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RE: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug

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  • Stephen AIT
    Hi Bill, Thanks for that information. The hinge marking and cutting is underway. I will be posting photos to show the result. They should be ready later this
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 1, 2007
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      Hi Bill,
       
      Thanks for that information.
       
      The hinge marking and cutting is underway. I will be posting photos to show the result. They should be ready later this week or early next week.
       
      I am planning to use the dinghy for sailing and do not require to remove the dagger board box. Do you have any recommendations for fixing it to the keel? Also, could you please confirm that the sides of the dagger board box are made of 5mm ply?
       
      Many thanks,
       
      Stephen DuBois
       
       -----Original Message-----
      From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Folding Boat
      Sent: 23 March 2007 09:35
      To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug


      hinge glue.gif
      It is in the chapter "fabric ends"
      But I can see where it would be ambiguous.
      Guess I just assumed that if you use PVC glue it would
      be on the PVC side.

      Will correct that as time permits.

      Bill

      Folding sail dinghy http://www.flapdood ledinghy. com/

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    • Bill
      Sounds like it is coming along nicely. I used 5/16 zinc carriage bolts because that is what was available, but 3/16 to 1/4 would be fine. The smaller the
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 1, 2007
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        Sounds like it is coming along nicely.

        I used 5/16 zinc carriage bolts because that is what was available,
        but 3/16" to 1/4" would be fine. The smaller the bolts, the stronger
        the keel. The bolts are mainly to hold the cork gasket to the keel, so
        they do not have to be terribly strong. The bracket attached to the
        seat takes the side forces.

        A thicker cork gasket would give a little more flex when the boat is
        closed.

        5mm, 5.2 or 1/4" for the DB box sides would all work. Just allow for
        the difference (if any) when drilling the holes that attach it to the
        keel.

        Bill

        --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen AIT" <stephen@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Bill,
        >
        > Thanks for that information.
        >
        > The hinge marking and cutting is underway. I will be posting photos
        to show
        > the result. They should be ready later this week or early next week.
        >
        > I am planning to use the dinghy for sailing and do not require to
        remove the
        > dagger board box. Do you have any recommendations for fixing it to
        the keel?
        > Also, could you please confirm that the sides of the dagger board
        box are
        > made of 5mm ply?
      • Stephen AIT
        Hi Bill, Well slow progress (because of other commitments) but, I hope, sure !! Sorry I wasn t precise enough with my question about the dagger board box. I
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 1, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Bill,
           
          Well slow progress (because of other commitments) but, I hope, sure !!
           
          Sorry I wasn't precise enough with my question about the dagger board box. I should have emphasized the 'permanent' aspect i.e. would it be a good idea to screw and glue the dagger board box to the keel and if so what fastenings would be advised? Is the keel flexure going to affect a glued union? If not, I would think that a thicker collar round the base of the box with screws right through the keel assembly, well sealed, would do the job. Or I could use the M6 machine screws and dome nuts which I have already obtained but still glue the box to the keel. I realise that there is no opportunity for you to test this type of solution. I can build and test it myself but if you have time, I would appreciate your advice here.
           
          Regards,
           
          Stephen DuBois
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill
          Sent: 01 April 2007 23:06
          To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug

          Sounds like it is coming along nicely.

          I used 5/16 zinc carriage bolts because that is what was available,
          but 3/16" to 1/4" would be fine. The smaller the bolts, the stronger
          the keel. The bolts are mainly to hold the cork gasket to the keel, so
          they do not have to be terribly strong. The bracket attached to the
          seat takes the side forces.

          A thicker cork gasket would give a little more flex when the boat is
          closed.

          5mm, 5.2 or 1/4" for the DB box sides would all work. Just allow for
          the difference (if any) when drilling the holes that attach it to the
          keel.

          Bill

          --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com, "Stephen AIT" <stephen@... >
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Bill,
          >
          > Thanks for that information.
          >
          > The hinge marking and cutting is underway. I will be posting photos
          to show
          > the result. They should be ready later this week or early next week.
          >
          > I am planning to use the dinghy for sailing and do not require to
          remove the
          > dagger board box. Do you have any recommendations for fixing it to
          the keel?
          > Also, could you please confirm that the sides of the dagger board
          box are
          > made of 5mm ply?

        • Folding Boat
          Do NOT glue the box to the keel. It needs the cork gasket as sort a cushion for the flexing between open and closed positions. When closed, the keel is the
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Do NOT glue the box to the keel. It needs the cork
            gasket as sort a cushion for the flexing between open
            and closed positions.

            When closed, the keel is the exact same curve as the
            edge of the bottom panel. (darn near straight)

            When open, the curve of the keel is exaggerated and
            gives the curved shape of a dinghy. Pretty much the
            lower curve of the side panels.

            In the plans if tells you to curve the bottom of the
            box. It will be close to the open curve. If you were
            to make it flat, it would stress the keel at the front
            and rear edges, even it it were not glued. If it were
            glued, there would most likely be a crack in the keel,
            because it poses a knife edge across it. Would be like
            clamping the keel the the table edge and forcing it
            downward.

            If it were glued the curved portion of the box would
            stress the keel at the front and rear. The cork takes
            the strain away.

            I cracked a keel (the daggerbox got stepped on while
            in the water), but it was poor wood. In fact, I took
            the ruined piece and broke it easily with my hand.

            With a stitch and glue conventional dinghy, gluing
            would be preferred, but folders require different
            treatment.

            Hope I did not get too windy. Do not hesitate if you
            have further questions.

            M6 should be fine.

            Bill


            --- Stephen AIT <stephen@...> wrote:

            > Hi Bill,
            >
            > Well slow progress (because of other commitments)
            > but, I hope, sure !!
            >
            > Sorry I wasn't precise enough with my question about
            > the dagger board box. I
            > should have emphasized the 'permanent' aspect i.e.
            > would it be a good idea
            > to screw and glue the dagger board box to the keel
            > and if so what fastenings
            > would be advised? Is the keel flexure going to
            > affect a glued union? If not,
            > I would think that a thicker collar round the base
            > of the box with screws
            > right through the keel assembly, well sealed, would
            > do the job. Or I could
            > use the M6 machine screws and dome nuts which I have
            > already obtained but
            > still glue the box to the keel. I realise that there
            > is no opportunity for
            > you to test this type of solution. I can build and
            > test it myself but if you
            > have time, I would appreciate your advice here.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Stephen DuBois
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
            > Of Bill
            > Sent: 01 April 2007 23:06
            > To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug
            >
            >
            > Sounds like it is coming along nicely.
            >
            > I used 5/16 zinc carriage bolts because that is
            > what was available,
            > but 3/16" to 1/4" would be fine. The smaller the
            > bolts, the stronger
            > the keel. The bolts are mainly to hold the cork
            > gasket to the keel, so
            > they do not have to be terribly strong. The
            > bracket attached to the
            > seat takes the side forces.
            >
            > A thicker cork gasket would give a little more
            > flex when the boat is
            > closed.
            >
            > 5mm, 5.2 or 1/4" for the DB box sides would all
            > work. Just allow for
            > the difference (if any) when drilling the holes
            > that attach it to the
            > keel.
            >
            > Bill
            >
            > --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen
            > AIT" <stephen@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Bill,
            > >
            > > Thanks for that information.
            > >
            > > The hinge marking and cutting is underway. I
            > will be posting photos
            > to show
            > > the result. They should be ready later this week
            > or early next week.
            > >
            > > I am planning to use the dinghy for sailing and
            > do not require to
            > remove the
            > > dagger board box. Do you have any
            > recommendations for fixing it to
            > the keel?
            > > Also, could you please confirm that the sides of
            > the dagger board
            > box are
            > > made of 5mm ply?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            Folding sail dinghy http://www.flapdoodledinghy.com/



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          • Stephen AIT
            Hi Bill, Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I don t want to diverge from the published plans but when you mentioned (in your leeboard update explanation
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
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              Hi Bill,
               
              Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I don't want to diverge from the published plans but when you mentioned (in your 'leeboard update' explanation - message 95) that the daggerboard box ought to be removable it occurred to me that, since I want to sail the boat all the time, I could fix it permanently. I now realise the reasons this is not a good idea.
               
              Conversely, I won't usually need the seat for rowing and I have read the 'Optional Centre Frame' page. However, the seat obviously has a structural function with respect to the pedestal and daggerboard so I deduce that it is required when sailing. What conditions are suited to the 'open boat' configuration?
               
              Regards,
               
              Stephen DuBois
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Folding Boat
              Sent: 02 April 2007 01:52
              To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug

              Do NOT glue the box to the keel. It needs the cork
              gasket as sort a cushion for the flexing between open
              and closed positions.

              When closed, the keel is the exact same curve as the
              edge of the bottom panel. (darn near straight)

              When open, the curve of the keel is exaggerated and
              gives the curved shape of a dinghy. Pretty much the
              lower curve of the side panels.

              In the plans if tells you to curve the bottom of the
              box. It will be close to the open curve. If you were
              to make it flat, it would stress the keel at the front
              and rear edges, even it it were not glued. If it were
              glued, there would most likely be a crack in the keel,
              because it poses a knife edge across it. Would be like
              clamping the keel the the table edge and forcing it
              downward.

              If it were glued the curved portion of the box would
              stress the keel at the front and rear. The cork takes
              the strain away.

              I cracked a keel (the daggerbox got stepped on while
              in the water), but it was poor wood. In fact, I took
              the ruined piece and broke it easily with my hand.

              With a stitch and glue conventional dinghy, gluing
              would be preferred, but folders require different
              treatment.

              Hope I did not get too windy. Do not hesitate if you
              have further questions.

              M6 should be fine.

              Bill

              --- Stephen AIT <stephen@dursys. com> wrote:

              > Hi Bill,
              >
              > Well slow progress (because of other commitments)
              > but, I hope, sure !!
              >
              > Sorry I wasn't precise enough with my question about
              > the dagger board box. I
              > should have emphasized the 'permanent' aspect i.e.
              > would it be a good idea
              > to screw and glue the dagger board box to the keel
              > and if so what fastenings
              > would be advised? Is the keel flexure going to
              > affect a glued union? If not,
              > I would think that a thicker collar round the base
              > of the box with screws
              > right through the keel assembly, well sealed, would
              > do the job. Or I could
              > use the M6 machine screws and dome nuts which I have
              > already obtained but
              > still glue the box to the keel. I realise that there
              > is no opportunity for
              > you to test this type of solution. I can build and
              > test it myself but if you
              > have time, I would appreciate your advice here.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Stephen DuBois
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com
              > [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf
              > Of Bill
              > Sent: 01 April 2007 23:06
              > To: flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com
              > Subject: [flapdoodle_ dinghy] Re: Doodlebug
              >
              >
              > Sounds like it is coming along nicely.
              >
              > I used 5/16 zinc carriage bolts because that is
              > what was available,
              > but 3/16" to 1/4" would be fine. The smaller the
              > bolts, the stronger
              > the keel. The bolts are mainly to hold the cork
              > gasket to the keel, so
              > they do not have to be terribly strong. The
              > bracket attached to the
              > seat takes the side forces.
              >
              > A thicker cork gasket would give a little more
              > flex when the boat is
              > closed.
              >
              > 5mm, 5.2 or 1/4" for the DB box sides would all
              > work. Just allow for
              > the difference (if any) when drilling the holes
              > that attach it to the
              > keel.
              >
              > Bill
              >
              > --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com, "Stephen
              > AIT" <stephen@... >
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Bill,
              > >
              > > Thanks for that information.
              > >
              > > The hinge marking and cutting is underway. I
              > will be posting photos
              > to show
              > > the result. They should be ready later this week
              > or early next week.
              > >
              > > I am planning to use the dinghy for sailing and
              > do not require to
              > remove the
              > > dagger board box. Do you have any
              > recommendations for fixing it to
              > the keel?
              > > Also, could you please confirm that the sides of
              > the dagger board
              > box are
              > > made of 5mm ply?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Folding sail dinghy http://www.flapdood ledinghy. com/

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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            • Folding Boat
              To tell you the truth, I had not considered anyone sailing with the open boat configuration. The lack of support for the daggerbox would make it prohibitive.
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                To tell you the truth, I had not considered anyone
                sailing with the open boat configuration. The lack of
                support for the daggerbox would make it prohibitive.
                In the photo:

                http://www.flapdoodledinghy.com/Gallery/center_frame_option.jpg

                It shows the daggerboard slot plugged.

                Of course one option would be to leave the daggerbox
                and slot out entirely and go for the leeboard.
                Promise, the drawing are in the works.

                The X-Doodle (figure 8 stitched hinges) needs the seat
                pedestal, then I will do the PVC fabric and mount the
                mast.

                I spoke to the first mate (she will be the
                photographer) about taking it out next week for its
                maiden voyage, and the leeboard will be tested then.

                Yes, I know. The PVC is out of sequence according to
                the plans, but I wanted to see if it would be harder,
                or easier if done last. Will pass the results on to
                you all.

                *IF* you opted to leave the daggerbox out, it could
                always be added in the future. Just cut the slot, and
                drill the holes for the bolts.

                Bill








                --- Stephen AIT <stephen@...> wrote:

                > Hi Bill,
                >
                > Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I don't want
                > to diverge from the
                > published plans but when you mentioned (in your
                > 'leeboard update'
                > explanation - message 95) that the daggerboard box
                > ought to be removable it
                > occurred to me that, since I want to sail the boat
                > all the time, I could fix
                > it permanently. I now realise the reasons this is
                > not a good idea.
                >
                > Conversely, I won't usually need the seat for rowing
                > and I have read the
                > 'Optional Centre Frame' page. However, the seat
                > obviously has a structural
                > function with respect to the pedestal and
                > daggerboard so I deduce that it is
                > required when sailing. What conditions are suited to
                > the 'open boat'
                > configuration?
                >
                > Regards,
                >


                Folding sail dinghy http://www.flapdoodledinghy.com/




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • Stephen AIT
                Hi Bill, OK. As I mentioned, I will be sailing most of the time. I think I will swap the dome nuts for wing nuts so I can tighten the box once the boat is
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Bill,
                   
                  OK. As I mentioned, I will be sailing most of the time. I think I will swap the dome nuts for wing nuts so I can tighten the box once the boat is unfolded.
                   
                  I will be making a rowing seat for this boat. If I build a second one I would look at the possibility of an extended foredeck which would have several advantages for structure and usage.
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Stephen DuBois
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Folding Boat
                  Sent: 02 April 2007 09:29
                  To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug

                  To tell you the truth, I had not considered anyone
                  sailing with the open boat configuration. The lack of
                  support for the daggerbox would make it prohibitive.
                  In the photo:

                  http://www.flapdood ledinghy. com/Gallery/ center_frame_ option.jpg

                  It shows the daggerboard slot plugged.

                  Of course one option would be to leave the daggerbox
                  and slot out entirely and go for the leeboard.
                  Promise, the drawing are in the works.

                  The X-Doodle (figure 8 stitched hinges) needs the seat
                  pedestal, then I will do the PVC fabric and mount the
                  mast.

                  I spoke to the first mate (she will be the
                  photographer) about taking it out next week for its
                  maiden voyage, and the leeboard will be tested then.

                  Yes, I know. The PVC is out of sequence according to
                  the plans, but I wanted to see if it would be harder,
                  or easier if done last. Will pass the results on to
                  you all.

                  *IF* you opted to leave the daggerbox out, it could
                  always be added in the future. Just cut the slot, and
                  drill the holes for the bolts.

                  Bill

                  --- Stephen AIT <stephen@dursys. com> wrote:

                  > Hi Bill,
                  >
                  > Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I don't want
                  > to diverge from the
                  > published plans but when you mentioned (in your
                  > 'leeboard update'
                  > explanation - message 95) that the daggerboard box
                  > ought to be removable it
                  > occurred to me that, since I want to sail the boat
                  > all the time, I could fix
                  > it permanently. I now realise the reasons this is
                  > not a good idea.
                  >
                  > Conversely, I won't usually need the seat for rowing
                  > and I have read the
                  > 'Optional Centre Frame' page. However, the seat
                  > obviously has a structural
                  > function with respect to the pedestal and
                  > daggerboard so I deduce that it is
                  > required when sailing. What conditions are suited to
                  > the 'open boat'
                  > configuration?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >

                  Folding sail dinghy http://www.flapdood ledinghy. com/

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Need Mail bonding?
                  Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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                • Bill
                  I like the wing nut idea, especially since they only have to be tightened a little. An option to an extended foredeck might be a pop-in secondary foredeck.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I like the wing nut idea, especially since they only have to be
                    tightened a little.

                    An option to an extended foredeck might be a pop-in secondary
                    foredeck. Fitting would be simplified, it would give more options, and
                    it could be used to support the top of the daggerbox in the absence of
                    the center seat.

                    On the topic of foredeck options, I made a PVC fabric "box" intended
                    to be a collapsible anchor locker for the foredeck. It is just fabric
                    glued to a square of 5mm plywood. Something similar might be
                    incorporated in the secondary foredeck for storage.

                    Bill


                    --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen AIT" <stephen@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Bill,
                    >
                    > OK. As I mentioned, I will be sailing most of the time. I think I
                    will swap
                    > the dome nuts for wing nuts so I can tighten the box once the boat is
                    > unfolded.
                    >
                    > I will be making a rowing seat for this boat. If I build a second one I
                    > would look at the possibility of an extended foredeck which would have
                    > several advantages for structure and usage.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Stephen DuBois
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Folding Boat
                    > Sent: 02 April 2007 09:29
                    > To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug
                    >
                  • Stephen AIT
                    Hi Bill, Yes, the wing nut idea is a flyer !! Slacken off before folding. I will make a padded PVC boot to cover the fitting and protect small toes. I am doing
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Bill,
                       
                      Yes, the wing nut idea is a flyer !! Slacken off before folding. I will make a padded PVC boot to cover the fitting and protect small toes.
                       
                      I am doing more work on the hinges tomorrow morning. I have cut the original 1800mm into 4 x 450mm pieces, one for each join. One of these has already been drilled on a small bench drill I purchased especially for this job (and for the future). Officially it is a 'hobby' model, bottom of the range and a snip at £58 (about 116 USD) but I think the price may have gone up. It has a 13mm chuck and has made short work of the first set of holes. For UK 'Flapdoodlers' the link is http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Pillar-Drill-5-Speed-Hobby-Model-583mm-Height-330W-230V-Sealey-SDM30?sc=9&category=537. It will also be useful for accurate countersinking and for drilling the pilot holes for the fabric clamp fasteners.
                       
                      The more I think about an addition to the fore deck, the more I like it. I think a 'snap in' option would be good. Lots of possibilities. I also like a folding option since it would be about 2 ft in width. Maybe a 'snap down' configuration could be designed locking to the dagger board box and with a slot-in reinforcement on top to act as a spray guard, slightly curved? The support for the dagger board box and a mast gate would add a lot of strength. Storage below of course. Even a 'snap in' bulkhead? I note the information about the anchor locker.
                       
                      This could take 'pocket cruising' into a new realm !!
                       
                      Support the British Navy.
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Stephen DuBois
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill
                      Sent: 02 April 2007 17:48
                      To: flapdoodle_dinghy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [flapdoodle_dinghy] Re: Doodlebug

                      I like the wing nut idea, especially since they only have to be
                      tightened a little.

                      An option to an extended foredeck might be a pop-in secondary
                      foredeck. Fitting would be simplified, it would give more options, and
                      it could be used to support the top of the daggerbox in the absence of
                      the center seat.

                      On the topic of foredeck options, I made a PVC fabric "box" intended
                      to be a collapsible anchor locker for the foredeck. It is just fabric
                      glued to a square of 5mm plywood. Something similar might be
                      incorporated in the secondary foredeck for storage.

                      Bill

                      --- In flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com, "Stephen AIT" <stephen@... >
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Bill,
                      >
                      > OK. As I mentioned, I will be sailing most of the time. I think I
                      will swap
                      > the dome nuts for wing nuts so I can tighten the box once the boat is
                      > unfolded.
                      >
                      > I will be making a rowing seat for this boat. If I build a second one I
                      > would look at the possibility of an extended foredeck which would have
                      > several advantages for structure and usage.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Stephen DuBois
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com
                      > [mailto:flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Folding Boat
                      > Sent: 02 April 2007 09:29
                      > To: flapdoodle_dinghy@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Subject: RE: [flapdoodle_ dinghy] Re: Doodlebug
                      >

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