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9788Re: My FS

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  • chamavian
    Nov 2, 2006
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      Don't go say I fooled you guys, or didn't you know that Chamavian and
      your old buddy Ingmar were one and the same?

      "Chamavian" because of my original home region Hamaland, after the
      old Germanic tribe called Chamavii [xA"ma:vi:] by the Romans. The
      Chamavians were a Low Franconian people in the Eastern parts of the
      Dutch province of Gelderland/Guelders, the South of Salland in the
      province Overijssel(called after the Franconian Salii that migrated
      from there to become the French) and some adjacent parts of
      Westphalia in Germany.

      Nowadays Hamaland (or "Hameland") is the name for a much smaller
      area: the East of the Guelders Achterhoek in the Netherlands, and the
      Westmünsterland in Westphalia, Germany.

      The funny thing is that present Hamaland is thoroughly Low Saxon
      speaking in stead of Low Franconian. At the anniversary site of the
      Lowlands linguists list, you can find the famous Wren story in the
      Hamaland Low Saxon versions of my place of birth Winterswijk
      (or "Wenters" in LS), and of Bocholt ("Bokelt" in LS) in the
      Westmünsterland. My grantmother translated the Wenters version and I
      recorded it. The link to this is

      Winterswijk is in the centre of modern Hamaland, hence: Chamavian.
      Cham is an abbreviation of course, pronounced [xAm].

      I'm aware of the biblical Cham as well, who gave name to the Hamitic
      language group and peoples in East Africa. At least, that's Cham
      [xAm] in the Dutch Bible... And since I'm very interested in African
      cultures and languages as well, this abbreviations fits me well.

      To end with a Hamaland salute:

      Goodgaon! [Go:dGQ:~]

      Cham








      --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley Sukius"
      <xipirho@...> wrote:
      >
      > En frag Ingmar - warfor "Cham"?
      >
      >
      > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hei Stephan
      > >
      > > In the concrete cases were ProtoGermanic -k mutated in several or
      > > most source languages into something else, it should have a
      > > different consonant in FS as well. So:
      > >
      > > PG *ik > ich (G), I (E), jeg (D), jag (S), ik (NL) => ig (FS)
      > >
      > > PG *-lik > -lich, -ly, -lig, -lig, -lijk => -lig (FS)
      > >
      > > But not in most other cases like "spreke" or "make", because
      there
      > > only German mutated k into ch, the rest retained original k.
      > >
      > > Creating Folksprak, we have to learn not to think too much of
      > > ProtoGermanic, a language no-one knows or is even reconstructed
      > > completely, because that language is about just as foreign and
      > > incomprehensible for speakers of modern Germanic languages as
      Latin
      > > or Old Irish.
      > >
      > > If we want a simple FS that is easily recognizable and under-
      > > standable we have to start from what is already there with the
      > > learners, and that is the knowledge of their own Germanic
      language
      > > and maybe one or two others.
      > >
      > > You may think it's confusing to you when you see a sentence like
      > >
      > > "naturlig ig spreke alrede Folksprak"
      > >
      > > because it has both -g and -k from a ProtoGermanic point of view.
      > > And German has -ch here (but not in "Volk-", so it's not
      completely
      > > regular too)
      > >
      > > But if you look at English and Scandinavian, we find -ly and -
      lig,
      > > and I and jeg/jag/jei, so final -k is more confusing to speakers
      of
      > > those languages.
      > >
      > > See what I mean?
      > >
      > > And this is only about very few and very much used words, I don't
      > > think that's so confusing, for no-one but especially not for you.
      > >
      > > Cham
      > >
      > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "stefichjo" <sts@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Cham,
      > > >
      > > > "ig" was my first approach for "I", too, for same reasons that
      you
      > > > pointed out.
      > > >
      > > > But...
      > > > In Berlin we say "ick", too. :-)
      > > >
      > > > And in German and English for instance many post-vocalic "k"
      > became
      > > > "ch" or "j" like in EN "-ly", DE "-lich". And PG *sk often
      turns
      > > to EN
      > > > "sh" and DE "sch".
      > > >
      > > > So this could also be FS:
      > > > "naturlich sprech ich schon folksprach"
      > > >
      > > > But this would go far too deep into the German pronunciation,
      so I
      > > > left it like this (which looks much more neuter to me):
      > > > "naturlik sprek ik skon folksprak"
      > > >
      > > > Something intermediate would seem too confusion too me.
      > > >
      > > > Bye,
      > > > Stephan
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "chamavian" <roerd096@>
      wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Sorry, I couldn't open the link, only get commercial stuff.
      > > Maybe you
      > > > > can just put it in our Files section?
      > > > >
      > > > > By the way, "ig" is much more representative for the major
      > > living
      > > > > Germanic languages than "ik" (or "ick", "ikk"). The first
      > > pronoun
      > > > > singular ending in final -k only exists in Dutch "ik".
      > > > > English I has no ending (or maybe a "j"?), German the soft ch
      > > [C] and
      > > > > Scandinavian a, mostly silent, -g Da "jeg", Sw "jag",
      > > > > NorwBM "jei"(NewNorw "eg").
      > > > >
      > > > > So if we'd take an average final sound, it would be
      defenitely
      > > not -k,
      > > > > but rather -g:
      > > > >
      > > > > English -
      > > > > German ch
      > > > > Dutch k
      > > > > Scandi g
      > > > >
      > > > > If we'd take more languages and count them all, the picture
      > > won't
      > > > > change:
      > > > >
      > > > > English - (j?)
      > > > > German ch
      > > > > Dutch(+Afr) k
      > > > > Danish g
      > > > > LowSaxon k
      > > > > Icelandic g
      > > > > Norwegian - (j?)
      > > > > Swedish g
      > > > > Frisian k
      > > > > Swytzer -
      > > > > Yiddish sh
      > > > > etc.
      > > > >
      > > > > here we find 3 final k's and 3 final g's, 3 silent and 2
      other,
      > > > > although most final g's are pronounced as if silent.
      > > > > The average sound of this can never be the hard k.
      > > > > But as most people here don't want to take too many source
      > > languages
      > > > > into account: even if one would only take English I and Dutch
      > > ik, the
      > > > > intermediate should be with final g. That's phonoLogics.
      > > > >
      > > > > For that alone, to me the FS pronoun first pers sing can only
      > > be "ig".
      > > > >
      > > > > Something else is that in Danish and Norwegian "ikke"
      > > means "not",
      > > > > which would make it confusing for Scandies if FS "ik"
      meant "I".
      > > > > "Ig" is immediately recognizable for everyone.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cham
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In folkspraak@yahoogroups.com, "Roly Sookias/Roley
      Sukius"
      > > > > <xipirho@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Ik witt nit ov ik hav dis forhir segd, aver ik hav en
      bittken
      > > info
      > > > > up-
      > > > > > an hu ik tenk FS schuld wese hir
      > > http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/
      > > > > > rsookias/myfolksprak.html . Et giv en oder two tings nu dé
      ik
      > > tenk
      > > > > ar
      > > > > > fremd - ik tenk "ik" iss magwes better als "ig", end "bai-
      > > said" ik
      > > > > > tenk schuld "besaid" oder "bai" wese for "bai-said" iss
      swer
      > > tu
      > > > > sege.
      > > > > > Ok ik brauk de schraibungs "sch" end "ch" nu ...aver "sh"
      > > and "h" ar
      > > > > > OK sikker.
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
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