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Flex Remoting Options - Any Opinions?

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  • Bruce Hopkins
    Hi all, All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java backend. Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won t be an option for us. So far the
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 16, 2007
      Hi all,

      All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java backend. Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So far the biggest contenders are:

      1. Granite Data Services
      2. OpenAMF
      3. WebORB
      4. Red5

      Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on either of these solutions?

      Thanks,

      Bruce
    • Jeff Schuenke
      You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am using this for communications with a JAVA backend. ... backend. ... far the ... either of
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 16, 2007
        You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
        using this for communications with a JAVA backend.

        --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
        backend.
        > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
        far the
        > biggest contenders are:
        >
        > 1. Granite Data Services
        > 2. OpenAMF
        > 3. WebORB
        > 4. Red5
        >
        > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
        either of
        > these solutions?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Bruce
        >
      • Bruce Hopkins
        Yeah, I m using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large data results, however, XML is not desirable. I d prefer to use some framework that uses
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 16, 2007
          Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large data results, however, XML is not desirable.

          I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get more compact results.

          Bruce

          On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@...> wrote:

          You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
          using this for communications with a JAVA backend.

          --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>


          wrote:
          >
          > Hi all,
          >
          > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
          backend.
          > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
          far the
          > biggest contenders are:
          >
          > 1. Granite Data Services
          > 2. OpenAMF
          > 3. WebORB
          > 4. Red5
          >
          > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
          either of
          > these solutions?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Bruce
          >


        • Anatole Tartakovsky
          Bruce, None of the options you have would work for serious production application unless you invest heavily in making the client and server code more reliable.
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 16, 2007
            Bruce,
                None of the options you have would work for serious production application unless you invest heavily in making the client and server code more reliable. Please keep in mind that once you go that route you are on your own for data traffic robustness and performance.
             
            I would try to see if you can scale application in any other way - 4 core single CPU and removal all business functionality to different servers is always an option. You might get even better scalablity by going RTMP route or provide pseudo-connectivity wrapper using non-blocking IO  via client - proxy - LCDS - Messaging - LCDS - proxy -client pish.
             
            Regards,
            Anatole
             
            On 10/16/07, Bruce Hopkins <bhopkins@...> wrote:

            Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large data results, however, XML is not desirable.

            I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get more compact results.

            Bruce



            On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@... > wrote:

            You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
            using this for communications with a JAVA backend.

            --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>


            wrote:
            >
            > Hi all,
            >
            > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
            backend.
            > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
            far the
            > biggest contenders are:
            >
            > 1. Granite Data Services
            > 2. OpenAMF
            > 3. WebORB
            > 4. Red5
            >
            > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
            either of
            > these solutions?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Bruce
            >



          • Paul Dale
            Has the pricing been improved on LCDS? When I last looked into FDS it was ~20k EUR per CPU, which is just silly.
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 16, 2007
              Has the pricing been improved on LCDS? When I last looked into FDS it was ~20k EUR per CPU, which is just silly.

              On 10/16/07, Anatole Tartakovsky < anatole.tartakovsky@...> wrote:

              Bruce,
                  None of the options you have would work for serious production application unless you invest heavily in making the client and server code more reliable. Please keep in mind that once you go that route you are on your own for data traffic robustness and performance.
               
              I would try to see if you can scale application in any other way - 4 core single CPU and removal all business functionality to different servers is always an option. You might get even better scalablity by going RTMP route or provide pseudo-connectivity wrapper using non-blocking IO  via client - proxy - LCDS - Messaging - LCDS - proxy -client pish.
               
              Regards,
              Anatole
               
              On 10/16/07, Bruce Hopkins <bhopkins@... > wrote:

              Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large data results, however, XML is not desirable.

              I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get more compact results.

              Bruce



              On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@... > wrote:

              You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
              using this for communications with a JAVA backend.

              --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>


              wrote:
              >
              > Hi all,
              >
              > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
              backend.
              > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
              far the
              > biggest contenders are:
              >
              > 1. Granite Data Services
              > 2. OpenAMF
              > 3. WebORB
              > 4. Red5
              >
              > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
              either of
              > these solutions?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Bruce
              >




            • tomeuchre
              ... large data ... more compact ... am ... 40yahoogroups.com , Bruce ... Java ... So ... I can tell you what my experience has been so far with Granite Data
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 16, 2007
                --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for
                large data
                > results, however, XML is not desirable.
                >
                > I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get
                more compact
                > results.
                >
                > Bruce
                >
                > On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I
                am
                > > using this for communications with a JAVA backend.
                > >
                > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <flexcoders%
                40yahoogroups.com>, "Bruce
                > > Hopkins" <bhopkins@>
                > >
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi all,
                > > >
                > > > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my
                Java
                > > backend.
                > > > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us.
                So
                > > far the
                > > > biggest contenders are:
                > > >
                > > > 1. Granite Data Services
                > > > 2. OpenAMF
                > > > 3. WebORB
                > > > 4. Red5
                > > >
                > > > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
                > > either of
                > > > these solutions?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > >
                > > > Bruce
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                I can tell you what my experience has been so far with Granite Data
                Services:
                1) I installed Granite Data Services and was able to get the
                Graniteds-pojo example up and running in no time. It is clearly what
                it says it is -- a good replacement for FDS, although I have not
                tried the EJB or Spring versions.
                2) I am able to have integrated Flex apps with the web app or I can
                run my Flex app from my Flex builder and have it remotely invoke my
                bean methods in my web app running separately. This was cool.
                3) MY PROBLEM (and I am open for suggestions for users of GDS) is
                that my production web apps (not the test pojo beans/methods I use
                for the GDS tests) are JSP/JSF applications with managed beans. My
                problem for using GDS with RemoteObject calls into my managed beans
                is that the methods expect there to be a FacesContext in the
                dependent methods that are utilized in other utility beans (why not --
                it was built for JSP Pages after all.)
                This has caused me to spend several days trying to come up with a way
                to create a facescontext from nothing within the main bean I am
                calling remotely from Flex (with lifecycle, application,
                servletcontext, etc.) so that I can fool my utility beans that are
                being called to not throw nullargumentexceptions when there is no
                context. I have seen examples of how to do this in servelets, but I
                just can't come up with a way to do it in the bean. I could use
                HTTPservice calls to invoke jsp pages, but that's not quite as sexy
                as using remote object calls with RPC and Granite, and it ruins the
                ideal framework I was planning using Cairngorm-style delegates, etc.

                So....I thank the wonderful folks at Granite that have provided
                insight, but they are in a catch-22. They are so busy it seems
                putting in features that they don't have time to make really good
                documentation, so I spend a lot of time doing full LOG4J debug traces
                and stepping through code (yes -- I can run my separate Flex app
                started from FlexBuilder in Debug mode and step through my Flex app
                to the remote bean and back -- ain't it cool?)

                If I ever am able to create a FacesContext on demand in my bean when
                invoked by a remote call from Flex through GDS, then I will cry from
                the mountaintops in favor of GDS and urge Adobe to throw LCDS into
                the open-source realm, because GDS rocks and LCDS is keeping too many
                people away from using Flex. I want to use my existing web apps and
                their dozens of beans without having to change them (and add only a
                facade bean to interface to them -- if I can do that, there is no
                limit.)

                My two cents. I'll post updates when I have more, but it is very
                promising.
              • Bruce Hopkins
                Tom, Thanks for your feed back on GDS. I have one question for you though. When I ran the simple Pojo example, I saw in the output from my Tomcat server that
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 17, 2007
                  Tom,

                  Thanks for your feed back on GDS. I have one question for you though. When I ran the simple Pojo example, I saw in the output from my Tomcat server that GDS was using AMF0, although it was supposed to be using AMF3. Do you know why that is?

                  Thanks,

                  Bruce

                  On 10/16/07, tomeuchre <braz@...> wrote:


                  I can tell you what my experience has been so far with Granite Data
                  Services:
                  1) I installed Granite Data Services and was able to get the
                  Graniteds-pojo example up and running in no time. It is clearly what
                  it says it is -- a good replacement for FDS, although I have not
                  tried the EJB or Spring versions.
                  2) I am able to have integrated Flex apps with the web app or I can
                  run my Flex app from my Flex builder and have it remotely invoke my
                  bean methods in my web app running separately. This was cool.
                  3) MY PROBLEM (and I am open for suggestions for users of GDS) is
                  that my production web apps (not the test pojo beans/methods I use
                  for the GDS tests) are JSP/JSF applications with managed beans. My
                  problem for using GDS with RemoteObject calls into my managed beans
                  is that the methods expect there to be a FacesContext in the
                  dependent methods that are utilized in other utility beans (why not --
                  it was built for JSP Pages after all.)
                  This has caused me to spend several days trying to come up with a way
                  to create a facescontext from nothing within the main bean I am
                  calling remotely from Flex (with lifecycle, application,
                  servletcontext, etc.) so that I can fool my utility beans that are
                  being called to not throw nullargumentexceptions when there is no
                  context. I have seen examples of how to do this in servelets, but I
                  just can't come up with a way to do it in the bean. I could use
                  HTTPservice calls to invoke jsp pages, but that's not quite as sexy
                  as using remote object calls with RPC and Granite, and it ruins the
                  ideal framework I was planning using Cairngorm-style delegates, etc.

                  So....I thank the wonderful folks at Granite that have provided
                  insight, but they are in a catch-22. They are so busy it seems
                  putting in features that they don't have time to make really good
                  documentation, so I spend a lot of time doing full LOG4J debug traces
                  and stepping through code (yes -- I can run my separate Flex app
                  started from FlexBuilder in Debug mode and step through my Flex app
                  to the remote bean and back -- ain't it cool?)

                  If I ever am able to create a FacesContext on demand in my bean when
                  invoked by a remote call from Flex through GDS, then I will cry from
                  the mountaintops in favor of GDS and urge Adobe to throw LCDS into
                  the open-source realm, because GDS rocks and LCDS is keeping too many
                  people away from using Flex. I want to use my existing web apps and
                  their dozens of beans without having to change them (and add only a
                  facade bean to interface to them -- if I can do that, there is no
                  limit.)

                  My two cents. I'll post updates when I have more, but it is very
                  promising.


                • tomeuchre
                  ... When I ... server that ... know ... If have run full DEBUG and see that the message from the AMFMessageFilter.doFilter method outputs a line stating
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 17, 2007
                    --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your feed back on GDS. I have one question for you though.
                    When I
                    > ran the simple Pojo example, I saw in the output from my Tomcat
                    server that
                    > GDS was using AMF0, although it was supposed to be using AMF3. Do you
                    know
                    > why that is?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Bruce
                    >

                    If have run full DEBUG and see that the message from the
                    AMFMessageFilter.doFilter method outputs a line stating ">>Incoming
                    AMF0 request from http....", but if you follow the linkage in the debug
                    chain, it seems that it expects AMF0 but if it detects AMF3, it passes
                    off to AMF3 handlers:
                    AMFMessageFilter > AMF0Deserializer (detects AMF3_OBJECT) >
                    AMF3Deserializer > AMF3CommandMessageProcessor, etc.
                    So, the message you probably saw was the simple message from the
                    initial reception of the message in AMFMessageFilter, but it does
                    indeed handle AMF3, as my traces have shown.
                  • Bruce Hopkins
                    Thanks!
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 17, 2007
                      Thanks!

                      On 10/17/07, tomeuchre <braz@...> wrote:

                      --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your feed back on GDS. I have one question for you though.
                      When I
                      > ran the simple Pojo example, I saw in the output from my Tomcat
                      server that
                      > GDS was using AMF0, although it was supposed to be using AMF3. Do you
                      know
                      > why that is?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Bruce
                      >

                      If have run full DEBUG and see that the message from the
                      AMFMessageFilter.doFilter method outputs a line stating ">>Incoming
                      AMF0 request from http....", but if you follow the linkage in the debug
                      chain, it seems that it expects AMF0 but if it detects AMF3, it passes
                      off to AMF3 handlers:
                      AMFMessageFilter > AMF0Deserializer (detects AMF3_OBJECT) >
                      AMF3Deserializer > AMF3CommandMessageProcessor, etc.
                      So, the message you probably saw was the simple message from the
                      initial reception of the message in AMFMessageFilter, but it does
                      indeed handle AMF3, as my traces have shown.


                    • tomeuchre
                      PS - I did something that Granite didn t think was possible (or at least very easy to do): I got Granite Data Services working with Flex making remote AMF3/rpc
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 17, 2007
                        PS - I did something that Granite didn't think was possible (or at
                        least very easy to do):

                        I got Granite Data Services working with Flex making remote AMF3/rpc
                        calls to a JSF Web Application. There were numerous potential issues
                        involved in this (faces context, phases, lifecycle), but I was able to
                        do it with native GDS, native Flex and no changes to any existing code
                        in my (massive) JSF Web applications. I simply had to add a single java
                        class to my web app and some changes to my web.xml.

                        I am working on a project hard right now, but will post the HOW-TO
                        notes here when I have a chance.

                        Since Granite works with pojo, Spring, EJB, and now JSF applications, I
                        can't imagine why someone would be willing to pay that much money for
                        LCDS. Great performance also.

                        Tom
                      • mattmadhavan
                        Hello, I am just starting to use graniteDS and starting to likie it. My -ONLY- problem was that, I cannot make it work from within my flexbuilder environment.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 15, 2007
                          Hello,
                          I am just starting to use graniteDS and starting to likie it. My -ONLY-
                          problem was that, I cannot make it work from within my flexbuilder
                          environment.

                          I want to be able to debug my flexbuilder application talking to my Java
                          side.

                          Can someone please give me steps doing this - I would greatly appreciate it.

                          Thanks
                          Matt



                          bruce76 wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
                          > backend.
                          > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So far the
                          > biggest contenders are:
                          >
                          > 1. Granite Data Services
                          > 2. OpenAMF
                          > 3. WebORB
                          > 4. Red5
                          >
                          > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on either of
                          > these solutions?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Bruce
                          >
                          >

                          --
                          View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Flex-Remoting-Options---Any-Opinions--tf4635386.html#a13778916
                          Sent from the FlexCoders mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                        • Samuel R. Neff
                          Why not? Is it cause your app runs from the file system within flexbuilder and the web host in production/test? If that s the case then move to Flex Builder
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 15, 2007
                            Why not? Is it 'cause your app runs from the file system within flexbuilder
                            and the web host in production/test? If that's the case then move to Flex
                            Builder 3 and set up your project with the right server-side bindings, then
                            when you run/debug from FlexBuilder it will invoke it through the web
                            server. Makes development mimic production better.

                            HTH,

                            Sam


                            -------------------------------------------
                            We're Hiring! Seeking a passionate developer to join our team building Flex
                            based products. Position is in the Washington D.C. metro area. If interested
                            contact careers@...

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of mattmadhavan
                            Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:49 PM
                            To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex Remoting Options - Any Opinions?


                            Hello,
                            I am just starting to use graniteDS and starting to likie it. My -ONLY-
                            problem was that, I cannot make it work from within my flexbuilder
                            environment.

                            I want to be able to debug my flexbuilder application talking to my Java
                            side.

                            Can someone please give me steps doing this - I would greatly appreciate it.


                            Thanks
                            Matt
                          • mattmadhavan
                            Sam, Do you mind sending me the step by step instructions? I just cannot make it work. I have two project - 1. Java web project for the java server side (Say
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 15, 2007
                              Sam,
                              Do you mind sending me the step by step instructions? I just cannot make it
                              work.

                              I have two project - 1. Java web project for the java server side (Say
                              MyWebApp). 2. A flex project with its output (bin) externalized to
                              MyWebApp/webroot(in the same level as WEB-INF).

                              And I cannot make my Flex talk to my server. If I deploy the app like the
                              way I downloaded it works fine!
                              But I donot get the benefits of using my Flexbuilder!

                              Any help will be appreciated.

                              Thanks
                              Matt



                              Samuel R. Neff wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Why not? Is it 'cause your app runs from the file system within
                              > flexbuilder
                              > and the web host in production/test? If that's the case then move to Flex
                              > Builder 3 and set up your project with the right server-side bindings,
                              > then
                              > when you run/debug from FlexBuilder it will invoke it through the web
                              > server. Makes development mimic production better.
                              >
                              > HTH,
                              >
                              > Sam
                              >
                              >
                              > -------------------------------------------
                              > We're Hiring! Seeking a passionate developer to join our team building
                              > Flex
                              > based products. Position is in the Washington D.C. metro area. If
                              > interested
                              > contact careers@...
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of mattmadhavan
                              > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:49 PM
                              > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex Remoting Options - Any Opinions?
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello,
                              > I am just starting to use graniteDS and starting to likie it. My -ONLY-
                              > problem was that, I cannot make it work from within my flexbuilder
                              > environment.
                              >
                              > I want to be able to debug my flexbuilder application talking to my Java
                              > side.
                              >
                              > Can someone please give me steps doing this - I would greatly appreciate
                              > it.
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              > Matt
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Flex-Remoting-Options---Any-Opinions--tf4635386.html#a13780055
                              Sent from the FlexCoders mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                            • Steve Hueners
                              Is there anyway to judge what level of user connections a given server can handle without requiring specialized loadsharing strategies? In a non-audio or video
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 15, 2007
                                Is there anyway to judge what level of user connections a given server can handle without requiring specialized loadsharing strategies? In a non-audio or video environment what's it take to stream an AS3 based swfs to 3-5 dozen connections?



                                On 10/16/07, Anatole Tartakovsky <anatole.tartakovsky@...> wrote:

                                I would try to see if you can scale application in any other way - 4 core single CPU and removal all business functionality to different servers is always an option. You might get even better scalablity by going RTMP route or provide pseudo-connectivity wrapper using non-blocking IO  via client - proxy - LCDS - Messaging - LCDS - proxy -client pish.
                                 
                                Regards,
                                Anatole
                                 
                                On 10/16/07, Bruce Hopkins <bhopkins@... > wrote:

                                Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large data results, however, XML is not desirable.

                                I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get more compact results.

                                Bruce



                                On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@... > wrote:

                                You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
                                using this for communications with a JAVA backend.

                                --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>


                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi all,
                                >
                                > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
                                backend.
                                > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
                                far the
                                > biggest contenders are:
                                >
                                > 1. Granite Data Services
                                > 2. OpenAMF
                                > 3. WebORB
                                > 4. Red5
                                >
                                > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
                                either of
                                > these solutions?
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                >
                                > Bruce
                                >




                              • Anatole Tartakovsky
                                That part is not AMF specific - and Apache or Tomcat will have no issues of doing it - that is purely bandwidth issue. As far as AMF/RTMP streaming main issue
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 15, 2007
                                  That part is not AMF specific - and Apache or Tomcat will have no issues of doing it - that is purely bandwidth issue.
                                   
                                  As far as AMF/RTMP streaming main issue is robustness. It is very easy to get any of the products to run on the reliable network. We do use OpenAMF and proprietary performance extensions on low cost/ non-critical projects. For high-end applications we extend LCDS stack to fix underlying TCP/IP problems(  financial clients, real-time messaging). We do not advertise low end product as it potentially might have reliability problems. Indeed, in order to provide even basic recoverability and batching on the top of openAmf  we had to write tons of code. Only with significant investment and "know how" you can get comparable performance and reliability
                                   
                                  Unless Adobe releases both ends of the protocol in the open source you would have inherient reliability issues. While we acquired significan "know how" in the last 2 years,  using native AMF and RTMP classes is a risky business as Adobe constantly changes framework and pieces of protocol.  The main effort of the testing should be around protocol performance and reliability ( like pulling the network wire).and it can be a while till AMF/RTMP will become standard - most likely only after release of the client/server code in open source.
                                   
                                  Sincerely,
                                  Anatole Tartakovsky

                                   
                                  On 11/15/07, Steve Hueners <steve@...> wrote:

                                  Is there anyway to judge what level of user connections a given server can handle without requiring specialized loadsharing strategies? In a non-audio or video environment what's it take to stream an AS3 based swfs to 3-5 dozen connections?



                                  On 10/16/07, Anatole Tartakovsky < anatole.tartakovsky@...> wrote:

                                  I would try to see if you can scale application in any other way - 4 core single CPU and removal all business functionality to different servers is always an option. You might get even better scalablity by going RTMP route or provide pseudo-connectivity wrapper using non-blocking IO  via client - proxy - LCDS - Messaging - LCDS - proxy -client pish.
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                  Anatole
                                   
                                  On 10/16/07, Bruce Hopkins <bhopkins@... > wrote:

                                  Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large data results, however, XML is not desirable.

                                  I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get more compact results.

                                  Bruce



                                  On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@... > wrote:

                                  You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
                                  using this for communications with a JAVA backend.

                                  --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>


                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi all,
                                  >
                                  > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
                                  backend.
                                  > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
                                  far the
                                  > biggest contenders are:
                                  >
                                  > 1. Granite Data Services
                                  > 2. OpenAMF
                                  > 3. WebORB
                                  > 4. Red5
                                  >
                                  > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
                                  either of
                                  > these solutions?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  >
                                  > Bruce
                                  >





                                • Jens Halm
                                  ... Btw: if you want AMF3 support you can rule out OpenAMF and WebORB which only support AMF0. Furthermore, since early November there is a new option:
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 16, 2007
                                    > Hello,
                                    > I am just starting to use graniteDS and starting to likie it. My -ONLY-
                                    > problem was that, I cannot make it work from within my flexbuilder
                                    > environment.

                                    > I want to be able to debug my flexbuilder application talking to my Java

                                    > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
                                    > backend.
                                    > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So far the
                                    > biggest contenders are:
                                    >
                                    > 1. Granite Data Services
                                    > 2. OpenAMF
                                    > 3. WebORB
                                    > 4. Red5

                                    Btw: if you want AMF3 support you can rule out OpenAMF and WebORB
                                    which only support AMF0.

                                    Furthermore, since early November there is a new option: Cinnamon.
                                    http://www.spicefactory.org/cinnamon/.

                                    It's a bit different than Granite since it does not use the
                                    RemoteObject API (so Cinnamon can also be used in pure AS3 projects
                                    without Flex). Cinnamon has full AMF3 support, optional integration
                                    with Spring configuration and a lot of flexibility for mapping AS3
                                    classes to Java classes.


                                    Jens Halm
                                    Spicefactory
                                  • Jeffry Houser
                                    ... I m pretty sure that the update for WebORB for Java (Due out next week I understand) will support AMF3. However, such updates are not yet reflected on the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 16, 2007
                                      Jens Halm wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Hello,
                                      > > I am just starting to use graniteDS and starting to likie it. My -ONLY-
                                      > > problem was that, I cannot make it work from within my flexbuilder
                                      > > environment.
                                      >
                                      > > I want to be able to debug my flexbuilder application talking to my Java
                                      >
                                      > > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my Java
                                      > > backend.
                                      > > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So far the
                                      > > biggest contenders are:
                                      > >
                                      > > 1. Granite Data Services
                                      > > 2. OpenAMF
                                      > > 3. WebORB
                                      > > 4. Red5
                                      >
                                      > Btw: if you want AMF3 support you can rule out OpenAMF and WebORB
                                      > which only support AMF0.

                                      I'm pretty sure that the update for WebORB for Java (Due out next week
                                      I understand) will support AMF3. However, such updates are not yet
                                      reflected on the WebORB web site, yet.

                                      http://www.themidnightcoders.com/licensing/



                                      --
                                      Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author,
                                      Recording Engineer
                                      AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
                                      --
                                      My Company: <http://www.dot-com-it.com>
                                      My Podcast: <http://www.theflexshow.com>
                                      My Blog: <http://www.jeffryhouser.com>
                                    • Douglas McCarroll
                                      I d like to repeat Steven s question. I m really curious about this. How many simultaneous connections can LCDS handle on one CPU? I realize that this will
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 26, 2007
                                        I'd like to repeat Steven's question. I'm really curious about this.
                                        How many simultaneous connections can LCDS handle on one CPU? I
                                        realize that this will vary a great deal, depending on the application
                                        and the CPU, but it would be great to get a ballpark idea.

                                        Anatole - you suggested, "I would try to see if you can scale
                                        application in any other way - 4 core single CPU and removal all
                                        business functionality to different servers". Have you done this or
                                        something similar on some of your projects? If so, how many
                                        simultaneous users will these apps support?

                                        And does anyone else have any experience with this?

                                        This is obviously an important question. Going beyond one CPU takes us
                                        from "free" to "lots of money". What will "free" handle? I've been
                                        curious about this for quite a while and have yet to run across any
                                        information on the subject.

                                        Thanks in advance for any input!

                                        Douglas McCarroll

                                        On Nov 15, 2007 3:28 PM, Anatole Tartakovsky
                                        <anatole.tartakovsky@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > That part is not AMF specific - and Apache or Tomcat will have no issues of
                                        > doing it - that is purely bandwidth issue.
                                        >
                                        > As far as AMF/RTMP streaming main issue is robustness. It is very easy to
                                        > get any of the products to run on the reliable network. We do use OpenAMF
                                        > and proprietary performance extensions on low cost/ non-critical projects.
                                        > For high-end applications we extend LCDS stack to fix underlying TCP/IP
                                        > problems( financial clients, real-time messaging). We do not advertise low
                                        > end product as it potentially might have reliability problems. Indeed, in
                                        > order to provide even basic recoverability and batching on the top of
                                        > openAmf we had to write tons of code. Only with significant investment and
                                        > "know how" you can get comparable performance and reliability
                                        >
                                        > Unless Adobe releases both ends of the protocol in the open source you would
                                        > have inherient reliability issues. While we acquired significan "know how"
                                        > in the last 2 years, using native AMF and RTMP classes is a risky business
                                        > as Adobe constantly changes framework and pieces of protocol. The main
                                        > effort of the testing should be around protocol performance and reliability
                                        > ( like pulling the network wire).and it can be a while till AMF/RTMP will
                                        > become standard - most likely only after release of the client/server code
                                        > in open source.
                                        >
                                        > Sincerely,
                                        > Anatole Tartakovsky
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 11/15/07, Steve Hueners <steve@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Is there anyway to judge what level of user connections a given server can
                                        > handle without requiring specialized loadsharing strategies? In a non-audio
                                        > or video environment what's it take to stream an AS3 based swfs to 3-5 dozen
                                        > connections?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > On 10/16/07, Anatole Tartakovsky < anatole.tartakovsky@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I would try to see if you can scale application in any other way - 4
                                        > core single CPU and removal all business functionality to different servers
                                        > is always an option. You might get even better scalablity by going RTMP
                                        > route or provide pseudo-connectivity wrapper using non-blocking IO via
                                        > client - proxy - LCDS - Messaging - LCDS - proxy -client pish.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Regards,
                                        > > > Anatole
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On 10/16/07, Bruce Hopkins <bhopkins@... > wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Yeah, I'm using HTTPService right now with E4X results. The for large
                                        > data results, however, XML is not desirable.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I'd prefer to use some framework that uses AMF3 in order to get more
                                        > compact results.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Bruce
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > On 10/16/07, Jeff Schuenke <jschuenke@... > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > You can also just use HTTPService to do direct HTTP requests. I am
                                        > > > > > using this for communications with a JAVA backend.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hopkins" <bhopkins@...>
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Hi all,
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > All I want to do is have my Flex client to communicate with my
                                        > Java
                                        > > > > > backend.
                                        > > > > > > Due to licensing restrictions, LCDS won't be an option for us. So
                                        > > > > > far the
                                        > > > > > > biggest contenders are:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > 1. Granite Data Services
                                        > > > > > > 2. OpenAMF
                                        > > > > > > 3. WebORB
                                        > > > > > > 4. Red5
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Does anyone have any strong opinions, suggestions, or biases on
                                        > > > > > either of
                                        > > > > > > these solutions?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Thanks,
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Bruce
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Tom Chiverton
                                        ... My guess is that it works out cheaper to buy a faster single CPU than to upgrade the LCDS license. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to administratively
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 27, 2007
                                          On Monday 26 Nov 2007, Douglas McCarroll wrote:
                                          > This is obviously an important question. Going beyond one CPU takes us
                                          > from "free" to "lots of money". What will "free" handle? I've been

                                          My guess is that it works out cheaper to buy a faster single CPU than to
                                          upgrade the LCDS license.

                                          --
                                          Tom Chiverton
                                          Helping to administratively industrialize prospective networks
                                          on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com

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                                        • Aaron Miller
                                          I have a question related to this topic as well. What has peoples experience been with open source solutions like AMFPHP for remoting, or Python for persistent
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 27, 2007
                                            I have a question related to this topic as well. What has peoples experience been with open source solutions like AMFPHP for remoting, or Python for persistent socket connections? These have always been my methods of choice, and have done me no harm as of yet, but I am working on a project that will have to sustain a failry large load. Should I look into a proprietary solution, or just beef up the servers? Will either of those even been necessary?

                                            Thanks!
                                            ...aaron

                                            On 11/27/07, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@...> wrote:
                                            On Monday 26 Nov 2007, Douglas McCarroll wrote:
                                            > This is obviously an important question. Going beyond one CPU takes us
                                            > from "free" to "lots of money". What will "free" handle? I've been

                                            My guess is that it works out cheaper to buy a faster single CPU than to
                                            upgrade the LCDS license.

                                            --
                                            Tom Chiverton
                                            Helping to administratively industrialize prospective networks
                                            on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com

                                            ****************************************************

                                            This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.

                                            Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office.  Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP.  Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority.

                                            CONFIDENTIALITY

                                            This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.  If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500.

                                            For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.


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                                            Chief Technology Officer
                                            Splash Labs, LLC.
                                            amiller@...  |  206-328-5485
                                            http://www.splashlabs.com
                                          • Douglas McCarroll
                                            Well, yes, but this approach will only take us so far... even with Moore s law in action. Does anyone have a significant app running on LCDS Express? How many
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 27, 2007
                                              Well, yes, but this approach will only take us so far... even with Moore's law in action.
                                               
                                              Does anyone have a significant app running on LCDS Express? How many simultaneous users can it support? With what CPU?
                                               
                                              Douglas

                                              On Nov 27, 2007 9:00 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.chiverton@...> wrote:
                                              On Monday 26 Nov 2007, Douglas McCarroll wrote:
                                              > This is obviously an important question. Going beyond one CPU takes us
                                              > from "free" to "lots of money". What will "free" handle? I've been

                                              My guess is that it works out cheaper to buy a faster single CPU than to
                                              upgrade the LCDS license.

                                              --
                                              Tom Chiverton
                                              Helping to administratively industrialize prospective networks
                                              on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
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