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Re: F�rst on latest Suras af de Koran in Middelsprake

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  • David Parke
    ... Wikipedia would be a good place to examine this, because it has pages for those suras translated into many languages. You could cross-check what you think
    Message 1 of 4 , May 27, 2008
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      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Well, actually I do know some Arabic, but certainly not enough to
      > translate the Qur'ān out of the original into MS;-)
      > Here below you'll find the original Arabic Surahs with their
      > transcription.

      Wikipedia would be a good place to examine this, because it has pages
      for those suras translated into many languages. You could cross-check
      what you think it means among multiple languages and hopefully choose
      the "right path".

      Praise! I was unsure if "lof" meant "belief" or "permission" (leave)
      or perhaps even "love".


      "Inblosing" I understood to be "inflation" which didn't make much
      sense. Is the sense of "inblosing" meant to be more like "influence".
      Maybe a word such as "infliuting" would be more like "influence"

      "Jungest Dag" is represented by which languages? I know of DE "jüngste
      Tag".
      How about something like "domsdag" or "ordeelsdag"?

      The position of the adverb (or is a pronoun?) "alene" is critical
      here. What I got from your MS was "alone/lonely we worship you", when
      I should have understood it to mean "we worship only you"



      >
      > About the MS short or long vowels:
      >
      > V = vowel
      >
      > V = short in close syllable
      > VV = long in close syllable
      > V = long in open syllable
      >

      So are "dag" and "pad" intended to have long or short vowels? I'd
      think long vowels would be preferable based on the source languages.
      And "pad" is only used in the West Germanic languages (cognates are
      represented only in West Germanic languages such as DE Pfad, EN path,
      NL pad). I think a crossword would be appropriate here, something like
      "wegpad"



      > Gröte
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Middelsprake
      >
      >
      > The original of the first Surah, al Fatiha ("the opening), is this:
      >
      > 1:1 بِس�'مِ الل�`هِ الرَ�`ح�'مـَنِ الرَ�`حِيم
      >
      > Bismillāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
      > In the name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful:
      > 1:2 ال�'حَم�'دُ لل�`هِ رَبِ�` ال�'عَالَمِين
      >
      > Al ḥamdu lillāhi rabbi l-'ālamīn
      > Praise be to God, the Lord of the Universe.
      > 1:3 الرَ�`ح�'مـنِ الرَ�`حِيم



      >
      > Ar raḥmāni r-raḥīm
      > The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
      > 1:4 مَـالِكِ يَو�'مِ الدِ�`ين
      >
      > Māliki yawmi d-dīn
      > Master of the Day of Judgment.
      > 1:5 إِيَ�`اك نَع�'بُدُ وإِيَ�`اكَ نَس�'تَعِين




      >
      > Iyyāka na'budu wa iyyāka nasta'īn
      > You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help
      > 1:6 اهدِنَــــا الصِ�`رَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ

      >
      > Ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭ al mustaqīm
      > Guide us to the straight path;
      > 1:7 صِرَاطَ الَ�`ذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِم�' غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِم�' وَلاَ الضَ�`الِ�`ين
      >
      > Ṣirāṭ al-laḏīna an'amta 'alayhim ġayril maġḍūbi 'alayhim walāḍ ḍāllīn
      > The path of those whom You have favoured, not of those who have
      > deserved
      > Your anger, nor of those who stray.
      >
      > And of the last one, An Naas (mankind) this. I'll adapt some of the
      > Middelsprake translation, because I used the Dutch Qur'an translation
      > for that... Ingmar
      >
      > Arabic Text: بِس�'مِ اللهِ الرَ�`ح�'منِ الرَ�`حِيمِِ
      >
      > Transliteration: Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
      >
      > Translation: In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful
      > (see also
      > Bismillah)
      >
      > Verse No: 114:1
      > Arabic Text: قُل�' أَعُوذُ بِرَبِ�` النَ�`اسِ
      >
      >
      > Transliteration: Qul aAAoothu birabbi alnnasi
      >
      > Translation: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
      >
      > Verse No: 114:2
      > Arabic Text: مَلِكِ النَ�`اسِ
      >
      >
      > Transliteration: Maliki alnnasi
      >
      > Translation: The King of mankind,
      >
      > Verse No: 114:3
      > Arabic Text: إِلَهِ النَ�`اسِ
      >
      >
      > Transliteration: Ilahi alnnasi
      >
      > Translation: The True God of mankind,[1]
      >
      > Verse No: 114:4
      > Arabic Text: مِن شَرِ�` ال�'وَس�'وَاسِ ال�'خَنَ�`اسِ
      >
      >
      > Transliteration: Min sharri alwaswasi alkhannasi
      >
      > Translation: From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
      >
      > Verse No: 114:5
      > Arabic Text: الَ�`ذِي يُوَس�'وِسُ فِي صُدُورِ النَ�`اسِ



      >
      >
      > Transliteration: Allathee yuwaswisu fee sudoori alnnasi
      >
      > Translation: Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind,[2]
      >
      > Verse No: 114:6
      > Arabic Text: مِنَ ال�'جِنَ�`ةِ وَ النَ�`اسِ
      >
      >
      > Transliteration: Mina aljinnati waalnnasi
      >
      >
      > Translation: Of the jinn and of mankind
      >
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Groeten Ingmar!
      > >
      > > I didn't realise that you had already created a Middlesprake to
      > > Classical Arabic dictionary ;-)
      > > Or have you translated this out of a Dutch translation of the
      > Koran?
      > >
      > > The reason that I ask, is how have you determined what the exact
      > > meanings of words such as "genade" and "barmhertig" and "pad" in MS
      > > are? I realise that as the author of MS, they can have whatever
      > > meaning you so desire, but have you checked carefully (with the care
      > > and precision that a devout Moslem might desire) that the meaning of
      > > the cognates in the other Germanic languages mean precisely the same
      > > as they do in whatever language you are translating from.
      > > (I'm assuming Dutch or English 'cause I've never heard anything
      > from
      > > you before that you know Arabic).
      > >
      > > I know that many devout Muslims believe that the Koran should not be
      > > translated from the original Classical Arabic because it is changing
      > > the words of the Prophet, and translations can never be 100%
      > accurate.
      > > So translating the Koran from a translation into a 3rd language is
      > > probably yet more problematic.
      > >
      > >
      > > BTW I find the language nice and easy to follow but the marking of
      > > long versus short vowels I find a bit vague. I assume that the
      > vowels
      > > in "al", "in", "af", "dat", "an", "is" and "up" for example are
      > > short. But this is simply because I know that they should be short
      > > based on the sampling of Germlangs that you use. But then I
      > see "dem"
      > > beside "dat" -- with "dem" (I assume) meant to have a long vowel and
      > > "dat" meant to have a short vowel" -- side by side they look a bit
      > > incongruous. And I am not sure whether you intend "pad" and "dag" to
      > > have long or short vowels. And if "al" (= EN all, NL al) has short
      > > vowel, do you spell the MS word for "eel" in the same way, only it
      > > somehow has a long vowel instead?
      > > I make my assumptions based on my knowledge of the several germlangs
      > > that I consult in developing Folksprak, and because I've known how
      > you
      > > do things for long enough. But someone without such knowledge might
      > > make different assumptions. (Maybe a dutch speaker would assume that
      > > "an" had a long vowel like "aan" in Dutch).
      > >
      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > F�rst on latest Suras af de Koran in MS
      > > >
      > > > Sura 1: Al-Fatihah
      > > >
      > > > 1. In de name af Allah, de Barmhertige, de Genadige. 2. Al lof
      > > > is for Allah, de Her af de werlde. 3. De Barmhertige, de
      > Genadige. 4.
      > > > Meister af de Jungest Dag. 5. Alene Ju wi bede on alene Ju wi
      > > > beggele for help. 6. Bringe us up de richt pad. 7. De pad af dem
      > an
      > > > dat Ji have geved g�nste, nik dat af dem up dat have komd neder
      > �vel,
      > > > on okso nik af de irrendes.
      > > >
      > > > Sura 114: An-Naas (de mennische)
      > > >
      > > > 1. In de name af Allah de Barmhertige, de Genadige. 2. Sege: "Ig
      > s�ke
      > > > miin tofl�cht bi de Her af de mennische, 3. de K�ng af de
      > mennische,
      > > > 4. de God af de mennische. 5. So He kan make mi los af de �vel
      > af de
      > > > D�vel's inblosing 6. dat flispere in de herte af de mennische
      > > > 7. fran de middel af de djinn on mennische
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ingmar
      > > >
      > >
      >
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