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Re: [folkspraak] Re: Some Unresolved C-K-Q-X issues

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  • David Parke
    ... I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial s in other languages has become z . Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that,
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 30, 2006
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      chamavian wrote:

      >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right now?
      >>
      >>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s". Even
      >>
      >>
      >in
      >
      >
      >>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
      >>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c", is
      >>always [s].
      >>
      >>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s" becomes
      >>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
      >>
      >>
      >
      >No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
      >sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
      >
      >So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
      >vowel, but the same initial ssound.
      >
      >Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z- also
      >[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
      >Like in Scandinavian and English.
      >
      >Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but unlike
      >Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
      >mussik !
      >
      >
      I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in other
      languages has become "z".

      Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what are your
      preferences for those 10 issues?




      >
      >
      >>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will be a
      >>different phoneme from "s".
      >>
      >>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to be
      >>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE. Initial "s",
      >>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an intervocalic
      >>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
      >>
      >>
      >>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
      >><xipirho@> wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use all
      >>>
      >>>
      >the
      >
      >
      >>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's shorter.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
      >>>>
      >>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >kaos?
      >
      >
      >>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >mustach or
      >
      >
      >>>>mustasch?
      >>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >origin: quelle
      >
      >
      >>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
      >>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
      >>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens? plac
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >or
      >
      >
      >>plas?
      >>
      >>
      >>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >kadett,
      >
      >
      >>>>kultur or cultur?
      >>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >sentral,
      >
      >
      >>>>cylinder or synlinder?
      >>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words. exkus
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >or
      >
      >
      >>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
      >>>>
      >>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
      >>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
      >>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >apothek or
      >
      >
      >>>>apotek?
      >>>>
      >>>>Here are my preferences:
      >>>>1. teknik, kaos
      >>>>2. chokolade, mustach
      >>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as a
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >french
      >
      >
      >>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >french
      >
      >
      >>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will have "ch"
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >at the
      >
      >
      >>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >consistant
      >
      >
      >>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
      >>>>
      >>>>3. qualitet, quelle
      >>>>4. sock, ackurat
      >>>>5. konferenc, plac
      >>>>6. kadett, kultur
      >>>>7. central, cylinder
      >>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
      >>>>9. fotograf, telefon
      >>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
      >>>>
      >>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >mostly
      >
      >
      >>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >where I
      >
      >
      >>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >etymological
      >
      >
      >>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >orthographic
      >
      >
      >>>>conventions quite closely in fact
      >>>>
      >>>>What about the rest of you?
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >No virus found in this incoming message.
      >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date: 30/11/2006
      >
      >
    • chamavian
      ... now? ... Even ... becomes ... unlike ... other ... your ... I d hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point of view the details of the
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 1, 2006
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        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
        >
        > chamavian wrote:
        >
        > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right
        now?
        > >>
        > >>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s".
        Even
        > >>
        > >>
        > >in
        > >
        > >
        > >>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
        > >>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c", is
        > >>always [s].
        > >>
        > >>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s"
        becomes
        > >>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
        > >sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
        > >
        > >So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
        > >vowel, but the same initial ssound.
        > >
        > >Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z- also
        > >[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
        > >Like in Scandinavian and English.
        > >
        > >Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but
        unlike
        > >Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
        > >mussik !
        > >
        > >
        > I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in
        other
        > languages has become "z".
        >
        > Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what are
        your
        > preferences for those 10 issues?

        I'd hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point of
        view the details of the differences between German and Dutch pronun-
        ciation may seem of secondary importance, but Dutch initial s- is
        really not the same as German s-.

        Saying this, you could also state that wether English pronounces c-
        [s] or [ts] in e.g. centre or city is hair-splitting.

        It looks like I irritated you, maybe this is going on for longer
        already, please tell me if you hate it that I forced the group into
        a change of course in Folksprak, instead of going on the way you
        did


        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will
        be a
        > >>different phoneme from "s".
        > >>
        > >>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to be
        > >>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE.
        Initial "s",
        > >>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an intervocalic
        > >>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
        > >><xipirho@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use all
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >the
        > >
        > >
        > >>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's shorter.
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@>
        wrote:
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
        > >>>>
        > >>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >kaos?
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >mustach or
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>mustasch?
        > >>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >origin: quelle
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
        > >>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
        > >>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens? plac
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >or
        > >
        > >
        > >>plas?
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >kadett,
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>kultur or cultur?
        > >>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >sentral,
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>cylinder or synlinder?
        > >>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words. exkus
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >or
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
        > >>>>
        > >>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
        > >>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
        > >>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >apothek or
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>apotek?
        > >>>>
        > >>>>Here are my preferences:
        > >>>>1. teknik, kaos
        > >>>>2. chokolade, mustach
        > >>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as a
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >french
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >french
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will have "ch"
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >at the
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >consistant
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
        > >>>>
        > >>>>3. qualitet, quelle
        > >>>>4. sock, ackurat
        > >>>>5. konferenc, plac
        > >>>>6. kadett, kultur
        > >>>>7. central, cylinder
        > >>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
        > >>>>9. fotograf, telefon
        > >>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
        > >>>>
        > >>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >mostly
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >where I
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >etymological
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >orthographic
        > >
        > >
        > >>>>conventions quite closely in fact
        > >>>>
        > >>>>What about the rest of you?
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >>>>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >------------------------------------------------------------------
        ------
        > >
        > >No virus found in this incoming message.
        > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date:
        30/11/2006
        > >
        > >
        >
      • David Parke
        ... Believe me this has not irritated me and I stand corrected. But I am interested in your opinions about the question that I have raised on C-K-Q-X. Do you
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 1, 2006
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          chamavian wrote:

          >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>chamavian wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >now?
          >
          >
          >>>>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s".
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >Even
          >
          >
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>in
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
          >>>>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c", is
          >>>>always [s].
          >>>>
          >>>>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s"
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >becomes
          >
          >
          >>>>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
          >>>sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
          >>>
          >>>So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
          >>>vowel, but the same initial ssound.
          >>>
          >>>Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z- also
          >>>[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
          >>>Like in Scandinavian and English.
          >>>
          >>>Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but
          >>>
          >>>
          >unlike
          >
          >
          >>>Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
          >>>mussik !
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in
          >>
          >>
          >other
          >
          >
          >>languages has become "z".
          >>
          >>Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what are
          >>
          >>
          >your
          >
          >
          >>preferences for those 10 issues?
          >>
          >>
          >
          >I'd hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point of
          >view the details of the differences between German and Dutch pronun-
          >ciation may seem of secondary importance, but Dutch initial s- is
          >really not the same as German s-.
          >
          >Saying this, you could also state that wether English pronounces c-
          >[s] or [ts] in e.g. centre or city is hair-splitting.
          >
          >It looks like I irritated you, maybe this is going on for longer
          >already, please tell me if you hate it that I forced the group into
          >a change of course in Folksprak, instead of going on the way you
          >did
          >
          >
          Believe me this has not irritated me and I stand corrected. But I am
          interested in your opinions about the question that I have raised on
          C-K-Q-X. Do you want "chaos" or "kaos" or maybe "anarki"?



          >
          >
          >
          >
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >be a
          >
          >
          >>>>different phoneme from "s".
          >>>>
          >>>>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to be
          >>>>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE.
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >Initial "s",
          >
          >
          >>>>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an intervocalic
          >>>>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
          >>>><xipirho@> wrote:
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use all
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>the
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's shorter.
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >wrote:
          >
          >
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>kaos?
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>mustach or
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>mustasch?
          >>>>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>origin: quelle
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
          >>>>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
          >>>>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens? plac
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>or
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>plas?
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>kadett,
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>kultur or cultur?
          >>>>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>sentral,
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>cylinder or synlinder?
          >>>>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words. exkus
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>or
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
          >>>>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
          >>>>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>apothek or
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>apotek?
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>Here are my preferences:
          >>>>>>1. teknik, kaos
          >>>>>>2. chokolade, mustach
          >>>>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as a
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>french
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>french
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will have "ch"
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>at the
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>consistant
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>3. qualitet, quelle
          >>>>>>4. sock, ackurat
          >>>>>>5. konferenc, plac
          >>>>>>6. kadett, kultur
          >>>>>>7. central, cylinder
          >>>>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
          >>>>>>9. fotograf, telefon
          >>>>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>mostly
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>where I
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>etymological
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>orthographic
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>>>conventions quite closely in fact
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>What about the rest of you?
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>------------------------------------------------------------------
          >>>
          >>>
          >------
          >
          >
          >>>No virus found in this incoming message.
          >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          >>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date:
          >>>
          >>>
          >30/11/2006
          >
          >
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >No virus found in this incoming message.
          >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date: 1/12/2006
          >
          >
        • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
          Ingmar, he actually said that Initial and intervocalic s becomes [z], spelt z . But ce/ci/cy is always [s]. . It wasn t a clear statement admittedly, but
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Ingmar, he actually said that "Initial and intervocalic "s" becomes
            [z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].". It wasn't a clear
            statement admittedly, but he was clearly meaning "proto-west-
            germanic s" as it were becomes <z> said /z/, which it does.

            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
            > >
            > > chamavian wrote:
            > >
            > > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@>
            wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right
            > now?
            > > >>
            > > >>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s".
            > Even
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >in
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
            > > >>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c",
            is
            > > >>always [s].
            > > >>
            > > >>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s"
            > becomes
            > > >>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >
            > > >No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
            > > >sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
            > > >
            > > >So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
            > > >vowel, but the same initial ssound.
            > > >
            > > >Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z-
            also
            > > >[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
            > > >Like in Scandinavian and English.
            > > >
            > > >Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but
            > unlike
            > > >Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
            > > >mussik !
            > > >
            > > >
            > > I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in
            > other
            > > languages has become "z".
            > >
            > > Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what
            are
            > your
            > > preferences for those 10 issues?
            >
            > I'd hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point
            of
            > view the details of the differences between German and Dutch
            pronun-
            > ciation may seem of secondary importance, but Dutch initial s- is
            > really not the same as German s-.
            >
            > Saying this, you could also state that wether English pronounces c-

            > [s] or [ts] in e.g. centre or city is hair-splitting.
            >
            > It looks like I irritated you, maybe this is going on for longer
            > already, please tell me if you hate it that I forced the group
            into
            > a change of course in Folksprak, instead of going on the way you
            > did
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will
            > be a
            > > >>different phoneme from "s".
            > > >>
            > > >>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to
            be
            > > >>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE.
            > Initial "s",
            > > >>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an
            intervocalic
            > > >>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
            > > >><xipirho@> wrote:
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use
            all
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >the
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's
            shorter.
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@>
            > wrote:
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >kaos?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >mustach or
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>mustasch?
            > > >>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >origin: quelle
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
            > > >>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
            > > >>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens?
            plac
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >or
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>plas?
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >kadett,
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>kultur or cultur?
            > > >>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >sentral,
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>cylinder or synlinder?
            > > >>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words.
            exkus
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >or
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
            > > >>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
            > > >>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >apothek or
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>apotek?
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>Here are my preferences:
            > > >>>>1. teknik, kaos
            > > >>>>2. chokolade, mustach
            > > >>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as
            a
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >french
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >french
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will
            have "ch"
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >at the
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >consistant
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>3. qualitet, quelle
            > > >>>>4. sock, ackurat
            > > >>>>5. konferenc, plac
            > > >>>>6. kadett, kultur
            > > >>>>7. central, cylinder
            > > >>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
            > > >>>>9. fotograf, telefon
            > > >>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >mostly
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >where I
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >etymological
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >orthographic
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>>conventions quite closely in fact
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>What about the rest of you?
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >----------------------------------------------------------------
            --
            > ------
            > > >
            > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date:
            > 30/11/2006
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • chamavian
            ... is ... also ... are ... of ... pronun- ... c- ... into ... am ... on ... Mmm, maybe splitting hairs is a saying with a positive connotation in English,
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
              >
              > chamavian wrote:
              >
              > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >>chamavian wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@>
              wrote:
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >now?
              > >
              > >
              > >>>>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s".
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >Even
              > >
              > >
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>in
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
              > >>>>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c",
              is
              > >>>>always [s].
              > >>>>
              > >>>>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s"
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >becomes
              > >
              > >
              > >>>>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
              > >>>sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
              > >>>
              > >>>So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
              > >>>vowel, but the same initial ssound.
              > >>>
              > >>>Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z-
              also
              > >>>[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
              > >>>Like in Scandinavian and English.
              > >>>
              > >>>Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >unlike
              > >
              > >
              > >>>Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
              > >>>mussik !
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in
              > >>
              > >>
              > >other
              > >
              > >
              > >>languages has become "z".
              > >>
              > >>Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what
              are
              > >>
              > >>
              > >your
              > >
              > >
              > >>preferences for those 10 issues?
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >I'd hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point
              of
              > >view the details of the differences between German and Dutch
              pronun-
              > >ciation may seem of secondary importance, but Dutch initial s- is
              > >really not the same as German s-.
              > >
              > >Saying this, you could also state that wether English pronounces
              c-
              > >[s] or [ts] in e.g. centre or city is hair-splitting.
              > >
              > >It looks like I irritated you, maybe this is going on for longer
              > >already, please tell me if you hate it that I forced the group
              into
              > >a change of course in Folksprak, instead of going on the way you
              > >did
              > >
              > >
              > Believe me this has not irritated me and I stand corrected. But I
              am
              > interested in your opinions about the question that I have raised
              on
              > C-K-Q-X. Do you want "chaos" or "kaos" or maybe "anarki"?


              Mmm, maybe "splitting hairs" is a saying with a positive connotation
              in English, but to me it looked like you were irritated... Sorry for
              that, then.

              I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical for
              the Folksprak-community come to an end.

              I for me prefer in FS:

              Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]

              chaos ["xa:Os]
              technik [tEx"nIk]
              monarchi [monar"xi]
              chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
              Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?


              Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]

              centrum ["sEntrUm]
              citron [si"tro:n]
              cynisch ["sy:nIS]


              Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]

              karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
              kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
              kaffi ["kAfi]
              laktose [lAk"to:z@]


              Also in words with both soft and hard c

              cyklon [sy"klo:n]
              koncert [kOn"sErt]
              akcent [ak"sEnt]
              encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
              cirkus ["sIrkUs]


              But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)

              café/kafee [ka"fe:]
              concours [kON"ku:r]
              computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
              Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
              colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
              cokes [ko:ks]

              machine [ma"Si:n@]
              chic [Sik]
              China ["Si:na]
              chocolade [Soko"la:d@]

              chip [tSIp]
              charter ["tSArt@r]
              coach [ko:tS]


              Qu => kw

              kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
              kwart [kPArt]
              kwestion [kPesti"o:n]

              But in obvious loans, qu

              quiz [kwIz]
              quiche [kiS]
              quickstep ["kwIkstEp]


              So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages have
              [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider to allow
              Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd want
              to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the norm.

              Chamavian

              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >be a
              > >
              > >
              > >>>>different phoneme from "s".
              > >>>>
              > >>>>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to
              be
              > >>>>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE.
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >Initial "s",
              > >
              > >
              > >>>>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an
              intervocalic
              > >>>>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
              > >>>><xipirho@> wrote:
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use
              all
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>the
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's
              shorter.
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>
              > >>>>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>kaos?
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>mustach or
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>mustasch?
              > >>>>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>origin: quelle
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
              > >>>>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
              > >>>>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens?
              plac
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>or
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>plas?
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>kadett,
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>kultur or cultur?
              > >>>>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>sentral,
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>cylinder or synlinder?
              > >>>>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words.
              exkus
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>or
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
              > >>>>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
              > >>>>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>apothek or
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>apotek?
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>Here are my preferences:
              > >>>>>>1. teknik, kaos
              > >>>>>>2. chokolade, mustach
              > >>>>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as
              a
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>french
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>french
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will
              have "ch"
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>at the
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>consistant
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>3. qualitet, quelle
              > >>>>>>4. sock, ackurat
              > >>>>>>5. konferenc, plac
              > >>>>>>6. kadett, kultur
              > >>>>>>7. central, cylinder
              > >>>>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
              > >>>>>>9. fotograf, telefon
              > >>>>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>mostly
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>where I
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>etymological
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>orthographic
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>>>>conventions quite closely in fact
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>What about the rest of you?
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>>>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
              --
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >------
              > >
              > >
              > >>>No virus found in this incoming message.
              > >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > >>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date:
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >30/11/2006
              > >
              > >
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >------------------------------------------------------------------
              ------
              > >
              > >No virus found in this incoming message.
              > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date:
              1/12/2006
              > >
              > >
              >
            • chamavian
              Oh, I forgot about FS: akkurat [Aku ra:t] akkolade [Ako la:d@] but: account [a kAUnt] konferens [kOmf@ rEns] plats [plAts] prins [prIns] fuks [fUks] seks
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Oh, I forgot about

                FS:

                akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                akkolade [Ako"la:d@]

                but:
                account [a"kAUnt]

                konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                plats [plAts]
                prins [prIns]

                fuks [fUks]
                seks [sEks] = 6
                ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                klimaks ["kli:mAks]

                but in obvious loans:

                sex [sEks] = fucking
                box [bOks] = sport
                ex [Eks]
                fax [fAks]


                for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:

                ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                or
                ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                "I fucked that sweet chick"



                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                > I for me prefer in FS:
                >
                > Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                >
                > chaos ["xa:Os]
                > technik [tEx"nIk]
                > monarchi [monar"xi]
                > chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                > Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                >
                >
                > Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                >
                > centrum ["sEntrUm]
                > citron [si"tro:n]
                > cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                >
                >
                > Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                >
                > karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                > kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                > kaffi ["kAfi]
                > laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                >
                >
                > Also in words with both soft and hard c
                >
                > cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                > koncert [kOn"sErt]
                > akcent [ak"sEnt]
                > encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                > cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                >
                >
                > But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                >
                > café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                > concours [kON"ku:r]
                > computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                > Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                > colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                > cokes [ko:ks]
                >
                > machine [ma"Si:n@]
                > chic [Sik]
                > China ["Si:na]
                > chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                >
                > chip [tSIp]
                > charter ["tSArt@r]
                > coach [ko:tS]
                >
                >
                > Qu => kw
                >
                > kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                > kwart [kPArt]
                > kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                >
                > But in obvious loans, qu
                >
                > quiz [kwIz]
                > quiche [kiS]
                > quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                >
                >
                > So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages
                have
                > [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider to allow
                > Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd
                want
                > to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the
                norm.
                >
                > Chamavian
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>sentral,
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>cylinder or synlinder?
                > > >>>>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words.
                > exkus
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>or
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
                > > >>>>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
                > > >>>>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>apothek or
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>apotek?
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>Here are my preferences:
                > > >>>>>>1. teknik, kaos
                > > >>>>>>2. chokolade, mustach
                > > >>>>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it
                as
                > a
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>french
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like
                a
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>french
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will
                > have "ch"
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>at the
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>consistant
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>3. qualitet, quelle
                > > >>>>>>4. sock, ackurat
                > > >>>>>>5. konferenc, plac
                > > >>>>>>6. kadett, kultur
                > > >>>>>>7. central, cylinder
                > > >>>>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
                > > >>>>>>9. fotograf, telefon
                > > >>>>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences,
                it's
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>mostly
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of
                8,
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>where I
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>etymological
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>orthographic
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>>>>conventions quite closely in fact
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>What about the rest of you?
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>>>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                > --
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >------
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >>>No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > >>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release
                Date:
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >30/11/2006
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >----------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                > ------
                > > >
                > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date:
                > 1/12/2006
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • eugeniusz.slowik
                Dagse Chambo, I support your orthography, but I am against an Extrwurst for the Germans, let them pronounce the c in centrum as they like. Eugene ...
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dagse Chambo,
                  I support your orthography, but I am against an "Extrwurst" for the
                  Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they like.
                  Eugene
                  chamavian schrieb:
                  >
                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > chamavian wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>chamavian wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David Parke" <parked@>
                  > wrote:
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >now?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s".
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >Even
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>in
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
                  > > >>>>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c",
                  > is
                  > > >>>>always [s].
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s"
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >becomes
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
                  > > >>>sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
                  > > >>>vowel, but the same initial ssound.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z-
                  > also
                  > > >>>[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
                  > > >>>Like in Scandinavian and English.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >unlike
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
                  > > >>>mussik !
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >other
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>languages has become "z".
                  > > >>
                  > > >>Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what
                  > are
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >your
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>preferences for those 10 issues?
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >I'd hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point
                  > of
                  > > >view the details of the differences between German and Dutch
                  > pronun-
                  > > >ciation may seem of secondary importance, but Dutch initial s- is
                  > > >really not the same as German s-.
                  > > >
                  > > >Saying this, you could also state that wether English pronounces
                  > c-
                  > > >[s] or [ts] in e.g. centre or city is hair-splitting.
                  > > >
                  > > >It looks like I irritated you, maybe this is going on for longer
                  > > >already, please tell me if you hate it that I forced the group
                  > into
                  > > >a change of course in Folksprak, instead of going on the way you
                  > > >did
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > Believe me this has not irritated me and I stand corrected. But I
                  > am
                  > > interested in your opinions about the question that I have raised
                  > on
                  > > C-K-Q-X. Do you want "chaos" or "kaos" or maybe "anarki"?
                  >
                  > Mmm, maybe "splitting hairs" is a saying with a positive connotation
                  > in English, but to me it looked like you were irritated... Sorry for
                  > that, then.
                  >
                  > I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical for
                  > the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                  >
                  > I for me prefer in FS:
                  >
                  > Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                  >
                  > chaos ["xa:Os]
                  > technik [tEx"nIk]
                  > monarchi [monar"xi]
                  > chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                  > Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                  >
                  > Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                  >
                  > centrum ["sEntrUm]
                  > citron [si"tro:n]
                  > cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                  >
                  > Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                  >
                  > karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                  > kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                  > kaffi ["kAfi]
                  > laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                  >
                  > Also in words with both soft and hard c
                  >
                  > cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                  > koncert [kOn"sErt]
                  > akcent [ak"sEnt]
                  > encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                  > cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                  >
                  > But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                  >
                  > café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                  > concours [kON"ku:r]
                  > computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                  > Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                  > colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                  > cokes [ko:ks]
                  >
                  > machine [ma"Si:n@]
                  > chic [Sik]
                  > China ["Si:na]
                  > chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                  >
                  > chip [tSIp]
                  > charter ["tSArt@r]
                  > coach [ko:tS]
                  >
                  > Qu => kw
                  >
                  > kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                  > kwart [kPArt]
                  > kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                  >
                  > But in obvious loans, qu
                  >
                  > quiz [kwIz]
                  > quiche [kiS]
                  > quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                  >
                  > So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages have
                  > [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider to allow
                  > Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd want
                  > to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the norm.
                  >
                  > Chamavian
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >be a
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>>different phoneme from "s".
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to
                  > be
                  > > >>>>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE.
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >Initial "s",
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an
                  > intervocalic
                  > > >>>>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                  > > >>>><xipirho@> wrote:
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use
                  > all
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>the
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's
                  > shorter.
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David Parke" <parked@>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>kaos?
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>mustach or
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>mustasch?
                  > > >>>>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>origin: quelle
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
                  > > >>>>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
                  > > >>>>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens?
                  > plac
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>or
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>plas?
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>
                  > > >>>>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>kadett,
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>kultur or cultur?
                  > > >>>>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>sentral,
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>cylinder or synlinder?
                  > > >>>>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words.
                  > exkus
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>or
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
                  > > >>>>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
                  > > >>>>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>apothek or
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>apotek?
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>Here are my preferences:
                  > > >>>>>>1. teknik, kaos
                  > > >>>>>>2. chokolade, mustach
                  > > >>>>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as
                  > a
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>french
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>french
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will
                  > have "ch"
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>at the
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>consistant
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>3. qualitet, quelle
                  > > >>>>>>4. sock, ackurat
                  > > >>>>>>5. konferenc, plac
                  > > >>>>>>6. kadett, kultur
                  > > >>>>>>7. central, cylinder
                  > > >>>>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
                  > > >>>>>>9. fotograf, telefon
                  > > >>>>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>mostly
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>where I
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>etymological
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>orthographic
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>>>>conventions quite closely in fact
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>What about the rest of you?
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>>>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>----------------------------------------------------------
                  > --
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > > >>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date:
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >30/11/2006
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >----------------------------------------------------------
                  > ------
                  > > >
                  > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date:
                  > 1/12/2006
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eugeniusz.slowik
                  Korrektur: Extrawurst not Extrwurst Eugene ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Korrektur: Extrawurst not Extrwurst
                    Eugene
                    eugeniusz.slowik schrieb:
                    > Dagse Chambo,
                    > I support your orthography, but I am against an "Extrwurst" for the
                    > Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they like.
                    > Eugene
                    > chamavian schrieb:
                    >>
                    >> --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@...> wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > chamavian wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > >--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, David Parke <parked@> wrote:
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>chamavian wrote:
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David Parke" <parked@>
                    >> wrote:
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>You keep strange hours Roland. Or are you not in the UK right
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >now?
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>>I think that ce/ci/cy should be a separate phoneme from "s".
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >Even
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>in
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>English it is pronounced different under some circumstances.
                    >> > >>>>Inter-vocalic "s" in English can become [z], intervocalic "c",
                    >> is
                    >> > >>>>always [s].
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>Same goes for Dutch, I think; Initial and intervocalic "s"
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >becomes
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>>[z], spelt "z". But ce/ci/cy is always [s].
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>No, we're no Germans! In Dutch, initial s- is [S], not [z-].
                    >> > >>>sijs [sEIs] vs. zeis [zEIs], sok [sOk] vs. zoek [zuk].
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>So in Dutch, cent [sEnt] and sint [sent] only have a different
                    >> > >>>vowel, but the same initial ssound.
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>Btw, in Amsterdam and Friesland, people pronounce initial z-
                    >> also
                    >> > >>>[s], they say [suk] zoek, [seI] zee etc.
                    >> > >>>Like in Scandinavian and English.
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>Intervocally, Dutch -s- is usually [z], like in English, but
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >unlike
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>Scandy, which keeps the [s]. Remember Abba's: thank you for the
                    >> > >>>mussik !
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>I was thinking of all those Dutch words where the initial "s" in
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >other
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>languages has become "z".
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>Anyways, rather than splitting hairs with me about that, what
                    >> are
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >your
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>preferences for those 10 issues?
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >
                    >> > >I'd hardly call that splitting hairs, mate. From an English point
                    >> of
                    >> > >view the details of the differences between German and Dutch
                    >> pronun-
                    >> > >ciation may seem of secondary importance, but Dutch initial s- is
                    >> > >really not the same as German s-.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >Saying this, you could also state that wether English pronounces
                    >> c-
                    >> > >[s] or [ts] in e.g. centre or city is hair-splitting.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >It looks like I irritated you, maybe this is going on for longer
                    >> > >already, please tell me if you hate it that I forced the group
                    >> into
                    >> > >a change of course in Folksprak, instead of going on the way you
                    >> > >did
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > Believe me this has not irritated me and I stand corrected. But I
                    >> am
                    >> > interested in your opinions about the question that I have raised
                    >> on
                    >> > C-K-Q-X. Do you want "chaos" or "kaos" or maybe "anarki"?
                    >>
                    >> Mmm, maybe "splitting hairs" is a saying with a positive connotation
                    >> in English, but to me it looked like you were irritated... Sorry for
                    >> that, then.
                    >>
                    >> I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical for
                    >> the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                    >>
                    >> I for me prefer in FS:
                    >>
                    >> Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                    >>
                    >> chaos ["xa:Os]
                    >> technik [tEx"nIk]
                    >> monarchi [monar"xi]
                    >> chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                    >> Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                    >>
                    >> Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                    >>
                    >> centrum ["sEntrUm]
                    >> citron [si"tro:n]
                    >> cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                    >>
                    >> Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                    >>
                    >> karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                    >> kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                    >> kaffi ["kAfi]
                    >> laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                    >>
                    >> Also in words with both soft and hard c
                    >>
                    >> cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                    >> koncert [kOn"sErt]
                    >> akcent [ak"sEnt]
                    >> encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                    >> cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                    >>
                    >> But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                    >>
                    >> café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                    >> concours [kON"ku:r]
                    >> computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                    >> Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                    >> colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                    >> cokes [ko:ks]
                    >>
                    >> machine [ma"Si:n@]
                    >> chic [Sik]
                    >> China ["Si:na]
                    >> chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                    >>
                    >> chip [tSIp]
                    >> charter ["tSArt@r]
                    >> coach [ko:tS]
                    >>
                    >> Qu => kw
                    >>
                    >> kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                    >> kwart [kPArt]
                    >> kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                    >>
                    >> But in obvious loans, qu
                    >>
                    >> quiz [kwIz]
                    >> quiche [kiS]
                    >> quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                    >>
                    >> So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages have
                    >> [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider to allow
                    >> Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd want
                    >> to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the norm.
                    >>
                    >> Chamavian
                    >>
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>Even if we don't prono ce/ci/cy as [ts], I still think it will
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >be a
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>>different phoneme from "s".
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>I think there are good grounds for inter-vocalic "s" in FS to
                    >> be
                    >> > >>>>prono'd as [z], given that's what happens in EN/NL/DE.
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >Initial "s",
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>>probably [s] though. But "c" should not change in an
                    >> intervocalic
                    >> > >>>>position, even if it is [s], not [ts]
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                    >> > >>>><xipirho@> wrote:
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>>You can probably guess what I'd do, but basically it's use
                    >> all
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>the
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>phonetic-y ones apart from <ks> - I'd use <x> as it's
                    >> shorter.
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>--- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:folkspraak%40yahoogroups.com>, "David Parke" <parked@>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >wrote:
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>Some Unresolved C-K-Q Issues
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>1. ch in words of greek origin. technik or teknik. chaos or
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>kaos?
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>2. ch in words of french origin chokolade or schokolade.
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>mustach or
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>mustasch?
                    >> > >>>>>>3. qu in words of mostly romance but also some germanic
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>origin: quelle
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>or kwelle, qualitet or kwalitet?
                    >> > >>>>>>4. doubled kk or ck: sock or sokk? ackurat or akkurat?
                    >> > >>>>>>5. Final c in romance borrowings: konferenc or konferens?
                    >> plac
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>or
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>plas?
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>6. C in romance borrowings before a back vowel: cadett or
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>kadett,
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>kultur or cultur?
                    >> > >>>>>>7. C in romance borrowings before a front vowel: central or
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>sentral,
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>cylinder or synlinder?
                    >> > >>>>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words.
                    >> exkus
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>or
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
                    >> > >>>>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
                    >> > >>>>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>apothek or
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>apotek?
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>Here are my preferences:
                    >> > >>>>>>1. teknik, kaos
                    >> > >>>>>>2. chokolade, mustach
                    >> > >>>>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it as
                    >> a
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>french
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like a
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>french
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will
                    >> have "ch"
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>at the
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>consistant
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>3. qualitet, quelle
                    >> > >>>>>>4. sock, ackurat
                    >> > >>>>>>5. konferenc, plac
                    >> > >>>>>>6. kadett, kultur
                    >> > >>>>>>7. central, cylinder
                    >> > >>>>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
                    >> > >>>>>>9. fotograf, telefon
                    >> > >>>>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences, it's
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>mostly
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of 8,
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>where I
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>etymological
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>orthographic
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>>>>conventions quite closely in fact
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>What about the rest of you?
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>>>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>----------------------------------------------------------
                    >> --
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >------
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>No virus found in this incoming message.
                    >> > >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    >> > >>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date:
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >30/11/2006
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >>>
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >----------------------------------------------------------
                    >> ------
                    >> > >
                    >> > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                    >> > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    >> > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date:
                    >> 1/12/2006
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • chamavian
                    What does that mean egzaktly in this kase, an ekstrawurst? Something like a special rule or a privilege for a limited group? One last thing: I think FS should
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      What does that mean egzaktly in this kase, an ekstrawurst?
                      Something like a special rule or a privilege for a limited group?

                      One last thing: I think FS should have f not ph:

                      fotografi [fotogra"fi:]
                      filosofi [filoso"fi:]
                      fysisch ["fy:zIS]
                      feuniks ["f2:nIks]
                      diftong ["dIftON]

                      but I think also th:

                      theater [te"a:t@r]
                      thee [te:]
                      theori [te'o"ri:]

                      maybe teater, tee and teori would be phine, too, altough tis looks a
                      bit poorish too me...

                      Ingmar

                      > eugeniusz.slowik schrieb:
                      > > Dagse Chambo,
                      > > I support your orthography, but I am against an "Extrawurst" for
                      > > Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they like.
                      > > Eugene

                      > chamavian schrieb:
                      >
                      >Oh, I forgot about
                      >
                      >FS:
                      >
                      >akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                      >akkolade [Ako"la:d@]
                      >
                      >but:
                      >account [a"kAUnt]
                      >
                      >konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                      >plats [plAts]
                      >prins [prIns]
                      >
                      >fuks [fUks]
                      >seks [sEks] = 6
                      >ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                      >klimaks ["kli:mAks]
                      >
                      >but in obvious loans:
                      >
                      >sex [sEks] = fucking
                      >box [bOks] = sport
                      >ex [Eks]
                      >fax [fAks]
                      >
                      >
                      >for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:
                      >
                      >ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                      >or
                      >ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                      >"I fucked that sweet chick"
                      >
                      >
                      > >>
                      > >> I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical
                      > >> for the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                      > >>
                      > >> I for me prefer in FS:
                      > >>
                      > >> Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                      > >>
                      > >> chaos ["xa:Os]
                      > >> technik [tEx"nIk]
                      > >> monarchi [monar"xi]
                      > >> chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                      > >> Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                      > >>
                      > >> Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                      > >>
                      > >> centrum ["sEntrUm]
                      > >> citron [si"tro:n]
                      > >> cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                      > >>
                      > >> Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                      > >>
                      > >> karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                      > >> kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                      > >> kaffi ["kAfi]
                      > >> laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                      > >>
                      > >> Also in words with both soft and hard c
                      > >>
                      > >> cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                      > >> koncert [kOn"sErt]
                      > >> akcent [ak"sEnt]
                      > >> encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                      > >> cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                      > >>
                      > >> But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                      > >>
                      > >> café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                      > >> concours [kON"ku:r]
                      > >> computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                      > >> Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                      > >> colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                      > >> cokes [ko:ks]
                      > >>
                      > >> machine [ma"Si:n@]
                      > >> chic [Sik]
                      > >> China ["Si:na]
                      > >> chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                      > >>
                      > >> chip [tSIp]
                      > >> charter ["tSArt@r]
                      > >> coach [ko:tS]
                      > >>
                      > >> Qu => kw
                      > >>
                      > >> kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                      > >> kwart [kPArt]
                      > >> kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                      > >>
                      > >> But in obvious loans, qu
                      > >>
                      > >> quiz [kwIz]
                      > >> quiche [kiS]
                      > >> quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                      > >>
                      > >> So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages
                      > >> have [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider
                      > >> to allow
                      > >> Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd
                      > >> want
                      > >> to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the
                      > >> norm.
                      > >>
                      > >> Chamavian
                    • David Parke
                      I think we need to address this from the point of view of how easy it will be for speakers to know how to spell words. Having ph and th : orthographi or
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I think we need to address this from the point of view of how easy it
                        will be for speakers to know how to spell words.

                        Having "ph" and "th": orthographi or ortografi.
                        Since these "ph" and "th" will be prono'd the same as "f" and "t", an
                        inexperienced student will not know whether he/she should spell with
                        ph or f, th or t. It's the same criticism that I get for crossed d and
                        t that are pronounced the same way as normal d/t.

                        Having "x"
                        If we make [ks] always spelt "x", then this shouldn't be so much of a
                        problem. It's just a rule to learn. Maybe there would be problems with
                        2 seperate syllables, one ending in "k" and the next beginning in "s",
                        "quicksilver" could be interpreted as "quixilver", but I think most
                        speakers ought to be able to break up a compound word into its
                        individual components.

                        Having "qu".
                        Same as for "x". If we make [kP] always spelt "qu", then this is just
                        a rule to learn. Same small problem for words like "Milkweg" and
                        "merkwerdig" *Milqueg and *merquerdig??

                        Greek "ch" as [x]
                        I sort of accept this since it would be logical given that "ch" is [x]
                        in native FS words. But in germanic FS words, [x] is only at the end
                        of a syllable, often these greek words will have it initially
                        This might cause some confusion in an initial position, since this
                        will be where the "ch" from French as [S] will often be encountered.
                        In scandinavian, this has always become "k", but this is most likely
                        because they don't have a [x] sound, but the do have a [S] sound. You
                        still see "ch" in Danish/Swedish words of french origin. (but "sj" in
                        Norwegian which has more phonetic and less etymological spelling)

                        As far as "obvious loans" goes, this is a very tricky, vague area.
                        For example German has Maschine and Scandy maskin/maskine, so they are
                        no longer simply unmodified French loans. Norwegian has sjokolade and
                        German has Schokolade.

                        Since going from "ch" [S] to "sch" is a fairly trivial change, maybe
                        we should be doing this to most of those borrowings, this will leave
                        less confusion when it comes to ch [x].
                        Maybe we need to make a rule about it. Perhaps if french "ch" has been
                        changed to a more phonetic spelling in 2 or more language, then we
                        will follow this lead. (But I guess for Dutch speakers, "ch" for [S]
                        is more phonetic than sch for [S], since "sch" is normally [sx]. )

                        This might leave some borrowings that still have [S] spelt "ch", but
                        they will be words where they can still carry a certain French "je ne
                        sais quois" and the part of the desired effect of using the word is to
                        sound French (or English or whatever.)

                        Having "ck" or "kk".
                        Again if [k:] is always spelt "ck" instead of "kk", then this is just
                        a rule to learn. I must say, I thing "tryckknopp" looks a lot better
                        than "trykkknopp"

                        So having "x" , "qu", "ck" would be extra rules to learn. I think
                        often the problem isn't lots of rules, it's the exception to the
                        rules that make things irregular and difficult
                        Having both "ph" and "f" and "th" and "t" would be irregular.


                        --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > What does that mean egzaktly in this kase, an ekstrawurst?
                        > Something like a special rule or a privilege for a limited group?
                        >
                        > One last thing: I think FS should have f not ph:
                        >
                        > fotografi [fotogra"fi:]
                        > filosofi [filoso"fi:]
                        > fysisch ["fy:zIS]
                        > feuniks ["f2:nIks]
                        > diftong ["dIftON]
                        >
                        > but I think also th:
                        >
                        > theater [te"a:t@r]
                        > thee [te:]
                        > theori [te'o"ri:]
                        >
                        > maybe teater, tee and teori would be phine, too, altough tis looks a
                        > bit poorish too me...
                        >
                        > Ingmar
                        >
                        > > eugeniusz.slowik schrieb:
                        > > > Dagse Chambo,
                        > > > I support your orthography, but I am against an "Extrawurst" for
                        > > > Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they like.
                        > > > Eugene
                        >
                        > > chamavian schrieb:
                        > >
                        > >Oh, I forgot about
                        > >
                        > >FS:
                        > >
                        > >akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                        > >akkolade [Ako"la:d@]
                        > >
                        > >but:
                        > >account [a"kAUnt]
                        > >
                        > >konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                        > >plats [plAts]
                        > >prins [prIns]
                        > >
                        > >fuks [fUks]
                        > >seks [sEks] = 6
                        > >ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                        > >klimaks ["kli:mAks]
                        > >
                        > >but in obvious loans:
                        > >
                        > >sex [sEks] = fucking
                        > >box [bOks] = sport
                        > >ex [Eks]
                        > >fax [fAks]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:
                        > >
                        > >ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                        > >or
                        > >ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                        > >"I fucked that sweet chick"
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >>
                        > > >> I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical
                        > > >> for the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> I for me prefer in FS:
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> chaos ["xa:Os]
                        > > >> technik [tEx"nIk]
                        > > >> monarchi [monar"xi]
                        > > >> chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                        > > >> Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> centrum ["sEntrUm]
                        > > >> citron [si"tro:n]
                        > > >> cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                        > > >> kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                        > > >> kaffi ["kAfi]
                        > > >> laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Also in words with both soft and hard c
                        > > >>
                        > > >> cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                        > > >> koncert [kOn"sErt]
                        > > >> akcent [ak"sEnt]
                        > > >> encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                        > > >> cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                        > > >>
                        > > >> caf�/kafee [ka"fe:]
                        > > >> concours [kON"ku:r]
                        > > >> computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                        > > >> Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                        > > >> colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                        > > >> cokes [ko:ks]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> machine [ma"Si:n@]
                        > > >> chic [Sik]
                        > > >> China ["Si:na]
                        > > >> chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> chip [tSIp]
                        > > >> charter ["tSArt@r]
                        > > >> coach [ko:tS]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Qu => kw
                        > > >>
                        > > >> kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                        > > >> kwart [kPArt]
                        > > >> kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> But in obvious loans, qu
                        > > >>
                        > > >> quiz [kwIz]
                        > > >> quiche [kiS]
                        > > >> quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                        > > >>
                        > > >> So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages
                        > > >> have [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider
                        > > >> to allow
                        > > >> Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd
                        > > >> want
                        > > >> to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the
                        > > >> norm.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Chamavian
                        >
                      • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
                        Why [A] for short a, not [a]?
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Why [A] for short a, not [a]?

                          --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Oh, I forgot about
                          >
                          > FS:
                          >
                          > akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                          > akkolade [Ako"la:d@]
                          >
                          > but:
                          > account [a"kAUnt]
                          >
                          > konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                          > plats [plAts]
                          > prins [prIns]
                          >
                          > fuks [fUks]
                          > seks [sEks] = 6
                          > ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                          > klimaks ["kli:mAks]
                          >
                          > but in obvious loans:
                          >
                          > sex [sEks] = fucking
                          > box [bOks] = sport
                          > ex [Eks]
                          > fax [fAks]
                          >
                          >
                          > for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:
                          >
                          > ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                          > or
                          > ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                          > "I fucked that sweet chick"
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                          > > I for me prefer in FS:
                          > >
                          > > Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                          > >
                          > > chaos ["xa:Os]
                          > > technik [tEx"nIk]
                          > > monarchi [monar"xi]
                          > > chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                          > > Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                          > >
                          > > centrum ["sEntrUm]
                          > > citron [si"tro:n]
                          > > cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                          > >
                          > > karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                          > > kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                          > > kaffi ["kAfi]
                          > > laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Also in words with both soft and hard c
                          > >
                          > > cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                          > > koncert [kOn"sErt]
                          > > akcent [ak"sEnt]
                          > > encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                          > > cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                          > >
                          > > café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                          > > concours [kON"ku:r]
                          > > computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                          > > Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                          > > colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                          > > cokes [ko:ks]
                          > >
                          > > machine [ma"Si:n@]
                          > > chic [Sik]
                          > > China ["Si:na]
                          > > chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                          > >
                          > > chip [tSIp]
                          > > charter ["tSArt@r]
                          > > coach [ko:tS]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Qu => kw
                          > >
                          > > kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                          > > kwart [kPArt]
                          > > kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                          > >
                          > > But in obvious loans, qu
                          > >
                          > > quiz [kwIz]
                          > > quiche [kiS]
                          > > quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages
                          > have
                          > > [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider to allow
                          > > Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd
                          > want
                          > > to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the
                          > norm.
                          > >
                          > > Chamavian
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>sentral,
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>cylinder or synlinder?
                          > > > >>>>>>8. X in romance borrowings, *hs, *ks in germanic words.
                          > > exkus
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>or
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>ekskus? Klimax or klimaks? Flax or flaks?, hex or heks?
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>Related Issues With Graeco-Romance borrowings
                          > > > >>>>>>9. Ph or F: photograph or fotograf? telephon or telefon?
                          > > > >>>>>>10. Th or T: bibliothek or bibliotek? Theater or teater?
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>apothek or
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>apotek?
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>Here are my preferences:
                          > > > >>>>>>1. teknik, kaos
                          > > > >>>>>>2. chokolade, mustach
                          > > > >>>>>>The word for machine, is a difficult one (do we treat it
                          > as
                          > > a
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>french
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>word or a greek word. It's in fact a greek word said like
                          > a
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>french
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>word. Hopefully most the the French "ch" words will
                          > > have "ch"
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>at the
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>start of the syllable. Then we will be able to make it a
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>consistant
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>rule that "ch" at the start of a syllable is [S].
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>3. qualitet, quelle
                          > > > >>>>>>4. sock, ackurat
                          > > > >>>>>>5. konferenc, plac
                          > > > >>>>>>6. kadett, kultur
                          > > > >>>>>>7. central, cylinder
                          > > > >>>>>>8. exkus, klimax, flax, hex
                          > > > >>>>>>9. fotograf, telefon
                          > > > >>>>>>10. bibliotek, teater, apotek
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>I accept there isn't a lot of logic in my preferences,
                          > it's
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>mostly
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>down to a question of aesthetics. (except in the case of
                          > 8,
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>where I
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>accept it looks ugly, but I think it's better from an
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>etymological
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>point of view) I think my preferences follow Swedish
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>orthographic
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>>>>conventions quite closely in fact
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>What about the rest of you?
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>>>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------
                          > --
                          > > --
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >------
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >>>No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > > > >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > > > >>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release
                          > Date:
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >30/11/2006
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >>>
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > --
                          > > ------
                          > > > >
                          > > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > > > >Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date:
                          > > 1/12/2006
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius
                          oh man. SURELY we can have enough logic to either have and or and not a oh that looks a bit poorish [whatever poorish means] to me
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            oh man. SURELY we can have enough logic to either have <th> and <ph>
                            or <t> and <f> not a "oh that looks a bit poorish [whatever poorish
                            means] to me" compromise! :-)

                            --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > What does that mean egzaktly in this kase, an ekstrawurst?
                            > Something like a special rule or a privilege for a limited group?
                            >
                            > One last thing: I think FS should have f not ph:
                            >
                            > fotografi [fotogra"fi:]
                            > filosofi [filoso"fi:]
                            > fysisch ["fy:zIS]
                            > feuniks ["f2:nIks]
                            > diftong ["dIftON]
                            >
                            > but I think also th:
                            >
                            > theater [te"a:t@r]
                            > thee [te:]
                            > theori [te'o"ri:]
                            >
                            > maybe teater, tee and teori would be phine, too, altough tis looks a
                            > bit poorish too me...
                            >
                            > Ingmar
                            >
                            > > eugeniusz.slowik schrieb:
                            > > > Dagse Chambo,
                            > > > I support your orthography, but I am against an "Extrawurst" for
                            > > > Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they like.
                            > > > Eugene
                            >
                            > > chamavian schrieb:
                            > >
                            > >Oh, I forgot about
                            > >
                            > >FS:
                            > >
                            > >akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                            > >akkolade [Ako"la:d@]
                            > >
                            > >but:
                            > >account [a"kAUnt]
                            > >
                            > >konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                            > >plats [plAts]
                            > >prins [prIns]
                            > >
                            > >fuks [fUks]
                            > >seks [sEks] = 6
                            > >ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                            > >klimaks ["kli:mAks]
                            > >
                            > >but in obvious loans:
                            > >
                            > >sex [sEks] = fucking
                            > >box [bOks] = sport
                            > >ex [Eks]
                            > >fax [fAks]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:
                            > >
                            > >ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                            > >or
                            > >ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                            > >"I fucked that sweet chick"
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >>
                            > > >> I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical
                            > > >> for the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> I for me prefer in FS:
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> chaos ["xa:Os]
                            > > >> technik [tEx"nIk]
                            > > >> monarchi [monar"xi]
                            > > >> chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                            > > >> Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> centrum ["sEntrUm]
                            > > >> citron [si"tro:n]
                            > > >> cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                            > > >> kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                            > > >> kaffi ["kAfi]
                            > > >> laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Also in words with both soft and hard c
                            > > >>
                            > > >> cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                            > > >> koncert [kOn"sErt]
                            > > >> akcent [ak"sEnt]
                            > > >> encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                            > > >> cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                            > > >>
                            > > >> café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                            > > >> concours [kON"ku:r]
                            > > >> computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                            > > >> Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                            > > >> colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                            > > >> cokes [ko:ks]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> machine [ma"Si:n@]
                            > > >> chic [Sik]
                            > > >> China ["Si:na]
                            > > >> chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> chip [tSIp]
                            > > >> charter ["tSArt@r]
                            > > >> coach [ko:tS]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Qu => kw
                            > > >>
                            > > >> kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                            > > >> kwart [kPArt]
                            > > >> kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> But in obvious loans, qu
                            > > >>
                            > > >> quiz [kwIz]
                            > > >> quiche [kiS]
                            > > >> quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                            > > >>
                            > > >> So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages
                            > > >> have [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider
                            > > >> to allow
                            > > >> Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd
                            > > >> want
                            > > >> to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the
                            > > >> norm.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Chamavian
                            >
                          • David Parke
                            When I look are fotograf or teori instead of photograph or theori , they look somehow austere. Like I am looking at the skeleton of the word. These are
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              When I look are "fotograf" or "teori" instead of "photograph" or
                              "theori", they look somehow austere. Like I am looking at the skeleton
                              of the word.
                              These are questions of taste and aesthetics mostly. I like "ck" vers
                              "kk" purely because it looks better and less foreign to my English
                              speaker's eyes. "kk" at the end of a word (such as "tikk" or "sokk")
                              looks especially strange.
                              But I think we need to consider the difference between preferences
                              that lead to confusion and ones that don't.
                              qu, x, ck could be made into consistant rules.
                              [kP] is always "qu",
                              [ks] is always "x",
                              [kk] is always "ck". ([k] after a short vowel in other words)

                              But I admit that it's 3 extra rules to learn and "kw", "ks", "kk"
                              would involve less rules. But like I said before, it's not the rules
                              that are the problem, it's the EXCEPTIONS that lead to most confusion.

                              Th, ph are OK in one direction; Anybody who passively reads the words
                              on paper will know that they are pronounced [t], [f]. But when
                              somebody hears a word with [t] or [f], how will they know whether to
                              spell it with ph or f, th or t? If you speak a language that has
                              merged th/t, ph/f, then you will be at a particular disadvantage here,
                              since you can't draw on experience from your own language to assist you.

                              It's strange the the recent German spelling reforms have changed most
                              "ph" to "f", but not "th" to "t".

                              I'd like to know what Stephan Schneider feels about these issues, then
                              we'd have some better indication of the majority way to go...

                              --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                              <xipirho@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > oh man. SURELY we can have enough logic to either have <th> and <ph>
                              > or <t> and <f> not a "oh that looks a bit poorish [whatever poorish
                              > means] to me" compromise! :-)
                              >
                              > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > What does that mean egzaktly in this kase, an ekstrawurst?
                              > > Something like a special rule or a privilege for a limited group?
                              > >
                              > > One last thing: I think FS should have f not ph:
                              > >
                              > > fotografi [fotogra"fi:]
                              > > filosofi [filoso"fi:]
                              > > fysisch ["fy:zIS]
                              > > feuniks ["f2:nIks]
                              > > diftong ["dIftON]
                              > >
                              > > but I think also th:
                              > >
                              > > theater [te"a:t@r]
                              > > thee [te:]
                              > > theori [te'o"ri:]
                              > >
                              > > maybe teater, tee and teori would be phine, too, altough tis looks a
                              > > bit poorish too me...
                              > >
                              > > Ingmar
                              > >
                              > > > eugeniusz.slowik schrieb:
                              > > > > Dagse Chambo,
                              > > > > I support your orthography, but I am against an "Extrawurst" for
                              > > > > Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they like.
                              > > > > Eugene
                              > >
                              > > > chamavian schrieb:
                              > > >
                              > > >Oh, I forgot about
                              > > >
                              > > >FS:
                              > > >
                              > > >akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                              > > >akkolade [Ako"la:d@]
                              > > >
                              > > >but:
                              > > >account [a"kAUnt]
                              > > >
                              > > >konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                              > > >plats [plAts]
                              > > >prins [prIns]
                              > > >
                              > > >fuks [fUks]
                              > > >seks [sEks] = 6
                              > > >ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                              > > >klimaks ["kli:mAks]
                              > > >
                              > > >but in obvious loans:
                              > > >
                              > > >sex [sEks] = fucking
                              > > >box [bOks] = sport
                              > > >ex [Eks]
                              > > >fax [fAks]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:
                              > > >
                              > > >ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                              > > >or
                              > > >ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                              > > >"I fucked that sweet chick"
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so typical
                              > > > >> for the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> I for me prefer in FS:
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> chaos ["xa:Os]
                              > > > >> technik [tEx"nIk]
                              > > > >> monarchi [monar"xi]
                              > > > >> chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                              > > > >> Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> centrum ["sEntrUm]
                              > > > >> citron [si"tro:n]
                              > > > >> cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                              > > > >> kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                              > > > >> kaffi ["kAfi]
                              > > > >> laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Also in words with both soft and hard c
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                              > > > >> koncert [kOn"sErt]
                              > > > >> akcent [ak"sEnt]
                              > > > >> encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                              > > > >> cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> café/kafee [ka"fe:]
                              > > > >> concours [kON"ku:r]
                              > > > >> computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                              > > > >> Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                              > > > >> colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                              > > > >> cokes [ko:ks]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> machine [ma"Si:n@]
                              > > > >> chic [Sik]
                              > > > >> China ["Si:na]
                              > > > >> chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> chip [tSIp]
                              > > > >> charter ["tSArt@r]
                              > > > >> coach [ko:tS]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Qu => kw
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                              > > > >> kwart [kPArt]
                              > > > >> kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> But in obvious loans, qu
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> quiz [kwIz]
                              > > > >> quiche [kiS]
                              > > > >> quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic languages
                              > > > >> have [s] here, except for German. Of course we might consider
                              > > > >> to allow
                              > > > >> Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if they'd
                              > > > >> want
                              > > > >> to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as the
                              > > > >> norm.
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Chamavian
                              > >
                              >
                            • chamavian
                              ... skeleton ... For me, I got the same thing with teori but not with fotograf ... vers ... or sokk ) ... rules ... confusion. Why not kw and ks, but ck?
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 3, 2006
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                                --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > When I look are "fotograf" or "teori" instead of "photograph" or
                                > "theori", they look somehow austere. Like I am looking at the
                                skeleton
                                > of the word.

                                For me, I got the same thing with "teori" but not with "fotograf"


                                > These are questions of taste and aesthetics mostly. I like "ck"
                                vers
                                > "kk" purely because it looks better and less foreign to my English
                                > speaker's eyes. "kk" at the end of a word (such as "tikk"
                                or "sokk")
                                > looks especially strange.
                                > But I think we need to consider the difference between preferences
                                > that lead to confusion and ones that don't.
                                > qu, x, ck could be made into consistant rules.
                                > [kP] is always "qu",
                                > [ks] is always "x",
                                > [kk] is always "ck". ([k] after a short vowel in other words)
                                >
                                > But I admit that it's 3 extra rules to learn and "kw", "ks", "kk"
                                > would involve less rules. But like I said before, it's not the
                                rules
                                > that are the problem, it's the EXCEPTIONS that lead to most
                                confusion.

                                Why not kw and ks, but ck? That's a simple rule, too.
                                Having kw and ks doesn't mean we have to use qu as well, does it?



                                >
                                > Th, ph are OK in one direction; Anybody who passively reads the
                                words
                                > on paper will know that they are pronounced [t], [f]. But when
                                > somebody hears a word with [t] or [f], how will they know whether
                                to
                                > spell it with ph or f, th or t? If you speak a language that has
                                > merged th/t, ph/f, then you will be at a particular disadvantage
                                here,
                                > since you can't draw on experience from your own language to
                                assist you.
                                >
                                > It's strange the the recent German spelling reforms have changed
                                most
                                > "ph" to "f", but not "th" to "t".


                                The same in Dutch: we have f not ph, but th not t. And that makes

                                3 out of four source languages have f (not ph):
                                German, Dutch and Scandinavian = > hence FS "f"
                                That's not difficult: the English speakers only have to remember to
                                turn ph into f.

                                but also 3 out of four sourceages have th (not t):
                                English, German and Dutch = > hence FS "th".
                                And virtually all Scandinavians know English, and most of them
                                German too, so for this relatively small group, turning t into th
                                in Graeco Latin loans won't be such a big deal.

                                About ck in "foreign" words: it wouldn't be my firsty choice, but
                                we could write ackurat in stead of akkurat, for of regularity's sake

                                Ingmar




                                >
                                > I'd like to know what Stephan Schneider feels about these issues,
                                then
                                > we'd have some better indication of the majority way to go...
                                >
                                > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
                                > <xipirho@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > oh man. SURELY we can have enough logic to either have <th> and
                                <ph>
                                > > or <t> and <f> not a "oh that looks a bit poorish [whatever
                                poorish
                                > > means] to me" compromise! :-)
                                > >
                                > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > What does that mean egzaktly in this kase, an ekstrawurst?
                                > > > Something like a special rule or a privilege for a limited
                                group?
                                > > >
                                > > > One last thing: I think FS should have f not ph:
                                > > >
                                > > > fotografi [fotogra"fi:]
                                > > > filosofi [filoso"fi:]
                                > > > fysisch ["fy:zIS]
                                > > > feuniks ["f2:nIks]
                                > > > diftong ["dIftON]
                                > > >
                                > > > but I think also th:
                                > > >
                                > > > theater [te"a:t@r]
                                > > > thee [te:]
                                > > > theori [te'o"ri:]
                                > > >
                                > > > maybe teater, tee and teori would be phine, too, altough tis
                                looks a
                                > > > bit poorish too me...
                                > > >
                                > > > Ingmar
                                > > >
                                > > > > eugeniusz.slowik schrieb:
                                > > > > > Dagse Chambo,
                                > > > > > I support your orthography, but I am against
                                an "Extrawurst" for
                                > > > > > Germans, let them pronounce the "c" in centrum as they
                                like.
                                > > > > > Eugene
                                > > >
                                > > > > chamavian schrieb:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Oh, I forgot about
                                > > > >
                                > > > >FS:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >akkurat [Aku"ra:t]
                                > > > >akkolade [Ako"la:d@]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >but:
                                > > > >account [a"kAUnt]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >konferens [kOmf@"rEns]
                                > > > >plats [plAts]
                                > > > >prins [prIns]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >fuks [fUks]
                                > > > >seks [sEks] = 6
                                > > > >ekskusere [Eksku"ze:r@]
                                > > > >klimaks ["kli:mAks]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >but in obvious loans:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >sex [sEks] = fucking
                                > > > >box [bOks] = sport
                                > > > >ex [Eks]
                                > > > >fax [fAks]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >for "native" Germanic words, -ck for -kk is fine to me:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >ick fyckede dat lecker maid ["Ik fYk@d@ dAt "lEk@r mAId]
                                > > > >or
                                > > > >ikk fykkede dat lekker maid
                                > > > >"I fucked that sweet chick"
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> I'd like to see the chaos and anarchy that has been so
                                typical
                                > > > > >> for the Folksprak-community come to an end.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> I for me prefer in FS:
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Greek/Latin ch => FS ch [x]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> chaos ["xa:Os]
                                > > > > >> technik [tEx"nIk]
                                > > > > >> monarchi [monar"xi]
                                > > > > >> chloride [xlo"ri:d@]
                                > > > > >> Christus ["xrIstUs] or ["krIstUs]?
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Latin ce/ci/cy => FS c- [s]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> centrum ["sEntrUm]
                                > > > > >> citron [si"tro:n]
                                > > > > >> cynisch ["sy:nIS]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Latin ca/co/cu => FS k- [k]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> karakter [ka"rAkt@r]
                                > > > > >> kooperere [ko'op@"re:r@]
                                > > > > >> kaffi ["kAfi]
                                > > > > >> laktose [lAk"to:z@]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Also in words with both soft and hard c
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> cyklon [sy"klo:n]
                                > > > > >> koncert [kOn"sErt]
                                > > > > >> akcent [ak"sEnt]
                                > > > > >> encyklopedi [Ensyklop@"di:]
                                > > > > >> cirkus ["sIrkUs]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> But obvious loans retain their own spelling (and prono)
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> caf鯫afee [ka"fe:]
                                > > > > >> concours [kON"ku:r]
                                > > > > >> computer [kOm"pju:t@r]
                                > > > > >> Colombia [ko"lOmbia]
                                > > > > >> colloquium [kO"lo:kiUm]
                                > > > > >> cokes [ko:ks]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> machine [ma"Si:n@]
                                > > > > >> chic [Sik]
                                > > > > >> China ["Si:na]
                                > > > > >> chocolade [Soko"la:d@]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> chip [tSIp]
                                > > > > >> charter ["tSArt@r]
                                > > > > >> coach [ko:tS]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Qu => kw
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> kwalitet [kPali"te:t]
                                > > > > >> kwart [kPArt]
                                > > > > >> kwestion [kPesti"o:n]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> But in obvious loans, qu
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> quiz [kwIz]
                                > > > > >> quiche [kiS]
                                > > > > >> quickstep ["kwIkstEp]
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> So: ce,ci,cy has [s], not [ts], because all Germanic
                                languages
                                > > > > >> have [s] here, except for German. Of course we might
                                consider
                                > > > > >> to allow
                                > > > > >> Germans to have their own accent in FS, and use [ts] if
                                they'd
                                > > > > >> want
                                > > > > >> to, but only as a possible alternative, certainly not as
                                the
                                > > > > >> norm.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Chamavian
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • David Parke
                                ... Like I said, it s an aesthetic preference. I accept that ks , kw , kk are phonetic and mean less rules to learn. BUT x , qu , ck can be made
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 3, 2006
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                                  --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "David Parke" <parked@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > When I look are "fotograf" or "teori" instead of "photograph" or
                                  > > "theori", they look somehow austere. Like I am looking at the
                                  > skeleton
                                  > > of the word.
                                  >
                                  > For me, I got the same thing with "teori" but not with "fotograf"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > These are questions of taste and aesthetics mostly. I like "ck"
                                  > vers
                                  > > "kk" purely because it looks better and less foreign to my English
                                  > > speaker's eyes. "kk" at the end of a word (such as "tikk"
                                  > or "sokk")
                                  > > looks especially strange.
                                  > > But I think we need to consider the difference between preferences
                                  > > that lead to confusion and ones that don't.
                                  > > qu, x, ck could be made into consistant rules.
                                  > > [kP] is always "qu",
                                  > > [ks] is always "x",
                                  > > [kk] is always "ck". ([k] after a short vowel in other words)
                                  > >
                                  > > But I admit that it's 3 extra rules to learn and "kw", "ks", "kk"
                                  > > would involve less rules. But like I said before, it's not the
                                  > rules
                                  > > that are the problem, it's the EXCEPTIONS that lead to most
                                  > confusion.
                                  >
                                  > Why not kw and ks, but ck? That's a simple rule, too.
                                  > Having kw and ks doesn't mean we have to use qu as well, does it?
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Like I said, it's an aesthetic preference. I accept that "ks", "kw",
                                  "kk" are phonetic and mean less rules to learn. BUT "x", "qu", "ck"
                                  can be made regular. I was drawing a distinction between rules that
                                  could be learnt and un-rules, (like "ph" and "th" having the same
                                  prono as "f", "t"), where you need to learn each word individually.


                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Th, ph are OK in one direction; Anybody who passively reads the
                                  > words
                                  > > on paper will know that they are pronounced [t], [f]. But when
                                  > > somebody hears a word with [t] or [f], how will they know whether
                                  > to
                                  > > spell it with ph or f, th or t? If you speak a language that has
                                  > > merged th/t, ph/f, then you will be at a particular disadvantage
                                  > here,
                                  > > since you can't draw on experience from your own language to
                                  > assist you.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's strange the the recent German spelling reforms have changed
                                  > most
                                  > > "ph" to "f", but not "th" to "t".
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The same in Dutch: we have f not ph, but th not t. And that makes
                                  >
                                  > 3 out of four source languages have f (not ph):
                                  > German, Dutch and Scandinavian = > hence FS "f"
                                  > That's not difficult: the English speakers only have to remember to
                                  > turn ph into f.
                                  >
                                  > but also 3 out of four sourceages have th (not t):
                                  > English, German and Dutch = > hence FS "th".
                                  > And virtually all Scandinavians know English, and most of them
                                  > German too, so for this relatively small group, turning t into th
                                  > in Graeco Latin loans won't be such a big deal.
                                  >

                                  Well why don't we all just speak English or German? English
                                  pronounces "th" as [T], to it is phonetic at least (a rare thing for
                                  English). In English it makes total sense to spell "theater" with "th"
                                  and not "t". There are a few exceptions (we're talking about English
                                  here), such as "Thames", "Thailand", "thar"

                                  And what about people from non-germanic language communities?
                                  If you speak French, you should have little problem with "ph", "th".
                                  But if you speak, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, this is going
                                  to be a little bit harder. (Gee I hope they all know how to speak
                                  English or German too)


                                  > About ck in "foreign" words: it wouldn't be my firsty choice, but
                                  > we could write ackurat in stead of akkurat, for of regularity's sake

                                  "ackurat", "ackumulator", "attackere". Looks lovely ;-) But if we
                                  have "ck" instead of "kk", I think we would need to apply it to all
                                  words, otherwise it gets harder to learn.

                                  >
                                  > Ingmar
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > I'd like to know what Stephan Schneider feels about these issues,
                                  > then
                                  > > we'd have some better indication of the majority way to go...
                                  > >
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