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Ancestral Files CD's

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  • diverdoc4md
    I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure how to access them
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
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      I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to
      access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure
      how to access them since the latest version of Temple Ready does not
      show access to AF.
    • gtempleman1@comcast.net
      Ancestral File is part of the old DOS FamilySearch program and has nothing to do with Temple Ready, with the exception that the old TempleReady (DOS) was also
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
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        Ancestral File is part of the old DOS FamilySearch program and has nothing to do with Temple Ready, with the exception that the old TempleReady (DOS) was also a menu item on the FamilySearch program. Depending on how your center is set up, the FS program will access AF off of a server or the CD's.
         
        An important question is *why* the consultant wants to access the collection at the center. All of the same information is online. The main advantage of the FHC version is the potential ability to download multiple generations, but given the poor quality and unverified nature of the AF information I have really tried to discourage people from dooing that.
         
        And of course, all of the AF data is part of the new FamilySearch, so will be accesible when your temple district is switching over.
         
        Gary Templeman
         
        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: "diverdoc4md" <diverdoc4md@...>

        > I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to
        > access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure
        > how to access them since the latest version of Temple Ready does not
        > show access to AF.
        >
        >
        >
        > Home Page: http://fhctech.org/
        > Community email addresses:
        > Post message: fhctech@yahoogroups.com
        > Subscribe: fhctech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Unsubscribe: fhctech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > List owner: Rick@...
        > Shortcut URL to Yahoo! group page:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech/
        >
        > <*> Your email settings:
        > Individual Email | Traditional
        >
        > <*> To change settings online go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech/join
        > (Yahoo! ID required)
        >
        > <*> To change settings via email:
        > mailto:fhctech-digest@yahoogroups.com
        > mailto:fhctech-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > fhctech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Snow, Donald R.
        Gary, the Ancestral File in the DOS version is much more complete than the one in FamilySearch.org. The online one has no living people in it, no name only s,
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
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          Gary, the Ancestral File in the DOS version is much more complete than the one in FamilySearch.org.  The online one has no living people in it, no name only's, no temple ordinances, besides only being able to download 4 generations at a time.  If you are in the DOS version, find your AF number and type that into the online version and see what you get.  It will say, that AFN doesn't exist.  We have the old DOS version on the computers in our Hyde Park Family History Centre for those reasons.  It would be nice to have a "stand-alone" Windows version of it, but we need the old DOS version for the Scottish Vital Records database anyway, so we have them both on all of our computers.  BTW, there are over 600 microfilms of the hard copy notes and sources for data in the AF if it was sent in on hard copy, which all of it was for the first few years.  Most people aren't aware of that.  I have a set of notes with all the details on http://uvpafug.org under Class Outlines, Don's Listings, and just recently gave a talk about the AF and the PRF here at the Hyde Park FHC.  Our talks are all listed on our website http://www.hydeparkfhc.org under Events.  I've got links there to the notes we've written, too.  I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources and notes in it if they were sent in.

          Elder Snow


          At 11:43 PM 1/30/2008, gtempleman1@... wrote:

          Ancestral File is part of the old DOS FamilySearch program and has nothing to do with Temple Ready, with the exception that the old TempleReady (DOS) was also a menu item on the FamilySearch program. Depending on how your center is set up, the FS program will access AF off of a server or the CD's.
           
          An important question is *why* the consultant wants to access the collection at the center. All of the same information is online. The main advantage of the FHC version is the potential ability to download multiple generations, but given the poor quality and unverified nature of the AF information I have really tried to discourage people from dooing that.
           
          And of course, all of the AF data is part of the new FamilySearch, so will be accesible when your temple district is switching over.
           
          Gary Templeman
           
          -------------- Original message --------------
          From: "diverdoc4md" <diverdoc4md@...>

          > I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to
          > access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure
          > how to access them since the latest version of Temple Ready does not
          > show access to AF.
          >
          >
          >
          > Home Page: http://fhctech.org/
          > Community email addresses:
          > Post message: fhctech@yahoogroups.com
          > Subscribe: fhctech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Unsubscribe: fhctech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > List owner: Rick@...
          > Shortcut URL to Yahoo! group page:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://group s.yahoo.com/group/fhctech/
          >
          > <*> Your email settings:
          > Individual Email | Traditional
          >
          > <*> To change settings online go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech/join
          > (Yahoo! ID required)
          >
          > <*> To change settings via email:
          > mailto:fhctech-digest@yahoogroups.com
          > mailto:fhctech-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fhctech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >


          Elder Donald R. Snow, England London Mission
          Hyde Park Family History Centre, http://www.hydeparkfhc.org
          Retired Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; snowd@...

        • Russell Hltn
          ... Post an example and I or someone else will tell you what nFS contains. I m not sure if we can lookup by AFN or not, so some details would be nice.
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
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            On Jan 30, 2008 2:46 PM, Snow, Donald R. <snowd@...> wrote:
            > I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources
            > and notes in it if they were sent in.

            Post an example and I or someone else will tell you what nFS contains.
            I'm not sure if we can lookup by AFN or not, so some details would be
            nice.
          • Snow, Donald R.
            Which CD s, Linda? The ones mentioned on www.hydeparkfhc.org are all available from the Church Distribution Centres. If those are the ones you mean, most of
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
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              Which CD's, Linda?  The ones mentioned on www.hydeparkfhc.org are all available from the Church Distribution Centres.  If those are the ones you mean, most of those have been out for years, so the Birmingham Distribution Centre here in the UK is selling them out.  In the U.S. look on www.familysearch.org under Products.  Are those the ones you mean?

              Elder Snow


              At 02:41 AM 1/31/2008, you wrote:

              "FAMILY HISTORY PRODUCTS AVAILABLE ON CD" are these available to all members?  I am in the US and didn't know these CD's yu mention on your website were available.
              Linda
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Snow, Donald R.
              To: fhctech@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD's

              Gary, the Ancestral File in the DOS version is much more complete than the one in FamilySearch.org.  The online one has no living people in it, no name only's, no temple ordinances, besides only being able to download 4 generations at a time.  If you are in the DOS version, find your AF number and type that into the online version and see what you get.  It will say, that AFN doesn't exist.  We have the old DOS version on the computers in our Hyde Park Family History Centre for those reasons.  It would be nice to have a "stand-alone" Windows version of it, but we need the old DOS version for the Scottish Vital Records database anyway, so we have them both on all of our computers.  BTW, there are over 600 microfilms of the hard copy notes and sources for data in the AF if it was sent in on hard copy, which all of it was for the first few years.  Most people aren't aware of that.  I have a set of notes with all the details on http://uvpafug.org under Class Outlines, Don's Listings, and just recently gave a talk about the AF and the PRF here at the Hyde Park FHC.  Our talks are all listed on our website http://www.hydeparkfhc.org under Events.  I've got links there to the notes we've written, too.  I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources and notes in it if they were sent in.

              Elder Snow


              At 11:43 PM 1/30/2008, gtempleman1@... wrote:

              Ancestral File is part of the old DOS FamilySearch program and has nothing to do with Temple Ready, with the exception that the old TempleReady (DOS) was also a menu item on the FamilySearch program. Depending on how your center is set up, the FS program will access AF off of a server or the CD's.
               
              An important question is *why* the consultant wants to access the collection at the center. All of the same information is online. The main advantage of the FHC version is the potential ability to download multiple generations, but given the poor quality and unverified nature of the AF information I have really tried to discourage people from dooing that.
               
              And of course, all of the AF data is part of the new FamilySearch, so will be accesible when your temple district is switching over.
               
              Gary Templeman
               
              -------------- Original message --------------
              From: "diverdoc4md" <diverdoc4md@...>
              > I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to
              > access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure
              > how to access them since the latest version of Temple Ready does not
              > show access to AF.
              >
              >
              >
              > Home Page: http://fhctech.org/
              > Community email addresses:
              > Post message: fhctech@yahoogroups.com
              > Subscribe: fhctech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Unsubscribe: fhctech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > List owner: Rick@...
              > Shortcut URL to Yahoo! group page:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://group s.yahoo.com/group/fhctech/
              >
              > <*> Your email settings:
              > Individual Email | Traditional
              >
              > <*> To change settings online go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fhctech/join
              > (Yahoo! ID required)
              >
              > <*> To change settings via email:
              > mailto:fhctech-digest@yahoogroups.com
              > mailto:fhctech-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > fhctech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >

              Elder Donald R. Snow, England London Mission
              Hyde Park Family History Centre, http://www.hydeparkfhc.org
              Retired Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; snowd@...


              Elder Donald R. Snow, England London Mission
              Hyde Park Family History Centre, http://www.hydeparkfhc.org
              Retired Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; snowd@...

            • Iowa Ribbon/Duncan
              FAMILY HISTORY PRODUCTS AVAILABLE ON CD are these available to all members? I am in the US and didn t know these CD s yu mention on your website were
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                "FAMILY HISTORY PRODUCTS AVAILABLE ON CD" are these available to all members?  I am in the US and didn't know these CD's yu mention on your website were available.
                Linda
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:46 PM
                Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD's

                Gary, the Ancestral File in the DOS version is much more complete than the one in FamilySearch. org.  The online one has no living people in it, no name only's, no temple ordinances, besides only being able to download 4 generations at a time.  If you are in the DOS version, find your AF number and type that into the online version and see what you get.  It will say, that AFN doesn't exist.  We have the old DOS version on the computers in our Hyde Park Family History Centre for those reasons.  It would be nice to have a "stand-alone" Windows version of it, but we need the old DOS version for the Scottish Vital Records database anyway, so we have them both on all of our computers.  BTW, there are over 600 microfilms of the hard copy notes and sources for data in the AF if it was sent in on hard copy, which all of it was for the first few years.  Most people aren't aware of that.  I have a set of notes with all the details on http://uvpafug. org under Class Outlines, Don's Listings, and just recently gave a talk about the AF and the PRF here at the Hyde Park FHC.  Our talks are all listed on our website http://www.hydepark fhc.org under Events.  I've got links there to the notes we've written, too.  I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources and notes in it if they were sent in.

                Elder Snow


                At 11:43 PM 1/30/2008, gtempleman1@ comcast.net wrote:

                Ancestral File is part of the old DOS FamilySearch program and has nothing to do with Temple Ready, with the exception that the old TempleReady (DOS) was also a menu item on the FamilySearch program. Depending on how your center is set up, the FS program will access AF off of a server or the CD's.
                 
                An important question is *why* the consultant wants to access the collection at the center. All of the same information is online. The main advantage of the FHC version is the potential ability to download multiple generations, but given the poor quality and unverified nature of the AF information I have really tried to discourage people from dooing that.
                 
                And of course, all of the AF data is part of the new FamilySearch, so will be accesible when your temple district is switching over.
                 
                Gary Templeman
                 
                ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
                From: "diverdoc4md" <diverdoc4md@ yahoo.com>

                > I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to
                > access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure
                > how to access them since the latest version of Temple Ready does not
                > show access to AF.
                >
                >
                >
                > Home Page: http://fhctech. org/
                > Community email addresses:
                > Post message: fhctech@yahoogroups .com
                > Subscribe: fhctech-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com
                > Unsubscribe: fhctech-unsubscribe @yahoogroups. com
                > List owner: Rick@Klemetson. com
                > Shortcut URL to Yahoo! group page:
                > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/fhctech
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://group s.yahoo.com/ group/fhctech/
                >
                > <*> Your email settings:
                > Individual Email | Traditional
                >
                > <*> To change settings online go to:
                > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/fhctech/ join
                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
                > <*> To change settings via email:
                > mailto:fhctech- digest@yahoogrou ps.com
                > mailto:fhctech- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > fhctech-unsubscribe @yahoogroups. com
                >
                > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                > http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/
                >


                Elder Donald R. Snow, England London Mission
                Hyde Park Family History Centre, http://www.hydepark fhc.org
                Retired Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; snowd@.... edu

              • Alan Whitcomb
                Might I suggest that your FHC Directors request a free copy of PRF Magnet from Ohana Software? This program will allow you to look at the PRF Data by family
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Might I suggest that your FHC Directors request a free copy of PRF Magnet from Ohana Software?

                  This program will allow you to look at the PRF Data by family tree, and you can view/download multiple generations at the same time. 

                  A few patrons at our FHC have found success with it.

                  Alan
                  FHC Pamplona, Spain




                  On Jan 31, 2008 1:53 AM, Russell Hltn <RussellHltn@...> wrote:

                  On Jan 30, 2008 2:46 PM, Snow, Donald R. <snowd@...> wrote:
                  > I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources
                  > and notes in it if they were sent in.

                  Post an example and I or someone else will tell you what nFS contains.
                  I'm not sure if we can lookup by AFN or not, so some details would be
                  nice.

                • Iowa Ribbon/Duncan
                  THANK YOU ... From: Snow, Donald R. To: fhctech@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD s Which
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 30, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    THANK YOU
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:06 PM
                    Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD's

                    Which CD's, Linda?  The ones mentioned on www.hydeparkfhc. org are all available from the Church Distribution Centres.  If those are the ones you mean, most of those have been out for years, so the Birmingham Distribution Centre here in the UK is selling them out.  In the U.S. look on www.familysearch. org under Products.  Are those the ones you mean?

                    Elder Snow


                    At 02:41 AM 1/31/2008, you wrote:

                    "FAMILY HISTORY PRODUCTS AVAILABLE ON CD" are these available to all members?  I am in the US and didn't know these CD's yu mention on your website were available.
                    Linda
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Snow, Donald R.
                    To: fhctech@yahoogroups .com
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:46 PM
                    Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD's

                    Gary, the Ancestral File in the DOS version is much more complete than the one in FamilySearch. org.  The online one has no living people in it, no name only's, no temple ordinances, besides only being able to download 4 generations at a time.  If you are in the DOS version, find your AF number and type that into the online version and see what you get.  It will say, that AFN doesn't exist.  We have the old DOS version on the computers in our Hyde Park Family History Centre for those reasons.  It would be nice to have a "stand-alone" Windows version of it, but we need the old DOS version for the Scottish Vital Records database anyway, so we have them both on all of our computers.  BTW, there are over 600 microfilms of the hard copy notes and sources for data in the AF if it was sent in on hard copy, which all of it was for the first few years.  Most people aren't aware of that.  I have a set of notes with all the details on http://uvpafug. org under Class Outlines, Don's Listings, and just recently gave a talk about the AF and the PRF here at the Hyde Park FHC.  Our talks are all listed on our website http://www.hydepark fhc.org under Events.  I've got links there to the notes we've written, too.  I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources and notes in it if they were sent in.

                    Elder Snow


                    At 11:43 PM 1/30/2008, gtempleman1@ comcast.net wrote:

                    Ancestral File is part of the old DOS FamilySearch program and has nothing to do with Temple Ready, with the exception that the old TempleReady (DOS) was also a menu item on the FamilySearch program. Depending on how your center is set up, the FS program will access AF off of a server or the CD's.

                     
                    An important question is *why* the consultant wants to access the collection at the center. All of the same information is online. The main advantage of the FHC version is the potential ability to download multiple generations, but given the poor quality and unverified nature of the AF information I have really tried to discourage people from dooing that.

                     
                    And of course, all of the AF data is part of the new FamilySearch, so will be accesible when your temple district is switching over.

                     
                    Gary Templeman
                     
                    ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
                    From: "diverdoc4md" <diverdoc4md@ yahoo.com>
                    > I am the FHC Director. One of my Family History Consultants wants to
                    > access the collection of Ancestral files in the Center. I am not sure
                    > how to access them since the latest version of Temple Ready does not
                    > show access to AF.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Home Page: http://fhctech. org/
                    > Community email addresses:
                    > Post message: fhctech@yahoogroups .com
                    > Subscribe: fhctech-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Unsubscribe: fhctech-unsubscribe @yahoogroups. com
                    > List owner: Rick@Klemetson. com
                    > Shortcut URL to Yahoo! group page:
                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/fhctech
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://group s.yahoo.com/ group/fhctech/
                    >
                    > <*> Your email settings:
                    > Individual Email | Traditional
                    >
                    > <*> To change settings online go to:
                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/fhctech/ join
                    > (Yahoo! ID required)
                    >
                    > <*> To change settings via email:
                    > mailto:fhctech- digest@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > mailto:fhctech- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
                    >
                    > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > fhctech-unsubscribe @yahoogroups. com
                    >
                    > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/
                    >

                    Elder Donald R. Snow, England London Mission
                    Hyde Park Family History Centre, http://www.hydepark fhc.org
                    Retired Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; snowd@.... edu


                    Elder Donald R. Snow, England London Mission
                    Hyde Park Family History Centre, http://www.hydepark fhc.org
                    Retired Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; snowd@.... edu

                • Gary Templeman
                  ... From: Snow, Donald R. To: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files
                  Message 9 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Snow, Donald R." <snowd@...>
                    To: <fhctech@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:46 PM
                    Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD's


                    > Gary, the Ancestral File in the DOS version is much more complete
                    > than the one in FamilySearch.org. The online one has no living
                    > people in it, no name only's, no temple ordinances, besides only
                    > being able to download 4 generations at a time.

                    EXACTLY.!! I think it is probably good to not have living people online. But
                    beyond that, the biggest problem I see with the AF at FHCs is that people
                    can go in and download 13 (or up to 99 if configured properly on a server)
                    generations at one time. Then, without ANY real research turn around and run
                    that list through TR. That is not appropriate. Restricting to 4 generations
                    at a time makes it lots more difficult to simply harvest names. And we need
                    to remember that any temple information contained on those CDs is not
                    necessarily verified. (Note: I forgot that the online version didn't have
                    temple data) For that reason it may actually be better that the ordinance
                    information is stripped out from the online version, so that one, access to
                    it is better restricted to only Church members (like the IIGI and nFS), and
                    that two, any names people do incorporate into their data from the AF get
                    cross-checked with the IIGI or nFS.

                    I do agree that there is value in the DOS version, which is why my original
                    question was *why* the consultant wanted to use it. We certainly have not
                    removed it from our server because of the additional features and
                    information the CDs have. That said, because there is also more potential
                    for abuse it is important that those using the DOS AF be taught how to use
                    it as a clue or guide for additional research and not simply download
                    hundreds of names. If the consultant needs the CD version to get more of the
                    unique data available that is fine. If it is to do a mass download and run
                    through TR, it is not so fine.

                    Gary Templeman
                  • Gary Templeman
                    PRF Magnet, while a good program, does nothing to facilitate access to AF data however. Gary Templeman ... From: Alan Whitcomb To:
                    Message 10 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      PRF Magnet, while a good program, does nothing to facilitate access to AF
                      data however.

                      Gary Templeman

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Alan Whitcomb" <alan.whitcomb@...>
                      To: <fhctech@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:15 PM
                      Subject: Re: [fhctech] Ancestral Files CD's


                      > Might I suggest that your FHC Directors request a free copy of PRF Magnet
                      > from Ohana Software?
                      >
                      > This program will allow you to look at the PRF Data by family tree, and
                      > you
                      > can view/download multiple generations at the same time.
                      >
                      > A few patrons at our FHC have found success with it.
                      >
                      > Alan
                      > FHC Pamplona, Spain
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Jan 31, 2008 1:53 AM, Russell Hltn <RussellHltn@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Jan 30, 2008 2:46 PM, Snow, Donald R.
                      > <snowd@...<snowd%40math.byu.edu>>
                      >> wrote:
                      >> > I wonder if the AF in New FamilySearch has the sources
                      >> > and notes in it if they were sent in.
                      >>
                      >> Post an example and I or someone else will tell you what nFS contains.
                      >> I'm not sure if we can lookup by AFN or not, so some details would be
                      >> nice.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
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