'n mooie meisje!"

                              Allemaal se haan kijken en sehhen"Loh,wie is dat?"

                              "Laat maar slapen",seh de baas nommor seven, "ik haat maar op de baleh-baleh. "



                              Als al lich de andere dah,Sneeuwwitje wor wakker.

                              Sij wil guilen als sij seven mannetjes siet,maar dese haan lahhen en de baas hij seh:"Jij wie en wat wil jij?"



                              Sneeuwwitje pertel alles en die kleine kerels sehhen: "Soedah,blijf maar chier,jij mah

                              masak-masak, tjoetji-tjoetji, sapoe-sapoe. "

                              Sij vind dat wel prettig en blijf bij die dwerhen.



                              Ondertussen de false meprou ke-enakkan.

                              Ister nieman in de kotta so mooi als sij.

                              Sij hebruik mooie kleren,banjoe wangi en kijk maar in de spiehel.

                              Als sij vraah:"Wie is de mooiste?"

                              Dan de spiegel antwoord:"jij is de mooiste."



                              Op een dah sij kijk weer in de spiehel,ister veel bedak op haar hesich en sij

                              vraag:"Spieheltje, spieheltje aan de wan,wie toh de mooiste in de lan?"



                              Dan seh de spiegel:"Eh ketjelik,Sneeuwwitj e bij de dwerhen,ver over de berhen,njang duisend

                              maal schoner dan jij!"



                              De meprou sij is rasend en roep de jaher:"Jij doet wat met sneeuwwitje? Jij geb haar niet

                              doodgemaak!Wah maar jij,ik sal jou wel krijhen."

                              De false meprou haat zich perkleden,pretjies als tjina klontong en loop naar de huis van de dwerhen.



                              Sij siet sneeuwwitje en seh:"Tabeh njonja besal,maoe belih balang-balang moelah?"

                              "Tjobah,laat sien,jij geb wat?"



                              Ada loepa-loepa, blosje,penitie kebaja,soesoeh konde,sisil lamboet,wah ister veel.

                              Njonja besal heef mooie lamboet,maar niet mooie sisil.



                              Dese njang bagoes sekali,tiga pietjies sadja,wah banjak loegih,tjoba saja flobelen."

                              Zij kam en kam en druk die kam so char op de choof van sneeuwwitje, dat de meisje wor bleek en val op de grond.

                              "Lekker jij!"

                              seh de meprou en loop gauw weh.



                              Als de dwerhen thuis kom,sij sien sneeuwwitje, denken sij dood en haan maar huilen.

                              Maar de baas hij kijk hoed en trek de kam deruit.



                              Hij smeer sneeuwwitje met kajoe poetih en dan sij wor beter.

                              "Tentoe,jou stiefmoeder deze,jij mah niet meer naar buiten als wij sijn deruit."

                              "Hoet", seh sneeuwwitje. .



                              De false mefrou kom teruh bij haar chuis,vraah weer aan de spiehel

                              of sij de mooiste is,maar de spiehel seh weer.

                              "Tjies,katjang boentjies,sneeuwwit je noh altet de schoonste!"

                              "Hoe ken dat,ik dach sij al dood!" En de spiehel seh:"Niet!"



                              De false meprou perkleed weer en haat weer naar de dwerhen.

                              Sneeuwwitje staat voor de raam en seh:

                              "Haat maar weh,ik mah niet naar buiten.

                              Laatst ik bijna dood!"

                              "Waarom?"



                              De meisje vertel de gele boel.

                              "Nou maar,seh.

                              Ik ben niet so gemeen hoor.

                              Ik verkoop korset-korset.

                              Wil djiprou niet sien?"

                              "nahja,kom maar chier."



                              Sneeuwwitje pas de korset en de stiefmoeder trek de veters.

                              "Adoeh,niet so char,seh!

                              Ik kan geen adem galen."



                              De meprou trek noh harderder en sneeuwwitje val neer,net als dood.

                              Als de dwerhen thuis komen,sij sien die lieve kind weer op de gron.

                              Ze maken de korset los en sneeuwwitje kan weer adem galen.



                              "Jij ben betoel-betoel tambeng,al bijna dood 1 keer,toh noh niet kapoh.

                              Jij mah niet meer kopen," sneeuwwitje krijh straf en wor ophesloten.



                              De meprou hoort weer van die spiehel,dat sneeuwwitje toh de mooiste is.

                              Sij haat dan weer perkleden,sampe bossen,en deze keer als toekang djoealan en haat met een

                              krandjang sawoh's naar de chuis van de dwerhen.



                              Alles dich daar.

                              Sij ketok,maar de deur blijf dich.

                              Sij ketok noh eens en dan de raam haat open en sneeuwwitje seh:"Haat maar weh,ik mah niks kopen,ik heb straf."

                              "Wil U geen mooie sawoh's kopen,njang soet als aroe manis!"

                              "Niet,ik geb geen geld."



                              "Boleh oetang. Tjobah,lekker dese?"

                              Zij neemp een hrote sawoh uit de mand en laat sien aan sneeuwwitje.

                              "Boleh tjobah"



                              "Ah ik wil niet ah,anders ik haat maar weer dood,net als vroeher."

                              "Mana bisa,U haat dood van sawoh? Ik sal eten de gelft."

                              Sij eet een stukje en sneeuwwitje neemp de andere stukje,maar. ..die met verhif en van de toekang sonder.

                              Sneeuwwitje hap derin en val dood.



                              "Mampoes loe!" seh de stiefmoeder en haat blij naar huis.

                              Als de dwerhen thuis komen,sij sien de meisje weer op de gron.

                              "Terlaloe die sneeuwwitje so onhehoorsaam, weer dood!"

                              Sij wrijven haar met kajoe poetih...gelp niet;beras kentjoer...gelp niet,niks gelp.



                              "Nou betoel dood",seh de baas.

                              Dan allemaal haan guilen,guilen maar.

                              Sneeuwwitje al twee dahen dood noh niet stink.

                              Sij wor heleg in hlazen kis voor de chuisje,zodat de dwerhen kunnen elke dah haar sien.



                              Op een dah kom een prins aan.

                              "Waddoeh,so' n mooi meisje."

                              "Ja," sehhen de dwerhen,"mooi, maar dood."

                              "Sajang sij dood,ik ben al perliep met haar.

                              Heef maar die meisje,ja?"

                              "Loh,waarvoor? "

                              "Ah,laat maar."



                              De prins wil de kis drahen op s'n hoof,maar ketabrak tehen boom.

                              De kist val op de gron,kembriang! Antjoer!!

                              Sneeuwwitje wor levend want de stuk sawoh spring uit haar keel.

                              Allemaal blij,sij haan soenen,tjeplok chier,tjeplok daar die sneeuwwitje.

                              Sij haat trouwen met de prins natierlijk.Al uit.



                              VAN M.A. De GROOT-VAN HOGEZAND



                              --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@.. .> wrote:

                              >

                              > Hir in Nederland daer aere mennig mennische dat komme fran Indonesie. Mennig av dem aere av mingeled ras, dat wil saege: dee have Europeisch ond Indonesisch foralders. Man name dem ofte "halfblood". Daer is okso een grup mid Asiatisch ond Melanesish foralders, de Molukkers oller Ambonese, ond een lyttel grup Papuas fran Ny-Guinea. Ond, interessant, okso een lyttel grup av Afrikanisch ond Asiatisch blood, fran Ghanesisch militaers dat kommede to Nederlandisch- Indie in de end av de 19de jaarhunderd.

                              > Daer aere okso mennig Chinesisch Indonesiers in Nederland, dee have beginned ofte populaer restaurants hir.

                              > Ond nit to forgete aere de mennig "totoks", Europeisch Nederlanders dat ware boren in Nederlandisch Indie ond have kommed to Holland after Indonesie's unavhangligheed in 1948.

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, "David" <parked@> wrote:

                              > >

                              > > My brother-in-law is Indonesian, his 1st language is Surabayan. He is 38, the same age as me and unfortunately his English is shockingly bad and after 8 years in New Zealand, shows little progress. I have suggested to him that he should try to learn Maori, because he might find it has a lot in common with his mother tongue.

                              > >

                              > > I'm not sure to what degree the Polynesian languages are mutually intelligible, but there are some very obvious cognates such as Maori whare = Samoan fale (house). In the Polynesian languages, it seems that the vowels are very stable but the consonants seem to change more.

                              > > eg

                              > > Hawaiian "Hawai'i" (Hawaii)

                              > > Samoa "Savaii" (Major island in the Samoan group)

                              > > Maori "Hawaiki" (Legendary homeland of the Maori)

                              > >

                              > > I have heard of one anecdote of a Cook Islander (friend of my father) traveling to Tahiti (French Polynesia) and being able to UNDERSTAND Tahitian passively. But the Tahitians refusing to actually attempt a conversation with her, insisting on using French or English.

                              > >

                              > > Captain James Cook, when exploring New Zealand, had aboard his ship a Tahitian by the name of Tupia. He was apparently able to communicate with the Maoris with little difficulty, although the 2 communities had been separated by 1000s of kilometers of ocean for many hundreds of years.

                              > >

                              > > So a pan-Polynesian language would be quite feasible, if there existed the motivation to construct one. My observations of the Maori language revival movement in NZ, is that most display little curiosity towards their fellow Polynesians, the movement tends to be dominated by inwards looking nationalists.

                              > >

                              > >

                              > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ > wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > Hello David,

                              > > >

                              > > > Polynesian languages are so closely related to each other that I presume knowing to speak one would be a big advantage in travelling to  different islands.  They may be compared to Germanic languages in which most words have cognates .  From linguistics and anthropological studies, the origin of the Austronesians is Taiwan.  They migrated to the Philippines southward and then to Micronesia eastward.  I used to be able to visit Honolulu when my sister was still there in 1998 and 2005.  It is so like Philippine cities but a little less humidity.  Lots of Filipinos too!

                              > > >

                              > > > Polynesian languages can be substrates for a "Pan-Polynesian" language comparable to Folkspraak. 

                              > > >

                              > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > --- On Mon, 11/23/09, David <parked@> wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > From: David <parked@>

                              > > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                              > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                              > > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 9:10 PM

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >  

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > Hi Dante,

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > In Maori, the cognate to the well-known Hawaiian "aloha" is "aroha".

                              > > >

                              > > > It means "love", but not generally the romantic/erotic kind, more like love of your family and friends.

                              > > >

                              > > > arohanui,

                              > > >

                              > > > David

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > Kia ora David,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > I think I must have incorporated our own "na", a Tagalog word meaning "already"!

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > Aloha from Dante.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David <parked@> wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > From: David <parked@>

                              > > >

                              > > > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: prayer translations

                              > > >

                              > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                              > > >

                              > > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 8:55 PM

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >  

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > Kia ora, bro!

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > I don't think I've heard the "na" part of that greeting used before though. "Kia ora" is a kind of universal greeting in Maori -- it also means "thanks".

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > Kia kaha (be strong),

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > David.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com, Dante Ferry <danteferry@ ...> wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Kia ora na, David,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > My greeting should link us together.  If you are from New Zealand, then, you know in which language it is.  The Maoris speak a Polynesian language which might have originated from the Philippines - after so many generations, that is.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > I understand your "qualms" about the translations.  It boils down to a person's inclinations and beliefs.  I often see invitations to translate Facebook into Tagalog or Filipino, but do I really want to?  So I have not started translating!  Again, I would have more than second thoughts to translate the Qu'ran into another language.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > But as the saying goes...Dum spiro, spero.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Parke <parked@> wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 2:30 AM

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Hi Dante,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Yes I too like to socialize with people of many cultures and religions.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > I try always to tolerate people of differing beliefs and religions and

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > to treasure our common humanity. I routinely deal with catholics and

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > others and don't normally run into conflict over what they like doing on

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > a Sunday. Thankfully, at least within the Christian world

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > But you should understand that I am not a Christian (except in a

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > cultural heritage kind of way) and it's not something that I really

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > interested in, so please forgive me if I am not all that enthusiastic

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > about translating all those prayers. I'm sure you'd feel the same if you

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > were asked to translate excerpts from my favorite book, "The God

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It may be quite interesting from a

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > linguistics point of view, but if you don't agree with the source

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > material, it's hard to keep neutral.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > But the desire to work towards a common language to promote harmony and

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > understanding among the peoples of this Earth is something we seem to

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > agree upon. Folkspraak has dubious credentials to this aim, since it

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > could be seem to be exclusive on non-germanic speakers.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Regards,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > David Parke

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Dante Ferry wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > I am a Catholic but I don't see any harm in socializing with those who

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > are not. We are all children of God / Allah / Yahweh! God is the same

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Supreme Being given different names by differing languages! But I do

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > see a good point in translating into a common language - speakers of

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > languages possess their own language "souls" and these souls will

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > surely enter into the manner of translating. A speaker whose mother

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > tongue is English cannot be expected to think in German when he speaks

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > German (don't you think?).

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Mula ito kay DANTE.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, David Parke <parked@

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>> wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 3:15 PM

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > I'd have to admit that Christianity was never a part of my upbringing

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > either. I had to take a quick trip to Wikipedia to learn how to do a

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Hail Mary. And there is a different Protestant version. I never could

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > recite a Pater Nostra in full either, until the need arose to make a

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > translation for Folkspraak either.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > But I don't see any harm in being polite and helpful, with regard to

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Dante's request. And he's probably getting a better translation from an

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > ignorant and godless heathen such as myself, who is not loaded with

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > assumptions and had to go and do the research.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Language should be a tool to be used for whatever purpose. I want this

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > language to be developed to the point where it's available vocabulary

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > and grammatical structure allow it to be used for any situation.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Folkspraak could end up being used to write beautiful love poetry. Or a

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > company selling whaling harpoons and landmines could use it in their

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > advertising. There's not much you can do about it.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Harry Baker wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Very much so, I'm Protestant-Atheist by upbringing and didn't know we

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > HAD a version of Hail Mary! England's first Churchman doesn't believe

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > in the good lady! Also not as a derogatory remark but should we be

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > translating any religious texts being as the point of Folkspraak is to

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > bring together and religion has done more to divide. Merely a personal

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > thought.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > H

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Han til Ragnarok Æsir, han til!

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > From: David Parke <parked@ <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > <mailto:parked% 40woosh.co. nz>>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > To: folkspraak@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > <mailto:folkspraak% 40yahoogroups. com>

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, 21 November, 2009 9:29:06

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [folkspraak] prayer translations

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Welcome Dante,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > I'm not familiar with all those prayers. And one problem is going to be

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > translation from which source? These kinds of prayers vary a lot between

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > languages in syntax and literal meaning, although you'd hope that the

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > overall intent was the same, given that they're all meant to be

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > practicing the same or similar religion. Even within the

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > English-speaking world, there seems to be variations in for example Hail

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Mary, depending on whether it's part of a Catholic or Protestant

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > liturgy.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > I've done an attempt at a translation of Hail Mary, taking the Latin

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > prayer and it's Interlingua translation as a basis.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Latin:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /Ave Maria, gratia plena,/

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /Dominus tecum,/

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /benedicta tu in mulieribus,/

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus./

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /Sancta Maria mater Dei,/

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /ora pro nobis peccatoribus, /

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae./

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > /Amen/

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Ave Marie, full af genade

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > de Herr is mid di,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > heligd is du twischen fruen,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > ond heligd is de frukt af din liv, Jesus.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Helig Marie, Moder af Godd,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Bidd for uss synders

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Nu ond in de or af usser doed.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Amen

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > DanteF wrote:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > Hello! I just became a new member. I would like to know if any of the

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > members have translations of these prayers in Folkspaak: SIGN OF THE

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > CROSS, HAIL MARY, GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, APOSTLES' CREED? I need them

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > for a compilation in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry,

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > Manila, Philippines

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date:

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > 11/20/09 19:43:00

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > >   

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              > > >

                              > > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > >

                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              > > >

                              > >

                              >

























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Parke
                              In Nywsewland are nejt so mannig indonesianisch lyden. Wi have her euk somme niderlandisch folk dat have komme ut Indonesie after dat land werded selvstandig.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 29, 2009
                                In Nywsewland are nejt so mannig indonesianisch lyden. Wi have her euk
                                somme niderlandisch folk dat have komme ut Indonesie after dat land
                                werded selvstandig. Ik ha en god frynd dat sin moder kam to NZ ut
                                Niderlandisch Oest Indie after de twede wereld krig.
                                Doch her are mannig chinesisch immigranten ut divers landen. Somme
                                etnisch chinesen komme ut Malaysie, Singapore, ond Indonesie doch mest
                                are ut Hong Kong, Taiwan ond China.

                                Jack, min swager is ut Java ond spreke indonesianisch, surabayan (sin
                                fyrst sprak) ond werklik yvel engelisch. Min syster ha lerned foew
                                Surabayan for him. Dee have en jungling, en dochter dat het "Laili". Si
                                is ungefar tri jaren ald nu. Jack ha ser dunkel brun hud, doch min
                                syster (ond min broder ond ik) are ser blank-hudig. Min nift ha brun hud
                                ond sej ut mannig gelik en maori-majd. De klimat in NZ is nejt goud wit
                                huden, fordat de sonn is ser scharp.
                                Mid min nift , Jack sprek mest surabayan. Si sprek en mischmasch af
                                engelisch ond surabayan. Si is to jung to witte mid wem schuld si spreke
                                engelisch ond mid wem si schuld spreke surabayan. Ik kann seje her de
                                forming af en nyw kreol sprak.

                                Ik interesser mi of is Petjoh gelikartig to afrikaans. Wat are de
                                differencen ond wat are de gelykartigheden? Dee are bed niderlandisch
                                basered kreolspraken. Afrikaans ha sin herkomst in Sudafrika, doch dar
                                ware mannig indonesianisch folk (oft sklaven) in Sudafrika inmidde de
                                tid af de schaping af afrikaans.

                                chamavian wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > To bring the interesting but for our group actually less relevant
                                > subject of Malayo-Polynesian languages back closer to Germanic
                                > linguistics, I want to ask your attention for Petjoh, the Dutch based
                                > creole language of former Dutch India (now Indonesia). After the Wiki
                                > discription below, I also give an example of Petjoh. For people who
                                > know a bit of Standard Dutch, it will be very interesting and funny to
                                > read and to point out the Indonesian influences (mainly from Malay,
                                > Javanese and Batawi).
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petjo_language
                                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petjo_language>
                                >
                                > Petjo, also known as Petjoh, Petjok, Pecok, is a Dutch-based creole
                                > language that originated among the Indos, people of mixed Dutch and
                                > Indonesian ancestry in Indonesia. The language has influences from
                                > Dutch, Javanese and Betawi. Its speakers presently live mostly in
                                > Indonesia and the Netherlands. The language is expected to become
                                > extinct by the end of the 21st century.
                                > Just as the Indo European (Eurasian) community historically originated
                                > from relationships between European males and Indonesian females, its
                                > language reflects this same origin. Typified as a mixed marriage
                                > language, the grammar of Pecok is based on the maternal Malay language
                                > and the lexicon on the paternal Dutch language.
                                > The main contact mechanisms responsible for the creation of Petjo are
                                > lexical re-orientation; selective replication and convergence. The
                                > original speakers of the language do not necessarily want to maintain
                                > their first language, but rather create a second one. These creative
                                > speakers of the language were probably bilingual, but more fluent in
                                > the dominant lingua franca i.e., native Malay language, than Dutch
                                > language.
                                > In its overall split between grammar and lexicon, the structure of
                                > Pecok is very similar to the Media Lengua spoken in Ecuador by the
                                > Quechua Indians. With the critical difference that the much older
                                > language Pecok, has undergone late system morphemes and syntactic blends.
                                > Petjo should not be confused with Javindo, a different creole language
                                > spoken in Indonesia
                                >
                                > And an example of written Petjoh Snowwhite and the seven dwarves
                                >
                              • chamavian
                                Befor 20 jare, ik kennede oek en mann dat war fran Surabaya: hi war de fader av min ex-frendin. Hi war en Indo , dat is av mingeled Europeisch ond Indonesisch
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 29, 2009
                                  Befor 20 jare, ik kennede oek en mann dat war fran Surabaya: hi war de fader av min ex-frendin. Hi war en "Indo", dat is av mingeled Europeisch ond Indonesisch hindergrund. Hi sprekede Malaisch ond oek Javanisch (du saege Surabayanisch, doch dat is nit mer dan en dialekt av de Javanisch sprak). Doch ik tenke dat sin wichtigest modersprak war Indisch-Nederlandisch oder magschee Petjoh oder Javindo (Petjoh is en Nederlandisch basered kreol-sprak mid en Malaisch substrat, Javindo mid en Javanisch substrat). In dat tid, ik kennede mennig Indonesisch mennische ond ik have hoered spreke dem in der Indisch-Nederlandisch aksent, speciael de older folk...

                                  Ik loev dat de folk fran Surabaya is ofte anders dan de stereotypisch
                                  bild dat man have av en Indonesier oder Asiat: de Surabayanisch folk is opener, direkter, assertiver ond magschee oek agressiver dan de mest mennische av West Java.

                                  Du frag ov Petjoh is as Syd-Afrikanisch.
                                  Ik tenk dat daer aere mennig tinge in Syd-Afrikanisch, dat Petjoh have oek:

                                  s- vs. NL z-: PE+AF swart vs. NL zwart; PE seh, AF sê vs NL zeggen.

                                  -s, -f, -k, -g vs. NL -st,-ft,-kt, -cht:
                                  PE+AF mees, hoof, nag vs. NL meest, hoofd, nacht

                                  1 kynn def art (de/die) vs NL two kynne (de+het):
                                  PE de koppie, de huis, AF die koppie, die huis vs NL het kopje, het huis

                                  ond de overal simplifikation av de Nederlandisch grammatika

                                  Ingmar




                                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > In Nywsewland are nejt so mannig indonesianisch lyden. Wi have her euk
                                  > somme niderlandisch folk dat have komme ut Indonesie after dat land
                                  > werded selvstandig. Ik ha en god frynd dat sin moder kam to NZ ut
                                  > Niderlandisch Oest Indie after de twede wereld krig.
                                  > Doch her are mannig chinesisch immigranten ut divers landen. Somme
                                  > etnisch chinesen komme ut Malaysie, Singapore, ond Indonesie doch mest
                                  > are ut Hong Kong, Taiwan ond China.
                                  >
                                  > Jack, min swager is ut Java ond spreke indonesianisch, surabayan (sin
                                  > fyrst sprak) ond werklik yvel engelisch. Min syster ha lerned foew
                                  > Surabayan for him. Dee have en jungling, en dochter dat het "Laili". Si
                                  > is ungefar tri jaren ald nu. Jack ha ser dunkel brun hud, doch min
                                  > syster (ond min broder ond ik) are ser blank-hudig. Min nift ha brun hud
                                  > ond sej ut mannig gelik en maori-majd. De klimat in NZ is nejt goud wit
                                  > huden, fordat de sonn is ser scharp.
                                  > Mid min nift , Jack sprek mest surabayan. Si sprek en mischmasch af
                                  > engelisch ond surabayan. Si is to jung to witte mid wem schuld si spreke
                                  > engelisch ond mid wem si schuld spreke surabayan. Ik kann seje her de
                                  > forming af en nyw kreol sprak.
                                  >
                                  > Ik interesser mi of is Petjoh gelikartig to afrikaans. Wat are de
                                  > differencen ond wat are de gelykartigheden? Dee are bed niderlandisch
                                  > basered kreolspraken. Afrikaans ha sin herkomst in Sudafrika, doch dar
                                  > ware mannig indonesianisch folk (oft sklaven) in Sudafrika inmidde de
                                  > tid af de schaping af afrikaans.
                                  >
                                  > chamavian wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To bring the interesting but for our group actually less relevant
                                  > > subject of Malayo-Polynesian languages back closer to Germanic
                                  > > linguistics, I want to ask your attention for Petjoh, the Dutch based
                                  > > creole language of former Dutch India (now Indonesia). After the Wiki
                                  > > discription below, I also give an example of Petjoh. For people who
                                  > > know a bit of Standard Dutch, it will be very interesting and funny to
                                  > > read and to point out the Indonesian influences (mainly from Malay,
                                  > > Javanese and Batawi).
                                  > >
                                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petjo_language
                                  > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petjo_language>
                                  > >
                                  > > Petjo, also known as Petjoh, Petjok, Pecok, is a Dutch-based creole
                                  > > language that originated among the Indos, people of mixed Dutch and
                                  > > Indonesian ancestry in Indonesia. The language has influences from
                                  > > Dutch, Javanese and Betawi. Its speakers presently live mostly in
                                  > > Indonesia and the Netherlands. The language is expected to become
                                  > > extinct by the end of the 21st century.
                                  > > Just as the Indo European (Eurasian) community historically originated
                                  > > from relationships between European males and Indonesian females, its
                                  > > language reflects this same origin. Typified as a mixed marriage
                                  > > language, the grammar of Pecok is based on the maternal Malay language
                                  > > and the lexicon on the paternal Dutch language.
                                  > > The main contact mechanisms responsible for the creation of Petjo are
                                  > > lexical re-orientation; selective replication and convergence. The
                                  > > original speakers of the language do not necessarily want to maintain
                                  > > their first language, but rather create a second one. These creative
                                  > > speakers of the language were probably bilingual, but more fluent in
                                  > > the dominant lingua franca i.e., native Malay language, than Dutch
                                  > > language.
                                  > > In its overall split between grammar and lexicon, the structure of
                                  > > Pecok is very similar to the Media Lengua spoken in Ecuador by the
                                  > > Quechua Indians. With the critical difference that the much older
                                  > > language Pecok, has undergone late system morphemes and syntactic blends.
                                  > > Petjo should not be confused with Javindo, a different creole language
                                  > > spoken in Indonesia
                                  > >
                                  > > And an example of written Petjoh Snowwhite and the seven dwarves
                                  > >
                                  >
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.