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Re: Curious about this boat

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  • Bill
    I may be the only one who has sailed the Flapdoodle and it was not kid-tested . There was a fellow that was to have his sailing last April, but I have not
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2008
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      I may be the only one who has sailed the Flapdoodle and it was not
      "kid-tested". There was a fellow that was to have his sailing last
      April, but I have not heard from him.

      All I can say is the dinghy was well behaved in highly variable wind
      conditions. Actually, I had no idea wind could shift 180 degrees and
      back so rapidly, but recovery from it was easy.

      I believe there are some in the group that have kids using the boat
      without sail. Perhaps we will hear more when spring comes.

      Bill


      --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "dragonbanewwwcom"
      <rvmarkus@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi all,
      >
      > I am planning on building a sailing dinghy with my kids this summer.
      > They are 11 and 9. I am curious as to whether or not this would be a
      > good boat to start with. I/we have never tried building a boat
      > before, but the idea of a folding sailing boat is very appealing. Can
      > anyone provide me with rough answers to the following so I can have a
      > better idea before I buy?
      >
      > 1. What is the overall cost of building?
      > 2. How difficult is the building process?
      > 3. Will "little ones" be able to actively participate in the building?
      > 4. How does it handle for someone learning to sail?
      >
      > I should point out that I intend to use it in lakes, not the ocean.
      >
      > Thanks for any information!
      >
      > Russell Markus
      >
    • amstraub2
      Good for you Russell! Building a boat is an excellent father/son (or in my case, grandfather/grandson) project. A couple of years ago I built Gavin Atkin s
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 4, 2008
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        Good for you Russell! Building a boat is an excellent father/son (or
        in my case, grandfather/grandson) project. A couple of years ago I
        built Gavin Atkin's "Flying Mouse" (plans available from Duckworks
        Magazine) with two of my grandsons. They were about the ages that
        your boys are now. I have also built a couple El Toros (comparable in
        size to the Flapdoodle) and have sailed them for many years. This
        size boat is very suitable for learning to sail. That is why Yacht
        clubs have used El Toros or Optimist Prams in their beginning sailing
        programs. I am currently building a Flapdoodle and expect its sailing
        performance to be comparable to the El Toro since the proportions are
        very similar. You can choose to make a smaller sail to begin with to
        reduce the risk of a capsize.

        I think that there are a few things to consider in selecting a boat
        project. Ask your self if the primary reason you want to build a boat
        is 1)to have a boat to sail, or 2)for the adventure of building the
        boat with the added bonus of having it to sail. If your answer
        is "1)" then you might want to consider picking a simpler first
        project. The attention span of even the most focused child may reach
        its limit if there are too many repetitive details to deal with
        (e.g., the chine stitching process).

        I don't mean to cast any negative aspersions on the Flapdoodle. I
        think that it is a very novel and imaginative design. That is why I
        am building one, but then I am hopelessly hooked on boat building.
        The FD construction info has convinced me that there are viable
        cheaper alternative materials , where in the past I thought that any
        wooden boat needed to be built with epoxy and BS1088 Plywood. I can
        see where these same materials could be used to construct a Flying
        Mouse, El Toro, Davis DH4, and any number of non-folding small boats
        for a very low cost. By the way I don't expect to have much over $200
        in my Flapdoodle by the time I am finished.

        Anoher consideration in selecting a boat suitable for learning to
        sail is the ease of recovery from a capsize. Since you cannot
        guarantee that you will never capsize, it is important to be prepared
        (please see my earlier post #599 on this subject). In order to be
        self-rescuing a means of reboarding after a capsize, as well as
        sufficient flotation to allow reboarding and bailing is important. In
        the interests of safety this should not be ignored. The non-folding
        boats can be built with large enclosed volumes to allow them to
        recover from a capsize more easily. However, air bags are a viable
        alternative if the Flapdoodle is your choice. I believe that pool
        noodles will keep you and the boat from sinking but will not provide
        the flotation necessary to self-rescue.

        Good luck with your boat building project, whatever it turns out to
        be.

        Al


        --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "dragonbanewwwcom"
        <rvmarkus@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > I am planning on building a sailing dinghy with my kids this
        summer.
        > They are 11 and 9. I am curious as to whether or not this would be
        > good boat to start with. I/we have never tried building a boat
        > before, but the idea of a folding sailing boat is very appealing.
        Can
        > anyone provide me with rough answers to the following so I can have
        a
        > better idea before I buy?
        >
        > 1. What is the overall cost of building?
        > 2. How difficult is the building process?
        > 3. Will "little ones" be able to actively participate in the
        building?
        > 4. How does it handle for someone learning to sail?
        >
        > I should point out that I intend to use it in lakes, not the ocean.
        >
        > Thanks for any information!
        >
        > Russell Markus
        >
      • dragonbanewwwcom
        Al, Thanks for the reply, information, and advice! The main purpose of building the boat is the building process. I was looking for a project that my kids
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 5, 2008
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          Al,

          Thanks for the reply, information, and advice! The main purpose of
          building the boat is the building process. I was looking for a
          project that my kids would remember for the rest of their lives. It
          seemed that building and sailing a boat you made was the best choice.
          A homemade plane seemed foolish :)

          I would be happy with a boat we build and take out on the water, even
          if we just row. I would prefer to learn to sail as I haven't done that
          since I was a scout way back when. I like the idea of the flapdoodle,
          since folding the boat seriously reduces the storage, reduces
          transportation, and therefore increases the chances of using the boat.

          Your thoughts on self rescue are really appreciated. It got me
          thinking. Do you think that using foam filled bags under the back
          seat and front deck would be sufficient? I am going to look into the
          air bags you referred to as well.

          I also have a question about the build itself. I am planning on
          stitching the boat. How much play along the length of the seam does
          this create? I know that it has to be more than the metal hinges...

          Thanks again. I will post pictures once we begin.

          Russell

          --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "amstraub2" <amstraub2@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Good for you Russell! Building a boat is an excellent father/son (or
          > in my case, grandfather/grandson) project. A couple of years ago I
          > built Gavin Atkin's "Flying Mouse" (plans available from Duckworks
          > Magazine) with two of my grandsons. They were about the ages that
          > your boys are now. I have also built a couple El Toros (comparable in
          > size to the Flapdoodle) and have sailed them for many years. This
          > size boat is very suitable for learning to sail. That is why Yacht
          > clubs have used El Toros or Optimist Prams in their beginning sailing
          > programs. I am currently building a Flapdoodle and expect its sailing
          > performance to be comparable to the El Toro since the proportions are
          > very similar. You can choose to make a smaller sail to begin with to
          > reduce the risk of a capsize.
          >
          > I think that there are a few things to consider in selecting a boat
          > project. Ask your self if the primary reason you want to build a boat
          > is 1)to have a boat to sail, or 2)for the adventure of building the
          > boat with the added bonus of having it to sail. If your answer
          > is "1)" then you might want to consider picking a simpler first
          > project. The attention span of even the most focused child may reach
          > its limit if there are too many repetitive details to deal with
          > (e.g., the chine stitching process).
          >
          > I don't mean to cast any negative aspersions on the Flapdoodle. I
          > think that it is a very novel and imaginative design. That is why I
          > am building one, but then I am hopelessly hooked on boat building.
          > The FD construction info has convinced me that there are viable
          > cheaper alternative materials , where in the past I thought that any
          > wooden boat needed to be built with epoxy and BS1088 Plywood. I can
          > see where these same materials could be used to construct a Flying
          > Mouse, El Toro, Davis DH4, and any number of non-folding small boats
          > for a very low cost. By the way I don't expect to have much over $200
          > in my Flapdoodle by the time I am finished.
          >
          > Anoher consideration in selecting a boat suitable for learning to
          > sail is the ease of recovery from a capsize. Since you cannot
          > guarantee that you will never capsize, it is important to be prepared
          > (please see my earlier post #599 on this subject). In order to be
          > self-rescuing a means of reboarding after a capsize, as well as
          > sufficient flotation to allow reboarding and bailing is important. In
          > the interests of safety this should not be ignored. The non-folding
          > boats can be built with large enclosed volumes to allow them to
          > recover from a capsize more easily. However, air bags are a viable
          > alternative if the Flapdoodle is your choice. I believe that pool
          > noodles will keep you and the boat from sinking but will not provide
          > the flotation necessary to self-rescue.
          >
          > Good luck with your boat building project, whatever it turns out to
          > be.
          >
          > Al
          >
          >
          > --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "dragonbanewwwcom"
          > <rvmarkus@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi all,
          > >
          > > I am planning on building a sailing dinghy with my kids this
          > summer.
          > > They are 11 and 9. I am curious as to whether or not this would be
          > > good boat to start with. I/we have never tried building a boat
          > > before, but the idea of a folding sailing boat is very appealing.
          > Can
          > > anyone provide me with rough answers to the following so I can have
          > a
          > > better idea before I buy?
          > >
          > > 1. What is the overall cost of building?
          > > 2. How difficult is the building process?
          > > 3. Will "little ones" be able to actively participate in the
          > building?
          > > 4. How does it handle for someone learning to sail?
          > >
          > > I should point out that I intend to use it in lakes, not the ocean.
          > >
          > > Thanks for any information!
          > >
          > > Russell Markus
          > >
          >
        • amstraub2
          Russel, Youv e got the right mindset to build the Flapdoodle and you will find the process very interesting. Here is a URL showing pictures of various El Toro
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 6, 2008
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            Russel,

            Youv'e got the right mindset to build the Flapdoodle and you will
            find the process very interesting.

            Here is a URL showing pictures of various El Toro flotation schemes.
            At the bottom you will see two pictures showing the use of the air
            bags to which I referred. They show two bags located low in the boat,
            up front on each side. I also have a third bag across the back. When
            my boat is righted after a capsize there is only about 6 inches of
            water above the keel at the deepest point. Doesn't sound like much
            until you factor in rolling waves while trying to reboard.

            http://www.eltoroyra.org/photos/ToroTanks/ToroTanks.htm

            Here is a URL showing a source for the bags and the strap mounting
            kits. The bags can be partially deflated and easily removed from the
            straps (which can be left in place)for transport. When they are
            reinstalled it takes 3 or 4 good "puffs" on the inflation straw to
            expand them in place under the straps. You will note that the bags
            are not inexpensive but I regard them as cheap insurance. You could
            probably create a similar flotation scheme using multiple pool
            noodles cut in half and bundled together. This would be a lot cheaper
            but less space efficient/convenient. Whatever scheme you use should
            be tested in shallow water to see how much water the boat takes on.
            If you build a dagger board trunk instead of a lee board the water
            level in the boat, after righting, needs to be below the top of the
            trunk with the crew in the boat. Otherwise bailing may be difficult.

            http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d93000/e91277.asp

            I have completed the stitching of my panels using two passes of 20#
            Flyline Backing. I chose that because I was concerned about the
            possible susceptibility of monofiliment line to breakage due to nicks
            from sand or other sharp objects. The flyline backing does not
            stretch like monofiliment line so I think that I have a little
            more "play" in my joints but once the boat is opened the bending of
            the plywood tends to take out the play. I suggest that you experiment
            with some sample joints to determine what you are most comfortable
            with. I believe we are exploring "new ground" with this design and
            that's one of the things that makes it interesting to me. I also
            suggest that you evaluate the whole finishing scheme (i.e., Dacron
            cloth, glues, varnish, paint, etc.) via test samples to be sure that
            you are comfortable with everything. I made peel test samples (data
            was posted in the "files" section) and have been running a water soak
            test for almost three months now with very favorable results. Your
            boys can learn a little about engineering as part of the whole
            process.

            Regards,

            Al


            --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "dragonbanewwwcom"
            <rvmarkus@...> wrote:
            >
            > Al,
            >
            > Thanks for the reply, information, and advice! The main purpose of
            > building the boat is the building process. I was looking for a
            > project that my kids would remember for the rest of their lives. It
            > seemed that building and sailing a boat you made was the best
            choice.
            > A homemade plane seemed foolish :)
            >
            > I would be happy with a boat we build and take out on the water,
            even
            > if we just row. I would prefer to learn to sail as I haven't done
            that
            > since I was a scout way back when. I like the idea of the
            flapdoodle,
            > since folding the boat seriously reduces the storage, reduces
            > transportation, and therefore increases the chances of using the
            boat.
            >
            > Your thoughts on self rescue are really appreciated. It got me
            > thinking. Do you think that using foam filled bags under the back
            > seat and front deck would be sufficient? I am going to look into
            the
            > air bags you referred to as well.
            >
            > I also have a question about the build itself. I am planning on
            > stitching the boat. How much play along the length of the seam does
            > this create? I know that it has to be more than the metal hinges...
            >
            > Thanks again. I will post pictures once we begin.
            >
            > Russell
            >
            > --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "amstraub2" <amstraub2@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Good for you Russell! Building a boat is an excellent father/son
            (or
            > > in my case, grandfather/grandson) project. A couple of years ago
            I
            > > built Gavin Atkin's "Flying Mouse" (plans available from
            Duckworks
            > > Magazine) with two of my grandsons. They were about the ages that
            > > your boys are now. I have also built a couple El Toros
            (comparable in
            > > size to the Flapdoodle) and have sailed them for many years. This
            > > size boat is very suitable for learning to sail. That is why
            Yacht
            > > clubs have used El Toros or Optimist Prams in their beginning
            sailing
            > > programs. I am currently building a Flapdoodle and expect its
            sailing
            > > performance to be comparable to the El Toro since the proportions
            are
            > > very similar. You can choose to make a smaller sail to begin with
            to
            > > reduce the risk of a capsize.
            > >
            > > I think that there are a few things to consider in selecting a
            boat
            > > project. Ask your self if the primary reason you want to build a
            boat
            > > is 1)to have a boat to sail, or 2)for the adventure of building
            the
            > > boat with the added bonus of having it to sail. If your answer
            > > is "1)" then you might want to consider picking a simpler first
            > > project. The attention span of even the most focused child may
            reach
            > > its limit if there are too many repetitive details to deal with
            > > (e.g., the chine stitching process).
            > >
            > > I don't mean to cast any negative aspersions on the Flapdoodle. I
            > > think that it is a very novel and imaginative design. That is why
            I
            > > am building one, but then I am hopelessly hooked on boat
            building.
            > > The FD construction info has convinced me that there are viable
            > > cheaper alternative materials , where in the past I thought that
            any
            > > wooden boat needed to be built with epoxy and BS1088 Plywood. I
            can
            > > see where these same materials could be used to construct a
            Flying
            > > Mouse, El Toro, Davis DH4, and any number of non-folding small
            boats
            > > for a very low cost. By the way I don't expect to have much over
            $200
            > > in my Flapdoodle by the time I am finished.
            > >
            > > Anoher consideration in selecting a boat suitable for learning to
            > > sail is the ease of recovery from a capsize. Since you cannot
            > > guarantee that you will never capsize, it is important to be
            prepared
            > > (please see my earlier post #599 on this subject). In order to be
            > > self-rescuing a means of reboarding after a capsize, as well as
            > > sufficient flotation to allow reboarding and bailing is
            important. In
            > > the interests of safety this should not be ignored. The non-
            folding
            > > boats can be built with large enclosed volumes to allow them to
            > > recover from a capsize more easily. However, air bags are a
            viable
            > > alternative if the Flapdoodle is your choice. I believe that pool
            > > noodles will keep you and the boat from sinking but will not
            provide
            > > the flotation necessary to self-rescue.
            > >
            > > Good luck with your boat building project, whatever it turns out
            to
            > > be.
            > >
            > > Al
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "dragonbanewwwcom"
            > > <rvmarkus@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi all,
            > > >
            > > > I am planning on building a sailing dinghy with my kids this
            > > summer.
            > > > They are 11 and 9. I am curious as to whether or not this
            would be
            > > > good boat to start with. I/we have never tried building a boat
            > > > before, but the idea of a folding sailing boat is very
            appealing.
            > > Can
            > > > anyone provide me with rough answers to the following so I can
            have
            > > a
            > > > better idea before I buy?
            > > >
            > > > 1. What is the overall cost of building?
            > > > 2. How difficult is the building process?
            > > > 3. Will "little ones" be able to actively participate in the
            > > building?
            > > > 4. How does it handle for someone learning to sail?
            > > >
            > > > I should point out that I intend to use it in lakes, not the
            ocean.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for any information!
            > > >
            > > > Russell Markus
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Bruce C. Dillahunty
            I built an Origami Dingy (plans from www.woodenwidget.com) with my son. It took a while due to some health and family issues, but he had a blast. He really got
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 6, 2008
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              I built an Origami Dingy (plans from www.woodenwidget.com) with my son.
              It took a while due to some health and family issues, but he had a
              blast. He really got into it, even though a lot of the time he was watching.

              Here's the blog: http://www.craftacraft.com/blog/bdillahu

              I made sure to involve him as I could. Reading instructions, "checking"
              measurements, etc.

              (sorry to mention a different boat on the list)... I didn't find the
              Flapdoodle before I did the Origami... I think they both have some
              advantages, and I want to build a Flapdoodle down the road, but right
              now me (and my son, of course) have bitten off the MUCH, MUCH bigger 28'
              Mark V. That will take a while (about 9 months in now).
              http://www.craftacraft.com/blog/v28build


              Bruce

              dragonbanewwwcom wrote:
              > Al,
              >
              > Thanks for the reply, information, and advice! The main purpose of
              > building the boat is the building process. I was looking for a
              > project that my kids would remember for the rest of their lives. It
              > seemed that building and sailing a boat you made was the best choice.
              > A homemade plane seemed foolish :)
              >
              > I would be happy with a boat we build and take out on the water, even
              > if we just row. I would prefer to learn to sail as I haven't done that
              > since I was a scout way back when. I like the idea of the flapdoodle,
              > since folding the boat seriously reduces the storage, reduces
              > transportation, and therefore increases the chances of using the boat.
              >
              > Your thoughts on self rescue are really appreciated. It got me
              > thinking. Do you think that using foam filled bags under the back
              > seat and front deck would be sufficient? I am going to look into the
              > air bags you referred to as well.
              >
              > I also have a question about the build itself. I am planning on
              > stitching the boat. How much play along the length of the seam does
              > this create? I know that it has to be more than the metal hinges...
              >
              > Thanks again. I will post pictures once we begin.
              >
              > Russell
              >
              > --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "amstraub2" <amstraub2@...>
              > wrote:
              >> Good for you Russell! Building a boat is an excellent father/son (or
              >> in my case, grandfather/grandson) project. A couple of years ago I
              >> built Gavin Atkin's "Flying Mouse" (plans available from Duckworks
              >> Magazine) with two of my grandsons. They were about the ages that
              >> your boys are now. I have also built a couple El Toros (comparable in
              >> size to the Flapdoodle) and have sailed them for many years. This
              >> size boat is very suitable for learning to sail. That is why Yacht
              >> clubs have used El Toros or Optimist Prams in their beginning sailing
              >> programs. I am currently building a Flapdoodle and expect its sailing
              >> performance to be comparable to the El Toro since the proportions are
              >> very similar. You can choose to make a smaller sail to begin with to
              >> reduce the risk of a capsize.
              >>
              >> I think that there are a few things to consider in selecting a boat
              >> project. Ask your self if the primary reason you want to build a boat
              >> is 1)to have a boat to sail, or 2)for the adventure of building the
              >> boat with the added bonus of having it to sail. If your answer
              >> is "1)" then you might want to consider picking a simpler first
              >> project. The attention span of even the most focused child may reach
              >> its limit if there are too many repetitive details to deal with
              >> (e.g., the chine stitching process).
              >>
              >> I don't mean to cast any negative aspersions on the Flapdoodle. I
              >> think that it is a very novel and imaginative design. That is why I
              >> am building one, but then I am hopelessly hooked on boat building.
              >> The FD construction info has convinced me that there are viable
              >> cheaper alternative materials , where in the past I thought that any
              >> wooden boat needed to be built with epoxy and BS1088 Plywood. I can
              >> see where these same materials could be used to construct a Flying
              >> Mouse, El Toro, Davis DH4, and any number of non-folding small boats
              >> for a very low cost. By the way I don't expect to have much over $200
              >> in my Flapdoodle by the time I am finished.
              >>
              >> Anoher consideration in selecting a boat suitable for learning to
              >> sail is the ease of recovery from a capsize. Since you cannot
              >> guarantee that you will never capsize, it is important to be prepared
              >> (please see my earlier post #599 on this subject). In order to be
              >> self-rescuing a means of reboarding after a capsize, as well as
              >> sufficient flotation to allow reboarding and bailing is important. In
              >> the interests of safety this should not be ignored. The non-folding
              >> boats can be built with large enclosed volumes to allow them to
              >> recover from a capsize more easily. However, air bags are a viable
              >> alternative if the Flapdoodle is your choice. I believe that pool
              >> noodles will keep you and the boat from sinking but will not provide
              >> the flotation necessary to self-rescue.
              >>
              >> Good luck with your boat building project, whatever it turns out to
              >> be.
              >>
              >> Al
              >>
              >>
              >> --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "dragonbanewwwcom"
              >> <rvmarkus@> wrote:
              >>> Hi all,
              >>>
              >>> I am planning on building a sailing dinghy with my kids this
              >> summer.
              >>> They are 11 and 9. I am curious as to whether or not this would be
              >>> good boat to start with. I/we have never tried building a boat
              >>> before, but the idea of a folding sailing boat is very appealing.
              >> Can
              >>> anyone provide me with rough answers to the following so I can have
              >> a
              >>> better idea before I buy?
              >>>
              >>> 1. What is the overall cost of building?
              >>> 2. How difficult is the building process?
              >>> 3. Will "little ones" be able to actively participate in the
              >> building?
              >>> 4. How does it handle for someone learning to sail?
              >>>
              >>> I should point out that I intend to use it in lakes, not the ocean.
              >>>
              >>> Thanks for any information!
              >>>
              >>> Russell Markus
              >>>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Bruce Dillahunty
              bdillahu@...
              http://www.craftacraft.com
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