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Vocabulary

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  • atamskuuk
    Hello again. I haven t really looked at the most recent list of the vocabulary or anything, but I did take a look at the way you guys make up words of the
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
      Hello again.

      I haven't really looked at the most recent list of the vocabulary or
      anything, but I did take a look at the way you guys "make up" words of
      the Folkspråk vocabulary.

      So some of the words I try to "folkspråkize" here may already be a
      part of the vocabulary, but then we could perhaps see this as a topic
      for discussing these certain words.

      A word that has caught my interest is the word that in English is
      "or". In Scandy it's "eller", in Faroese it's "ella", in Icelandic
      it's "eða", and in German and Dutch it's "oder" and "of".

      As you see, it's "oder" in German and "eða" in Icelandic. They both
      have the d/ð. In Swedish, Norweigan and Danish, it's "eller", so they
      have the beginning e of the Icelandic eða and the ending er of the
      German oder.

      This made me wonder if the word earlier has been something like "eðer"
      or "eder" in Scandy before, which would bring it closer to the German
      "oder", but still sustain the characteristics of the Icelandic "eða"
      (as modern Icelandic looks almost thesame as all the Nordic Languages
      did a long time ago).

      The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
      oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
      pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.

      I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
      that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
      by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
      only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
      turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
      strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.

      Then we have the Dutch, which instead has got an f, neither a d/ð or
      an l, which I really have no explaination at all for, so I'll just say
      they're a little alien, and we shouldn't care about them when
      comparing the words to make a new one, as it's the only one with the
      f, which makes us count Dutch out.

      Thus we have this:

      Two languages where it starts with an o; English (or) and German (oder)
      Three languages where it starts with an e; Scandy (eller), Icelandic
      (eða) and Faroese (ella)

      I know the Scandy all count as one, but I wouldn't count Icelandic or
      Faroese into their group, as they've changed less over time, and as
      you see both are diffrent.

      Then we have two languages where the consonant that follows is a d/ð;
      German and Icelandic. I'd count the English as a short version of "oðer".
      And two languages with l; Scandy and Faroese.

      Then we have two languages where it ends with er; German and Scandy
      (I'll count in English because of the same reason this time as well).
      And two where it ends with an a; Icelandic and Faroese.

      As it is, the "parts" are: o/e, d/l, a/er.

      First of all, I believe a German person would have a harder time
      understanding something like "olla" than a Scandy person would
      understand something like "eder", so I think I've come to a
      conclusion, which is a mix most of the people would probably
      understand, at least in a context: "eder".

      Now, this topic should work thesame for everyone else of y'all. You
      pick a certain word and have a look at it, to come up with a good
      Folkspråk equivalent. Of course you can "folkspråkize" several words
      in one post.

      And you should obviously comment other's suggestions if you want to.
    • Peter Collier
      I ve never considered the etymoloy of or, so I may be talking out of ther wrong orifice here, but I had always imagined de oder and en other/either to
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
        I've never considered the etymoloy of "or," so I may be talking out of ther
        wrong orifice here, but I had always imagined de "oder" and en
        "other/either" to be cognate, the 3 would both also fit quite nicely with ic
        "eða". No idea where "or" fits into that.

        The nl "of" (/of/, /ov/ ?) may have come from /oT/ or /oD/,which would tie
        in with the above (again, i don't know - just guessing). I believe /f/ < >
        /T/ is quite a common sound change. That would have to predate dutch's /T/ >
        /d/ shift of course.

        No idea about a /d/ < > /l/ relationship. Seems unlikely to me because the
        articulation is so different, although stranger things have happened. My
        starting asumption would be eller/ella aren't related to the others. /l/ and
        /r/ are are little closer - maybe there's a link between eller and or? Quite
        a few English words of Norse origin thanks to the Danelaw.



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
        To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:53 PM
        Subject: [folkspraak] Vocabulary


        A word that has caught my interest is the word that in English is
        "or". In Scandy it's "eller", in Faroese it's "ella", in Icelandic
        it's "eða", and in German and Dutch it's "oder" and "of".

        As you see, it's "oder" in German and "eða" in Icelandic. They both
        have the d/ð. In Swedish, Norweigan and Danish, it's "eller", so they
        have the beginning e of the Icelandic eða and the ending er of the
        German oder.

        This made me wonder if the word earlier has been something like "eðer"
        or "eder" in Scandy before, which would bring it closer to the German
        "oder", but still sustain the characteristics of the Icelandic "eða"
        (as modern Icelandic looks almost thesame as all the Nordic Languages
        did a long time ago).

        The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
        oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
        pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.

        I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
        that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
        by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
        only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
        turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
        strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.

        Then we have the Dutch, which instead has got an f, neither a d/ð or
        an l, which I really have no explaination at all for, so I'll just say
        they're a little alien, and we shouldn't care about them when
        comparing the words to make a new one, as it's the only one with the
        f, which makes us count Dutch out.

        Thus we have this:

        Two languages where it starts with an o; English (or) and German (oder)
        Three languages where it starts with an e; Scandy (eller), Icelandic
        (eða) and Faroese (ella)

        I know the Scandy all count as one, but I wouldn't count Icelandic or
        Faroese into their group, as they've changed less over time, and as
        you see both are diffrent.

        Then we have two languages where the consonant that follows is a d/ð;
        German and Icelandic. I'd count the English as a short version of "oðer".
        And two languages with l; Scandy and Faroese.

        Then we have two languages where it ends with er; German and Scandy
        (I'll count in English because of the same reason this time as well).
        And two where it ends with an a; Icelandic and Faroese.

        As it is, the "parts" are: o/e, d/l, a/er.
      • atamskuuk
        Well, do you think eder would be a good Folkspråk version? ... of ther ... with ic ... would tie ... /f/ ... dutch s /T/ ... because the ... happened.
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
          Well, do you think "eder" would be a good Folkspråk version?

          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Collier" <petecollier@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I've never considered the etymoloy of "or," so I may be talking out
          of ther
          > wrong orifice here, but I had always imagined de "oder" and en
          > "other/either" to be cognate, the 3 would both also fit quite nicely
          with ic
          > "eða". No idea where "or" fits into that.
          >
          > The nl "of" (/of/, /ov/ ?) may have come from /oT/ or /oD/,which
          would tie
          > in with the above (again, i don't know - just guessing). I believe
          /f/ < >
          > /T/ is quite a common sound change. That would have to predate
          dutch's /T/ >
          > /d/ shift of course.
          >
          > No idea about a /d/ < > /l/ relationship. Seems unlikely to me
          because the
          > articulation is so different, although stranger things have
          happened. My
          > starting asumption would be eller/ella aren't related to the others.
          /l/ and
          > /r/ are are little closer - maybe there's a link between eller and
          or? Quite
          > a few English words of Norse origin thanks to the Danelaw.
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
          > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:53 PM
          > Subject: [folkspraak] Vocabulary
          >
          >
          > A word that has caught my interest is the word that in English is
          > "or". In Scandy it's "eller", in Faroese it's "ella", in Icelandic
          > it's "eða", and in German and Dutch it's "oder" and "of".
          >
          > As you see, it's "oder" in German and "eða" in Icelandic. They both
          > have the d/ð. In Swedish, Norweigan and Danish, it's "eller", so they
          > have the beginning e of the Icelandic eða and the ending er of the
          > German oder.
          >
          > This made me wonder if the word earlier has been something like "eðer"
          > or "eder" in Scandy before, which would bring it closer to the German
          > "oder", but still sustain the characteristics of the Icelandic "eða"
          > (as modern Icelandic looks almost thesame as all the Nordic Languages
          > did a long time ago).
          >
          > The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
          > oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
          > pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.
          >
          > I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
          > that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
          > by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
          > only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
          > turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
          > strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.
          >
          > Then we have the Dutch, which instead has got an f, neither a d/ð or
          > an l, which I really have no explaination at all for, so I'll just say
          > they're a little alien, and we shouldn't care about them when
          > comparing the words to make a new one, as it's the only one with the
          > f, which makes us count Dutch out.
          >
          > Thus we have this:
          >
          > Two languages where it starts with an o; English (or) and German (oder)
          > Three languages where it starts with an e; Scandy (eller), Icelandic
          > (eða) and Faroese (ella)
          >
          > I know the Scandy all count as one, but I wouldn't count Icelandic or
          > Faroese into their group, as they've changed less over time, and as
          > you see both are diffrent.
          >
          > Then we have two languages where the consonant that follows is a d/ð;
          > German and Icelandic. I'd count the English as a short version of
          "oðer".
          > And two languages with l; Scandy and Faroese.
          >
          > Then we have two languages where it ends with er; German and Scandy
          > (I'll count in English because of the same reason this time as well).
          > And two where it ends with an a; Icelandic and Faroese.
          >
          > As it is, the "parts" are: o/e, d/l, a/er.
          >
        • Peter Collier
          ... From: atamskuuk To: Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:16 PM Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
            To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:16 PM
            Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary


            Well, do you think "eder" would be a good Folkspråk version?



            If my inane assumptions regarding the cognates are close to reality, I
            suppose so - that or /eDer/. Not sure whether this group goes with the
            original Gmc /D/ or the /d/ that developed in high and low German?
          • atamskuuk
            What s the difference?
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
              What's the difference?

              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Collier" <petecollier@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
              > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:16 PM
              > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary
              >
              >
              > Well, do you think "eder" would be a good Folkspråk version?
              >
              >
              >
              > If my inane assumptions regarding the cognates are close to reality, I
              > suppose so - that or /eDer/. Not sure whether this group goes with the
              > original Gmc /D/ or the /d/ that developed in high and low German?
              >
            • Peter Collier
              /D/ and /T/ are xsampa symbols, used in place of the IPA which is hard to reproduce on email. IPA for /D/ is a barred d, /T/ is the IPA theta. /D/ is a voiced
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                /D/ and /T/ are xsampa symbols, used in place of the IPA which is hard to
                reproduce on email. IPA for /D/ is a barred d, /T/ is the IPA theta.

                /D/ is a voiced fricative, the phoneme at the start of English words like
                "then" and "that".
                /d/ is a voiced plosive, the phoneme at he start of words like "day" and
                "Dortmund".

                The unvoiced phonemes are /T/ ("think", "thin") and /t/ ("trinken", "table")

                There was a sound shift in High German (German, Swiss, Luxemburgish) an Low
                German (Low Saxon, Dutch) that saw /T/ change to /d/, which didn't affect
                the other Germanic languages.



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
                To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:51 PM
                Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary


                What's the difference?

                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Collier" <petecollier@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
                > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:16 PM
                > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary
                >
                >
                > Well, do you think "eder" would be a good Folkspråk version?
                >
                >
                >
                > If my inane assumptions regarding the cognates are close to reality, I
                > suppose so - that or /eDer/. Not sure whether this group goes with the
                > original Gmc /D/ or the /d/ that developed in high and low German?
                >




                Browse the draft word lists!
                http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html

                Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • atamskuuk
                Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don t think we should use /D/ unless we have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we should rather use a
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                  Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don't think we should use /D/ unless we
                  have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we
                  should rather use a normal /d/, spelled d.

                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Collier" <petecollier@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > /D/ and /T/ are xsampa symbols, used in place of the IPA which is
                  hard to
                  > reproduce on email. IPA for /D/ is a barred d, /T/ is the IPA theta.
                  >
                  > /D/ is a voiced fricative, the phoneme at the start of English words
                  like
                  > "then" and "that".
                  > /d/ is a voiced plosive, the phoneme at he start of words like "day"
                  and
                  > "Dortmund".
                  >
                  > The unvoiced phonemes are /T/ ("think", "thin") and /t/ ("trinken",
                  "table")
                  >
                  > There was a sound shift in High German (German, Swiss, Luxemburgish)
                  an Low
                  > German (Low Saxon, Dutch) that saw /T/ change to /d/, which didn't
                  affect
                  > the other Germanic languages.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
                  > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:51 PM
                  > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary
                  >
                  >
                  > What's the difference?
                  >
                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Collier" <petecollier@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@>
                  > > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:16 PM
                  > > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Well, do you think "eder" would be a good Folkspråk version?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > If my inane assumptions regarding the cognates are close to reality, I
                  > > suppose so - that or /eDer/. Not sure whether this group goes
                  with the
                  > > original Gmc /D/ or the /d/ that developed in high and low German?
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Browse the draft word lists!
                  > http://www.onelist.com/files/folkspraak/
                  > http://www.langmaker.com/folkspraak/volcab.html
                  >
                  > Browse Folkspraak-related links!
                  > http://www.onelist.com/links/folkspraak/
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                • David Parke
                  Well my preference is for only basing Folkspaak words on words that share an etymological relationship. I know some other members make words from mixes of
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                    Well my preference is for only basing Folkspaak words on words that
                    share an etymological relationship. I know some other members make
                    words from mixes of various words which are not related -- the
                    "crosswords" of Ingmar Roerdinkholder's Middelsprake are a good example.

                    My objection to "crosswords", is where do they end? Often a language
                    will have multiple words for the same meaning, and words with multiple
                    meanings that only partially overlap with the cognate words in the
                    other germanic languages.
                    For example take the English word "room". You could also say
                    "chamber". And German has words such as "Zimmer", "Raum", "Kammer" and
                    "Saal". EN room is directly cognate (shares an etymological
                    relationship with) DE Raum. But EN room and DE Raum do not mean
                    exactly the same thing, although in some areas they are equivalent.
                    Often DE Raum would be better translated into EN "space".

                    When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                    together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or Raum and
                    Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and Zimmer and
                    Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?

                    Crosswords appear to me to be based on very superficial examination of
                    languages and their vocabulary. (For example looking up "Room" in an
                    English-German dictionary and taking only the first word you see --
                    likely to be Zimmer). It doesn't examine the way word related words
                    have complicated differences and overlaps in meaning. And it doesn't
                    examine the way words often have multiple meanings or idioms. For
                    example DE Kammer is related to EN chamber (but maybe used with a
                    subtly different meaning or context in the two languages). DE Zimmer
                    is in fact directly cognate to EN timber which has a very different
                    meaning -- except in the context of DE Zimmermann, meaning carpenter.

                    So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                    that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                    example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                    evolutions from Proto-Germanic *rûman. I then look for the meanings
                    that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                    or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                    probably will not be suitable for FS.

                    The FS word will have the meanings shared by majority of source
                    languages. So for the FS word rûm, the EN translation would be
                    something like "n. = room, chamber, compartment of space marked off by
                    walls within a building, hall, space, two- or three-dimensional area".


                    As regarding the word for "or". Of the examples you have cited, only
                    EN or and DE oder have a definite etymological connexion. By throwing
                    NL "of" into the mix, it ignores that NL "of" is actually directly
                    cognate to EN if and DE ob. NL "of" can, in addition to being used
                    like EN or, be used like DE ob and EN if (when used in the sense of
                    "whether"). The Scandinavian words are related to EN else.
                    I would normally allow words that are represented only by English and
                    German forms, even if not represented in other Germlangs, because
                    these 2 languages are by far the largest and widest know languages.
                    This is a fairly rare occurrence, because if a word is represented in
                    both German and English, there is normally a very good chance that
                    there will be a related word in other Germanic languages.
                    The case of "or" would be one of those cases where, I would allow a
                    word based on just DE and EN. So my suggest word for "or" would be
                    "oder" or perhaps "o'er"

                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello again.
                    >
                    > I haven't really looked at the most recent list of the vocabulary or
                    > anything, but I did take a look at the way you guys "make up" words of
                    > the Folkspråk vocabulary.
                    >
                    > So some of the words I try to "folkspråkize" here may already be a
                    > part of the vocabulary, but then we could perhaps see this as a topic
                    > for discussing these certain words.
                    >
                    > A word that has caught my interest is the word that in English is
                    > "or". In Scandy it's "eller", in Faroese it's "ella", in Icelandic
                    > it's "eða", and in German and Dutch it's "oder" and "of".
                    >
                    > As you see, it's "oder" in German and "eða" in Icelandic. They both
                    > have the d/ð. In Swedish, Norweigan and Danish, it's "eller", so they
                    > have the beginning e of the Icelandic eða and the ending er of the
                    > German oder.
                    >
                    > This made me wonder if the word earlier has been something like "eðer"
                    > or "eder" in Scandy before, which would bring it closer to the German
                    > "oder", but still sustain the characteristics of the Icelandic "eða"
                    > (as modern Icelandic looks almost thesame as all the Nordic Languages
                    > did a long time ago).
                    >
                    > The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
                    > oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
                    > pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.
                    >
                    > I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
                    > that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
                    > by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
                    > only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
                    > turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
                    > strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.
                    >
                    > Then we have the Dutch, which instead has got an f, neither a d/ð or
                    > an l, which I really have no explaination at all for, so I'll just say
                    > they're a little alien, and we shouldn't care about them when
                    > comparing the words to make a new one, as it's the only one with the
                    > f, which makes us count Dutch out.
                    >
                    > Thus we have this:
                    >
                    > Two languages where it starts with an o; English (or) and German (oder)
                    > Three languages where it starts with an e; Scandy (eller), Icelandic
                    > (eða) and Faroese (ella)
                    >
                    > I know the Scandy all count as one, but I wouldn't count Icelandic or
                    > Faroese into their group, as they've changed less over time, and as
                    > you see both are diffrent.
                    >
                    > Then we have two languages where the consonant that follows is a d/ð;
                    > German and Icelandic. I'd count the English as a short version of
                    "oðer".
                    > And two languages with l; Scandy and Faroese.
                    >
                    > Then we have two languages where it ends with er; German and Scandy
                    > (I'll count in English because of the same reason this time as well).
                    > And two where it ends with an a; Icelandic and Faroese.
                    >
                    > As it is, the "parts" are: o/e, d/l, a/er.
                    >
                    > First of all, I believe a German person would have a harder time
                    > understanding something like "olla" than a Scandy person would
                    > understand something like "eder", so I think I've come to a
                    > conclusion, which is a mix most of the people would probably
                    > understand, at least in a context: "eder".
                    >
                    > Now, this topic should work thesame for everyone else of y'all. You
                    > pick a certain word and have a look at it, to come up with a good
                    > Folkspråk equivalent. Of course you can "folkspråkize" several words
                    > in one post.
                    >
                    > And you should obviously comment other's suggestions if you want to.
                    >
                  • Peter Collier
                    To a great extent of course, how any language is *written* is irrelevant. All the spelling shows you is how various monks half a millenium ago though it best
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                      To a great extent of course, how any language is *written* is irrelevant.
                      All the spelling shows you is how various monks half a millenium ago though
                      it best to try and write a Germanic sound with a Roman letter. What is
                      important is the underlying sounds, hence the use of /f@'netik
                      tran'skrip,Snz/ .

                      With regards to /D/, the icelandic ð (eth) is the character in icelandic,
                      Old English and a few others. Modern English of course uses the grapheme th
                      for that sound (as well as /T/), some languages use dh.

                      Reproducing Eth is only a problem if you don't have an icelandic keyboard
                      :). However, it would look strange to most eyes these days, as icelandic is
                      the only language which has retained the letter. Same goes for the letter
                      thorn (þ), which icelandic has also kept but nowhere else has. Shame, as it
                      would be quite useful in modern English.

                      You need to match your writing system to the sounds of the language, not the
                      other way around. But if you want a one-to-one phoneme/grapheme
                      correspondence, you're going to need a heck of a lot more letters than 26
                      letters for your average Germanic language. Including diphthongs and
                      triphthongs, English has alone about 20 vowels(?)!

                      PMC

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
                      To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:20 PM
                      Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary


                      Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don't think we should use /D/ unless we
                      have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we
                      should rather use a normal /d/, spelled d.
                    • atamskuuk
                      If you read the end of the post, I also tried to make it as easy as possible to understand in a context for a speaker of any Germanic language. In Swedish,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                        If you read the end of the post, I also tried to make it as easy as
                        possible to understand in a context for a speaker of any Germanic
                        language.

                        In Swedish, "rum" has thesame meaning as English room, while in Danish
                        and Norweigan it means space, like in German. Swedish has a similar
                        word for this - rymd. Probably based on an umlaut.

                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well my preference is for only basing Folkspaak words on words that
                        > share an etymological relationship. I know some other members make
                        > words from mixes of various words which are not related -- the
                        > "crosswords" of Ingmar Roerdinkholder's Middelsprake are a good example.
                        >
                        > My objection to "crosswords", is where do they end? Often a language
                        > will have multiple words for the same meaning, and words with multiple
                        > meanings that only partially overlap with the cognate words in the
                        > other germanic languages.
                        > For example take the English word "room". You could also say
                        > "chamber". And German has words such as "Zimmer", "Raum", "Kammer" and
                        > "Saal". EN room is directly cognate (shares an etymological
                        > relationship with) DE Raum. But EN room and DE Raum do not mean
                        > exactly the same thing, although in some areas they are equivalent.
                        > Often DE Raum would be better translated into EN "space".
                        >
                        > When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                        > together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or Raum and
                        > Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and Zimmer and
                        > Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?
                        >
                        > Crosswords appear to me to be based on very superficial examination of
                        > languages and their vocabulary. (For example looking up "Room" in an
                        > English-German dictionary and taking only the first word you see --
                        > likely to be Zimmer). It doesn't examine the way word related words
                        > have complicated differences and overlaps in meaning. And it doesn't
                        > examine the way words often have multiple meanings or idioms. For
                        > example DE Kammer is related to EN chamber (but maybe used with a
                        > subtly different meaning or context in the two languages). DE Zimmer
                        > is in fact directly cognate to EN timber which has a very different
                        > meaning -- except in the context of DE Zimmermann, meaning carpenter.
                        >
                        > So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                        > that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                        > example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                        > evolutions from Proto-Germanic *rûman. I then look for the meanings
                        > that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                        > or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                        > probably will not be suitable for FS.
                        >
                        > The FS word will have the meanings shared by majority of source
                        > languages. So for the FS word rûm, the EN translation would be
                        > something like "n. = room, chamber, compartment of space marked off by
                        > walls within a building, hall, space, two- or three-dimensional area".
                        >
                        >
                        > As regarding the word for "or". Of the examples you have cited, only
                        > EN or and DE oder have a definite etymological connexion. By throwing
                        > NL "of" into the mix, it ignores that NL "of" is actually directly
                        > cognate to EN if and DE ob. NL "of" can, in addition to being used
                        > like EN or, be used like DE ob and EN if (when used in the sense of
                        > "whether"). The Scandinavian words are related to EN else.
                        > I would normally allow words that are represented only by English and
                        > German forms, even if not represented in other Germlangs, because
                        > these 2 languages are by far the largest and widest know languages.
                        > This is a fairly rare occurrence, because if a word is represented in
                        > both German and English, there is normally a very good chance that
                        > there will be a related word in other Germanic languages.
                        > The case of "or" would be one of those cases where, I would allow a
                        > word based on just DE and EN. So my suggest word for "or" would be
                        > "oder" or perhaps "o'er"
                        >
                        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello again.
                        > >
                        > > I haven't really looked at the most recent list of the vocabulary or
                        > > anything, but I did take a look at the way you guys "make up" words of
                        > > the Folkspråk vocabulary.
                        > >
                        > > So some of the words I try to "folkspråkize" here may already be a
                        > > part of the vocabulary, but then we could perhaps see this as a topic
                        > > for discussing these certain words.
                        > >
                        > > A word that has caught my interest is the word that in English is
                        > > "or". In Scandy it's "eller", in Faroese it's "ella", in Icelandic
                        > > it's "eða", and in German and Dutch it's "oder" and "of".
                        > >
                        > > As you see, it's "oder" in German and "eða" in Icelandic. They both
                        > > have the d/ð. In Swedish, Norweigan and Danish, it's "eller", so they
                        > > have the beginning e of the Icelandic eða and the ending er of the
                        > > German oder.
                        > >
                        > > This made me wonder if the word earlier has been something like "eðer"
                        > > or "eder" in Scandy before, which would bring it closer to the German
                        > > "oder", but still sustain the characteristics of the Icelandic "eða"
                        > > (as modern Icelandic looks almost thesame as all the Nordic Languages
                        > > did a long time ago).
                        > >
                        > > The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
                        > > oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
                        > > pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
                        > > that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
                        > > by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
                        > > only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
                        > > turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
                        > > strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.
                        > >
                        > > Then we have the Dutch, which instead has got an f, neither a d/ð or
                        > > an l, which I really have no explaination at all for, so I'll just say
                        > > they're a little alien, and we shouldn't care about them when
                        > > comparing the words to make a new one, as it's the only one with the
                        > > f, which makes us count Dutch out.
                        > >
                        > > Thus we have this:
                        > >
                        > > Two languages where it starts with an o; English (or) and German
                        (oder)
                        > > Three languages where it starts with an e; Scandy (eller), Icelandic
                        > > (eða) and Faroese (ella)
                        > >
                        > > I know the Scandy all count as one, but I wouldn't count Icelandic or
                        > > Faroese into their group, as they've changed less over time, and as
                        > > you see both are diffrent.
                        > >
                        > > Then we have two languages where the consonant that follows is a d/ð;
                        > > German and Icelandic. I'd count the English as a short version of
                        > "oðer".
                        > > And two languages with l; Scandy and Faroese.
                        > >
                        > > Then we have two languages where it ends with er; German and Scandy
                        > > (I'll count in English because of the same reason this time as well).
                        > > And two where it ends with an a; Icelandic and Faroese.
                        > >
                        > > As it is, the "parts" are: o/e, d/l, a/er.
                        > >
                        > > First of all, I believe a German person would have a harder time
                        > > understanding something like "olla" than a Scandy person would
                        > > understand something like "eder", so I think I've come to a
                        > > conclusion, which is a mix most of the people would probably
                        > > understand, at least in a context: "eder".
                        > >
                        > > Now, this topic should work thesame for everyone else of y'all. You
                        > > pick a certain word and have a look at it, to come up with a good
                        > > Folkspråk equivalent. Of course you can "folkspråkize" several words
                        > > in one post.
                        > >
                        > > And you should obviously comment other's suggestions if you want to.
                        > >
                        >
                      • atamskuuk
                        Actually, there are more languages using both eth and thorn or at least one of them. There are also some languages using an eth where the lower case form looks
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                          Actually, there are more languages using both eth and thorn or at
                          least one of them. There are also some languages using an eth where
                          the lower case form looks like a normal d of the font with a line in
                          it, rather than the more "bent" one.

                          But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant combinations
                          for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both dh and
                          th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.

                          Thus we get "edher"?
                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Collier" <petecollier@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > To a great extent of course, how any language is *written* is
                          irrelevant.
                          > All the spelling shows you is how various monks half a millenium ago
                          though
                          > it best to try and write a Germanic sound with a Roman letter. What is
                          > important is the underlying sounds, hence the use of /f@'netik
                          > tran'skrip,Snz/ .
                          >
                          > With regards to /D/, the icelandic ð (eth) is the character in
                          icelandic,
                          > Old English and a few others. Modern English of course uses the
                          grapheme th
                          > for that sound (as well as /T/), some languages use dh.
                          >
                          > Reproducing Eth is only a problem if you don't have an icelandic
                          keyboard
                          > :). However, it would look strange to most eyes these days, as
                          icelandic is
                          > the only language which has retained the letter. Same goes for the
                          letter
                          > thorn (þ), which icelandic has also kept but nowhere else has.
                          Shame, as it
                          > would be quite useful in modern English.
                          >
                          > You need to match your writing system to the sounds of the language,
                          not the
                          > other way around. But if you want a one-to-one phoneme/grapheme
                          > correspondence, you're going to need a heck of a lot more letters
                          than 26
                          > letters for your average Germanic language. Including diphthongs and
                          > triphthongs, English has alone about 20 vowels(?)!
                          >
                          > PMC
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...>
                          > To: <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:20 PM
                          > Subject: [folkspraak] Re: Vocabulary
                          >
                          >
                          > Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don't think we should use /D/ unless we
                          > have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we
                          > should rather use a normal /d/, spelled d.
                          >
                        • stefichjo
                          ... Hi Adam. ... These links might be interesting for you: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=other&searchmode=none
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello again.

                            Hi Adam.


                            > The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
                            > oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
                            > pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.


                            These links might be interesting for you:

                            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=other&searchmode=none
                            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=or&searchmode=none

                            This confirms your theory. :-)

                            > I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
                            > that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
                            > by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
                            > only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
                            > turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
                            > strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.

                            Maybe (d -> l). In Danish "det" is pronounced almost like "del" (det
                            -> ded -> deð -> del, apparently).

                            I don't write this consonant shift in Folksprak, and I don't create
                            word mixes either. Therefore my word for "or" is "oder" in Folksprak,
                            which coincidentally resembles "oder" in German.

                            > Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don't think we should use /D/ unless we
                            > have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we
                            > should rather use a normal /d/, spelled d.

                            We have agreed on using the Latin alphabet only, like English.

                            A more differentiated and etymology-based way of writing Folksprak is
                            Fůlkspræk (an invention of mine, so nothing "official"). Using the
                            Fůlkspræk alphabet "oder" is written "ođĕr". Since this way of writing
                            is rather awquard, I thought, why not reduce the Folksprak alphabet to
                            the Latin alphabet right from the start? And apparently, it works.

                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:

                            > When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                            > together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or Raum and
                            > Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and Zimmer and
                            > Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?

                            Hi David.

                            That's my point, too. And that's why I don't crosswords either.

                            Crosswording could end in forms like you have described. This way of
                            forming words reminds me of a set of words in Esperanto. The stem of
                            the verb meaning "to glide" (DE "schlittern") is "glit". I don't want
                            to have this kind of words in Folksprak, simply because I think this
                            is not neccessary.

                            > So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                            > that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                            > example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                            > evolutions from Proto-Germanic *rûman. I then look for the meanings
                            > that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                            > or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                            > probably will not be suitable for FS.

                            I think these words ("rum" and "timmer") should be Folksprak words. We
                            need to define their meaning if neccessary. But we shouldn't drop
                            those words.

                            > I would normally allow words that are represented only by English and
                            > German forms, even if not represented in other Germlangs, because
                            > these 2 languages are by far the largest and widest know languages.


                            I must admit, English and German are the most importan languages in
                            opinion, too. :-D

                            Yet having a cognate among all Germlangs is perfect as a criterion.

                            > This is a fairly rare occurrence, because if a word is represented in
                            > both German and English, there is normally a very good chance that
                            > there will be a related word in other Germanic languages.
                            > The case of "or" would be one of those cases where, I would allow a
                            > word based on just DE and EN. So my suggest word for "or" would be
                            > "oder" or perhaps "o'er"


                            I think a word like "o'er" would be a sort of Folksprak slang. So, why
                            not...

                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant combinations
                            > for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both dh and
                            > th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.

                            They are easy to distinguish. Any "th-" at the beginning of a pronoun
                            or a combination with a pronoun is pronounced "dh-" /D/, whereas the
                            rest is pronounced /T/.

                            thou
                            these
                            them
                            though

                            But I write "t" and "d" in Folksprak.


                            Bye,
                            Stephan
                          • atamskuuk
                            Heh. :] I took a thought about what you said about other having something to do with it as well. You other me You, otherwise me . Otherwise is
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                              Heh. :]

                              I took a thought about what you said about "other" having something to
                              do with it as well. "You other me" > "You, otherwise me". "Otherwise"
                              is actually "ellers" in Norweigan, and or is "eller".

                              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello again.
                              >
                              > Hi Adam.
                              >
                              >
                              > > The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
                              > > oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
                              > > pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.
                              >
                              >
                              > These links might be interesting for you:
                              >
                              > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=other&searchmode=none
                              > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=or&searchmode=none
                              >
                              > This confirms your theory. :-)
                              >
                              > > I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
                              > > that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
                              > > by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from l; you
                              > > only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
                              > > turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
                              > > strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.
                              >
                              > Maybe (d -> l). In Danish "det" is pronounced almost like "del" (det
                              > -> ded -> deð -> del, apparently).
                              >
                              > I don't write this consonant shift in Folksprak, and I don't create
                              > word mixes either. Therefore my word for "or" is "oder" in Folksprak,
                              > which coincidentally resembles "oder" in German.
                              >
                              > > Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don't think we should use /D/ unless we
                              > > have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we
                              > > should rather use a normal /d/, spelled d.
                              >
                              > We have agreed on using the Latin alphabet only, like English.
                              >
                              > A more differentiated and etymology-based way of writing Folksprak is
                              > Fůlkspræk (an invention of mine, so nothing "official"). Using the
                              > Fůlkspræk alphabet "oder" is written "ođĕr". Since
                              this way of writing
                              > is rather awquard, I thought, why not reduce the Folksprak alphabet to
                              > the Latin alphabet right from the start? And apparently, it works.
                              >
                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                              >
                              > > When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                              > > together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or Raum and
                              > > Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and Zimmer and
                              > > Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?
                              >
                              > Hi David.
                              >
                              > That's my point, too. And that's why I don't crosswords either.
                              >
                              > Crosswording could end in forms like you have described. This way of
                              > forming words reminds me of a set of words in Esperanto. The stem of
                              > the verb meaning "to glide" (DE "schlittern") is "glit". I don't want
                              > to have this kind of words in Folksprak, simply because I think this
                              > is not neccessary.
                              >
                              > > So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                              > > that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                              > > example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                              > > evolutions from Proto-Germanic *rûman. I then look for the meanings
                              > > that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                              > > or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                              > > probably will not be suitable for FS.
                              >
                              > I think these words ("rum" and "timmer") should be Folksprak words. We
                              > need to define their meaning if neccessary. But we shouldn't drop
                              > those words.
                              >
                              > > I would normally allow words that are represented only by English and
                              > > German forms, even if not represented in other Germlangs, because
                              > > these 2 languages are by far the largest and widest know languages.
                              >
                              >
                              > I must admit, English and German are the most importan languages in
                              > opinion, too. :-D
                              >
                              > Yet having a cognate among all Germlangs is perfect as a criterion.
                              >
                              > > This is a fairly rare occurrence, because if a word is represented in
                              > > both German and English, there is normally a very good chance that
                              > > there will be a related word in other Germanic languages.
                              > > The case of "or" would be one of those cases where, I would allow a
                              > > word based on just DE and EN. So my suggest word for "or" would be
                              > > "oder" or perhaps "o'er"
                              >
                              >
                              > I think a word like "o'er" would be a sort of Folksprak slang. So, why
                              > not...
                              >
                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant combinations
                              > > for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both dh and
                              > > th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.
                              >
                              > They are easy to distinguish. Any "th-" at the beginning of a pronoun
                              > or a combination with a pronoun is pronounced "dh-" /D/, whereas the
                              > rest is pronounced /T/.
                              >
                              > thou
                              > these
                              > them
                              > though
                              >
                              > But I write "t" and "d" in Folksprak.
                              >
                              >
                              > Bye,
                              > Stephan
                              >
                            • David Parke
                              ... Hi Stefan. There is one place where cross-words may have their place, and that is with onomatopoeic words. There are words that sound like what they
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                                >
                                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                                > > together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or Raum and
                                > > Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and Zimmer and
                                > > Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?
                                >
                                > Hi David.
                                >
                                > That's my point, too. And that's why I don't crosswords either.
                                >
                                > Crosswording could end in forms like you have described. This way of
                                > forming words reminds me of a set of words in Esperanto. The stem of
                                > the verb meaning "to glide" (DE "schlittern") is "glit". I don't want
                                > to have this kind of words in Folksprak, simply because I think this
                                > is not neccessary.

                                Hi Stefan.

                                There is one place where cross-words may have their place, and that is
                                with onomatopoeic words. There are words that sound like what they
                                describe (such as EN "pop" or "woof"). Often with these words you find
                                a bunch of words in the germlangs with an obscure etymological
                                relationship that mostly resemble each other because they resemble the
                                same sound. In such cases, probably cross-wording would be OK.


                                >
                                > > So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                                > > that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                                > > example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                                > > evolutions from Proto-Germanic *rûman. I then look for the meanings
                                > > that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                                > > or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                                > > probably will not be suitable for FS.
                                >
                                > I think these words ("rum" and "timmer") should be Folksprak words. We
                                > need to define their meaning if neccessary. But we shouldn't drop
                                > those words.

                                "Rum" should definitely be in FS, but it might not mean exactly the
                                same as in English Room or German Raum (but probably similar to both).
                                FS timmer should probably mean something like "wood", but not like DE
                                Zimmer. (except in the sense of in Zimmermann)
                                "Timmer" would probably the best candidate of a FS word for "wood"
                                since the other alternatives are not as common among the germlangs.
                                Scand tre/trä/trae is cognate to EN tree with a different (yet
                                overlapping meaning). DE Holz and NL hout are cognate. EN wood seems
                                to have no cognates in the other germlangs. So nothing is represented
                                in the majority. Timmer/Zimmer/Timber etc are represented in most of
                                the germlangs yet with differing meanings/contexts but the commonest
                                under-lying thread of meaning seems to be "wood".

                                >
                                > > I would normally allow words that are represented only by English and
                                > > German forms, even if not represented in other Germlangs, because
                                > > these 2 languages are by far the largest and widest know languages.
                                >
                                >
                                > I must admit, English and German are the most importan languages in
                                > opinion, too. :-D
                                >
                                > Yet having a cognate among all Germlangs is perfect as a criterion.

                                Nice when it happens, sadly not always possible.

                                >
                                > > This is a fairly rare occurrence, because if a word is represented in
                                > > both German and English, there is normally a very good chance that
                                > > there will be a related word in other Germanic languages.
                                > > The case of "or" would be one of those cases where, I would allow a
                                > > word based on just DE and EN. So my suggest word for "or" would be
                                > > "oder" or perhaps "o'er"
                                >
                                >
                                > I think a word like "o'er" would be a sort of Folksprak slang. So, why
                                > not...
                                >

                                I'm really in favour of "oder". Coincidentally just like the German
                                word. But often I find FS words which are exactly like the Dutch word,
                                or the norwegian word, of English word for example.


                                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant combinations
                                > > for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both dh and
                                > > th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.
                                >
                                > They are easy to distinguish. Any "th-" at the beginning of a pronoun
                                > or a combination with a pronoun is pronounced "dh-" /D/, whereas the
                                > rest is pronounced /T/.
                                >
                                > thou
                                > these
                                > them
                                > though
                                >
                                > But I write "t" and "d" in Folksprak.
                                >
                                >
                                > Bye,
                                > Stephan
                                >
                              • David Parke
                                ... EN Other is directly cognate to DE ander, NL ander, Scandy andre/andra etc. It s lost the n due to the North Sea Germanic nasal spirant change. I think
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Heh. :]
                                  >
                                  > I took a thought about what you said about "other" having something to
                                  > do with it as well. "You other me" > "You, otherwise me". "Otherwise"
                                  > is actually "ellers" in Norweigan, and or is "eller".

                                  EN Other is directly cognate to DE ander, NL ander, Scandy andre/andra
                                  etc. It's lost the "n" due to the North Sea Germanic nasal spirant change.

                                  I think the scandy "eller" is in fact cognate with EN else.

                                  >
                                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello again.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Adam.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > The English "or", could be thought of as a short version of German
                                  > > > oder, thus "o'r", which is even easier explained if it was earlier
                                  > > > pronounced "oðer", which makes it easier to skip the d/ð.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > These links might be interesting for you:
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=other&searchmode=none
                                  > > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=or&searchmode=none
                                  > >
                                  > > This confirms your theory. :-)
                                  > >
                                  > > > I don't know why it became l instead of d/ð in Scandy, but the fact
                                  > > > that it also appears in Faroese is probably because of its influence
                                  > > > by Danish, thus a Scandy language. Now, ð is not that far from
                                  l; you
                                  > > > only have to move your tounge a little when pronouncing ð to make it
                                  > > > turn into an l, which could explain the Scandy transformation and
                                  > > > strengthen my theory of old Scandy "eðer" or such.
                                  > >
                                  > > Maybe (d -> l). In Danish "det" is pronounced almost like "del" (det
                                  > > -> ded -> deð -> del, apparently).
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't write this consonant shift in Folksprak, and I don't create
                                  > > word mixes either. Therefore my word for "or" is "oder" in Folksprak,
                                  > > which coincidentally resembles "oder" in German.
                                  > >
                                  > > > Oh, as I thought then. Well, I don't think we should use /D/
                                  unless we
                                  > > > have a speciall symbol for it, like icelandic ð. Then I think we
                                  > > > should rather use a normal /d/, spelled d.
                                  > >
                                  > > We have agreed on using the Latin alphabet only, like English.
                                  > >
                                  > > A more differentiated and etymology-based way of writing Folksprak is
                                  > > Fůlkspræk (an invention of mine, so nothing "official").
                                  Using the
                                  > > Fůlkspræk alphabet "oder" is written "ođĕr". Since
                                  > this way of writing
                                  > > is rather awquard, I thought, why not reduce the Folksprak alphabet to
                                  > > the Latin alphabet right from the start? And apparently, it works.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                                  > > > together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or
                                  Raum and
                                  > > > Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and
                                  Zimmer and
                                  > > > Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi David.
                                  > >
                                  > > That's my point, too. And that's why I don't crosswords either.
                                  > >
                                  > > Crosswording could end in forms like you have described. This way of
                                  > > forming words reminds me of a set of words in Esperanto. The stem of
                                  > > the verb meaning "to glide" (DE "schlittern") is "glit". I don't want
                                  > > to have this kind of words in Folksprak, simply because I think this
                                  > > is not neccessary.
                                  > >
                                  > > > So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                                  > > > that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                                  > > > example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                                  > > > evolutions from Proto-Germanic *rûman. I then look for the meanings
                                  > > > that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                                  > > > or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                                  > > > probably will not be suitable for FS.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think these words ("rum" and "timmer") should be Folksprak words. We
                                  > > need to define their meaning if neccessary. But we shouldn't drop
                                  > > those words.
                                  > >
                                  > > > I would normally allow words that are represented only by
                                  English and
                                  > > > German forms, even if not represented in other Germlangs, because
                                  > > > these 2 languages are by far the largest and widest know languages.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I must admit, English and German are the most importan languages in
                                  > > opinion, too. :-D
                                  > >
                                  > > Yet having a cognate among all Germlangs is perfect as a criterion.
                                  > >
                                  > > > This is a fairly rare occurrence, because if a word is
                                  represented in
                                  > > > both German and English, there is normally a very good chance that
                                  > > > there will be a related word in other Germanic languages.
                                  > > > The case of "or" would be one of those cases where, I would allow a
                                  > > > word based on just DE and EN. So my suggest word for "or" would be
                                  > > > "oder" or perhaps "o'er"
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I think a word like "o'er" would be a sort of Folksprak slang. So, why
                                  > > not...
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant combinations
                                  > > > for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both
                                  dh and
                                  > > > th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.
                                  > >
                                  > > They are easy to distinguish. Any "th-" at the beginning of a pronoun
                                  > > or a combination with a pronoun is pronounced "dh-" /D/, whereas the
                                  > > rest is pronounced /T/.
                                  > >
                                  > > thou
                                  > > these
                                  > > them
                                  > > though
                                  > >
                                  > > But I write "t" and "d" in Folksprak.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Bye,
                                  > > Stephan
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • atamskuuk
                                  ... I believe timmer means a speciall type of wood in Swedish. ... I found Dis is to dyr in the wordlist before. I had a good laugh at that, since it looks
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                                    --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
                                    > "Rum" should definitely be in FS, but it might not mean exactly the
                                    > same as in English Room or German Raum (but probably similar to both).
                                    > FS timmer should probably mean something like "wood", but not like DE
                                    > Zimmer. (except in the sense of in Zimmermann)
                                    > "Timmer" would probably the best candidate of a FS word for "wood"
                                    > since the other alternatives are not as common among the germlangs.
                                    > Scand tre/trä/trae is cognate to EN tree with a different (yet
                                    > overlapping meaning). DE Holz and NL hout are cognate. EN wood seems
                                    > to have no cognates in the other germlangs. So nothing is represented
                                    > in the majority. Timmer/Zimmer/Timber etc are represented in most of
                                    > the germlangs yet with differing meanings/contexts but the commonest
                                    > under-lying thread of meaning seems to be "wood".
                                    >

                                    I believe timmer means a speciall type of wood in Swedish.


                                    > I'm really in favour of "oder". Coincidentally just like the German
                                    > word. But often I find FS words which are exactly like the Dutch word,
                                    > or the norwegian word, of English word for example.

                                    I found "Dis is to dyr" in the wordlist before. I had a good laugh at
                                    that, since it looks like a Swedish person joking with English, as it
                                    looks like "This is too dyr", where "dyr" is the only Swedish word and
                                    the rest are English. xD

                                    > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant combinations
                                    > > > for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both
                                    dh and
                                    > > > th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.
                                    > >
                                    > > They are easy to distinguish. Any "th-" at the beginning of a pronoun
                                    > > or a combination with a pronoun is pronounced "dh-" /D/, whereas the
                                    > > rest is pronounced /T/.
                                    > >
                                    > > thou
                                    > > these
                                    > > them
                                    > > though
                                    > >
                                    > > But I write "t" and "d" in Folksprak.

                                    So it would still be oder/eder, and not odher/edher?
                                  • David Parke
                                    ... If it s my dialect of FS (which it may be since those are all valid words in my dialect), then it might look English but would be pronounced somewhat
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                                      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                                      > > "Rum" should definitely be in FS, but it might not mean exactly the
                                      > > same as in English Room or German Raum (but probably similar to both).
                                      > > FS timmer should probably mean something like "wood", but not like DE
                                      > > Zimmer. (except in the sense of in Zimmermann)
                                      > > "Timmer" would probably the best candidate of a FS word for "wood"
                                      > > since the other alternatives are not as common among the germlangs.
                                      > > Scand tre/trä/trae is cognate to EN tree with a different (yet
                                      > > overlapping meaning). DE Holz and NL hout are cognate. EN wood seems
                                      > > to have no cognates in the other germlangs. So nothing is represented
                                      > > in the majority. Timmer/Zimmer/Timber etc are represented in most of
                                      > > the germlangs yet with differing meanings/contexts but the commonest
                                      > > under-lying thread of meaning seems to be "wood".
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > I believe timmer means a speciall type of wood in Swedish.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > I'm really in favour of "oder". Coincidentally just like the German
                                      > > word. But often I find FS words which are exactly like the Dutch word,
                                      > > or the norwegian word, of English word for example.
                                      >
                                      > I found "Dis is to dyr" in the wordlist before. I had a good laugh at
                                      > that, since it looks like a Swedish person joking with English, as it
                                      > looks like "This is too dyr", where "dyr" is the only Swedish word and
                                      > the rest are English. xD

                                      If it's my dialect of FS (which it may be since those are all valid
                                      words in my dialect), then it might look English but would be
                                      pronounced somewhat differently:
                                      [di:s Is to: dy:r].

                                      Incidentally, "is" is also used in Dutch in almost the exact same way
                                      as in English. And "dyr" is also used in Danish (but means both "dear"
                                      and "animal", unlike in SV where they are two distinct words).


                                      >
                                      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > But if we were to use (if we already aren't) consonant
                                      combinations
                                      > > > > for the sounds eth and thorn make, we should at least use both
                                      > dh and
                                      > > > > th, unlike English where you can't tell them apart.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > They are easy to distinguish. Any "th-" at the beginning of a
                                      pronoun
                                      > > > or a combination with a pronoun is pronounced "dh-" /D/, whereas the
                                      > > > rest is pronounced /T/.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > thou
                                      > > > these
                                      > > > them
                                      > > > though
                                      > > >
                                      > > > But I write "t" and "d" in Folksprak.
                                      >
                                      > So it would still be oder/eder, and not odher/edher?
                                      >
                                    • atamskuuk
                                      ... both). ... like DE ... represented ... word, ... I know very well about that, since that is an interesting phenomena I ve thought about. Between Germanic
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 12, 2007
                                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                                        > > > "Rum" should definitely be in FS, but it might not mean exactly the
                                        > > > same as in English Room or German Raum (but probably similar to
                                        both).
                                        > > > FS timmer should probably mean something like "wood", but not
                                        like DE
                                        > > > Zimmer. (except in the sense of in Zimmermann)
                                        > > > "Timmer" would probably the best candidate of a FS word for "wood"
                                        > > > since the other alternatives are not as common among the germlangs.
                                        > > > Scand tre/trä/trae is cognate to EN tree with a different (yet
                                        > > > overlapping meaning). DE Holz and NL hout are cognate. EN wood seems
                                        > > > to have no cognates in the other germlangs. So nothing is
                                        represented
                                        > > > in the majority. Timmer/Zimmer/Timber etc are represented in most of
                                        > > > the germlangs yet with differing meanings/contexts but the commonest
                                        > > > under-lying thread of meaning seems to be "wood".
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I believe timmer means a speciall type of wood in Swedish.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > I'm really in favour of "oder". Coincidentally just like the German
                                        > > > word. But often I find FS words which are exactly like the Dutch
                                        word,
                                        > > > or the norwegian word, of English word for example.
                                        > >
                                        > > I found "Dis is to dyr" in the wordlist before. I had a good laugh at
                                        > > that, since it looks like a Swedish person joking with English, as it
                                        > > looks like "This is too dyr", where "dyr" is the only Swedish word and
                                        > > the rest are English. xD
                                        >
                                        > If it's my dialect of FS (which it may be since those are all valid
                                        > words in my dialect), then it might look English but would be
                                        > pronounced somewhat differently:
                                        > [di:s Is to: dy:r].
                                        >
                                        > Incidentally, "is" is also used in Dutch in almost the exact same way
                                        > as in English. And "dyr" is also used in Danish (but means both "dear"
                                        > and "animal", unlike in SV where they are two distinct words).

                                        I know very well about that, since that is an interesting phenomena
                                        I've thought about. Between Germanic languages, consonant + y tend to
                                        turn into consonant + ju.

                                        Some examples are between Swedish and Norweigan (Swedish is the ones
                                        with ju instead of y): mjuk - myk, djur - dyr, sjuk - syk, ljud - lyd,
                                        ljus - lys, tjuv - tyv.

                                        These also appear between English and Scandy; the English words "new"
                                        and "view" are pronounced in a way which would make them written "nju"
                                        and "vju" with Scandy rules, while the Scandy equivalents are "ny" and
                                        "vy".
                                      • stefichjo
                                        I have added els and eller to my Wordschatt. :-) But I m not 100% sure about the meaning. Apparently els and eller are both derivations from an extinct
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jul 14, 2007
                                          I have added "els" and "eller" to my Wordschatt. :-)

                                          But I'm not 100% sure about the meaning. Apparently "els" and "eller"
                                          are both derivations from an extinct word "ell", which doesn't mean
                                          "ell" like in "ellbow". :-)

                                          So "els" seems to be an adverb (ell + s), whereas "eller" could be a
                                          preposition. (?)

                                          The meaning seems to be "not this one", _not_ "not like this one",
                                          which seems to be rather like "ander".

                                          Just brainstorming. :-)


                                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > When making an FS cross word for "room", which words do I mix
                                          > > > together? Room and Zimmer producing "Zoomer" or "Rimmer"? Or
                                          Raum and
                                          > > > Chamber producing "Rumber"? Or perhaps Room and Chamber and
                                          Zimmer and
                                          > > > Raum and Kammer and Saal all together producing Ruzimberl?
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi David.
                                          > >
                                          > > That's my point, too. And that's why I don't crosswords either.
                                          > >
                                          > > Crosswording could end in forms like you have described. This way of
                                          > > forming words reminds me of a set of words in Esperanto. The stem of
                                          > > the verb meaning "to glide" (DE "schlittern") is "glit". I don't want
                                          > > to have this kind of words in Folksprak, simply because I think this
                                          > > is not neccessary.
                                          >
                                          > Hi Stefan.
                                          >
                                          > There is one place where cross-words may have their place, and that is
                                          > with onomatopoeic words. There are words that sound like what they
                                          > describe (such as EN "pop" or "woof"). Often with these words you find
                                          > a bunch of words in the germlangs with an obscure etymological
                                          > relationship that mostly resemble each other because they resemble the
                                          > same sound. In such cases, probably cross-wording would be OK.

                                          I don't know "woof" very well, I don't know a German cognate. EN "pop"
                                          is German "puff" ("puffen"). My naive approach is to have FS "poppe"
                                          for "to pop". Btw, German "poppen" means to have sex and is clearly
                                          related to "pop", "bang" and so on.


                                          > > > So when I "invent" words for FS, I look for groups of cognate words
                                          > > > that are shared across of a majority of the source languages. An
                                          > > > example would be EN room, NL ruim, DE Raum, SV rum. These are all
                                          > > > evolutions from Proto-Germanic *r�man. I then look for the meanings
                                          > > > that are shared across the group of shared words. If there is little
                                          > > > or no shared meaning, then a word based on that set of cognates
                                          > > > probably will not be suitable for FS.
                                          > >
                                          > > I think these words ("rum" and "timmer") should be Folksprak words. We
                                          > > need to define their meaning if neccessary. But we shouldn't drop
                                          > > those words.
                                          >
                                          > "Rum" should definitely be in FS, but it might not mean exactly the
                                          > same as in English Room or German Raum (but probably similar to both).
                                          > FS timmer should probably mean something like "wood", but not like DE
                                          > Zimmer. (except in the sense of in Zimmermann)
                                          > "Timmer" would probably the best candidate of a FS word for "wood"
                                          > since the other alternatives are not as common among the germlangs.
                                          > Scand tre/tr�/trae is cognate to EN tree with a different (yet
                                          > overlapping meaning). DE Holz and NL hout are cognate. EN wood seems
                                          > to have no cognates in the other germlangs. So nothing is represented
                                          > in the majority. Timmer/Zimmer/Timber etc are represented in most of
                                          > the germlangs yet with differing meanings/contexts but the commonest
                                          > under-lying thread of meaning seems to be "wood".

                                          I'm in favour of taking the most original meaning of a FS word still
                                          present among the Germanlangs. So if "klen" originally means "little"
                                          and later "clean", then the meaning should be "little", like in German.

                                          So "timmer" should be, like in English, "wood" rather than "chamber".

                                          "rum" should be "vacant space" and "(chamber) room", I guess.


                                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "atamskuuk" <adam_skoog5@...> wrote:
                                          > I found "Dis is to dyr" in the wordlist before. I had a good laugh at
                                          > that, since it looks like a Swedish person joking with English, as it
                                          > looks like "This is too dyr", where "dyr" is the only Swedish word and
                                          > the rest are English. xD


                                          Yeah, I like this happening, too. :-)


                                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
                                          > If it's my dialect of FS (which it may be since those are all valid
                                          > words in my dialect), then it might look English but would be
                                          > pronounced somewhat differently:
                                          > [di:s Is to: dy:r].

                                          It could be my dialect, too, even though I prefer "er":

                                          Dis er to dyr.
                                          [DIs Is to: dy:r].

                                          As you can see, "dis" is short, like so many pronouns ("ik", "dat",
                                          "wan"). Have you considered this option, David?

                                          > Incidentally, "is" is also used in Dutch in almost the exact same way
                                          > as in English. And "dyr" is also used in Danish (but means both "dear"
                                          > and "animal", unlike in SV where they are two distinct words).


                                          The two respective FS words are "dyr" and "dir" ("dear" and "deer"),
                                          aren't they, David?

                                          Bye,
                                          Stephan
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